Zimbabwe/Rhodesia Discussion Thread

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Zimbabwe/Rhodesia Discussion Thread

SyHopeful: Jun 24, 2007; May an IDF soldier mistakenly gun down my own parents and face no repercussions i'd totally be cool with it cuz accidents are unavoidable in a low-intensity conflict, man

In light of the Rhodesian derailment in the latest Israel/Palestine thread, it seems to me that there's enough interest in D&D about Rhodesia and Zimbabwe, and that the subject is of just enough volume to fill a decent single thread. So here's part one of my Rhodesia effortposts in the image thread. I'm ashamed I haven't finished part two, but I just haven't had the time or energy lately. But I'd be much more willing to engage in, say, a forum discussion

SyHopeful posted:

I�m writing this as someone who has recently become fascinated with the history of sub-Saharan Africa. Growing up as a typical white male American, my understanding of sub-Saharan Africa and its history was very, very light, and what little I thought I knew boiled down to the standard paternal racism lines - white people brought civilization to the unwashed tribal hordes of backwards blacks who eventually revolted against the great white institutions and welp look at how lovely Africa is now!

Reading about Rhodesia is what triggered my intellectual curiosity about the whole situation. Actually, it was pictures. Photographs of metropolitan and suburban areas that look just like the kind of places I was familiar with, yet they existed in this amazing African landscape, so alien to me. Removed from any socio-political context, Rhodesia definitely looked like a place I could see myself living:

But it would, of course, be intellectually dishonest to romanticize Rhodesia while explicitly ignoring that important socio-political context, so off I went around the Internet, reading what I could and trying to separate the hyperbole (there is a ton, especially from the Rhodie diaspora) from fact. Here�s my best effort and I hope you at least find it interesting.

A Very Abridged History of Rhodesia

pre-Colonial

Contrary to largely held (in Western nations anyway) beliefs, pre-European Africa wasn�t just a bunch of isolated tribes. There were many great, technologically advanced (for their time period) empires in Africa, and there existed in modern-day Zimbabwe the ancient Kingdom of Zimbabwe, with it�s capital at Great Zimbabwe, the famous ruins. The etymology of the name isn�t conclusive, but the strongest evidence suggests that it came from the Shona words for �great stone house�, dzimba-dza-mabwe. Indeed, it was after these ruins and civilization that the modern nation of Zimbabwe took its name.

Archaeological research at Great Zimbabwe has found artifacts originating from civilizations up the coast of Africa, through the Middle East, and even India, suggesting there was a healthy trade economy extant long before the arrival of Europeans. That such a location existed threw a lot of doubt on the commonly held European belief that native Africans had not at any point moved beyond small tribal communities. This knowledge was considered so damaging to the narrative that the white minority used to justify its existence that they actively suppressed the publication of strong evidence showing Great Zimbabwe to be of an African origin.

Birth of a ~~nation~~ geographical corporate holding

Fast forward several millenia and become acquainted with this chap:

Cecil Rhodes was the namesake of Rhodesia and the man largely behind all British interests in southern Africa. As the face behind exploitative institutions like the British South Africa Company (BSAC, as founder) and the DeBeers diamond company (as the first chairman), Rhodes was basically the essence of imperialism, and his actions directly and indirectly impacted the course of history for drat near every African nation south of the DRC. It�s really difficult to understate his impact.

Most of his colonial efforts were done through the BSAC. The BSAC used that tried-and-true European method of acquiring land that we�re all familiar with: coercing, lying, or bribing native leaders into signing legally binding contracts that said leaders most likely didn�t understand. It was through this method that the land bearing the name Rhodesia came under BSAC authority.

I should mention here two points:
The motives for the colonization of Africa had nothing to do with bringing civilization to the natives, or protecting them from Arab slavers, or any other humanitarian motive (with the kind-of-exception of Christian missionaries). It was purely about natural resources, something that sub-Saharan Africa possesses in great abundance to this day.
Colonialism is a great anti-libertarian story. Almost all of the European interests and investments in Africa were done through private corporations like the BSAC, and the Belgian Congo was King Leopold�s private playground for many years, administered almost entirely by private companies. The sheer amount of cruel, horrific, and cynical abuses, manipulations, and exploitations that these European companies inflicted on native Africans in the pursuit of profit make a poor case for free market principles.

