Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Alouicious posted:

haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahhahah
ahahahahahahahahahahhhhahahhaahahahahahaahahahahaaaaahahahahhhahahahahahahahahaha

this sums up my feelings nicely

Mister Fister posted:

It's almost like there's more nuance to some situations and statements like 'attempts to defend the abuser's behavior' makes you look dumb.

I mean, if we found out that Ray Rice is the Bill Cosby of abuse, then have at it, but at this stage, you're basically saying that Ray Rice cannot rehabilitate himself and he can't live in an abuse free relationship with his wife.

Tell you what.

Find a single trained domestic abuse professional that will go on record saying "Sometimes violence is a one time thing and you should stay with the guy while he tries to work through it" and I will shut up.

One, find one.

Go.

Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Dec 1, 2014

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

Mister Fister posted:

It's almost like there's more nuance to some situations and statements like 'attempts to defend the abuser's behavior' makes you look dumb.

I mean, if we found out that Ray Rice is the Bill Cosby of abuse, then have at it, but at this stage, you're basically saying that Ray Rice cannot rehabilitate himself and he can't live in an abuse free relationship with his wife.

but ya gently caress one goat

Mister Fister
May 17, 2008

D&D: HASBARA SQUAD
KILL-GORE


I love the smell of dead Palestinians in the morning.
You know, one time we had Gaza bombed for 26 days
(and counting!)

Mel Mudkiper posted:

this sums up my feelings nicely

Your feelings are dumb though.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Mister Fister posted:

Your feelings are dumb though.

Buddy not to flame war but you just unironically dropped SJW into a conversation so maybe we have reached a cognitive impasse

Elephanthead
Sep 11, 2008


Toilet Rascal
So how many of you have donated to the local womens shelter. They need clothes, soap, toys, razors all the crap you would take if you weren't running out the door last minute. Focus your rage on helping women who couldn't pick up the phone and get 10 divorce attorney bringing her a 7 figure settlement in 2 hours.

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

Elephanthead posted:

So how many of you have donated to the local womens shelter. They need clothes, soap, toys, razors all the crap you would take if you weren't running out the door last minute. Focus your rage on helping women who couldn't pick up the phone and get 10 divorce attorney bringing her a 7 figure settlement in 2 hours.

that sure is relevant to the 5 seconds it takes out of your day to make a post on the internet

GonadTheBallbarian
Jul 23, 2007


Elephanthead posted:

So how many of you have donated to the local womens shelter. They need clothes, soap, toys, razors all the crap you would take if you weren't running out the door last minute. Focus your rage on helping women who couldn't pick up the phone and get 10 divorce attorney bringing her a 7 figure settlement in 2 hours.

I do every year—the groups seem to be able to do a lot of good in a state where these sorts of things are typically a bad joke.

I just wish there were more YWCAs or something up here where board was easy to come by on the cheap so people have a place to go for longer.

GonadTheBallbarian fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Dec 1, 2014

Mister Fister
May 17, 2008

D&D: HASBARA SQUAD
KILL-GORE


I love the smell of dead Palestinians in the morning.
You know, one time we had Gaza bombed for 26 days
(and counting!)

Mel Mudkiper posted:

this sums up my feelings nicely


Tell you what.

Find a single trained domestic abuse professional that will go on record saying "Sometimes violence is a one time thing and you should stay with the guy while he tries to work through it" and I will shut up.

One, find one.

Go.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/domestic-abusers-can-reform-studies-show-1410822557

quote:

The video of Ray Rice assaulting the woman who is now his wife has raised a big question about domestic violence: Can someone who has abused his partner go on to a healthy relationship?

It isn't easy. Treating a domestic batterer can be as difficult as treating an alcohol or substance abuser, experts say. Some offenders need treatment multiple times before it works. Others are never successful at reforming their behavior, whether their partner stays or they start a new relationship.

While both men and women commit acts of intimate-partner violence, as experts call it, approximately 85% of victims are female. Decades of studies show that about 60% to 70% of abusive men who complete a comprehensive batterer treatment program can reform, says Jeffrey L. Edleson, professor and dean of the School of Social Welfare at the University of California, Berkeley, and an expert on domestic abuse.

