|
My Imaginary GF posted:Zionism: Noted Ideology Motivated by Financial Considerations Absurd Alhazred posted:Zionism is dead. It's been done. What we have now is Manifest Destiny and Moving Where It's Cheaper. http://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/economic-settlers-prepared-to-move-29507848.html http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/West-Bank-settlements-a-40-year-perspective-361132 http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3866959,00.html http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2012/08/201282211420708214.html http://www.btselem.org/settlements/migration http://www.settlerwatch.com/en/publikationer/bosattare/ http://peacenow.org.il/eng/node/297 http://peacenow.org.il/eng/content/quality-life-settlers Indeed. So again, MIGF, why would these people put oppressing Palestinians before their own prosperity?
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 04:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 08:20 |
|
|
DarkCrawler posted:http://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/economic-settlers-prepared-to-move-29507848.html If politics would have taught you anything, I'd hope you wouldn't have to be told that the resounding answer to this is, and has always been, "Yes." Ask in the US Politics thread if Americans are willing to put majority-minority oppression ahead of their own prosperity.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 04:49
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:If politics would have taught you anything, I'd hope you wouldn't have to be told that the resounding answer to this is, and has always been, "Yes." Yeah, the difference between "tax cuts for the rich" and "brutal economic sanctions, isolation from the rest of the first world" in your hit to prosperity is a bit more different. South Africans didn't put it ahead, Israelis won't. It's that simple. Again, unless you believe Israelis are bloodthirsty to the point of murder-suicide.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 04:53
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Ok, how about this for a solution: I don't see where this helps the Manifest Destiny people (they want ERETZ YISRAEL LEAM YISRAEL, not for some loving goyim; remember, they're driving their own Bedouin partners of their lands because they want to expand some further INTO A loving DESERT), nor the I Want Cheap Housing people (spending money on non-Jews settling in the West Bank and/or Gaza means less resources to build housing for Jews; and if you're not going to be helping the Jewish housing crisis by building in the settlements, might as well just withdraw and be done with it). Again, you legit have a very poor grasp of what's already failed; it makes it hard to take your solutions, nae, your very reasoning about the topic, seriously.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 04:53
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:I don't see where this helps the Manifest Destiny people (they want ERETZ YISRAEL LEAM YISRAEL, not for some loving goyim; remember, they're driving their own Bedouin partners of their lands because they want to expand some further INTO A loving DESERT), nor the I Want Cheap Housing people (spending money on non-Jews settling in the West Bank and/or Gaza means less resources to build housing for Jews; and if you're not going to be helping the Jewish housing crisis by building in the settlements, might as well just withdraw and be done with it). I'm saying thats the plan. Resistance to the plan by force of arms only strengthens the plan.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 05:01
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:I'm saying thats the plan. Resistance to the plan by force of arms only strengthens the plan. But there is nobody in Israel that would propose or support that plan, so again we come across the problem of you proposing something that isn't compatible with reality 
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 05:04
|
|
|
DarkCrawler posted:But there is nobody in Israel that would propose or support that plan, so again we come across the problem of you proposing something that isn't compatible with reality "Hey, youse guys, remember how you were freaking out over all those Eritrean Sudanese Muslim Christians swarming over the border in their tens of thousands, to the point where you're now sending a symbolic number of them to a concentration camp in the desert, and are considering removing the High Court's power for judicial review so it will stop you from detaining people indefinitely without cause? Well, boy, do I have a plan for you!"
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 05:09
|
|
|
Guys, I have solution to all our problems: let's all put My Imaginary GF on Ignore List, because he's a lovely troll who's opinions are worthless.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 05:18
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:"Hey, youse guys, remember how you were freaking out over all those Eritrean Sudanese Muslim Christians swarming over the border in their tens of thousands, to the point where you're now sending a symbolic number of them to a concentration camp in the desert, and are considering removing the High Court's power for judicial review so it will stop you from detaining people indefinitely without cause? Well, boy, do I have a plan for you!" "Lets send them to Gaza instead, with guarantees to grant them some title to land so long as they practice judaism!" What Israeli politician could refuse?
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 05:18
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:"Lets send them to Gaza instead, with guarantees to grant them some title to land so long as they practice judaism!" Haha yeah, because it's really easy to convert into Judaism and the Rabbinate is famously lax about conversions, especially mass ones! (The answer is all of them. All of them would refuse)
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 05:25
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:"Lets send them to Gaza instead, with guarantees to grant them some title to land so long as they practice judaism!" Yeah, I keep forgetting how well Ethiopian Jews are treated.  Seriously, every Israeli politician, because anyone who is thinking in terms of setting up settlements in Gaza again would be pushed by the people still upset for having been kicked out to let them settle there.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 05:34
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:"Lets send them to Gaza instead, with guarantees to grant them some title to land so long as they practice judaism!" What politician in a nation that already is in constant need for more room to build housing would create a program for people to very insincerely convert to a religion that doesn't really want converts and in exchange they get to take up more space that could have gone to a person you know for a fact is of your religion/ethnicity? That's almost as bad as an economic plan that is intended to give Arabs money and the ability to run their own economy and have their own international contacts! MIGF, let's take a step back and establish some basics. Do you know where Israel is?