The Africans have a proud history of resistance of colonial efforts, and one of these was the war known as either the First Chimurenga (Shona for �revolutionary struggle�) or Second Matabele War, when the Ndebele and Shona people revolted against the BSAC. You can all guess that it wasn�t ultimately successful (it is said that Cecil Rhodes himself persuaded one of the tribes to lay down their arms), but it did set a precedence of resistance that would ferment and grow over the next half century.

As the British, Portuguese, Belgians, Germans, and Dutch continued to solidify the borders of their respective holdings, the territory known as Rhodesia became part of a British protectorate. The territories under the protectorate congealed, and in 1953 Rhodesia was actually part of Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland. This consisted of Nyasaland (modern-day Malawi), Northern Rhodesia (modern-day Zambia), and Southern Rhodesia (modern-day Zimbabwe).

The Federation was semi-independent (even having its own currency), with the more populous Southern Rhodesia providing the administrative core. Because these territories didn�t possess the mineral wealth that other African locales like Katanga did, their economies became agriculture heavy, with sufficient arable land that was, of course, set aside for white settler farmers.

But since this was the middle of the 20th century, colonialism was starting to fall out of vogue. The great Good Versus Evil lens that World War 2 was popularly viewed through made these racist institutions look increasingly hypocritical to the European citizenry, and of course the local black populace had grown fed up with half a century of literal enslavement and disenfranchisement. The 1950s and 1960s in Africa were a time of popular riots and brutal suppressions, of an emerging movement of Western-educated and left-leaning Africans like Mandela, Lumumba, Machel, and Mugabe. Pan-African Unity spread like wildfire, as Africans had a common interest that transcended any tribal rivalries: independence and self-determination.

Unfortunately for them, what was a struggle for noble causes was muddied by the international geopolitical context of the time: one of East vs. West, capitalism vs. communism. For some European nations with colonial holdings the threat of spreading communism was used as a great excuse for drawing out independence transitions, but for the major Western superpower, the United States, the Domino Theory dominated foreign policy.

But while most colonial holdings moved towards independence from their European masters and towards democratic majority rule, Rhodesia doubled down on the status quo. See, in 1964 and with the blessing of the UK, the Federation broke up, with Malawi and Zambia being the wholly independent nations born from Nyasaland and Northern Rhodesia, respectively. Why Malawi and Zambia but not Rhodesia? Because the UK had a policy of �no independence until majority rule�. Since the Rhodesian government wasn�t ready for that, it made its own plans.

While these larger independence events were hopeful signs to the Africans still living under white minority rule, things would get worse before they got better: in 1965, the white minority government of Rhodesia issued the UDI, or Unilateral Declaration of Independence, stating that Rhodesia was no longer beholden to the UK and would carry on doing its thang, propping up minority rule.

How did minority rule work in Rhodesia? Well, even back then it wasn�t politically viable to deny blacks governmental participation explicitly, so the requirements to be granted voting rights were based on....wait for it....financial means. To be eligible to vote, you had to have a certain amount of net worth. On top of that, the bicameral Rhodesian parliament had a majority of seats set aside for white politicians and a token amount of seats that were usually filled by black politicians. In the 60s, the large numbers of whites migrating to Rhodesia emboldened the government, which believed it was just playing a waiting game until demographics ensured a white majority.

Up next, Rhodesian society, Rhodesian armed forces, and the Rhodesian Bush War/Second Chimurenga

This ended up running really long and I realized I needed to do more research on the upcoming topics to really fill them out! So sit your Terreblanche down and relax.

THREAD RULES:

- This can be a very polarizing issue, and even I have strong biases, but my primary interest is historical. Please try to keep hyperbole to a minimum and provide sources to back up your argument.

- Please post pictures. I love them.

- Usual D&D rules.

- That's basically it.

e: Thanks mods!

SyHopeful fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Aug 6, 2014

# ? Aug 6, 2014 03:11

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Apr 24, 2024 17:26

Bastaman Vibration: Jun 26, 2005

I posted this reply in the D&D pics thread when Rhodesia was discussed months back and I think you or someone else replied and mentioned they would follow up.

dinoputz posted:

If you do a Rhodesia effortpost, could you explain some of the means the white minority used to co-opt much of the black population into supporting the regime? I've heard that blacks had a measure of representation in the government, even though it didn't even come close to parity with whites despite their majority status. If that Wikipedia quote is true I can't for the life of me understand how such a large portion of the armed forces could support that type of racist regime in a conflict as brutal as the Bush War.

I'm still interested in what anyone has to say about it though.

