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I just tried dicking around with creating a character at 320 BP and capping availability at 10 - I still got a broken samurai monster with staggering dice pools. What am I doing wrong, here?
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Dec 11, 2013 20:32
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Tias posted:I just tried dicking around with creating a character at 320 BP and capping availability at 10 - I still got a broken samurai monster with staggering dice pools. What am I doing wrong, here? Hard to know unless you post it!
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Dec 11, 2013 21:52
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Karmagen (and maybe giving out a hundred fewer karmagen points) is way better at bringing down huge dice pool specialization than just giving out less BP, just due to how the different methods work. Take two equal street samurai, one BP-built and one Karma-built (you won't get the exact same numbers in reality, but just for argument's sake). Now tell their players to cut 10% of their resources. Karmagen guy is going to go "well I can drop my strength from 9 to 7 and save a bunch of points there, and maybe a point off my weapons skills and still fit it in. BP guy is going to go "gently caress it, I'll drop my rank 1 talking skills, and my driving ability, and drop logic to 1 and buy it up later, it'll be cheaper that way."
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Dec 11, 2013 22:04
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SolTerrasa posted:Hard to know unless you post it! I'm not implying I did something wrong during chargen, just that the end result is still too powerful for my liking. Piell posted:Karmagen (and maybe giving out a hundred fewer karmagen points) is way better at bringing down huge dice pool specialization than just giving out less BP, just due to how the different methods work. Take two equal street samurai, one BP-built and one Karma-built (you won't get the exact same numbers in reality, but just for argument's sake). Now tell their players to cut 10% of their resources. Karmagen guy is going to go "well I can drop my strength from 9 to 7 and save a bunch of points there, and maybe a point off my weapons skills and still fit it in. BP guy is going to go "gently caress it, I'll drop my rank 1 talking skills, and my driving ability, and drop logic to 1 and buy it up later, it'll be cheaper that way." You're right, I've thunk it over and it's more because I've never used karmagen before and it seems intimidating.. I'll give it a shot!
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Dec 12, 2013 08:50
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I still got a horribly overpowered character at 750 karma/12av, an orc samurai with all relevants stats at 5 without augmentations, 250K worth of gear, firearms/close combat groups at 3 and a fuckton of other skills and specializations. Something has to go. Anyone have experience with using the priorities system in 4E?
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Dec 12, 2013 15:47
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Tias posted:I still got a horribly overpowered character at 750 karma/12av, an orc samurai with all relevants stats at 5 without augmentations, 250K worth of gear, firearms/close combat groups at 3 and a fuckton of other skills and specializations. Something has to go. ...Man, a dice pool of 8 in your main focus is pretty far from overpowered.
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Dec 12, 2013 15:59
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Tias posted:I still got a horribly overpowered character at 750 karma/12av, an orc samurai with all relevants stats at 5 without augmentations, 250K worth of gear, firearms/close combat groups at 3 and a fuckton of other skills and specializations. Something has to go. Yeah that's actually a pretty terrible character you've built there. An "optimized" street samurai is going to have literally twice your combat dice. Piell fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Dec 12, 2013 |
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Dec 12, 2013 16:07
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I didn't bother with going into buying gear, but the appropriate augmentations can easily jack it up.
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Dec 12, 2013 16:08
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Even with augmentation you're looking at around 12 dice for combat, which is pretty average for PCs, not "overpowered". Edit: For example, the Professional Rating 4 Triad Lieutenant in the 20th anniversary book is probably supposed to be a roughly equivalent match for a PC street samurai and has 11 dice in close combat. Piell fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Dec 12, 2013 |
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Dec 12, 2013 16:11
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Then the NPCs in RAW really suck. As said, I'm looking for a do's and don'ts when running 4E. It would appear I'm unaware of how to balance encounters.
