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BlondRobin
May 29, 2005

Sssh! Be vewy vewy quiet. It's wabbit season.
The answer to 'what it was about,' such as it is, seems to be pretty simple: that there is no right choice... only making one. The game is a game- even without the game lampshading it- once you put it away, the world ends. It only continues if the story goes on in your head. Therefore, the value to a choice is only in what the player assigns to it.

To put it another way, the Pathologic Kickstarter spent a lot of time on 'choice,' but it doesn't talk about the great choices or branching paths offered by the story. It had its little flowchart about 'how to spend a day,' talking about all the things you could do or might happen. The game still ends one of three ways, and everyone in it is a doll for the player to play with. This is why 'victory' in this little game is not about saving everything; because everything is going to end once the program ends anyway. There's nothing to save, there is no grand victory for a world that has had apocalypse waiting in the form of ALT-F4 from the moment you clicked on it... except I guess maybe to take over your computer and kill you IRL. That would certainly be one crazy new generation of games.

The catch is the Player is not the Player, and is asked to look at things from the perspective of one of the pawns, the NPCs, in such a sense. So, what is winning for these people? If they knew the circumstances they existed in, what would be their ultimate victory?

Easy; to become the master of their own destiny, and so you did. The game could have simply said 'Favorite letter: A, B, or C?' at the end, and it would have been exactly the same. You made a choice; a choice that is exclusive and not one that leads to the same as the others. A choice that you made, independently of what the game wanted. You may not have been able to derivate from the script, but you had an effect over the outcome. No matter how small, you have control over your own destiny.

So, at the end, you rise from the game the master. Everything is dolls, except you, because you made a Choice. The victor is not the Haruspex, nor the Bachelor, nor the Impostress. It is not Kain, nor Khan, nor Aglaya, nor the General; it is not even the Authorities, or the Town, or the Polyhedron. These are dolls, sand castles and words; they never existed except as reflections on your monitor. It is you, because in the end, you chose.

It's a fancy screen saying, 'You win!'

(which I guess means the only real way to lose is to lose all your other characters' adherents so there is no choice to make? honestly, having written all that I think the game is stronger without any of that; the story of the town, the plague, et. al. is great on its own, but that seems to be what they're getting at; that choice in games is its own value and every decision is meaningful, rather than worrying about how many specific branching paths it makes)

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curiousCat
Sep 23, 2012

Does this look like the face of mercy, kupo?
I still don't really get it.

RBA Starblade
Apr 28, 2008

Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester

Great work with the LP! You did an excellent job translating. Man, I love Ice Pick Lodge's stuff. Pathlogic actually shares a lot of themes with The Void. In both games, the important thing is that you choose; to the point that in The Void there are like a dozen endings but ten of them are the same one with a different filter and different poem. Knock Knock also gets pretty meta and starts to gently caress with the player. Cargo kind of just teases you a bit though in comparison.

The game was hinting at the end since the start!



Klara: "No, I don't like trickery, but if they want to trick us, then the situation unties our hands... What is this place that we've all ended up in ?"
Artemiy: "Well, the muscles are contracting. That means that we are already inside him. Feels like one of the ventricles."
Klara: "What a stupid place. This is just a dummy! That means none of this is real. It hasn't started, not yet."
Daniil: "I don't care what he is made of. It's perfectly clear that something isn't right. We'll have to perform a transverse section. Cut open the wall, otherwise we won't get out of here. What else is there to do?"
Klara: "I know what to do! The one who will be tricked is the one who will act with honesty and straightforwardness. Only a miracle will let us get out of here and not ruin anything in the process, and I'm the only one here who can make miracles. Untie my hands."

As a last bit of goofiness, Ol' Farmer Hitler made sure that the Aurochs didn't die off after all (sort of). :v:

laplace
Oct 9, 2012

kcab dneb smra ym semitemos tub ,reh wonk I ekil leef I
This was an awesome LP and I would die for you to do a Bachelor LP, considering how the only one available is full of broken links. Your translation was awesome and well deserved.

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.

Clapping Larry
Ah, I understand now. Before, the Town needed the Polyhedron. But Kapella was looking to make a new Town with different factions, which doesn't need a Polyhedron.

Ghostwoods
May 9, 2013

Say "Cheese!"
That was wonderful. Thanks for all your hard work, HellishWhiskers.

Old Boot
May 9, 2012



Buglord
This is the best LP, and thank you for doing it, even if it seemed like it was getting aggravating for you towards the end, which I can understand. I loved the ending, and the meta poo poo, but I can totally see why people wouldn't.

That aside: the last (full) conversation with Aglaya is seriously one of my favorite things, and I agree that putting her through the entirety of it seems really cruel.