# ? Aug 6, 2014 05:32

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Well, and what Rhodesia thread would be complete without the old Soldier of Fortune ad:

Back when their classifieds section was actually for...soldiers of fortune.

e:

woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Aug 6, 2014

# ? Aug 6, 2014 05:38

SyHopeful: Jun 24, 2007; May an IDF soldier mistakenly gun down my own parents and face no repercussions i'd totally be cool with it cuz accidents are unavoidable in a low-intensity conflict, man

dinoputz posted:

I posted this reply in the D&D pics thread when Rhodesia was discussed months back and I think you or someone else replied and mentioned they would follow up.

I'm still interested in what anyone has to say about it though.

I think that was me, sorry I didn't reply! The short story is that colonization did improve the lives of some blacks e.g. medical treatment and education. I don't think its unfair to say that that background of British institutions was in some ways beneficial -- Zimbabwe has the highest literacy rate in Africa, hell most of Mugabe's degrees came from the University of London External Programme. As far as the military goes, the impression I've gotten is that most members of the Rhodesian African Rifles were really just after a decent paycheck.

I'm not certain how many black Rhodesians genuinely supported the government versus support whatever was in their best self-interest, and the Protected Villages (Rhodesia's version of a bantustan) as well as the brutality of security forces did plenty to build tacit and explicit support for Mugabe and Nkomo.

# ? Aug 6, 2014 06:57

illrepute: Dec 30, 2009; by XyloJW

About how many whites remain in Zimbabwe today? What's their situation now, and do they face violence and discrimination? I've heard it's pretty bad, but it's hard to get unbiased information about this since the vast majority of white Zimbabweans seem to exist in youtube comment sections railing against black people and majority rule.

# ? Aug 6, 2014 09:43

Sheng-Ji Yang: Mar 5, 2014

Theme song for thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvTv-I2Y390

# ? Aug 6, 2014 10:45

Bro Dad: Mar 26, 2010

In Zimbabwe news, it seems that old bastard Mugabe's mind is deteriorating, and now his wife might try to wrestle control of ZANU-PF away from the VP and continue Mugabe rule :smithicide:

# ? Aug 6, 2014 11:16

Ligur: Sep 6, 2000; by Lowtax

quote:

Growing up as a typical white male American, my understanding of sub-Saharan Africa and its history was very, very light, and what little I thought I knew boiled down to the standard paternal racism lines - white people brought civilization to the unwashed tribal hordes of backwards blacks who eventually revolted against the great white institutions and welp look at how lovely Africa is now!

Are all Americans this stupid and ignorant, or just white male ones? :v:

If you are a yellow or red American, or perhaps a trans-sexual, are you more aware of African history?

Anyway, Africa threads are often cool.

# ? Aug 6, 2014 12:42

Florida Betty: Sep 24, 2004

Ligur posted:

Are all Americans this stupid and ignorant, or just white male ones?

If you are a yellow or red American, or perhaps a trans-sexual, are you more aware of African history?

Anyway, Africa threads are often cool.

My "World History" class in high school didn't even mention Africa until we got to the slave trade, and that was about the extent of what we learned about the entire continent. That was 15 years ago, so maybe things have changed, but somehow I doubt they've changed for the better. Americans are really, really ignorant about the rest of the world.

# ? Aug 6, 2014 13:21

Zeroisanumber: Oct 23, 2010; Nap Ghost

Ligur posted:

Are all Americans this stupid and ignorant, or just white male ones?

Outside of Ancient Egypt and some brief bits about the Rift Valley, the slave trade, colonialism, and Mandela, I didn't learn jack poo poo about Africa or African history until college. And I only learned about Africa in college because I was actually interested enough to take a couple of classes.

# ? Aug 6, 2014 14:09

SyHopeful: Jun 24, 2007; May an IDF soldier mistakenly gun down my own parents and face no repercussions i'd totally be cool with it cuz accidents are unavoidable in a low-intensity conflict, man

illrepute posted:

About how many whites remain in Zimbabwe today? What's their situation now, and do they face violence and discrimination? I've heard it's pretty bad, but it's hard to get unbiased information about this since the vast majority of white Zimbabweans seem to exist in youtube comment sections railing against black people and majority rule.

I can't find solid numbers on the remaining white population in Zimbabwe, but Wikipedia suggests it's probably under 50,000. My impression is that whites in Zimbabwe actually don't have it too bad, but they're still nursing a bit of a bunker mentality - gated communities with private security in Borrowdale, outside of Harare, that sort of thing. It's not as rosy for white farmers due to the land redistribution, however the land reform measures are starting to bear fruit (no pun intended) for the country.

