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PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Trabisnikof posted:

Thanks to all those mid level rails developers there is pretty much endless work for anyone who can fix those half-built rails 2.0 apps.

This is true. I find that it's much easier to turn a good developer with no experience in flavour-of-the-month-X into a good X-developer, than it is to turn a mediocre X-specialist into a decent developer. A good way to determine companies you don't want to work for: if their HR department doesn't recognize this, run like hell.

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HootTheOwl
May 13, 2012

Hootin and shootin

hobbesmaster posted:

In the abstract however when you have to pay thousands of dollars to do it then you might get angry.

That's a problem with tuition, a different issue.

SmuglyDismissed
Nov 27, 2007
IGNORE ME!!!
Just saw this article about Porcfest linked in the crazy forwarded emails thread. This part was pretty relevant:

quote:

A lot of people at Porcfest are software engineers, Web developers, IT support team members and telecommunications workers. Their jobs are relatively mobile, and uprooting to rural New Hampshire isn’t outside the realm of possibility.

From my experience, there hasn't been a bias among my coworkers. It seems there is a huge bias toward software/tech among the crazies, though.

down with slavery
Dec 23, 2013
STOP QUOTING MY POSTS SO PEOPLE THAT AREN'T IDIOTS DON'T HAVE TO READ MY FUCKING TERRIBLE OPINIONS THANKS

SmuglyDismissed posted:

It seems there is a huge bias toward software/tech among the crazies, though.

Yeah for sure, I totally know what you mean

That huge bias just "seems" so much I can barely believe at

And they get paid more than me! What jerks!

down with slavery fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Aug 4, 2014

Slow News Day
Jul 4, 2007

Stanos posted:

Got to give them credit, at least they are teaching something that isn't going to disappear in 5 years or be flooded with mid-level developers like rails.

Yep, anyone who doesn't write programs in assembly language is not a High-Level Developer (aka "Real Developer").

Trabisnikof
Dec 24, 2005

down with slavery posted:

Yeah for sure, I totally know what you mean

That huge bias just "seems" so much I can barely believe at

And they get paid more than me! What jerks!

I like how you quote software devs and act like they are jealous of software devs. I get paid more than myself! :derp:



Projecting much?

down with slavery
Dec 23, 2013
STOP QUOTING MY POSTS SO PEOPLE THAT AREN'T IDIOTS DON'T HAVE TO READ MY FUCKING TERRIBLE OPINIONS THANKS

Trabisnikof posted:

I like how you quote software devs and act like they are jealous of software devs.

He never said he was a software developer, just made some idiotic sweeping statements. Hard to tell you all apart to be quite honest.

Trabisnikof
Dec 24, 2005

down with slavery posted:

He never said he was a software developer, just made some idiotic sweeping statements. Hard to tell you all apart to be quite honest.

Yeah...

SmuglyDismissed posted:

Just saw this article about Porcfest linked in the crazy forwarded emails thread. This part was pretty relevant:


From my experience, there hasn't been a bias among my coworkers. It seems there is a huge bias toward software/tech among the crazies, though.

That's sure some "idiotic sweeping statements" right there. I mean, he even used "seems" that's basically slander. :rolleyes:

SmuglyDismissed
Nov 27, 2007
IGNORE ME!!!

down with slavery posted:

He never said he was a software developer, just made some idiotic sweeping statements. Hard to tell you all apart to be quite honest.

Huh? The whole conclusion of this thread has pretty much been that anecdotal evidence suggests that there are a wide variety of people in the software/tech industry and that the basic premise of the OP is wrong. However, a large number of visible, vocal tech types in the radical libertarian community give a false impression to people outside the field.

e: Also, the over represented demographics in the libertarian community are pretty much the same as in development so it's not surprising there is at least a bit more overlap than other fields. It's not like devs are special in this regard. A lot of young earth creationist apologetics are engineers so I guess we should make a thread about why all engineers think the earth is 6000 years old or something...

SmuglyDismissed fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Aug 5, 2014

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 272 days!

down with slavery posted:

He never said he was a software developer, just made some idiotic sweeping statements. Hard to tell you all apart to be quite honest.

Like this one?

McAlister
Nov 3, 2002

by exmarx

down with slavery posted:

Why don't you just tell us what the industry is instead of playing countdown to the reveal

Mainly busy and don't want to take the time to make it nice and sourced if all people are more interested in title-chat. Since you are the only interested person and want to self research I'll just do the summary.

Its dry cleaning.

An economist wrote a paper about the most lucrative fields to get in in the 80s or 90s and dry cleaning was on the list. This got it attention because capitalists hadn't really noticed just how lucrative mom&pop dry cleaning shops were. But the study outed dry cleaning as a common occupation of millionaires. Once it had been pointed out to them they swept in and did everything the doom criers say will happen to dev if we don't fight back. Within a decade dry cleaners became min wage sweatshop workers in central laundries fed by multiple storefront collection points and the millionaire mom&pops are gone. Surviving independent cleaners work on razor thin margins struggling to compete with the economies of scale the big boys have going for them.

Investors and employers have been trying to commoditize developers since long before they noticed dry cleaners ... and yet they have utterly failed to do to us what they did to dry cleaners.

Assertions that our industry is about to succumb any year now are therefor not credible unless you can also offer a compelling explanation about why it hasn't yet and what has changed recently such that we are now vulnerable.