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Dec 12, 2013 16:14
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From the 20th anniversary bookquote:Untrained (Professional Rating 0): The grunts in this group are untrained and unfamiliar with combat situations. They tend to react clumsily, slowly, and without a plan. If more than a quarter of the group members are removed from the combat, the group will fee in panic. Examples: Street mobs, rent-a-cops. PC's seem to fit rather clearly into PR3 to PR5 categories, and looking at the NPC dice pools I'd say that's accurate. A typical dice pool for a highly specialized character can be approaching 20, though 12 dice is a pretty good benchmark for "these are things I am good at". Piell fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Dec 12, 2013 |
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Dec 12, 2013 16:18
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Tias posted:I still got a horribly overpowered character at 750 karma/12av, an orc samurai with all relevants stats at 5 without augmentations, 250K worth of gear, firearms/close combat groups at 3 and a fuckton of other skills and specializations. Something has to go. You can easily "break" 4E character gen with either BP or Karma, but the point of the Karma system is to allow for a lot of smaller skills/less stuff maxed out because you aren't "wasting" any points on your decisions like you do with BP. True min-max monsters are usually made with BP since they generally softmax attributes (think high Bod/Str Troll with a bunch of dumpstats) and get as many skills as softmax level as possible, and do all sorts of crunchy foci bonding and ware optimization. Karma is more suited to characters who are better rounded than Punchtroll/focimage since the costs to raise attributes and skills are the same as in-game, and thus quickly get out of hand at higher levels (4+).
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Dec 12, 2013 22:42
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Thanks for the rundown, I think I'm getting the hang of this  How about the matrix rules? Would I better off revamping the rules, or using some other system? 'cause frankly, 4E wireless rules are hell.
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Dec 12, 2013 22:47
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Doesn't karmagen really screw over trolls? Or do you apply the troll stats after raising them so you can reach average troll strength without spending half of your starting karma?
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Dec 13, 2013 00:02
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Poil posted:Doesn't karmagen really screw over trolls? Or do you apply the troll stats after raising them so you can reach average troll strength without spending half of your starting karma? Karmagen absolutely fucks trolls (and orks if you want to softmax).
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Dec 13, 2013 01:40
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It's always been the height of dumb that racial modifications are added before everything else rather then at the end.
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Dec 13, 2013 02:09
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Can you offset it? Give them some karma for attributes only or whatever?
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Dec 13, 2013 09:59
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Tias posted:Can you offset it? Give them some karma for attributes only or whatever? Quick and dirty houserule is to apply racials after spending Karma. So, getting an Elf with 5 Agility costs the same as a Human with 4. I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it 'balanced', but...
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Dec 13, 2013 10:17
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Hey, in case there's still some people sticking around in 4th edition - I need help clarifying some matrix rules. I aim to move to a more simplified way of doing matrix stuff, but first I want to understand the basics. The descriptions of matrix perception in the anniversary book really has me puzzled. What can a hacker see when he enters a node? Is it a free action to get a list of active icons in the node, or does he have to take a simple action to analyze it? (As far as I read it, analyzing a node can't tell you who is it in, only attributes of the node directly, like in the black box on page 228. Furthermore, what action is required to notice icons entering or leaving the node once you have looked around and started working? When you go from one node to another, do you leave a persona in each of the nodes (as a trail/chain of sorts?), or do you just leave an intangiable 'trace' after you?
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Apr 3, 2014 14:58
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We're here. Waiting. On the bleeding edge  Unfortunately I've lent my rulebook out, but I'll try to see if I can't jumpstart the old head.. When you enter the Node, you can see any running programs that the node is programmed to show your subscription - some may be visible to guest accounts, others only to user accounts, and others still only to admin accounts. Example: A bank will let guests access their advertisements and set up appointments with an agent, VR tours, the works. User accounts (for employees) will be able to access the various accounts, set up new ones or close others, and have access to work schedules, etc. - and the admin account will have complete authority over the bank security systems and the ability to trace all bank RFIDs, stuff like that. If I recall correctly, you will have to use Analyze to detect node "traits" (which is things like if the node is alert or not, who are subscribed to it, and, yes, what kind of programs are running inside of it). As for other users, you will automatically be able to see other users with an active commlink. If they are running hidden or use Stealth programs, that's when you bust out Analyze and Track. Hope this helps, I'll be glad to pore over the books for you if you're still lost.