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 06:02
|
|
|
DrProsek posted:What politician in a nation that already is in constant need for more room to build housing would create a program for people to very insincerely convert to a religion that doesn't really want converts and in exchange they get to take up more space that could have gone to a person you know for a fact is of your religion/ethnicity? That's almost as bad as an economic plan that is intended to give Arabs money and the ability to run their own economy and have their own international contacts! *must be Jewish already and willing to become hasidim. Terms and conditions may apply based on color of skin. If the issue is land, would Palestinians be willing to accept uninhabited land elsewhere in the world?
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 06:08
|
|
|
Would Israelis?
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 06:13
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:*must be Jewish already and willing to become hasidim. Terms and conditions may apply based on color of skin. Again, more citizens isn't really Israel's big problem right now so much as "housing the current ones and keeping up with the birth rate" is. quote:If the issue is land, would Palestinians be willing to accept uninhabited land elsewhere in the world? Considering that would mean abandoning some of the most sacred sites in all of Islam, homes their families have lived in for centuries, and give up all ability to seek justice for whatever wrongs the Israeli government has done/allowed to be done to them in exchange for land so worthless someone was willing to give it away for free, I would say that's incredibly unlikely.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 06:27
|
|
|
Hey MIGF, can I have your house? It's only land, after all. I can even set you up in a lovely swamp cabin in Florida instead.
Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 08:47 on Oct 31, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 08:32
|
|
|
I'm not going crazy am I? Imaginary Girlfriend really did use the holocaust as an example of something the Palestinians should be willing to endure before they magically get their own nation?
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 08:41
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:*must be Jewish already and willing to become hasidim. Terms and conditions may apply based on color of skin. Christ, the last six pages have been one awful argument by you after another. I can see you watching Schindler's List and nodding approvingly 'At least they weren't unemployed'. You'd hear a Jewish person say 'Next year in Jerusalem' and respond with 'Now wait just one second, why not take a chunk of the Sahara if the Egyptians are willing to give it to you, after all it's just land!' The situation's not at all similar to apartheid despite what those uppity black Apartheid heroes and Palestinian victims of Israeli apartheid policy say. Why? Well, um, I suppose Israel hasn't officially annexed the west bank, so there. Oh and I took a cab in Tel Aviv once and it was driven by an Arab who totally doesn't have to face regular calls for 'death to Arabs' on the streets and is totally an equal citizen so it can't be apartheid! Ugh. Israel shows a remarkable standard of care when it comes to Palestinian life. It took only three weeks with clear camera footage of the perpetrators to catch the three murderers of Abu Khalil and put them on ever-delayed trial. Meanwhile, Ze'ev - a man whose words, by the way, would get your average Palestinian a one-ton bomb if said in reveerse - gets shot by someone speaking Hebrew with a thick Arabic accent (lol) and they catch him and are forced to execute him and 'confirm the kill' practically immediately. The wonders of Israeli justice never cease.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 09:03
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Step 1: Bend the knee What incentives and penalties would there be, exactly, precisely, which would then prevent Israel from annexing the land and expropriating the wealth of a vassalized Palestine? This is supposing that actually Israel would happily accept a Palestine that was willing to become a vassal; given the settler dynamic, I doubt it. But OK, supposing that. quote:You're so close to appreciating the complexities of the issue, and then go and arrive at an illogical result. In another thread, you asserted without justification that the Stalinist USSR was a stateless society. In this thread, in arguing that the Palestinians should submit to the Israelis, you've given the Native Americans as a positive example of a people submitting to a greater power. You say "why is this so hard for others to understand," but I'm reasonably confident that you don't understand anything.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 09:28
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:Hey I think TIC has an interesting point here: can taking a human life ever really be justified? I look forward to him making the same argument for each of the thousands of victims of Protective Edge. Why is getting anybody to just admit that murdering politicians you don't like is not a cool thing to do like pulling teeth? Is there any anti-Zionist in the thread who is even physically capable of honestly answering that without lugubrious whining or seething passive-aggressiveness where they pretend I (and others) haven't constantly been condemning Israeli violence? Is it because they're unable to understand how anybody could take a position on the I/P issue that isn't "it's ok when my side kills your side, but not the other way around", as theirs so often seems to reduce to?
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 10:06
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:That burn would work better if IKEA wasn't known for using terrible sweatshops to build their lovely furniture. Hahaha, what?
