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The only way to conclusively settle this matter is to make it illegal for white people to vote.
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Jun 6, 2014 03:44
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SedanChair posted:Their argument appears to be "Now we're loving over our employees in a different way. What are you going to do about it?"
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Jun 6, 2014 03:45
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vulturesrow posted:So that minimum wage increase to 15$ in SeaTac is working out well. Of course there was really no way to know what might happen. quote:Contrary to what supporters claim, increasing the minimum wage does not create jobs and stimulate the economy. The higher wages are not free money. The increased cost must either be absorbed by the employer, which is impossible for many who already operate on shoe-string profit margins, or it must be passed on to workers, in the form of reduced hours and benefits, and consumers, in the form of higher prices. Either way, someone pays. What sort of wizardry do they perform at Costco that somehow allows them to pay their employees a living wage despite the "shoe-string profit margin" from their low prices? How about Punch Pizza whose CEO decided to up their wages on a whim after states started pushing for increasing the minimum wage? How could he make such an economically disastrous decision without months of careful planning and coming up with devious alternative ways to gently caress over the workers? It's almost as if this talking point is complete and utter bullshit.
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Jun 6, 2014 03:45
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Mr Interweb posted:That may be some lovely right-wing think tank/propaganda factory, but as I said in the Dittohead thread, I really hope the wage hike won't be high enough to have any significant negative impact. Conservatives will use that to argue against any min. wage increases from now until the end of time. That would indeed be terrible. Otherwise they'd just have to cherrypick or even just fabricate evidence.
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Jun 6, 2014 03:45
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Swan Oat posted:The only way to conclusively settle this matter is to make it illegal for white people to vote. And the one drop rule suddenly raises the Native American share of the voting pool by a few orders of magnitude.
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Jun 6, 2014 03:46
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What they don't seem to realize is that they're basically arguing that the current market system is operating on the thinnest of margins and the entire house of cards is going to come crumbling down if we do anything but pay people next to nothing and funnel it all to the top. Which is pretty accurate! But we could still pay people $15/hr which is still next to nothing.
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Jun 6, 2014 03:47
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Berke Negri posted:What they don't seem to realize is that they're basically arguing that the current market system is operating on the thinnest of margins and the entire house of cards is going to come crumbling down if we do anything but pay people next to nothing and funnel it all to the top. Hey those margins are pretty loving thin. After several mortgages and the RV, there's hardly any money left for a house cleaning service or private school. Don't stop me now! I'm just about to get rich!
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Jun 6, 2014 03:50
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computer parts posted:And the one drop rule suddenly raises the Native American share of the voting pool by a few orders of magnitude. Are Natives who live on reservations allowed to vote? I assume so, but it's not like the US didn't try to gently caress over the tribes as hard as possible.
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Jun 6, 2014 03:57
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Berke Negri posted:What they don't seem to realize is that they're basically arguing that the current market system is operating on the thinnest of margins and the entire house of cards is going to come crumbling down if we do anything but pay people next to nothing and funnel it all to the top. It's accurate in some fields but not accurate for a lot of others (fast food makes enough of a margin that even if raising prices were impossible you could handle the hit). Aurubin posted:Are Natives who live on reservations allowed to vote? I assume so, but it's not like the US didn't try to gently caress over the tribes as hard as possible. They're basically covered under the Voting Rights Act so "yes, but states have tried to disenfranchise them".
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Jun 6, 2014 03:59
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Berke Negri posted:What they don't seem to realize is that they're basically arguing that the current market system is operating on the thinnest of margins and the entire house of cards is going to come crumbling down if we do anything but pay people next to nothing and funnel it all to the top. Lucky for us, the economic value of the minimum wage workers' labor has always coincidentally jumped up to the new minimum wage every time it's raised, so these mass layoffs and bankruptcies predicted by conservatives every loving time were narrowly avoided. But we just can't count on continually getting lucky in the future! Remember, markets are efficient and margins are always zero. Right now, fry cooks earn McDonald's just a hair over $7.25/hr (we know this is true because if they were worth $9 they'd be lured away by Burger King or go start their own fast food chains and keep the difference in profit so McDonald's would be paying them $9 to keep them from doing that). It's a happy coincidence that their worth is exactly equal to the minimum wage rather than staying $5.15/hr like it was in 2008 when that was the minimum wage. But if we raise it again, McDonald's will go out of business!