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Apr 3, 2014 21:38
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I've been bugged for a while by SR having two distinct, mostly incompatible methods of (mechanical) character advancement. Those being Money and Karma. Typically a character in SR doesn't care about one and is desperate for the other. My idea is to disengage all permanent character advancement/enhancement from nuyen and bind it to karma. I haven't thought it through much, but I think it could work out and make party balance easier to maintain. • Cyberarm? It's fluff for that +2 STR you payed karma for. • Your bare-handed attacks to lethal damage? Pay number. You gonna explain it with cyber-spurs, ki-strikes or "I'm just really good at turning anything into a shiv"? • Your gun's Damage? Just another stat. You could cash that in to re-shuffle the points around in Damage/Rate of Fire/clip size/misc bonuses. • Thermal vision? Doesn't matter if your a sammie or adept, they cost and balance out the same.  "Ok, so in this communist distopia where all characters are equal, why would any player or character want money."Well, other than in-character greed and not wanting to live in a box behind Denny's, you can tie it to temporary mechanical boosts. • Combat Foci that will burn out or materials for summoning that Force 5 • Grenades! Grenades for everybody! •Bribing wage-slaves to leave that loading dock unlocked. • A couple clips of armor piercing/exploding ammo.  All the drugs! The more I think about it, the more I wonder why this isn't t already an option. Is there something stupid to this idea I'm not seeing? I'll play around with some numbers and see if I can get this to work... maybe. I'm starting a new job so we'll see how much "cyber-elf storygames" time I have left over. While typing this I randomly had the mental image of a troll security cheif yelling at the team...  "I'm gonna tear out my liver and shove it down yer throat so all the bad moonshine I've drunk can kill you too!"Just wanted to share.
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Apr 18, 2014 07:48
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Yes, we're all richer for liver-throatfucking stories! I don't know, this criticism has been raised a thousand times, and still plagues the official forums and our own 5th edition thread. I always felt, as a player and a GM, that one should just ignore the mechanics and go for what feels right - in my group I can rely on player and GM goodwill to build characters and stories that are entertaining instead of working within the, admittedly skewed, power mechanics.
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Apr 18, 2014 08:58
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Thanks muchly. I still have questions about the world of hacking, though. Can a hacker just pinpoint the nodes that he can see (within his signal range) by default or does he need to use track or something similar? It's a bit anticlimatic for him to just pinpoint the baddie that they're hunting from the safety of the car, when the others are out in the field and looking for him. Also! One of the players brought this up to me, saying that we did initiative all wrong. Do you roll initiative with EVERY new round? (excluding passes). That seems unnecessarily cubersome, but I guess that's what the rules really say, since they mention going through step 1-6 all over again.
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Apr 24, 2014 11:13
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Your average baddy will make sure to run in hidden mode, so as to not be found by a two-bit user  If your hacker is aware of the node's existence or assuming it is nearby, he can Detect Hidden Node, a complex action with Electronic Warfare + Scan (4). If you are just making a swee for hidden nodes (within mutual signal range) you can make an extended test instead, EWarfare + Scan (15, interval 1 combat round). If a commlink is actually running active, anyone can see and interact with it and its node, if in passive, it can be seen but not interacted with without hacking it.