One of the most thorough and well-designed studies on the topic was funded by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and conducted by Edward Gondolf, now a professor emeritus at Indiana University of Pennsylvania. It was summarized in 2004 in the journal Aggression and Violent Behavior. The study spent four years following 618 men who entered batterer-intervention programs in one of four cities, as well as their female partners starting when the men entered the program.

The study found that at the 30-month follow-up, more than 80% of the men had not re-assaulted their partner in the previous year, and at the 48-month follow-up, 90% of the men had not assaulted their partner in the past year. The treatment programs were small education-therapy groups, meeting at least once a week for between four months and a year. "Men who completed the program were much less likely to abuse their partners," Dr. Gondolf says.


The study also showed that at both of these follow-up points, two-thirds of the women (some the original partners of the men, some new) said that their quality of life had improved, and 85% of the women said they felt very safe.

Men who complete batterer-intervention programs are just a minority of those who enroll—and they typically enroll only after they've been mandated by a court to do so. Still, Dr. Edleson says tens of thousands of men have been arrested for intimate-partner abuse and have learned to become nonviolent.


Experts say intimate-partner violence is, like other forms of domestic violence, primarily a learned behavior. But someone who grew up witnessing or experiencing domestic abuse or who has a history of criminal behavior is much more likely to be abusive than someone who didn't.

There are different types of intimate-partner abusers, experts say. A subtype often referred to in the field as the Intimate Partner Terrorist is the "worst of the worst," says David B. Wexler, executive director of the Relationship Training Institute in San Diego, a nonprofit organization that designs and runs domestic violence treatment programs.

The man is obsessed with power and control, terrorizes his partner, erodes her self-esteem, wields financial control and is jealous and possessive. This type of abuser is almost impossible to change, Dr. Wexler says.

The vast majority of abusers are men who perpetrate what is known as Situational Couple Violence. They aren't out to dominate their partner. But they have very poor relationship skills and very quick triggers.


A round of typical anger-management training isn't enough to help these men. They need to commit to a comprehensive batterer intervention program, often going at least once a week for four months to a year.

Experts say the best of these programs pair education with psychotherapy in a small group setting. The men learn communication skills. And they learn how to think differently about the situation they are in, how to change sexist ideas and how to tolerate conflict in a relationship without seeing it as an insult to their manhood.

"To sit in a room and see men talking in ways that broaden a definition of what men can do, that is a key part of the change process," Dr. Wexler says.

Men who successfully reform "are at a stage where they can accept that they have a problem and are motivated to make change," says Dr. Edleson, of the University of California, Berkeley.

A major factor in most of these men's motivation is their desire to save their relationship, says Barbara Gilin, a licensed clinical social worker and associate clinical professor for social work education at Widener University in Chester, Pa., who has worked with intimate-partner violence victims and their abusers for 35 years.

"The longer the women can hold out not living with the partner, the more motivated the partner is to change, she says. "They are so afraid they will lose their woman."

Dr. Wexler says that about half of men who go through the treatment program do so while continuing their romantic relationship, while half separate or split with their partner. Some of the men who split with their partner eventually restart the relationship successfully or form a new relationship.

The odds of successful change go up for these men when five other factors are present, Ms. Gilin says:

They feel bad or guilty about harming their partner. About 25% of men never feel guilty, Ms. Gilin says. "And there is a whole middle ground where there is some guilt and then it takes some time in the group to really start to understand that they are responsible," she says.
They take full responsibility for their actions and don't blame their partner.
They are motivated to change their values and be a different, better person.
They are willing to examine the effect abuse in their childhood had on them.
They understand that intimidating and bullying behaviors need to be stopped, along with physical violence.
"What I and other people look for in that first moment is the degree of real remorse and how much he takes responsibility for 100% of what he did," Ms. Gilin says. "And the main factor that determines whether a man is going to change is whether he sticks to the program."

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

quote:

A major factor in most of these men's motivation is their desire to save their relationship, says Barbara Gilin, a licensed clinical social worker and associate clinical professor for social work education at Widener University in Chester, Pa., who has worked with intimate-partner violence victims and their abusers for 35 years.

"The longer the women can hold out not living with the partner, the more motivated the partner is to change, she says. "They are so afraid they will lose their woman."

Still though, fair enough.

I am not trying to deny that Ray Rice can change. What bothers me is the idea that she should stay around and feel socially or religiously pressured to do so. Women die every year from that, and I worry about the message it sends when a woman in a high profile abuse case "stays with her man" when the consequences of it have been apparent in many different situations.