Ligur posted:

Are all Americans this stupid and ignorant, or just white male ones?

If you are a yellow or red American, or perhaps a trans-sexual, are you more aware of African history?

Anyway, Africa threads are often cool.

As already stated, US public education gives no fucks about Africa that isn't ancient Egypt. Seriously none.

# ? Aug 6, 2014 14:31

Ligur: Sep 6, 2000; by Lowtax

Florida Betty posted:

My "World History" class in high school didn't even mention Africa until we got to the slave trade, and that was about the extent of what we learned about the entire continent. That was 15 years ago, so maybe things have changed, but somehow I doubt they've changed for the better. Americans are really, really ignorant about the rest of the world.

Zeroisanumber posted:

Outside of Ancient Egypt and some brief bits about the Rift Valley, the slave trade, colonialism, and Mandela, I didn't learn jack poo poo about Africa or African history until college. And I only learned about Africa in college because I was actually interested enough to take a couple of classes.

SyHopeful posted:

As already stated, US public education gives no fucks about Africa that isn't ancient Egypt. Seriously none.

Well. To be honest it's not much better here, when I was a kid we were taught Egypt, Atlantic slave trade (but not Eastern slave trade), something about famines and foreign aid, and yeah Mandela. These days Imperialism and the Rwandan genocide are included, I hear! Apart from Egypt mostly just stuff that somehow concerns the West directly. For some reason almost everyone knows and is interested enough to be a whole lot more aware of the continent and it's history anyway.

The land reforms were a terrible catastrophe, but yeah, right now it appears small grain production - what most sub-Saharan Africa did and was (is!) good at before the series of collapses, grandiose dictators and other calamities after independence - is finally doing well. Or better. I think the cash crop production is still something like half of what it used to be, which makes the public coffers empty, but probably doesn't affect the regular joe much if at all.

# ? Aug 6, 2014 15:17

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

Florida Betty posted:

My "World History" class in high school didn't even mention Africa until we got to the slave trade, and that was about the extent of what we learned about the entire continent. That was 15 years ago, so maybe things have changed, but somehow I doubt they've changed for the better. Americans are really, really ignorant about the rest of the world.

I only had one class of World History in high school ~6 years ago and the coverage of sub-Saharan Africa was about the same. Our American History class didn't really cover it either but the US wasn't that involved in Africa compared with Europe et all (and we did cover Latin America/Cuba/Philippines/etc extensively).

# ? Aug 6, 2014 18:16

folgore: Jun 30, 2006; nice tut

Have some loving decency and at least wait until page 2 before you start bitching about your American high school in a thread ostensibly not about America.

# ? Aug 6, 2014 18:19

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Ligur posted:

Are all Americans this stupid and ignorant, or just white male ones?

If you are a yellow or red American, or perhaps a trans-sexual, are you more aware of African history?

Anyway, Africa threads are often cool.

I'm pretty sure most Americans don't think anything like that. They don't know much besides 'it's the place where slaves came from' and 'the British hosed the place up really badly' though

# ? Aug 6, 2014 18:20

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

Zeroisanumber posted:

Outside of Ancient Egypt and some brief bits about the Rift Valley, the slave trade, colonialism, and Mandela, I didn't learn jack poo poo about Africa or African history until college. And I only learned about Africa in college because I was actually interested enough to take a couple of classes.

It could be worse. As a child in 1950's South Africa, my mother was taught ridiculous lies about African history, mostly about how South Africa was totally empty y'all, but black people started arriving from farther north just when the Dutch were settling pristine uninhabited wilderness, so really it's the black people who came to take away the land of the earlier-arriving whites.

Oh and the people who were already living in the interior before the Great Trek? Oh um, well actually you'll find that the savage Zulus killed them all so that land was empty too when the Boers settled it. They made sure to only take the depopulated lands and then they valiantly defended it from Zulu invasions.

I should actually ask her more about what it was like, because just some of her off-hand descriptions of what she was taught are so ridiculous.

# ? Aug 6, 2014 19:03

SyHopeful: Jun 24, 2007; May an IDF soldier mistakenly gun down my own parents and face no repercussions i'd totally be cool with it cuz accidents are unavoidable in a low-intensity conflict, man

VitalSigns posted:

It could be worse. As a child in 1950's South Africa, my mother was taught ridiculous lies about African history, mostly about how South Africa was totally empty y'all, but black people started arriving from farther north just when the Dutch were settling pristine uninhabited wilderness, so really it's the black people who came to take away the land of the earlier-arriving whites.