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Apr 24, 2014 11:31
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Alright. If he's found it once, though, it's basically out in the open forever, or until...? I still have some reservation about just letting it be detected if it's running active or passive - when the hacker is scanning from the middle of downtown (and possibly up into a skyscraper), there's a whole TON of commlinks to sort through. In our case, he didn't actually have any visual confirmation, since he was back in the van, though I let him figure out which was which by giving the two baddies's commlinks pretty obvious names. I don't recall if I made him roll scan to pinpoint them, but it seems to me that there should be *some* skill check involved. 1 combat round to scan, is that the whole X number of passes, or is it supposed to be a simple or complex action? In addition! Do you guys have any pointers to how much cash to reward the players with? They've been getting 4-5 karma per run, but I'm really not sure how much nuyen to reward them with. Been giving out about 5-8000 per run so far, but I figure I have to dial that up drastically. Aeble fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 14:20
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Aeble posted:Also! One of the players brought this up to me, saying that we did initiative all wrong. Do you roll initiative with EVERY new round? (excluding passes). That seems unnecessarily cubersome, but I guess that's what the rules really say, since they mention going through step 1-6 all over again. It does indeed say that, never noticed before. I'm pretty sure it's an error because I've never seen anyone do it that way. I say just tell him you're making a house rule that you only roll initiative once per engagement.
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Apr 24, 2014 15:52
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Martello posted:It does indeed say that, never noticed before. I'm pretty sure it's an error because I've never seen anyone do it that way. I say just tell him you're making a house rule that you only roll initiative once per engagement. I checked, but both the quick-start rules and the anniversary edition books say to go through all steps again. Even so, I plan to just roll once anyway.
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Apr 24, 2014 15:57
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I noticed back in the day, but always ran with one roll for one combat. If I could be arsed to do it, I modified initiative for wounds, but that was it. Anyway, the rules are complex and confusing, so the best I can do is give you some options: - If you don't have a visual, and don't know where the person is hiding, you'll have to re-detect them everytime you break subscription with the node. - Scans are complex action, extended scan for all hidden nodes are an extended test. - If you catch the baddie inside a node, use a trace to find their physical location: Computer + Track extended test (10), interval one complex action. The money, that depends. Here's my own completely arbitrary ruleset: Killing a specific person: at least 10,000 per head, depending on importance and security. Break and Enter: 6,000 Data theft in secure facility: +2000 per man. Destruction: 5000 and up, depending on target size and security. Certainty of combat/danger pay: +5000 per man. Extraction/Kidnapping: 10,000. Theft: Depending on importance, probably at least 4000. Factors: Characters are being tricked into a set-up: Probably offered more than the job is worth. Characters are being hired by the poor, needy and downtrodden: -50% of payout or more, may be offered goods, contacts or services instead. Group is expected to maintain strict secrecy, working for high-end black dept or syndicate leadership for example: +25% and up.
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Apr 24, 2014 20:33
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Thanks for all the tips, Tias. Do you know anything about slaved nodes? I'm at the point where I think I have to use them a lot, since the hacker has such a high stealth that nobody notices him (except where I rule that the owner of the node is just hostile/super suspicious towards anyone entering). My idea is to slave the enemies' commlinks, but I'm unsure if the hacker can instantly find out where the commands are coming from, or how that goes. Along the same lines of my matrix/hacker woes, how do you guys handle hacking cars? It's turning out to be a bit too easy of an impromptu weapon for the hacker to hack into a car and just ram in into enemies on the street. I figure some cars might use those keys that need to physically be in the car for it to start, but not all would be equipped like that. Aeble fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 3, 2014 21:07