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 10:51
|
|
|
Imagine trying to accumulate capital in Gaza. "Oh no my capital exploded again"
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 11:12
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:... In unrelated news, guess what I just bought? בעצם עד העצם - a compilation of Israeli satire upon the countries 40th anniversary. One of my favorite books back in high school, and it only took me so many decades to track it down (primarily because I remembered the title as בעצם בכלב, probably because of the dog on the cover and the illustrations). I'm going to post bits and pieces here, starting with this bit from the introduction: When the treasury runs out and the bureaucrats threaten to strike unless their pay is raised, the various committees search for a any item that is yet to be taxed. Eventually, an enterprising clerk discovers that walking sticks still don't have a tax on them. The state taxes them on the spot, obviously, and shortly thereafter, a special committee proposal makes it mandatory for every citizen to have a walking stick, whether or not they need one. Emissaries are sent abroad to borrow funds to buy trees to turn into walking sticks, to give one to every citizen so that it can be taxed. "but when the trees were imported to Israel, not a single lumberjack or saw-man could be found to hack them up, as the people were used to importing all their needs from abroad, all prepared, and these occupations died out. The state nationalized some lots, and used them to store the trees. Guards were put forth to keep thieves away. The guards constructed some shacks from handy materials, and settled down on their task. Since they had the awesome responsibility of guarding state property, they would not allow themselves a moments rest, nor would they go home even for meals. What they needed, they took from the trees and cooked with wood from the very same. In the winter they would make great fires to keep warm. The bachelors would host bachelorettes, and the married folk had their family visit, and their families kin as well. Kin would bring neighbors, and neighbors would bring their friends. Between all of these, the trees were completely burned into ash, which carried into the wind. The patisseries complained that the wind blows ash into their eyes, and turns them blind whenever they pass the lot. When the state realized that the complaints cannot be silenced, it had no choice but to appoint a committee to inspect the matter..." Shai Agnon, פרקים של ספר המדינה. Written in 1950(!). The man was a prophet, plain and simple.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 11:49
|
|
|
The Insect Court posted:Why is getting anybody to just admit that murdering politicians you don't like is not a cool thing to do like pulling teeth? There is not a single post in this thread where you have condemned Israeli violence, apartheid or colonialism in favor of screeching about how were all horrible anti-semites who are no better then Hamas members so again, you're a flaming hypocrite! Other Pro-Israeli posters in this thread have shown unwillingness to even acknowledge Israeli crimes and are mostly similar poo poo-and-run posters like you. With all this, why do you think anyone would take you seriously? Again, it's not hard to do. Murdering politicians is wrong! Wow, it's like I can hold that position and still think that Zionism is a horrible ideology that has no place anywhere where other races or faiths live. Magical!
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 12:16
|
|
|
The Insect Court posted:No, he asked about human life. The Insect Court posted:Why is getting anybody to just admit that murdering politicians you don't like is not a cool thing to do like pulling teeth? Murdering politicians is only cool if you call them "terrorist leaders" and kill them with a bomb while they're in a situation where you can maximize collateral damage. Also, to make especially sure that your murder is cool, you should bomb the houses of all of his extended family. Then you should pat yourself on the back and say you're the most moral in the world. On the other hand, eliminating dangerous activists who threaten your people's survival in a targeted operation where you only use small arms and make sure to have identified the target correctly, that's definitely uncool. Now excuse me, I've got to plan for Operation Benevolent Vigilance and I need to compile the GPS coordinates of every single kindergarten in Gaza for that. I have a lot of morality to do!