Oh and the people who were already living in the interior before the Great Trek? Oh um, well actually you'll find that the savage Zulus killed them all so that land was empty too when the Boers settled it. They made sure to only take the depopulated lands and then they valiantly defended it from Zulu invasions.

I should actually ask her more about what it was like, because just some of her off-hand descriptions of what she was taught are so ridiculous.

Unsurprisingly it was very similar in Rhodesia. For example, the government suppressed archaeological evidence suggesting that Great Zimbabwe was constructed by black Africans, not Arab or East Indian traders. I've read the exact same line about murderous Zulus killing all the peaceful Africans as a justification of Rhodesian pioneer aggression towards natives.

computer parts posted:

I only had one class of World History in high school ~6 years ago and the coverage of sub-Saharan Africa was about the same. Our American History class didn't really cover it either but the US wasn't that involved in Africa compared with Europe et all (and we did cover Latin America/Cuba/Philippines/etc extensively).

Largely true, but it's not like the US doesn't have a lot of history in Africa. Liberia, the assassination of Lumumba and the subsequent decades of propping up Mobutu, covert attempts to topple Nkrumah, CIA involvement in Angola, etc.

# ? Aug 6, 2014 19:41

Bastaman Vibration: Jun 26, 2005

SyHopeful posted:

Largely true, but it's not like the US doesn't have a lot of history in Africa. Liberia, the assassination of Lumumba and the subsequent decades of propping up Mobutu, covert attempts to topple Nkrumah, CIA involvement in Angola, etc.

I admit I was going to post something similar to this (was even going to mention Mobutu and Angola) but was scared to. Hell, I'm all for assigning Killing Hope to young people and everything, but remember these are high school students and we don't learn much in the 20th century besides WW1/WW2. (Vietnam conspicuously absent when I was in high school around the turn of the century but I hear it's getting better)

# ? Aug 6, 2014 19:48

SyHopeful: Jun 24, 2007; May an IDF soldier mistakenly gun down my own parents and face no repercussions i'd totally be cool with it cuz accidents are unavoidable in a low-intensity conflict, man

dinoputz posted:

I admit I was going to post something similar to this (was even going to mention Mobutu and Angola) but was scared to. Hell, I'm all for assigning Killing Hope to young people and everything, but remember these are high school students and we don't learn much in the 20th century besides WW1/WW2. (Vietnam conspicuously absent when I was in high school around the turn of the century but I hear it's getting better)

It's an indictment of our history curriculum, and not just the lack of openness about our involvement in Africa. You'll read about the Iranian hostage crisis but you won't read about Operation Ajax, for example.

I have over 300 images from Rhodesia and Zimbabwe (most were saves from newrhodesian.net) here.

# ? Aug 6, 2014 20:02

Badger of Basra: Jul 26, 2007

folgore posted:

Have some loving decency and at least wait until page 2 before you start bitching about your American high school in a thread ostensibly not about America.

Not an empty quote.

# ? Aug 6, 2014 20:05

SyHopeful: Jun 24, 2007; May an IDF soldier mistakenly gun down my own parents and face no repercussions i'd totally be cool with it cuz accidents are unavoidable in a low-intensity conflict, man

Badger of Basra posted:

Not an empty quote.

I invite you and folgore to post about Zimbabwe or Rhodesia, or ask questions, or post pictures, or anything

I love the topic and would really enjoy content that's new to me.

If anybody wants a good book about the Rhodesian Bush War I recommend David Caute's Under the Skin: The Death of White Rhodesia. I found his perspective refreshingly unique and most of the book is based around personal interactions and interviews with pretty much all types involved: ZIPRA and ZANLA troops, Rhodesian security forces, white farmers, black civilians, Christian missionaries (who were apparently quite a thorn in the Smith Gov't's side; many were deported).

# ? Aug 6, 2014 20:12

Bastaman Vibration: Jun 26, 2005

SyHopeful posted:

I invite you and folgore to post about Zimbabwe or Rhodesia, or ask questions, or post pictures, or anything I love the topic and would really enjoy content that's new to me.

Christian missionaries (who were apparently quite a thorn in the Smith Gov't's side; many were deported).

I'd like to hear about this, or any other "liberal" whites that were deported. Just looking for Wikipedia-level info right now, I'll probably order that book later, too.