I hope that it (and the fourth-wall-breaking-poo poo) gets better coverage in the remake, 'cause as much as Hellish Whiskers seemed to resent it, it actually took me aback enough to make me really enjoy it. The game never says that the reality Artemiy lives in doesn't exist by its own rules, and Aglaya basically implies that it's gone on for a long time, like some bizarro parallel world that's gained its own history, legacy, whatever, that can and will outlast the people who created it through children's games. She's also been in it long enough that she seems like she legitimately has her own agency, which made her flipping out at "the player" speaking to her that much more poignant.

You're another outside force that's loving with the world she lives in. It makes a lot of sense that she'd want Artemiy to experience the same agency. Keeping in mind that this is entirely my take on it; the developers could have meant for her to be their own collective avatar. Still, the impression remains.

Honestly, given when this LP updated and wrapped up, the whole talk of dolls and their importance to those who owned them (in Aglaya's speech, anyway) was a really weird reminder of The Christmas Toy from Jim Henson studios. Namely, her whole thing about being the preferred choice of the mother of the two children, eventually being hated by said children, that Artemiy might be of the same generation, and thus disliked, in contrast to newer, more interesting toys.

But they still feel the impact, which leads me to believe it wasn't just one big conceit to theatre, even if that plays a large part in what goes on... obviously.

I don't know. I really liked how she was the one who knew what could play out, and why she needed to be careful. They're playing by rules that aren't governed by anything but children's logic, and, thus, if your incarnation in another plane of existence is a simple doll, having your head pulled off because you're boring, or you've irritated the sibling of whoever's controlling you at the time (nuh uh, you're giving her too much power, shut up!!) is an actual threat.

I'm not sure if the LP actually showed this, either, but if you talk to random people on the street, their portrait is of a doll, the same kind that you see laying around the "secret" room in the Polyhedron.

The whole take on the story is really interesting, in that respect. I don't remember what the kids say to the other two protagonists, but they expressly do not like Artemiy. He's the kind of adult that would ruin their imaginary fun, re: the Polyhedron.

I could go on and on, and was planning to if I'd ever LP'd this game, but I'll spare y'all the paragraphs of speculation, as the ending is pretty much 'take what you will from it,' and whatnot. It'll be clearer when the new game shows up.

EDIT: Looking at the Impostress LP, the kids open up to Klara pretty fast, and even say in their letter to her that she's their favorite. The way they interact with the Bachelor is completely different, as well. Interestingly, the "best" ending for the Bachelor is easily the worst in terms of how it plays out. If you can handle not having screenshots, definitely look at Brass Monkey's LP for how much different those questionable moments can be.

Old Boot fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Jan 9, 2015

dead gay comedy forums
Oct 21, 2011


Eh, the ending.

I really like the whole story and themes of Pathologic, but by the ending, the game starts to sink itself in a "look how intelligent we are you peasant" black hole and pulls out a metacommentary conga line that just kills the entire atmosphere. The game has plenty of allusions to theatre: the setting of the stage before you choose who you are going to be, there are the "Authorities" who are directing the play, actors and stagehands about the town doing their tasks and three protagonists who perform their parts. The player is there to provide choice and agency specially in the end - which is commentary enough for the "game" part of it.

(For comparison, The Stanley Parable is much more effective at doing the entire meta part while binding it to gameplay and storytelling. Of course, it is a dedicated game to do that purpose and Pathologic is waaaay older than that, but the intention is fundamental here.)

Anyway, great LP!

Kacie
Nov 11, 2010

Imagining a Brave New World
Ramrod XTreme
Thanks for retranslating and doing this LP !

I read the Bachelor and only partly got it, as there were no pictures. I also read the LP of Klara the Impostriss, and was completely different in many ways, just as this, too, is different. The themes the protagonists explore, their relation (or lack thereof) to the Steppes, their approach to what is causing the plague and how to cure it. The ending seems to also change if you only keep your own adherents alive, and not everyone's?

From the other LPs, seemed like the two children were struggling with the death of a beloved uncle or grandfather, and this was their way of working it out. Aglaya has a much smaller presence, and perhaps it was the translation, perhaps a difference of story, but the doll connection wasn't explicit? (Not counting that every regular townsperson looks like a doll, which is admittedly important; rather that the main characters don't make such an explicit connection to being dolls?)

I'm not sure the Town needed the Polyhedron; that seemed to be something where Simon attempted to become more than human, and upset the balance of the town, with the Polyhedron being his vehicle. I'd always thought the Polyhedron looked like a wasp and wasp's nest, with it being a sort of parasite on the bull; only once the final picture showed the fetus did I see the uterus shape. (Parasite still being a valid assessment, in that either the Town or the Polyhedron has to die.)

I'd love to see the Bachelor run, with a translation and images, but that's asking for a lot of work.