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 12:41
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:I think the idea is to punish Israel as a whole and through doing so force the nation to act, not just to remove specific companies from Palestinian soil. If you only punish the specific companies operating on Palestinian soil, that probably won't have a big enough impact to make the Israeli government feel compelled to act. You can`t look at it in such general terms. You have to consider each company in isolation and ask yourself" Can a boycott against this specific legal person be morally justified?" For me at least a boycott against a company can only be justified if that company is somehow complicit in the occupation. By ceasing to operate on occupied soil Sodastream has ceased to be complicit therefore continued boycott is totally immoral. The same goes for the Apartheid-era boycotts. Each company that would be hit by a boycott must be evaluated in isolation. If a south african company could somehow prove that it derived no benefit from apartheid then boycotting it would be immoral regardless if it employed black South Africans or not. If a South African company could not prove this i would not have any problems with supporting a boycott agianst that specific company. The fact that some companies employed blacks is completely irrelevant to my mind. I would assue most Souht African companies did actually benefit from apartheid ( for instance making blacks work for poo poo wages and so on) so i guess most of them deserved what they got. But not all of them deserved it and i feel truly sorry for those (admittely very few) buisnessowners that lost profits because they were unfairly hit by the anti-apartheid boycotts. Just because you are figthing for what you think is right does not mean that you get to target the innocent. That should be pretty obvious i think.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 12:48
|
|
|
Ilustforponydeath posted:Hahaha, what? Well, the comeback is all about how they should treat Palestinians better, but IKEA uses terrible sweatshops with poor worker conditions. Nothing really hard to udnerstand in what I'm saying.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 13:05
|
|
|
Baudolino posted:You can`t look at it in such general terms. All Israeli business operate within an apartheid regime. If they don't benefit from it in a direct, visceral sense then start lobbying the Knesset to end the apartheid. Does sodastream not pay tax to the Israeli government which enables this regime (not to mention the continued subjugation of the occupied territories)? flashman fucked around with this message at 13:13 on Oct 31, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 13:09
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:*process has gone on from significantly longer than just 1880. 80, more like. This doesn't address the point of that post, nor the points I made in this post. Again: your solution is based on obviously incorrect or misunderstood information, and worse than that, it doesn't even function according to its own terms. Israel, your go-to example of a country that has attained true peace and independence through your suggested means, has been at war since its inception as an independent state and will be at war for the foreseeable future. And anyway, let's be serious for a change. Talking about the story of Israel as if it started with Abraham is theology and rhetorical posturing, not history. Also, you said your "process" takes three or four generations, not 2000 years. God willing, if the Palestinians only submit to the powers and become stakeholders who hold a stake, in the capital markets, we will see an independent Palestine once more... perhaps in the year 4000 CE.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 13:11
|
|
|
" If they don't benefit from it in a direct, visceral sense" then i will not support any boycott. Sorry but if a company abstains from activly making hay from the occupation that is more than good enough from me. "then start lobbying the Knesset to end the apartheid". Not my job since i am not an Israeli.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 13:37
|
|
|
Baudolino posted:" If they don't benefit from it in a direct, visceral sense" then i will not support any boycott. Sorry but if a company abstains from activly making hay from the occupation that is more than good enough from me. Until Israel ends it blockade that affects all of Gaza's population and businesses it is unreasonable to expect BDS to target only targets deemed acceptable via an arbitrarily complex matrix. Indeed given how much stronger the Israeli economy is due to the apartheid system it is reasonable for BDS to be even less morally targeted than the blockade. Of course that isn't possible and BDS participants aren't as unpleasant as the Israeli government but morally speaking there is reasonable leeway there.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 13:53
|
|
|
I strongly disagree with that as you are still indiscrimently hurting people regardless of their complicity. I get that people want to help the Palestinians. But solidarity should not one`s only concern here. BDS being better than the Israeli state is low loving bar and this does not excuse them of anything. It is highly reasonable that they should be cautious and apply some sort of morale matrix as you say. Leave the unthinking causing of colleteral damage to the IDF and try to apply a sligthly stricter code of ethics to yourself. I can perhaps agree that it the burden of proof lies on the Israeli company seeking to be exempted from the boycott. Some leeway i will grant the boycotters ; boycott all you like unless a company seeks to exempted and can prove ( by a reasonable standard) that they a) do not support the occupation beyond paying taxes since that something they can`t avoid doing( only actions that you choose can be said to be of moral character) nor b) benefit explictly from the occupation for instance by using Palestinian labour or operating on occupied soil. When in doubt give weigth to wether or not the company lobbyes for peace. That still leaves plenty of room for groups like BDS to hurt the Israeli economy.There is a lot smart people who support the Palestinans. Can it really be so hard to put up a boycott complaigns board where boycotted companies can appeal being but on a " do not buy" list? poo poo we you even have the board include a member from the PA on one from Hamas. Think of the propaganda effect of having Israeli companies competing on being the most " Palestine-friendly" so as to avoid being boycotted! That`s why i think that being more ethcial would be a huge boon for the BDS campaign rather than hinder it. In it`s present state however i cant bring myself to support it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 14:23
|
|
|
Sodastream has been operating a facility in the middle of an illegal occupation. This is basic poo poo folks, there is no argument in favor of it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 14:25
|
|
|
Baudolino posted:" If they don't benefit from it in a direct, visceral sense" then i will not support any boycott. Sorry but if a company abstains from activly making hay from the occupation that is more than good enough from me. The business owners being boycotted would be the ones to lobby. Comparing the boycott of exported goods to the slaughter of children is a bit out there. flashman fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Oct 31, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 14:30
|
|
|
People not understanding the concept of a boycott ITT.The Insect Court posted:Why is getting anybody to just admit that murdering politicians you don't like is not a cool thing to do like pulling teeth?  I don't know what you're taking about, as I said in my post I share your unconditional respect for human life.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 14:33
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:"Bending the knee" pre-independence: None of those people were Israelis.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 14:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 08:20 |
|
|
Closing this thread to allow both sides to come up with new and exciting arguments. So it will probably never be reopened.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 14:55
|
|
