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Discendo Vox posted:Eastern Europe: We know squat Katlington posted:Eastern Europe: Imagine 4 spheres of influence on the edge of a cliff. LucyHeartfilia posted:Eastern Europe: This is not a thread about Eastern Europe Or "Putin's Slavic Squat on the EU's face". One of these four. It has to be.
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Sep 4, 2014 11:40
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Updates: UA withdrawal from Debal'tseve, forward salient between Luhansk and Horlivka. Heavy fighting in Shyrokyne, on the road east of Mariupol 68 destroyed vehicles on the road from Ilovaish (pocket), by Russian arty (UA losses) Things look to be heating up again. Not clear on who is attacking Shyrokyne, UA said something about establishing defense line further out from Mariupol awhile back, but the Russians could have gotten there first. Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 11:57 on Sep 4, 2014 |
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Sep 4, 2014 11:53
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Eastern Europe: Sometimes You Eat The Bear, Sometimes The Bear Eats You
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Sep 4, 2014 12:05
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Pimpmust posted:Oh, funny thing but I watched a german documentary of some reporters inbedded with a volunteer battalion from the 24th of August (Cherson battalion?) and one of the Ukrainian soldiers there used a laminated copy of the "official" UA map as his apparent tactical map If its a volunteer force, it stands to reason it hasn't the giant stash of detailed local maps available a regular military has. But it's still weird, considering you could use actual satellite information from google maps for your tactical maps in this day and age. Making your own custom maps and printing them out should be pretty easy, too. I've done it myself a few times.
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Sep 4, 2014 12:08
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pigdog posted:Look, at the very least, the Baltic countries themselves are tight and united in countering the Russian threat. Doesn't matter how many nukes the Russians have; if Latvia say were attacked, then Estonia and Lithuania will help with anything they got. The three countries (+ some others) would definitely have a military alliance of this sort, even purely militarily it would not make sense not to. Except in actuality they're all in NATO, so not only do they have that kind of alliance between themselves, but with all of NATO countries. I don't know if US will be left cowering and contemplating and dragging its feet, but the Baltic states themselves sure won't, and every day that they spend fighting without US support would be a day to remind the whole world that the Americans, with all their military might, are the biggest pussies in the world and take Russian dicks on their chin by choice. Most important among those some others would be Poland, which is actually a decently important country in NATO and the EU. No way the Germans can shrug off Poland getting into a full blown war with Russia, no matter how much they want to.
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Sep 4, 2014 12:28
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Pimpmust posted:Things look to be heating up again. Not clear on who is attacking Shyrokyne, UA said something about establishing defense line further out from Mariupol awhile back, but the Russians could have gotten there first. I mean, I'm no Patton or anything, so what do I know!
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Sep 4, 2014 12:40
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Randandal posted:Sweden wtf Non-conscript army. You can enjoy lattes in Stockholm while they send wave after wave of former nazis to die in the Baltic.
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Sep 4, 2014 12:41
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Charlz Guybon posted:Most important among those some others would be Poland, which is actually a decently important country in NATO and the EU. No way the Germans can shrug off Poland getting into a full blown war with Russia, no matter how much they want to. People always forget about Poland.
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Sep 4, 2014 12:42
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tooterfish posted:Maybe they should stop loving tweeting their strategic objectives? Maybe thats why the livefeed has been so quiet on battle updates lately, for all we know there's constant fighting in a number of places but if we don't get it on YouTube or twitter there could just as well be no war on at all  E: speaking of which, updates: 20 Russian tanks are assaulting shyrokyne. Vehicle destroyed in ambush on route H20, near berezove, DNR checkpoint hit by GRADs UA retreating way up northeast from apparent rocketshelling, starobilsk(?!) Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 12:57 on Sep 4, 2014 |
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Sep 4, 2014 12:49
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Libluini posted:If its a volunteer force, it stands to reason it hasn't the giant stash of detailed local maps available a regular military has. But it's still weird, considering you could use actual satellite information from google maps for your tactical maps in this day and age. Making your own custom maps and printing them out should be pretty easy, too. I've done it myself a few times. I am pretty sure his point is they were using a propaganda map that has completely untrue information on it.
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Sep 4, 2014 12:51
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Or they could just be trapped in print queue hell. It happens to me sometimes and I'm not even a plucky upstart guerilla with absolutely no Russian military support.