Thanks very much for everything, HellishWhiskers!

swamp waste
Nov 4, 2009

There is some very sensual touching going on in the cutscene there. i don't actually think it means anything sexual but it's cool how it contrasts with modern ideas of what bad ass stuff should be like. It even seems authentic to some kind of chivalric masculine touching from a tyme longe gone
Thanks for doing this, it was really interesting. Any way you could show what happens if you accept Klara's help and do the final test instead of killing the elder?

As for the ending I felt like... if you try to make fiction or entertainment with some sort of connection to real human feelings, real-world significance, it gets frustrating, because the closer you get to achieving that the more you realize you never can quite get there. The fiction remains this hermetically sealed bubble world where you, the author, are the ultimate arbiter of everything, and it's all just you talking to yourself.

I think the game takes this out on the player in kind of an unhelpful way with the meta stuff. But it redeems itself right at the end, by letting the player decide the ultimate meaning of the story. I strongly disagree that the choices themselves don't matter, only the act of making the choice. Is the story about the impossibility of utopia, or the necessity of it? Are you going to submit to the Earth, or try to transcend it? Are you finally motivated by doing what's best for the people you like, or by what's best for the world (and what's that? and why?) All the answers you can choose are imperfect and all of them are equally valid. It works really well I think.

woodenchicken
Aug 19, 2007

Nap Ghost
Finally finished this read, drat that was a lot of drama on one forum page :v: This LP was especially interesting to me. When I played the Haruspex part, I went down the well on the penultimate day, and kept no older save, so I missed all the developer shenanigans during the endgame. poo poo, I've always considered Artemy's path to be the more sweet of the three, with him taking the reins and staying in town to help advance the society and all that. I see you've perceived it differently and it made for a completely different experience viewing it through your lens. The choice to leave town, that tiny part of the conversation punctuates this handily.
I never finished writing the effortpost I wanted to make with real-world trivia, because I'm a huge fuckup and because real life interfered with my free time. I think I'll pull whatever I have together and post it anyway, for whatever goons that may still check this thread.

When you get back online, make sure you contact baldurk and get your work archived! It's a marvelous effort and needs to be preserved.

woodenchicken
Aug 19, 2007

Nap Ghost
So I noticed a sudden lack of browser-breaking image avalanches on this page, and decided to do something about it. So here goes:

When someone asked Ice-Pick Lodge's leader Nikolai Dybovsky as to when and where Pathologic was set, he replied without a moment's hesitation, «Moscow, 1980s». So if you ever wondered about that, well, there you go.

As for the origin of the many names and terms in the game associated with the Order and the steppe, he had this to say:
«At certain point I started seeing words in my head. Since I didn't know their meanings, I was sure I was making them up. Even though I had Mongolian, Kalmyk, Buryat cultures in mind when I was doing it. Even Yakut, maybe. Later I was very surprised to learn that river Gorkhon actually exists, and some of my «made up» words have actual meanings (and sometimes they fit what I'd had in mind perfectly). It must have had something to do with the folklore study seminar I had been attending dilligently for 2 years in IVGI [The Institute for Advanced Studies in Humanities]. It was conducted by one professor Neklyudov; mentioned cultures were his area of expertise and he always provided examples while describing the laws of folk traditions. I must have used some of those memories, but it wasn't conscious.»

LOCATION

As the man said, Gorkhon is a real thing, and it's the first clue fans use to try and pin the game on the real-world map. «Gorkhon» means «stream» in Buryat language. While there doesn't seem to be an actual Gorkhon river, there are a lot of rivers in Republic of Buryatia with «Gorkhon» in the title, like «Hara-Gorkhon» (Black Stream) or «Shuntyn-Gorkhon» (Larch stream).

Buryatia is a region squeezed in between lake Baikal and Mongolia:



For an example of Mongolian words in this universe, take Egae-Gol, the distant river where the «nomad camps» are located. Gol means «river» in Mongolian, as in «Egiin-Gol», for example.
Or Olghoi, which Maria uses as an insult, which is Mongolian for «large intestine».


This is known because there's this mythical creature/urban legend Olgoi-Khorkhoi (Large intestine worm), or MONGOLIAN DEATH WORM, as Wikipedia calls it - a sandworm that supposedly lives in Gobi Desert and kills people with poison and/or electric shocks. (Another common insult, Mara, is clearly mythological, but it doesn't give us much, because a Mara exists everywhere, from Hinduism to Buddhism to Slavic, Germanic and Scandinavian cultures, and can mean anything from a goddess of death to a creature that likes to sit on people's faces when they sleep.)


But anyway, Buryatia’s landscape is varied. The republic is located at an intersection of Eastern-Siberian mountain taiga and the Asian Steppe. There are no Great Plains or anything on its territory though, so it's unlikely that our weird made-up empire is supposed to be located literally there. But drat if some of the pictures don't look ridiculously familiar:














Pathologic wishes it had this draw distance.