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Something I'm unable to work out: How well do watcher spirits "watch"? Can they see people approaching in realspace? (I'm ruling yes, since all life is visible on the astral to the astrally perceiving). More importantly, how far does their vision extend, and how well do they see through obstructions, magical and non-magical?Aeble posted:Thanks for all the tips, Tias. Do you know anything about slaved nodes? I'm at the point where I think I have to use them a lot, since the hacker has such a high stealth that nobody notices him (except where I rule that the owner of the node is just hostile/super suspicious towards anyone entering). Well, why do you want to slave them? It's a good strategy to slave all equipment to the commlink, and then have extremely high stealth. If you want to challenge this hacker of yours, just have the people he hacks accompanied by high-end IC Agents and dedicated security hackers. If he's that good, he can take jobs that involve proper opsec. I think most expensive cars should have a biometric locks that only the owner can open, proper hardened doors and then mechanical ignition on the inside. It is then the owners own choice wether to also enable wireless control. Another option is jobs in the most run-down places around (I prefer Sarajevo a lot), where cars are last-century diehard shitboxes that require *gasp* first-generation mechanical keys and subsequent hotwiring, which a modern thief may actually experience penalties doing, seeing as modern cars now use optical phasing and wireless procedures and whatnot. The most vulnerable cars, in my opinion, are the cars "in between" with older matrix security, and I too have had a lot of trouble with players using them as cash cows and impromptu rams/VBIEDs (see my posts in this thread for players trying to carbomb NYPD Inc. and failing hilariously). My improvised solution is that anti-theft and law enforcement with regards to cars have increased heavily in 2072. Sentences are extreme, media corps stigmatize carjackers and whip up lynch sentiment, and LEO carry car-tailored EMPs and pursue ongoing theft bulletins with extreme prejudice. Tias fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Jul 21, 2014 |
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Jul 21, 2014 15:50
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Tias posted:I think most expensive cars should have a biometric locks that only the owner can open, proper hardened doors and then mechanical ignition on the inside. It is then the owners own choice wether to also enable wireless control. Another option is jobs in the most run-down places around (I prefer Sarajevo a lot), where cars are last-century diehard shitboxes that require *gasp* first-generation mechanical keys and subsequent hotwiring, which a modern thief may actually experience penalties doing, seeing as modern cars now use optical phasing and wireless procedures and whatnot. Alternately, there's these things called bollards...  They're an old-school site security device. They stand about a meter high, made of solid steel or concrete, extend about two meters into the ground to secure them, weight about a ton each and relatively inexpensive. If you drive around around downtown, you'll notice them or giant planter bunkers or sometimes even giant loving walls that serve as containment for security gardens. They're designed to keep vehicles from being driven into buildings. The idea is that they're spaced out for foot traffic but placed relatively close together that it's impossible for a car to get through them without wrecking itself. For instance, most government buildings will have these hunks of concrete and steel positioned about 100m away from the building to prevent car bombs and people trying to ram into the building. Most commercial buildings like malls might only have them stationed at entry ways, so you don't go There's also clever ways to prevent unsolicited traffic, like raising the site grounds a meter off the ground from the sidewalk and road pavement and providing ramps into the building (with bollards securing the entry) so you're not surrounding your building with these conspicuous looking metal and concrete pillars.
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Jul 30, 2014 00:31
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I didn't know what they were called, but I love those things! My corpfacs always include retractable tungsten pillars with RFID goo sprayers  They still don't do a lot to prevent carjacking, though :/
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Jul 30, 2014 11:01
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Tias posted:I didn't know what they were called, but I love those things! My corpfacs always include retractable tungsten pillars with RFID goo sprayers Yeah, but they tend to neutralize the effectiveness of hijacked cars by forcing adversaries on foot. I just remembered that there's an office park around here that has a drainage ditch/lake setup, so even stuff like moats can make a comeback when it comes to site security.
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Jul 31, 2014 23:00
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Quote is not post, but:Tias posted:Something I'm unable to work out: How well do watcher spirits "watch"? Can they see people approaching in realspace? (I'm ruling yes, since all life is visible on the astral to the astrally perceiving). More importantly, how far does their vision extend, and how well do they see through obstructions, magical and non-magical? I'm thinking if they're force 1, so INT 1 and no Perception, they must be nearly blind unless something living brushes by them? Or what?
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Aug 1, 2014 15:44
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Edit: Wrong thread, never mind!
Sulphagnist fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Aug 3, 2014 |
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Aug 3, 2014 00:20
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