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 Take the -2 for extra starvation 
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Oct 15, 2014 22:35
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Welp.
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Oct 15, 2014 22:39
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You're welcome, tarbrush!
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Oct 15, 2014 22:39
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I have the sudden urge to try this donut thing you humans eat so much of. ##Eat the last donut
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Oct 15, 2014 22:41
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Welp. That was the least deserved win I've ever had in BSG. Cheers Mills 
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Oct 15, 2014 22:45
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Food decreases by 1 to 0. Mod plays PIL ∞ - Run Massive Interference, ignoring all the drat raider attacks. The jump prep track increases twice to AUTO JUMP. The Fleet jumps! Despite the temptation of Misjump, Dictator Tom chooses: Gas Cloud - Distance: 1, Fuel: 0. Admiral looks at top 3 Crisis Cards, then places them on the top or bottom in any order. Tom amuses himself looking through the Crisis deck while the Fleet starves. The Cylons win! Athena reveals: Cylon Allegiance: Subjects for Study (4+ pop) Cylon Allegiance: Fight with Honor (3 TRE in hand) Human Allegiance: Remove the Threat (4+ damaged/destroyed vipers) Athena cannot reveal: Human Allegiance: Pressure Their Leaders (5- morale) Athena wins!
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Oct 15, 2014 22:46
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Oct 15, 2014 22:47
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I'd like to thank Max for being such an awesome and patient moderator. He must have replied to something like 50 PMs of me asking questions while I tried to remember how to play this game.
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Oct 15, 2014 22:50
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So, uh. I'm going to call that game "inconclusive" as far as this version of DEFCON goes. I'll have more  and information on decks later tonight.
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Oct 15, 2014 22:51
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GG.
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Oct 15, 2014 22:51
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I would also like to thank max for dealing with my PM spam.
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Oct 15, 2014 22:51
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Max Peck posted:So, uh. I'm going to call that game "inconclusive" as far as this version of DEFCON goes. I'll have more Thanks very much for modding, would've been nice to test DEFCON some more. As far as new DEFCON goes I did not like the "Reset to 11" part of it. It was a bit silly how long we went between CACs. You're absolutely guaranteed three safe turns, and more likely 5. Then when you factor in "No CAC but automatic DEFCON in blue spaces", CACs become rare and predictable. If having the possibility of bunched and/or unpredictable is too cylon friendly, I think there needs to be other ways of balancing it. Loved the new CAG interactions with DEFCON.
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Oct 15, 2014 22:56
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Yeah I felt like the CACs were too far apart too. But I guess a perfect storm ended up happening.
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Oct 15, 2014 22:57
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Someone wanted to be reminded to say something in end-game. I don't remember who.
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Oct 15, 2014 22:58
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DEFCON is certainly not perfect. Our F2F group has been in hiatus recently and the rules stopped at a point where we weren't quite happy with them yet (though the "no roll in blue" thing, the latest change, worked better than I expected this game). That said, there's a reason we've pushed it in this direction. We wanted a BSG that was more interesting to play for more players more consistently. CAC clumps, or the lack thereof, are the prime determinant in a vanilla game. We didn't like that because it led to a lot of really boring human cruises to victory when no big clump of CACs showed up (or it showed early, before both Cylons were in play, and the humans survived it with minimal damage). The frequency of these flat, dull, boring-but-still-multi-hour games is what led us to get burnt out on BSG. I thought BSG was over and done with forever until DEFCON showed up online and we started tinkering with it. Increased consistency in CACs helps solve the boring runaway game syndrome. However, we also wanted to tackle the problem roles: roles we saw as, well, really dull. Pilots in particular are boring to play in vanilla. The characters might be powerful (hi Apollo), but the role itself was peripheral and lacked any subtlety (as was made obvious by the later printing of balanced and/or underpowered pilot characters in later expansions). Making pilots more interesting meant adding potential deception to the CAG role and encouraging space combat rather than comm-juggling and FTL. Enter the whole DEFCON "board" mechanic. I don't consider this game particularly representative of the DEFCON variant though. We only played ~2.5 jump cycles out of the usual ~5 (potentially more with Earth - I've never played DEFCON with Earth before). This game did not fully display how the DEFCON endgame plays out if you don't kill raiders. In my mind we were already dead due to the situation in space, food or not (I was really, really hoping to draw toaster in sleeper). This is pretty normal with a group that's new to this variant, but I wish we'd gotten further to demonstrate what will happen when the military situation snowballs out of control. Think of it like the treachery snowball that people were so freaked out about when Daybreak first hit the streets: it's a mechanic that can obliterate the humans once the snowball starts rolling, but it's also a mechanic can be