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Sep 4, 2014 12:56
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Michael Peck, loving moron posted:It seems more likely that the new force will include light infantry, wheeled armor and special forces—all easier to move by air or road than heavy tanks. While these light troops might have a fighting chance against irregular troops such as Ukraine’s eastern rebels, they wouldn’t stand a chance against a Russian tank regiment. Yes, Russia will role over a NATO wheeled armor and special forces DIVISION sized element with uncontested air support while NATO sits around playing with its dick. Is this idiot for real? It doesn't matter whether NATO has heavy armor or loving Warrior IFVs, regular Russian units engaging them will be tantamount to declaring WWIII, in which NATO will have every advantage unless it turns nuclear. Geopolitical concerns aside, it's a rapid reaction force. It's supposed to deploy to a conflict zone within 48 hours. Of course it doesn't loving include heavy tanks! This guy's analysis is completely wrong. The reason NATO has existed for 50 years is Russian aggression in Europe, and its mandate is getting stronger by the day. Who cares what exactly it decides to include in its rapid reaction force? NATO is 3 nuclear powers, 900 million people, and 70% of world defense budget. It will absolutely crush anyone else IN THE WORLD in a conventional conflict. The main concern in any NATO conflict with Russia is that Russia will lose so badly that they have no choice but to turn to nuclear deterrence. "Ultimately, this new NATO force would be little more than a speed bump should Russia mobilize even a fraction of its nearly three million active and reserve troops." This guy's a loving moron. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Sep 4, 2014 |
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Sep 4, 2014 13:10
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/04/mh17-crash-investigation-report-preliminary-findings Looks like we get the prelim report next week, a pity the animals that shot down the plane will probably never face justice and more likely get a medal from Russia.
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Sep 4, 2014 13:20
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Randandal posted:Sweden wtf There's a historical reason for that.
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Sep 4, 2014 13:47
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Majorian posted:It's a little more complicated than you're portraying it, though. Vice, surprisingly, had a good piece on it a couple months ago: Can't he sell them the ships to someone else? Surely there's a market out there for them. India for instance has been greatly expanding their navy of late.
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Sep 4, 2014 14:00
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Niedar posted:I am pretty sure his point is they were using a propaganda map that has completely untrue information on it. Well, nice to know you are able to read, but was there a point to your post other than restating the obvious? Arglebargle III posted:Yes, Russia will role over a NATO wheeled armor and special forces DIVISION sized element with uncontested air support while NATO sits around playing with its dick. Is this idiot for real? It doesn't matter whether NATO has heavy armor or loving Warrior IFVs, regular Russian units engaging them will be tantamount to declaring WWIII, in which NATO will have every advantage unless it turns nuclear. Geopolitical concerns aside, it's a rapid reaction force. It's supposed to deploy to a conflict zone within 48 hours. Of course it doesn't loving include heavy tanks! What is often overlooked in this ongoing conflict, Russia has apparently doubled down on conventional warfare, while the USA has heavily invested in automated warfare (drones). If I remember the one time were drones were used against an actual army (destroying Gaddhafi's artillery hidden inside the capital with precision drone strikes), I'm a lot more confident NATO could held its own in a localized conflict with conventional weapons. Since we Europeans kind of limp behind on the drone front, we would essentially hold the line with our own troops while American drones oversaturate/neutralize Russian air defence, then our own air forces would just go to town until the Russian ground forces are annihilated. Hopefully this prediction of mine is wrong or never in danger of getting relevant, since a catastrophic defeat of that magnitude would indeed only leave the nuclear option. Mind you, I think the Russian military is still rather strong, but it is only strong against a similar, but weaker force. Combat against a comparable Western force supplemented with drones would end in unmitigated disaster.
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Sep 4, 2014 14:02
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Libluini posted:while the USA has heavily invested in automated warfare (drones). . . Since we Europeans kind of limp behind on the drone front Oh, so you're an idiot too. Go look up the price of a Predator.
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Sep 4, 2014 14:07
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I don't know why you think drones are a decisive force in conventional warfare against an opponent with actual air defense and that we've somehow given up on conventional capability.
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Sep 4, 2014 14:09
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Charlz Guybon posted:Most important among those some others would be Poland, which is actually a decently important country in NATO and the EU. No way the Germans can shrug off Poland getting into a full blown war with Russia, no matter how much they want to. why do you go on and on about Germany shrugging of some hypothetical attack, when Germany is only behind Poland and Sweden in willingness to have a conflict with Russia? Start being worried about Italy, France, Spain and Greece instead.
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Sep 4, 2014 14:09
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Boner Slam posted:why do you go on and on about Germany shrugging of some hypothetical attack, when Germany is only behind Poland and Sweden in willingness to have a conflict with Russia? On and on? Are you mistaking me for someone else? They're the most important country in the EU. Of course people are going to focus on them.
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Sep 4, 2014 14:23
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Arglebargle III posted:Oh, so you're an idiot too. Go look up the price of a Predator. Looks like 17 million dollar, which means you get about 8-9 for the price of a F-35. Arguably more, since you only need an operator for every 50+ drones, so you don't need an operator for every drone, but you'll need a pilot for every F-35. Besides, not every drone is a Predator. The Heron for example costs only 10 million dollars and EADS promises they can arm them if necessary. And since the Heron alone can rise higher then MANPADs could reach them, they aren't easy targets for air defense. And as the fighting in Tripolis has proven, drones are accurate enough to literally pick out weapon systems hiding in civilian areas. With a lot less collateral damage than the conventional fighter bombers would make in their runs. Libluini fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Sep 4, 2014 |
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Sep 4, 2014 14:33
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Some people are reporting that the assault on Mariupol has begun http://www.bbc.co.uk/ukrainian/news_in_brief/2014/09/140904_vc_mariupol_attack.shtml https://twitter.com/KabanPoltinnik/status/507488593317609472 https://twitter.com/Hightown99/status/507485841128947712 https://twitter.com/GZhygalov/status/507497583405981697 Live cam in Mariupol: http://webcam.guru.ua/city/Mariupol/ e:Simon Ostrovsky confirms shelling has begun https://twitter.com/SimonOstrovsky/status/507487269377175552 ass struggle fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Sep 4, 2014 |
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Sep 4, 2014 14:41
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Day after Putin offered a ceasefire? His script is becoming more and more obvious.