But hey I am an SJW hugbox or whatever.

Mister Fister
May 17, 2008

D&D: HASBARA SQUAD
KILL-GORE


I love the smell of dead Palestinians in the morning.
You know, one time we had Gaza bombed for 26 days
(and counting!)

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Still though, fair enough.

I am not trying to deny that Ray Rice can change. What bothers me is the idea that she should stay around and feel socially or religiously pressured to do so. Women die every year from that, and I worry about the message it sends when a woman in a high profile abuse case "stays with her man" when the consequences of it have been apparent in many different situations.

But hey I am an SJW hugbox or whatever.

I didn't say this was an SJW hugbox, but threads like these mimic them very closely.

There's no evidence that Ray Rice is some out of control psychopath out to control every aspect of Janay's life, there's a distinction between different types of abusers:

quote:

There are different types of intimate-partner abusers, experts say. A subtype often referred to in the field as the Intimate Partner Terrorist is the "worst of the worst," says David B. Wexler, executive director of the Relationship Training Institute in San Diego, a nonprofit organization that designs and runs domestic violence treatment programs.

The man is obsessed with power and control, terrorizes his partner, erodes her self-esteem, wields financial control and is jealous and possessive. This type of abuser is almost impossible to change, Dr. Wexler says.

The vast majority of abusers are men who perpetrate what is known as Situational Couple Violence. They aren't out to dominate their partner. But they have very poor relationship skills and very quick triggers.

Again, nuance. We don't know which one Ray is, only his wife and his therapist does. Also, there's was more public pressure for her to leave than stay.

Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009

by FactsAreUseless

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Still though, fair enough.

I am not trying to deny that Ray Rice can change. What bothers me is the idea that she should stay around and feel socially or religiously pressured to do so. Women die every year from that, and I worry about the message it sends when a woman in a high profile abuse case "stays with her man" when the consequences of it have been apparent in many different situations.

But hey I am an SJW hugbox or whatever.

That's fair, but it's also speculation as to whether she's doing it because of social or religious pressure, or because she loves him and wants to make it work. If they can go to counseling and get over this, and nothing of the sort ever happens again, and they live their lives perfectly happy, that's a great scenario. I just hope she's got a solid support network that she listens to who can help her make the right decisions as Ray gets help. There's definitely a time when you need to walk, and a lot of people struggle with that, because the abuser can appear to be, or even really be trying hard to stop, but for the occasional "relapse." You can't stay with someone if they have inner demons like that, even if they genuinely seem to love you, because any incident could be the one that ends with you dead.

seiferguy
Jun 9, 2005

FLAWED
INTUITION



Toilet Rascal
Assuming he doesn't play in the NFL again (I wouldn't think it's too crazy if that happens considering his age and baggage), would Ray Rice continue to live under a microscope? Say, 5 years down the road, Ray Rice assaults Janay again, would the national stage even care? The whole situation has brought a lot to light with the NFL, but it's probably all for show.

pangstrom
Jan 25, 2003

Wedge Regret

seiferguy posted:

Assuming he doesn't play in the NFL again (I wouldn't think it's too crazy if that happens considering his age and baggage), would Ray Rice continue to live under a microscope? Say, 5 years down the road, Ray Rice assaults Janay again, would the national stage even care? The whole situation has brought a lot to light with the NFL, but it's probably all for show.
Yeah I said when the tape came out that he wouldn't play in the NFL again, but while he won't live under a microscope it will definitely be news if he assaults Janay again (unless the word doesn't get out at all of course).

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

A city that was to live by night after the wilderness had passed. A city that was to forge out of steel and blood-red neon its own peculiar wilderness.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Still though, fair enough.

I am not trying to deny that Ray Rice can change. What bothers me is the idea that she should stay around and feel socially or religiously pressured to do so. Women die every year from that, and I worry about the message it sends when a woman in a high profile abuse case "stays with her man" when the consequences of it have been apparent in many different situations.

But hey I am an SJW hugbox or whatever.

I don't think anyone said that she should be socially or religiously pressured to stay, but if she makes that decision on her own, then she shouldn't be insulted for choosing to stay on her own, and trying to make it work.

And who cares about what message it sends, it's not Janay Rice's responsibility to be a spokeswoman for domestic abuse, just because she was hit by a famous football player, if she wants to great, but if they want to do the counseling and prayer route then she shouldn't be pressured to sever just because "it sends a bad message".