controlled if you stay on top of it. Usually it does get out of control sometime post-sleeper, due to reveals coming up during a tough spot, at which point it's a desperate sprint to the finish. We, uh, were not likely to successfully sprint 6 more distance this game (though we could have made an interesting go at it if Athena had been human aligned). Increasing the number of CACs is suicide. Keep in mind that we started playtesting this variant with much more frequent attacks (initially it was just +4 to the die every time an attack happened - that, uh, didn't last long). We've steadily dialed it back because increasing the frequency of CACs means that non-military characters don't ever get to play their game. I like playing the military roles, and they needed a buff in vanilla, but overemphasizing them is a very real danger - one that might still be a problem in the rules we just played. It's okay to have the occasional jump cycle without a CAC. It's okay to have the rare jump cycle with two CACs. It's just not okay to have one of those situations occur multiple jump cycles in a row. That last situation is what leads to one-sided games (which are extremely dull if they're human favored and mitigated only by the hilarity factor when Cylon favored). If anything mechanical, I think this particular game hinged on Daybreak CL motives. A sizable set of Cylon allegiance motives are extremely easy to satisfy, which pushes the CL to just murder the humans outright rather than balancing the game out out so that it goes down to the wire. This is a known problem. It's also a particularly unfortunate issue because the idea of CLs is awesome (and a human-aligned CL is usually a blast to play with). We've actually spent a kind of crazy amount of time re-writing them for our group, but because of player counts and then the aforementioned hiatus in our local group we haven't managed to test them appropriately. 
Corbeau fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 15, 2014 23:54
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Hey Corbeau nice post! I have a good deal to say in my head but I'm still stuck phone posting so I'll give the highlights: The main concern I have under the current iteration of the rules is that it will too often turn into "draw a CAC at the beginning of each jump cycle", especially if humans are unlucky with jump prep icons. I also felt that space combat snowballed out of control too quickly in spite of a good faith effort from myself and team human to manage it. We dedicated a lot of actions to space management (although many were sub - optimal) and still wound up with max raiders pre-sleeper. I did get very lucky with motives but I was actually leaning pro-human with that last play. I wasn't expecting that food opportunity to come up and was trying to tank morale while minimizing pop loss (I had the pop motive from the start). I was extremely paranoid about pop loss from the beginning in a long DEFCON game and therefore dedicated most of my actions to space combat and decided to try and gain pop with the reunite the fleet crisis.
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Oct 16, 2014 00:18
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OhHiMaahk posted:Whoops, I probably should have clarified that before my decision I didn't actually think to mention it to you when sending you the Crisis cards because they were both Activate Raiders. Sorry if it mattered Mills posted:I'd like to thank Max for being such an awesome and patient moderator. He must have replied to something like 50 PMs of me asking questions while I tried to remember how to play this game. OhHiMaahk posted:I would also like to thank max for dealing with my PM spam. Hey, I'd way rather deal with questions than have things go wrong. Corbeau posted:I don't consider this game particularly representative of the DEFCON variant though. We only played ~2.5 jump cycles out of the usual ~5 (potentially more with Earth - I've never played DEFCON with Earth before). This game did not fully display how the DEFCON endgame plays out if you don't kill raiders. In my mind we were already dead due to the situation in space, food or not (I was really, really hoping to draw toaster in sleeper). This is pretty normal with a group that's new to this variant, but I wish we'd gotten further to demonstrate what will happen when the military situation snowballs out of control. Think of it like the treachery snowball that people were so freaked out about when Daybreak first hit the streets: it's a mechanic that can obliterate the humans once the snowball starts rolling, but it's also a mechanic can be controlled if you stay on top of it. Usually it does get out of control sometime post-sleeper, due to reveals coming up during a tough spot, at which point it's a desperate sprint to the finish. We, uh, were not likely to successfully sprint 6 more distance this game (though we could have made an interesting go at it if Athena had been human aligned). I agree you were pretty much already dead due to the situation in space; my money had been on Galactica exploding right up until Athena OPGed. (Especially since I knew the remaining Cylon reveal was Can Damage Galactica.) Without scouting and with a human admiral you had another 4 jump cycles to go. Corbeau posted:If anything mechanical, I think this particular game hinged on Daybreak CL motives. A sizable set of Cylon allegiance motives are extremely easy to satisfy, which pushes the CL to just murder the humans outright rather than balancing the game out out so that it goes down to the wire. This is a known problem. It's also a particularly unfortunate issue because the idea of CLs is awesome (and a human-aligned CL is usually a blast to play with). We've actually spent a kind of crazy amount of time re-writing them for our group, but because of player counts and then the aforementioned hiatus in our local group we haven't managed to test them appropriately. Yeah, to be honest I'd been eying those all game (the spreadsheet decides on all four from the start). Fight with Honor and Remove the Threat were the two post-sleeper ones, and Fight with Honor is already pretty obviously a freebie for Athena... and then the entire fleet got shot down. Oops. I'd be very interested in testing alternate motives.