# ? Aug 6, 2014 20:27

SyHopeful: Jun 24, 2007; May an IDF soldier mistakenly gun down my own parents and face no repercussions i'd totally be cool with it cuz accidents are unavoidable in a low-intensity conflict, man

dinoputz posted:

I'd like to hear about this, or any other "liberal" whites that were deported. Just looking for Wikipedia-level info right now, I'll probably order that book later, too.

Pretty much all of my knowledge on this comes from Caute's book, which I don't have available to me since I'm at work right now so can't provide specifics, I apologize. But you won't regret the purchase, I devoured the book once I got it.

# ? Aug 6, 2014 20:39

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

I work on educational development within Uganda, and have a very good friend in America from Zimbabwe. He's black and was a doctor in Zimbabwe, and I've worked with him on some medical institutional development projects while we were both in grad school. I'd be happy to share thoughts if anyone has a specific question.

# ? Aug 6, 2014 21:46

illrepute: Dec 30, 2009; by XyloJW

What's the state of the standard of living / healthcare / general infrastructure of Zimbabwe compared to say, its neighboring countries? There's a tendency in America to view Africa as an undifferentiated mass of poverty, though obviously this isn't true. I know Botswana has done relatively well, and that while South Africa is still struggling after the end of Apartheid, it has made significant gains. Has the standard of living eroded much under Mugabe?

# ? Aug 6, 2014 22:03

SyHopeful: Jun 24, 2007; May an IDF soldier mistakenly gun down my own parents and face no repercussions i'd totally be cool with it cuz accidents are unavoidable in a low-intensity conflict, man

illrepute posted:

What's the state of the standard of living / healthcare / general infrastructure of Zimbabwe compared to say, its neighboring countries? There's a tendency in America to view Africa as an undifferentiated mass of poverty, though obviously this isn't true. I know Botswana has done relatively well, and that while South Africa is still struggling after the end of Apartheid, it has made significant gains. Has the standard of living eroded much under Mugabe?

I'd be curious to know this too, if My Imaginary GF has any anecdotes to share.

# ? Aug 6, 2014 22:40

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

My Imaginary GF posted:

I work on educational development within Uganda, and have a very good friend in America from Zimbabwe. He's black and was a doctor in Zimbabwe, and I've worked with him on some medical institutional development projects while we were both in grad school. I'd be happy to share thoughts if anyone has a specific question.

Why did he leave Zimbabwe?

In my parents' South African expats group up in Oklahoma, they've got a number of ex-Zimbabweans with them. At one of their events a black ex-Zimbabwean spoke about growing up there, and it was pretty interesting (like the first time he saw a white man, the man was dressed as Santa Claus. The man had come to his village to give the children gifts, and he ran away and hid in fear). I don't know, if the thread is interested I could do my best to write down a short account of his stories that I found most interesting.

# ? Aug 6, 2014 22:45

SyHopeful: Jun 24, 2007; May an IDF soldier mistakenly gun down my own parents and face no repercussions i'd totally be cool with it cuz accidents are unavoidable in a low-intensity conflict, man

VitalSigns posted:

Why did he leave Zimbabwe?

In my parents' South African expats group up in Oklahoma, they've got a number of ex-Zimbabweans with them. At one of their events a black ex-Zimbabwean spoke about growing up there, and it was pretty interesting (like the first time he saw a white man, the man was dressed as Santa Claus. The man had come to his village to give the children gifts, and he ran away and hid in fear). I don't know, if the thread is interested I could do my best to write down a short account of his stories that I found most interesting.

Please do!

# ? Aug 6, 2014 22:47

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

illrepute posted:

What's the state of the standard of living / healthcare / general infrastructure of Zimbabwe compared to say, its neighboring countries? There's a tendency in America to view Africa as an undifferentiated mass of poverty, though obviously this isn't true. I know Botswana has done relatively well, and that while South Africa is still struggling after the end of Apartheid, it has made significant gains. Has the standard of living eroded much under Mugabe?

Like most of Africa: it really depends. I suppose the most apt comparison could be made with Nigeria's health institutions: yes, the buildings are there, and yes there are some well-staffed and well-funded hospitals (for the elites).

From what I we discussed, there is a tremendous lack of investment in non-male human development [to quote, "And you know, my lovely wife, she was number 1 on the exam and number 1 in pharmacy in the whole of Zimbabwe. I am the most fortunate Doctor in all of Zimbabwe]. I mean that in nursing standards, the amount of human development is comparible to West Africa, and I mean the average in the UN designation and not just private hospitals.