Of course, that’s not exactly steppe - these photos are taken in Buryatia's valleys surrounded by mountains. This peculiar rock, for example, is located in the Barguzin Valley:


Bukhe-Shuluhn a.k.a. The Bull Rock is a local landmark.



Here’s its origin story: During winters, ancient Buryat ancestors would move their herds south-east. But one bull took a liking to the valley and didn't want to leave. The herders would return for it three times, but each time it would run away into the valley again, until it turned into a rock to stay in the valley forever. It is believed that the rock contains the spirit that protects all the people who live in the valley. Local tradition prescribes visiting the rock, making small talk with it, asking it for assistance.



A bull is an important symbol in buryat shamanism. Another origin story involves a clashing of two huge bulls near Lake Baikal. They fought trying to decide who would rule the land. When neither of them could get the upper hand, they both decided to leave. The spotted bull left for the abovementioned Barguzin Valley, while the white one went to Tunkin Valley and became the marble rock Bukhe-Noyon.



Bukhe-Noyon also happens to be the name of the main guy in the pantheon of 13 Buryat deities that is worshipped by many tribes.



Bukha-Noyon Babay (Bull Lord Father) a.k.a The Grey Bull, Prince Bull, is a totemic ancestor in the Buryat mythology. Also, Lamaists included him in their pantheon, Mongols treat him as a mythical creature, and Christians declared that he’s actually St. Paphnuce.



Apparently, when two gods started duking it out under the guise of bulls at the shores of Baikal, a daughter of a local khan drove them away, but got pregnant from Noyon's intense stare (or bellow, depending on who you ask) Her two sons became the founders of two Buryat tribes.



NAMES
Ice-Pick tried to make the game look and feel as un-Russian as possible, so that Russian players couldn't «place» it or associate with anything. Otherwise it would be harder to create this dream-like reality, disconnected from any real memories or historical events. Easier for the player to make assumptions. There aren't many details in the setting that would help identify it as Russia.


Pictured: NOT Pathologic.

Names also aren't typically Russian, or at least none of the super popular ones are present. But where do they come from? World Wide Web has a million sites that allow you to track the origin of your family name, or show the frequency with which a name tends to occur in different lands. If you search for the surnames (I only did the distinctly European ones, but not super generic ones like Angel or Jan), you can try to imagine the origins of the town's families. Most names are smeared all over the place, but certain ones do tend to gravitate towards certain territories.
While most fans maintain that all used names are Eastern European, and connect them to settlements of Eastern Europeans formed in Siberia at different times (i.e. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybirak), it seems that likely origins of the Town's clans are more varied than that.


Burakh Sr. and Jr's first names do have connection with antiquity (althrough not Roman culture strictly speaking): Greek goddess Artemis and Egyptian Isis. Doesn't change the fact that what they practice bears little resemblance with classical haruspicina. Also, I did a search for the word «Menkhu», and (I'm really impressed by the search engine for offering this result from some occult wiki) 'Khu-men' is apparently Mayan for «the man who knows», or a priest/healer. Bos Primigenius was called that not because he was so boss (even though he was!). It's just Latin designation for the Aurochs species.

While we are on the topic of names, according to behindthename.com, Alexander (first name of both Saburov and General Block) is the Greek for «defender of men». Khan's real name - Caspar - means «treasurer» in Persian. Vlad «rules», Eva «lives» or «breathes», and Stanislaw [Rubin] «stands with glory». Lara Ravel and her dad are «rebellious». Nina was the name of a Babylonian and Assyrian fertility goddess who was identified with Ishtar.

«Klara» means «clear, bright, famous» (The name Clarus was borne by a few early saints). «Daniel» is based on the Hebrew phrase «God is my judge», and «Artemis» is thought to be related either to Greek «artemes», which means «safe» or «artamos», which means, uh, «a butcher».

woodenchicken fucked around with this message at 11:03 on Jan 21, 2015

curiousCat
Sep 23, 2012

Does this look like the face of mercy, kupo?
I appreciate that post.

HellishWhiskers
Mar 29, 2012

She was an awkward girl
I am slowly getting back from my 2 month "vacation" from the real world, courtesy of BMT, and over the next couple of weeks I will go back and write a bit more stuff/smoothen out the rough edges before getting this LP archived. Thank you for kind words and thanks for that effortpost, woodenchicken. Sorry for kicking this LP out of the door rather suddenly, I didn't get a lot of notice and I wanted to get it done and that contributed to me being a bit more annoyed with the game more than I otherwise would have been. Thanks for reading and I am glad to have helped folks at least somewhat experience this fairly awesome game.

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Mraagvpeine
Nov 4, 2014

I won this avatar on a technicality this thick.
I just want to say thanks for LPing this interesting game.

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