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Oct 16, 2014 02:32
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It's fine, I'll work with it!
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So who is going to break it to the main thread that a game was lost on Food?
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Oct 16, 2014 02:34
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Not it.
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Oct 16, 2014 02:35
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Hoshi was a Cylon from the start; Tom was a sleeper agent (and yes, it was the card Mills passed to him). Buried cards: pre:Destination Turn Name 1.5 Barren Planet 2.2 Cylon Refinery 4.1 Deep Space 5.1 Misjump pre:Crisis Turn Name 1.3 Cylon Virus 3.3 Galactica Falling Apart 4.3 Riots(B) 5.1 Crippled Raider  I may fix these up and add details later.The accusations being leveled at Roslin for keeping Food Shortage amused me; keeping Riots (B) (which is the non-jump-prep version) was maybe the better move in hindsight but wasn't going to make you lot any happier. pre:Mutiny Assume Command Clipped Wings Ruined Reputation Weapons Armed Set the Agenda POL 1 - Consolidate Power TAC 1 - Launch Scout TRE 3 - A Better Machine LEA 1 - Executive Order Next 10 Crisis cards: Crash Landing Enemy of my Enemy Reactor Critical Forced Water Mining Low Supplies Loss of a Friend Secret Meetings Cylon Screenings Unidentified Ship The Olympic Carrier Next 6 CACs: Boarding Parties Lockdown The Guardians Raiding Party Trial by Fire Thirty-Three Mission deck: Attack on the Colony Rescue Hera The Red Stripes Destroy the Hub Needs of the People Cylon Civil War The Search for Home Quorum hand: Release Cylon Mugshots Presidential Pardon Probation Inspirational Speech Unsavory Connections (I was so looking forward to watching this get used for food; alas) Next 5 Quorum cards: Assign Arbitrator Inspirational Speech Assign Mission Specialist Inspirational Speech Authorization of Brutal Force Next 6 Mutiny cards: Blackmail Selfish Act Betrayal of Trust Peaceful Resistance Panic Impeachment Tom's mutiny in hand was The Strong Survive - Action: Draw a Civilian Ship to destroy. Then, increase the Jump Preparation track by 1 and remove this card from the game. Next Super Crisis was: Bomb on Colonial One Hoshi's SCC in hand was Inbound Nukes.
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Oct 16, 2014 02:50
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Should I have played any differently?
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Oct 16, 2014 02:52
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Well, uh. I can't argue with results. But I was secretly hoping that when you OPGed, one of the activations would be to use Tactical Plot to bury whatever mission it was that tarbrush had wanted to keep.
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Oct 16, 2014 02:55
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Binkenstein posted:So who is going to break it to the main thread that a game was lost on Food? 
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Oct 16, 2014 03:05
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I think Humans were kinda on the back foot from the start, once Mills managed to pick up the Presidency without much of a worry. Had he not, the Arrest Order would have made the soft-hard reveal gap a lot shorter and prevented us from worrying about the Admiral's Quarters quite so much. There was a Presidential Pardon in there too.
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Oct 16, 2014 04:48
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Mills posted:Someone wanted to be reminded to say something in end-game. I don't remember who. That was me. I was kinda proud of the brig test that landed you in jail. I had a totally hairbrained scheme to try to spring myself from the brig and sabotage my own check. The Force Their Hand in there was mine; either i was going to play something that swung the difference into getting out at the last moment - or the exploit weakness in my hand to brig mills with mutiny.
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Oct 16, 2014 05:35
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Oh. I thought that was obvious based on what you played in!
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Oct 16, 2014 05:39
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TheParadigm posted:Maybe.
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Oct 16, 2014 05:42
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Oct 16, 2014 05:43
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