For instance, there is neither institutional structure nor system for medical record sharing, at all any more. Rhodesia had a semi-structure for this based upon South Africa, and it hasn't been systemically addressed since. My friend would have to go to the hospital record office himself, maintain friendship with the recorder, and then be given that hospital's paper record. Its much worse in rural clinics. One thing I worked on with him for a CGIU proposal was to figure out how to incentive such a system/demonstrate that it would allow X doctors Y more time to deal with Z more patients per day and decrease maintenance spending by %.

# ? Aug 6, 2014 22:55

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

VitalSigns posted:

Why did he leave Zimbabwe?

He had migrated to the US to pursue his MPH. Whether he will emigrate after he is surgically licenced in US, I can't say.

# ? Aug 6, 2014 22:59

Ms Adequate: Oct 30, 2011; Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling

In uni I happened to share some classes with a Zimbabwean refugee who may be known to a few people, Patson Muzuwa. Hearing someone describe first-hand how they were tortured by Mugabe's regime is a hell of a thing :smith:

I don't actually have anything germane to add to the conversation though, just that I hope the place can be fixed and justice can be found.

# ? Aug 7, 2014 02:06

SyHopeful: Jun 24, 2007; May an IDF soldier mistakenly gun down my own parents and face no repercussions i'd totally be cool with it cuz accidents are unavoidable in a low-intensity conflict, man

Here's one of my favorite excerpts from Caute's book:

Under The Skin posted:

Two young soldiers are drinking Castle lagers in a roadside bar at Rusape, staring in morose silence at a group of Afs across the road who are strutting and crowing and laughing enough to make you want to lift your FN. 'Pamberi ne Jongwe!' The two white soldiers are apprentices in civilian life, both employed by the Shabani Asbestos Mine and both hollow with chagrin and disbelief. We fall into conversation, then their mood changes and they want to beat me up, a poo poo journalist, so I offer them a lift to Salisbury. The ground rules of Rhodesian chivalry forbid an assault from the moment one enters someone's house or car: 'The army told us a pack of lies they told us Mozorewa would win I reckon the Russians had it all sewn up I mean when we bring in the terrs now we can't even shoot them we just let them go free I've had terrs tell me Mugabe sold out at Lancaster House they're very cocky with all this "comrade" poo poo I say to them don't give me any of that "comrade" poo poo not me listen, next time I don't mind what our orders are I'm not going into the bush we're sticking around the towns to look after our families I mean Zanla and Zipra can go into the bush to get these gooks I mean you should live here for three months to see what they're like you give them a finger and they'll take your hand power is all they want they're hungry for power so they can fill their pockets mind you that Mugabe bloke might just be different you can't read the bugger's mind I tell you nobody here trusts him an inch next time it'll be South Africa he had these bases in Mozambique so now he's going to do the same thing against South Africa right? I'm going down there to fight this thing once and for all I mean we've got to stay here and take what comes soon they'll try and take our guns I'm staying here because this is my country but I've got no security so I'll leave but you tell me where I can go I'm not a racialist I'm prepared to work beside a munt or sit in a bar with one or some wog which I can tell you I wasn't prepared to do a few years ago no way but the world was against us and sold us out just because Russia or Communism wanted to get its hands on what we'd built up in this country there's nowhere like Africa I can have a car and go fishing in the dams I can go with my friends and have a drink four times a week and still have money in my pocket you try doing that in a pub in the UK it's very relaxed here I mean I've done two and a half years in the bush and boy I've had it up to here but if you go to South Africa there's this agreement that within three months you'll be called up into the army and you can't get a job unless no qualified South African applies for it I'm an apprentice fitter and turner and my friend here is an electrician we're due to get our papers at the end of the year that means $(R)700 a month instead of $(R)300 and subsidized housing even after tax and deductions you take home $(R)600 but I'm not staying no way I don't give a poo poo for this country I mean I'm not a racialist but I hate the munt after what he's done to this country I mean it was the munts who suffered in the war you take these black artisans in the mines they get the same pay as we do but they don't need the money your munt has his hut and his mealies and that's it I reckon that Mugabe is really bright that one he won that election with his black box story and his sky satellite story he knows how to put everyone to sleep but you give it sixteen months and you won't find hardly a white person here and I'll tell you why it's because they won't leave us alone sixteen months I don't give a poo poo what they do except they'll give us this Marxism he's been talking about for the last four years I'll switch off the lights if I'm the last one out.'