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Jun 6, 2014 04:03
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The stuff about suffering was specifically a point about using emotionally charged language as a substitute for reasoned discussion. quote:Bonus, no amount of proof will actually change his mind about the minimum wage, because he has What is the problem here? I'm not much of a consequentialist. And even in the part you quoted I even said that there were economic policies that would be more important to me than minimum wage. quote:Sorry, Zeitgueist First off, no matter how either side of the debate wants to paint the picture, there is plenty of evidence on each side favorable to their arguments. And again you show your willingness to slay strawmen, since I made it abundantly clear in that thread that I don't subscribe to Austrian economics.
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Jun 6, 2014 04:05
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philosophical objections
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USPol June:The only way to conclusively settle this matter is to make it illegal for white people to vote. USPol June: We're all hosed anyways. Let's all vote Republican as a joke!
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Jun 6, 2014 04:06
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vulturesrow posted:So that minimum wage increase to 15$ in SeaTac is working out well. Of course there was really no way to know what might happen. this loving article posted:Employers cannot pay a worker more than the value of their output. In other words, if an employer must pay a worker $15 per hour, they must ensure the worker produces at least that amount, or they must figure out a way to reduce the cost of that labor. So forcing employers to pay workers an artificially high wage creates perverse incentives for employers to find other ways to cut labor costs. You know what? Agreed! Instead of having a minimum wage, why don't we simply have employers pay their workers "the value of their output"? 
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Jun 6, 2014 04:07
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vulturesrow posted:First off, no matter how either side of the debate wants to paint the picture, there is plenty of evidence on each side favorable to their arguments. And again you show your willingness to slay strawmen, since I made it abundantly clear in that thread that I don't subscribe to Austrian economics. There is plenty of evidence on each side, for example here's one business that already charges more than its competitors also now charging a dollar more while being the only business to explicitly call it a "living wage surcharge" and here's a few nebulous figures talking about unnamed businesses cutting benefits. Which is most certainly because of a minimum wage increase, and not because businesses have been doing that. Your posted an article that cites this article as a source that includes the quote "The wait staff said the hotel across the street is unionized. Therefore, management is not required to pay the $15 wage." Now, maybe I misunderstand unions, but I don't think that's how minimum wage laws work.
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Jun 6, 2014 04:13
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Justus posted:You know what? Agreed! Instead of having a minimum wage, why don't we simply have employers pay their workers "the value of their output"?  
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Jun 6, 2014 04:18
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I've never really liked that graph because all it's saying is "when most of your jobs get mechanized whatever's left should be paid more", which is what's happening already. The low paying jobs are just in the fields that haven't heavily mechanized yet.
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Jun 6, 2014 04:21
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vulturesrow posted:What is the problem here? I'm not much of a consequentialist. And even in the part you quoted I even said that there were economic policies that would be more important to me than minimum wage. Because it's not a position that lends itself to honest debate. It means you can cherry-pick evidence that agrees with you with which to attack your opponents, but no amount of counter-evidence, not even conclusive proof that your economic model is wrong matters because you'll just retreat into unfalsifiable "philosophical objections". If you don't care about evidence then why are you submitting evidence to us for consideration? Oh and we're talking about economic policy and you're "not much of a consequentialist?". How do we decide what's good policy and what's not without looking at whether it achieves its ends or not? Like, what does that mean? What, even if we found out that the minimum wage is an unambiguous benefit for the poor that outweighs whatever drawbacks exist if any, we shouldn't do it anyway because we're philosphically committed to the idea that full-time work shouldn't pay enough to feed a family?
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Jun 6, 2014 04:25
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Swan Oat posted:The only way to conclusively settle this matter is to make it illegal for white people to vote. Sounds good to me.
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Jun 6, 2014 04:26
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June up http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3640730
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Jun 6, 2014 04:27
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