Newcastle
Jul 10, 2003

McAlister posted:

Investors and employers have been trying to commoditize developers since long before they noticed dry cleaners ... and yet they have utterly failed to do to us what they did to dry cleaners.

Assertions that our industry is about to succumb any year now are therefor not credible unless you can also offer a compelling explanation about why it hasn't yet and what has changed recently such that we are now vulnerable.

You could say we went through commoditization phase in the early 00's when outsourcing boomed and programmer pink slips flowed freely... but 5 years later we were back to cries of "Developer shortage!" and whines about how expensive developers are.

This industry pretty much re-invents itself with new crap every 5 years so nothing stays relevant long enough to get commoditized. 5 years ago nobody really cared about mobile. 10 years ago nobody cared about fancy web 2.0 poo poo or social networks. 15 years ago nobody *really* cared about cheap commodity servers, commodity e-commerce, dynamic web programming languages etc. 20 years ago nobody cared about the internet.

This will eventually stop and when it does I imagine we'll get pounded down to 40K a year... if we're lucky enough to still be considered for domestic labor.

on the left
Nov 2, 2013
I Am A Gigantic Piece Of Shit

Literally poo from a diseased human butt

McAlister posted:

Mainly busy and don't want to take the time to make it nice and sourced if all people are more interested in title-chat. Since you are the only interested person and want to self research I'll just do the summary.

Its dry cleaning.

An economist wrote a paper about the most lucrative fields to get in in the 80s or 90s and dry cleaning was on the list. This got it attention because capitalists hadn't really noticed just how lucrative mom&pop dry cleaning shops were. But the study outed dry cleaning as a common occupation of millionaires. Once it had been pointed out to them they swept in and did everything the doom criers say will happen to dev if we don't fight back. Within a decade dry cleaners became min wage sweatshop workers in central laundries fed by multiple storefront collection points and the millionaire mom&pops are gone. Surviving independent cleaners work on razor thin margins struggling to compete with the economies of scale the big boys have going for them.

No poo poo that small businesses in "unsexy" sectors that deal in cash often generate huge cashflows. It really doesn't follow that an economic report that nobody here has heard of revolutionized the market for dry cleaners though.

Also, specifically relevant to the 80's and 90's, isn't a dry cleaners one of the more popular money-laundering schemes?

Pythagoras a trois
Feb 19, 2004

I have a lot of points to make and I will make them later.

Newcastle posted:

This will eventually stop and when it does I imagine we'll get pounded down to 40K a year... if we're lucky enough to still be considered for domestic labor.

As someone who went from being unemployed 3 years ago with no formal training in Computer Science to an entry/mid level position, I wholly agree with the position that the workforce will catch up with she developer shortage. The educational materials are free and ubiquitous, and the work is just too easy compared to a blue collar position.

Trabisnikof
Dec 24, 2005

McAlister posted:

Mainly busy and don't want to take the time to make it nice and sourced if all people are more interested in title-chat. Since you are the only interested person and want to self research I'll just do the summary.

Its dry cleaning.

An economist wrote a paper about the most lucrative fields to get in in the 80s or 90s and dry cleaning was on the list. This got it attention because capitalists hadn't really noticed just how lucrative mom&pop dry cleaning shops were. But the study outed dry cleaning as a common occupation of millionaires. Once it had been pointed out to them they swept in and did everything the doom criers say will happen to dev if we don't fight back. Within a decade dry cleaners became min wage sweatshop workers in central laundries fed by multiple storefront collection points and the millionaire mom&pops are gone. Surviving independent cleaners work on razor thin margins struggling to compete with the economies of scale the big boys have going for them.

Investors and employers have been trying to commoditize developers since long before they noticed dry cleaners ... and yet they have utterly failed to do to us what they did to dry cleaners.

Assertions that our industry is about to succumb any year now are therefor not credible unless you can also offer a compelling explanation about why it hasn't yet and what has changed recently such that we are now vulnerable.

Can you explain what a >100 year old industry has to do with a <100 year old occupation?

Frosted Flake
Sep 13, 2011

Semper Shitpost Ubique

Cultural Imperial posted:

Haha I just clued in she's a dude.

Makes sense, they usually have pretty terrible opinions.

See also: tumblr thread.

Stanos
Sep 22, 2009

The best 57 in hockey.
Can we not misgender Tunney, there's plenty of make fun of without going that route.

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Mr Shiny Pants
Nov 12, 2012

Mofabio posted:

If you want to learn why this is, it's all in Disciplined Minds.

A brief summary: professionals are quite liberal (pro civil rights, pro gay marriage, etc) on distant issues, non-professionals are liberal on immediate issues (war drafts, worker rights, edit add: trust in democracy). On issues that might conflict with the ideology of their organization, professionals lose their backbone, and non-professionals gain one.

Why: well, most non-professional workers are under constant surveillance, and have their time micromanaged, which obviously generates distrust. Professionals aren't, because a proceduralized workday would conflict with the novel, creative work they're hired to do. So how do you keep professionals on task? Basically, you make them show ideological commitment to the organization. Then you don't have to watch them- they're self-policed.

The book goes into detail about how this ideological commitment gets embedded and how bosses ask for it to be demonstrated. The end result is, professionals range from the non-political (read: still live out the ideology of their organization 8 hours a day) to Ayn Rand devotees.

Not to resurrect a dead thread but I bought this book after reading your post. It really is good. Thanks for the recommendation.

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