Not to mention it wouldn't have that large of an effect anyway, like I said, domestic abuse victims in almost all cases need to come to the realization that they need to leave on their own. And that is usually helped along a close support group not some incident by famous people. Because in this case Janay would probably be "fine"(Monetary wise anyway, At least 7 figures) if she decided to sever. Most other victims don't have that luxury.

Dexo fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Dec 1, 2014

wheez the roux
Aug 2, 2004
THEY SHOULD'VE GIVEN IT TO LYNCH

Death to the Seahawks. Death to Seahawks posters.

Alouicious posted:

but ya gently caress one goat

Actually, it's about ethics in football.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!
I do find it weird people are saying we don't know when there is a video and even with that she is obviously trying her best to pretend it didn't happen.

I do not doubt for a second if we didn't have a video she would say it never happened if asked so I have my doubts about her words at the moment.

I don't blame her, these situations are tough and she is probably going through hell tho. But I feel people taking it at face value have ulterior motives and it is a bit gross.

DJExile
Jun 28, 2007


Tim Marchman of Deadspin just laid into Peter King for walking back some of his early claims when the Ray Rice story broke

Intruder
Mar 5, 2003

This is what I get for ignoring this thread

Guys there have been some really lovely posts made in the last couple of pages. Stop it or I'm going to close the thread.

You don't have to one up each other over who's more outraged, nor do you have to decry the SJWs who have the audacity to condemn someone for knocking out his girlfriend just that one time

axeil
Feb 14, 2006
So Deadspin point out something buried in Peter King's column today. Namely, Peter King was directly lied to and manipulated by either the NFL's general counsel, the VP in charge of Labor Relations or by Goodell himself.

http://deadspin.com/peter-king-is-a-goddamn-embarrassment-1665259136

Deadspin posted:

SI.com's Peter King, the most powerful NFL writer in the business, sees his job as flattering other powerful people so that they'll allow him to uncritically pass on whatever they'd like to have passed on. He's very good at it, as the incredible correction buried a couple of thousand words into his latest column shows.

In the second item in the column, King lays out five thoughts and thought-like objects inspired by former federal judge Barbara Jones's recent determination that the NFL overstepped its authority in dropping Ray Rice into a black hole. The first four are unobjectionable. The fifth is this:

I quoted a source in July as saying Janay Rice made a moving case for leniency for Ray Rice during the June 16 meeting. My source was incorrect. According to Judge Jones' report, Janay Rice was asked only one question during the hearing—how she felt—and she cried and said, "I'm just ready for it to be over." I regret the error, and should have vetted the story further before publishing the account of one source.

The reference is, apparently, to this column, in which Janay Rice's "moving case for leniency" is presented as the single most important reason why Roger Goodell suspended Ray Rice for only two games for knocking his wife out in a hotel elevator. It's presented there not just in broad terms, but in concrete, detailed ones:

"Rice's wife, a source said, made a moving and apparently convincing case to Goodell during a June 16 hearing at Goodell's office in Manhattan—attended by Rice, GM Ozzie Newsome, club president Dick Cass of Baltimore; and Goodell, Jeff Pash and Adolpho Birch of the league—that the incident in the hotel elevator was a one-time event, and nothing physical had happened in their relationship before or since. She urged Goodell, the source said, to not ruin Rice's image and career with his sanctions."

(Note the language here: The phrase "apparently convincing" and the word "urged" subtly present harsh punishment as a default position that Janay Rice argued Goodell out of. King is essentially saying that if you think Ray Rice got off too light, you should take it up with his wife.)

This didn't actually happen, though! In her own account of things, in an ESPN as-told-to over which she retained editorial control, Janay Rice is clear on exactly what did:

"I really didn't think they would ask me any questions, but I was asked one. I was surprised I was asked anything at all. One of the NFL executives asked me how I felt about everything. And I broke down in tears. I could hardly get a word out. I just told him that I was ready for this to be over."

There is no way to reconcile this with what King's source described over the summer. And as with a previous King correction involving an element of the Rice case, the journalistic error he's admitting to here is so basic as to be literally unbelievable.