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Sep 4, 2014 14:48
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Looks like he wants a corridor to Crimea after all.
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Sep 4, 2014 14:50
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Arglebargle III posted:Day after Putin offered a ceasefire? His script is becoming more and more obvious. "I wanted to stop, but you MADE me keep hitting you!"
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Sep 4, 2014 14:50
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Libluini posted:Looks like 17 million dollar, which means you get about 8-9 for the price of a F-35. Arguably more, since you only need an operator for every 50+ drones, so you don't need an operator for every drone, but you'll need a pilot for every F-35. The point is that A) drones do not require much investment and B) they are not capable of operating in an air defense environment. Flying above MANPAD range means nothing against Russian regular units which have very capable long-range AA missile systems. A Russian AA system (Ukraine says all their BuKs are accounted for) shot down an airliner at 35,000 feet not too long ago if you don't recall. I'm not sure why this is important in the first place. As far as I can tell Europe's modern fighter fleet slightly outnumbers Russia's modern fighter fleet, and the US tips the balance in NATO's favor. And that's if you count the Su-27 as modern but not the F/A-18 or F-16 or Eurofighter Tornado. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Sep 4, 2014 |
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Sep 4, 2014 14:58
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Russian soldier dies in Ukraine because "there was no other job".quote:Anton Tumanov, 20, was brought home to Kozmodemyansk (Mari El Republic, Russia) in a sealed coffin. Survivors recall Ilovaisk massacre. quote:Early on Aug. 29, a column of some 70 Ukrainian armored vehicles rushed from Ilovaisk, a city in Donetsk Oblast, through a corridor offered by Russian troops. First story is of interest since it provides evidence to earlier claims of an "insurgent convoy" that had been rocketed and suffered very high casualties back in August. Talks a bit about the general attitude of Russian soldiers who are in Donbass, but I wouldn't put much credit in that. Every man's war is different. Second article I find much more interesting. It might explain how The Ukrainian army got steamrolled out of the majority of their gains since the start of the war. Ukraine's volunteer battalions have become the best tool the Government has in their war and have been taking the brunt of the fighting since late-july. For the Ukrainians, it is of the utmost priority that they fully incorporate these volunteer battalions into Ukraine's formal military institution. Unity of command is one of those big principles of war, right up there with "Try not to attack at noon, uphill, across open ground on a bright, sunny day". The volunteers have been acting as light, motarized infantry without access to heavy weaponry. They have been relying on the Ukrainian Army's goodwill to provide artillery, tanks and aircraft and field ambulances. We have seen demonstrations by supporters of these units demanding that the government open up the armories and give the Volunteers all the "good stuff". I understand the Central government's reluctance to do so. No sensible, responsible government would give such weaponry to people who have openly spoken in the past of "marching on Kiev" if their demands are not met (I'm looking at you, Right Sector militia). Now, the Ukrainians can't afford any more gently caress ups like this because: 1) The volunteers are, once again, the best fighting force they have because they aren't lovely 18 year old conscripts who want to do their 2 years mandatory service and get out. If they keep losing scores of veteran men like they did in Ilovaisk. Ukraine's cause is doomed. 2) As long as they don't unify and coordinate their efforts, this stupid war will drag on forever*. 3) It is a recipe for disaster for the peace that will come after this war if you have large, professional fighting forces that do not answer to the State's authority. There is a reason they keep drilling in our heads that only the State should have a monopoly on violence. The sooner these battalions are incorporated into the army the better it will be for everyone. *or as long as Putin sees fit.
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Sep 4, 2014 15:05
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OhYeah posted:I wish we had more leaders in Europe with balls. It takes a lot of balls to make a speech! Its all just worthless words unless there is action (NATO bases built in the Baltics) to back it up.
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Sep 4, 2014 15:45
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Yeah Libya failed to integrate the many militias and look at it now.
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Sep 4, 2014 15:49
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Barrakketh posted:Russian soldier dies in Ukraine because "there was no other job". Meshes with that earlier update today about those 68 vehicles that got blown up when fleeing. Calls bullshit on that official UA claim that "only" 100 died in that pocket (a few days back), unless it was a translation error. As we counted earlier, 70 vehicles are the better chunk of a motorized regiment. Seems like there's been both a helicopter crash and a MiG-31 crash on the russian side of the border, probably just ordinary attrition from operating for so many hours recently. There seem to be a lot of movement and fighting just east of Mariupol, not so sure how well the Ukrainian defences are holding up against what seems to be at least an armored battalion + arty support.
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Sep 4, 2014 15:53
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| # ? Apr 23, 2024 19:18 |
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 New Thread
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Sep 4, 2014 16:20
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