Bottle-tops litter the floor of the car. So long as they remain in my debt I am in no danger. A miniature tape recorder - nicknamed Verbatim - turns in my inside pocket. Their aim is to settle into the Park Lane Hotel with several crates of beer and break up the town before it disintegrates.

Love reading that in a South African English accent.

# ? Aug 16, 2014 23:26

NLJP: Aug 26, 2004

folgore posted:

Have some loving decency and at least wait until page 2 before you start bitching about your American high school in a thread ostensibly not about America.

This isn't totally irrelevant though. You have to remember who the majority of people on this forum are and where they come from and it is by no means an indictment restricted to US education. In many ways it's even more infuriating that the situation is basically the same here in the UK because of how much more directly involved we were.

You'll pretty much find nothing except ancient Egypt in our curriculum too and it's a disgrace. I only learned a lot more thoroughly about the systematic destruction of sub-Saharan African history when I did Archaeology at university. Granted, there it was made very clear what an absolute disgrace the work at Great Zimbabwe, for example, was. Not that it didn't see pretty fierce protests at the time from eminent Archaeologists in the UK. The wholesale wrecking and destruction of evidence made the researchers at the time pariahs in the archaological community.

Still, we learn gently caress all about the history down south in our history curriculum at school. Not even a 'welp, it mostly got wrecked but there's a lot more to learn out there and poo poo was real complex and interesting'.

I'd have to dig out my old books from storage to get the details sadly. Still, alongside China, sub-saharan Africa is one of the great untapped archaeological treasures. There seems to be a poo poo ton still to find out there if funding was made available and things got more stable in general.

It pales beside the more human cost of colonisation but I'm hopeful that not all has been destroyed and that there is a lot more to find.

# ? Aug 17, 2014 00:06

SyHopeful: Jun 24, 2007; May an IDF soldier mistakenly gun down my own parents and face no repercussions i'd totally be cool with it cuz accidents are unavoidable in a low-intensity conflict, man

NLJP posted:

This isn't totally irrelevant though. You have to remember who the majority of people on this forum are and where they come from and it is by no means an indictment restricted to US education. In many ways it's even more infuriating that the situation is basically the same here in the UK because of how much more directly involved we were.

You'll pretty much find nothing except ancient Egypt in our curriculum too and it's a disgrace. I only learned a lot more thoroughly about the systematic destruction of sub-Saharan African history when I did Archaeology at university. Granted, there it was made very clear what an absolute disgrace the work at Great Zimbabwe, for example, was. Not that it didn't see pretty fierce protests at the time from eminent Archaeologists in the UK. The wholesale wrecking and destruction of evidence made the researchers at the time pariahs in the archaological community.

Still, we learn gently caress all about the history down south in our history curriculum at school. Not even a 'welp, it mostly got wrecked but there's a lot more to learn out there and poo poo was real complex and interesting'.

I'd have to dig out my old books from storage to get the details sadly. Still, alongside China, sub-saharan Africa is one of the great untapped archaeological treasures. There seems to be a poo poo ton still to find out there if funding was made available and things got more stable in general.

It pales beside the more human cost of colonization but I'm hopeful that not all has been destroyed and that there is a lot more to find.

It seems that most of the European citizens I've talked to (a German and Belgian most recently) agreed that their primary-level history education heavily whitewashes or completely glosses over their respective colonial pasts, so it's somewhat relieving to know that at least the US is no worse on the subject than Europe.

# ? Aug 17, 2014 00:23

Lustful Man Hugs: Jul 18, 2010

You mentioned large amounts of white immigration to the country back in the day. Are there major reasons for this trend? Money? Ideology?

# ? Aug 17, 2014 01:22

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Apr 24, 2024 17:26

SyHopeful: Jun 24, 2007; May an IDF soldier mistakenly gun down my own parents and face no repercussions i'd totally be cool with it cuz accidents are unavoidable in a low-intensity conflict, man

Lustful Man Hugs posted:

You mentioned large amounts of white immigration to the country back in the day. Are there major reasons for this trend? Money? Ideology?

I'd say the most prominent reason was the promise of economic opportunity -- Rhodesia offered cheap, quality land and a number of subsidies to white immigrants, especially those interested in farming. There was also an abundance of unskilled but cheap labor that also served as an underclass, so even fairly penniless whites were afforded more welfare and privilege than the native Africans.

There was a strong number of missionaries out in the bush, so I suppose you could say that ideology was also a significant reason, but I'm assuming your asking about John Q. Public.

# ? Aug 17, 2014 01:45

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Zimbabwe/Rhodesia Discussion Thread