The most generous version of what happened here would involve King getting caught up in a game of telephone, with some lower-level NFL minion's distorted version of what happened in the meeting between the Rices and league and team brass ending up in King's column. This would show King as being willing to run a key detail related by some random flunky without checking it in any way with the principals, who aren't exactly strangers to King. It would paint him as a complete incompetent, and a moron.

It's much more likely, of course, that someone who was in the room—one of the three NFL officials or two Baltimore Ravens officials King places there—lied to him. What he published, after all, wasn't an incorrect version of what actually happened, but something that never happened at all. And it had a very clear beneficiary, allowing Roger Goodell to be seen not as issuing a punishment that showed the NFL doesn't care about domestic violence, but as showing deference to the wishes of a victim.

King, in this version of events, was used as the instrument of a smear campaign, almost certainly by either the league's commissioner, its general counsel, or its senior vice president in charge of labor policy. That's a big goddamn story! A serious reporter, you'd think, would want to expose the powerful people who used his column against Janay Rice. Even allowing a more generous interpretation, you'd think anyone with any curiosity at all would want to know how exactly Janay Rice telling NFL higher-ups she just wanted it all to be over morphed into her pleading for mercy on her husband's behalf.

You don't get to be Peter King by being serious or even curious, though; you get there by doing your job.

If Peter King was an actual journalist he'd be screaming about this from the rooftops, not burying it in his column.

DJExile
Jun 28, 2007


Nobody reads my posts :(

Ishin
Dec 31, 2008

~the animatronic spirit of
so many forgotten waves
Today's BS report is basically an hour long victory lap for Simmons because of being suspended after calling Goodell a liar (I know it was more for calling out his bosses) earlier this year.

axeil
Feb 14, 2006

DJExile posted:

Nobody reads my posts :(

I didn't realize it was the same story :smith:

Hot Diggity!
Apr 3, 2010

SKELITON_BRINGING_U_ON.GIF

Mister Fister posted:

Literally every SJW hugbox ever.

hahahahahahahaahah go back to the hellthread you gamergate obsessed nerd

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!

TubeStank posted:

hahahahahahahaahah go back to the hellthread you gamergate obsessed nerd

Oh this makes a lot of sense.

SunshineDanceParty
Feb 7, 2006

One Road. Two Friends. One Ass.

TubeStank posted:

hahahahahahahaahah go back to the hellthread you gamergate obsessed nerd

Haha thank you for pointing this out. I would have never read his posts in that thread otherwise and they're hilarious.

Brannock
Feb 9, 2006

by exmarx
Fallen Rib
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11974930/baltimore-ravens-say-tell-ray-rice-wife-janay-apologize-domestic-violence-incident

quote:

OWINGS MILLS, Md. -- The Baltimore Ravens are disputing the claim by Janay Rice, wife of released running back Ray Rice, that the team told her to apologize for her role in the February domestic violence altercation that left her knocked unconscious.

The Ravens' statement comes days after Janay Rice told "Today" that the team gave her and Ray Rice "a general script" of what to say at their press conference in May. She gave ESPN a similar account in a story published last week.

"After Ray informed the Ravens that Janay wanted also to speak at the event, I asked Ray on two different days if Ray wanted me to speak with Janay in advance of the press session. Both times, Ray declined and said: 'She's good. She knows what she wants to say,'" Ravens senior vice president of public relations Kevin Byrne said in a statement released Wednesday evening. "At no time prior to the May 23 session did we provide talking points, a script or suggested script to Janay or speak with her about the press event. We did not recommend or suggest to Ray or Janay that she apologize in any way."

Gerund
Sep 12, 2007

He push a man



The Raven's Twitter account deeply regrets the role it played in the incident that night.

Gerund fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Dec 5, 2014

CyberPingu
Sep 15, 2013


If you're not striving to improve, you'll end up going backwards.
Janay regrets and deeply apologises getting in the way of Ray's wayward fist as it flailed around.

Ishin
Dec 31, 2008

~the animatronic spirit of
so many forgotten waves
So wait, you mean Goodell might have been full of poo poo?! I can't believe it.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/12009808/nfl-commissioner-roger-goodell-testimony-ray-rice-hearing

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Aye Doc
Jul 19, 2007



in addition to the lying, he comes off as either the laziest or least competent investigator imaginable. he admits to not even reading articles containing information about the incident, and any question which asked "did you at least try to ____" the answer was a firm "naaaah." guess that's better for his public image than covering it all up

  • Locked thread