Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
lightinwater
Jan 1, 2014

CrazyTolradi posted:

Running around in circles is no one's idea of a fun time.

They seem to like personal attacks though

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Splode
Jun 18, 2013

put some clothes on you little freak

Gough Suppressant posted:

claiming that it isn't prohibition is honestly at best semantic and really dumb

If you criminalise the purchase, you won't get brothels run in an above board manner, keeping themselves on a register and open for compliance inspections. Because if they do, their clientele will know they are liable to be arrested at any given time by the cops. You'll have the whole industry move to either underground illegal brothels run by organized crime, or solo/small group operators working independently.

If you can give a reason as to why this wouldn't happen I'd love to hear it.

Personally I don't see what you gain from the nordic model that you couldn't gain by strengthening penalties on johns who go to places other than licensed brothels currently.

Good work reading the post where I said exactly this muyb!

lightinwater posted:

You have no evidence of my ignorance of either not knowing trafficking or what the Nordic model is. I wasn't really up to date with Australian sex work laws but that hardly matters when discussing the Nordic model vs legalisation. I've explained the drug reference and said it was needless and yet I still get needless personal attacks

She does have evidence, she has your posts in this thread. If you're going to repeat your same arguments over and over without addressing the responses you're going to be called an idiot.

CrazyTolradi
Oct 2, 2011

It feels so good to be so bad.....at posting.

I have no idea what side of the argument you guys are on now (it's really hard to keep track), but wouldn't the best way to understand how to handle the situation be talking to people who are involved in the sex trade and people who are victims of trafficking?

Fruity Gordo
Aug 5, 2013

Neurotic, Impotent Rage!
It's pretty easy to keep up with me http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3678014&userid=203757&perpage=40&pagenumber=3

If you'd read and understood the bloody discussion being had you'd realise that 'talking to people who are involved in the sex trade and people who are victims of trafficking' is easier said than done and subject to layers of manipulation. I have no beef admitting that I'm biased against the sex trade and Scarlet Alliance because of what I saw when i was doing outreach five years ago. You never hear the same admission of bias from Scarlet, which by its own admission does not represent trafficked and exploited women, and yet sex work survivors and people who have worked with trafficking survivors and women still at risk who speak out against the normalisation of sex work are always labelled as whorephobes by Scarlet when they offer any public criticism at all.

Fruity Gordo
Aug 5, 2013

Neurotic, Impotent Rage!

Splode posted:

Good work reading the post where I said exactly this muyb!


She does have evidence, she has your posts in this thread. If you're going to repeat your same arguments over and over without addressing the responses you're going to be called an idiot.

Oh i forgot actually, your ad hoc critique of the nordic Model was addressed in the first link i posted lel

quote:

6. The Nordic Model doesn’t work / pushes prostitution “underground”.

The contention that the Nordic Model has not reduced demand for prostitution is one often repeated without evidence, but occasionally it is claimed that the Swedish government’s own review of their legislation showed the failure of the Model. As legal scholar Max Waltman has demonstrated, it did no such thing. Research commissioned by the Swedish government for its official review showed that street prostitution had halved.

“Ha!” The critics say, “That study employed a flawed methodology and prostitution has just gone underground.” Perhaps, but that overlooks other sources, including research indicating the number of people in Sweden buying sex has fallen and that police report having intercepted communications from traffickers declaring that Sweden is a “bad market.”

It’s also worth considering what “underground” is supposed to mean in this context, as in legalized and decriminalized systems, like some in Australia, “underground” is taken to mean street prostitution. So if prostitution has moved off the streets, where has it gone? Online and indoors, is the assertion of critics, which is quite odd given that advocates of legalization frequently tout the benefits of indoor prostitution.
http://feministcurrent.com/8347/10-myths-about-prostitution-trafficking-and-the-nordic-model/ linkus embedded in the article


this is the amazing thing that keeps happening in every online convo i have about the nordic model, and it's why i can't reject it. i post this one article, which the author wrote out of frustration at being constantly attacked for having the temerity to be ok with the nordic model, and crickets. if the nordic model is so indefensible, it should be a loving breeze to own the gently caress out of that post. and yet, no one has

Fruity Gordo fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Nov 30, 2014

Birb Katter
Sep 18, 2010

BOATS STOPPED
CARBON TAX AXED
TURNBULL AS PM
LIBERALS WILL BE RE-ELECTED IN A LANDSLIDE

Fruity Gordo posted:

Oh i forgot actually, your ad hoc critique of the nordic Model was addressed in the first link i posted lel
http://feministcurrent.com/8347/10-myths-about-prostitution-trafficking-and-the-nordic-model/ linkus embedded in the article


this is the amazing thing that keeps happening in every online convo i have about the nordic model, and it's why i can't reject it. i post this one article, which the author wrote out of frustration at being constantly attacked for having the temerity to be ok with the nordic model, and crickets. if the nordic model is so indefensible, it should be a loving breeze to own the gently caress out of that post. and yet, no one has

Scandinavians are a nation of socialists and Hitler was a National Socialist. Checkmate.

Smegmatron
Apr 23, 2003

I hate to advocate emptyquoting or shitposting to anyone, but they've always worked for me.

CrazyTolradi posted:

I have no idea what side of the argument you guys are on now (it's really hard to keep track), but wouldn't the best way to understand how to handle the situation be talking to people who are involved in the sex trade and people who are victims of trafficking?

Why would you talk to actual people when you have the option of playing Lefter Than Thou on internet forums? Are you saying that taking cheap shots at people you disagree with is less pragmatic than actually explaining or discussing the issue at hand? How would taking the time to explain the nuance of a complicated issue to someone with a cursory understanding of it in any way compare to the proven positive effect of being dismissive and smug as gently caress?

You're weird. Get help.

Those On My Left
Jun 25, 2010

Fruity, thanks for this discussion, it's been interesting to read.

lightinwater
Jan 1, 2014

Fruity Gordo posted:

Oh i forgot actually, your ad hoc critique of the nordic Model was addressed in the first link i posted lel
http://feministcurrent.com/8347/10-myths-about-prostitution-trafficking-and-the-nordic-model/ linkus embedded in the article


this is the amazing thing that keeps happening in every online convo i have about the nordic model, and it's why i can't reject it. i post this one article, which the author wrote out of frustration at being constantly attacked for having the temerity to be ok with the nordic model, and crickets. if the nordic model is so indefensible, it should be a loving breeze to own the gently caress out of that post. and yet, no one has

Yeah you don't get to post links and claim victory. Clearly this issue is not yet decided.

freebooter
Jul 7, 2009

I voted for Kathleen Maltzahn because I'm not up to date with the intricacies of the Nordic model and also who the gently caress are these one-issue voters for whom prostitution regulation is the number one priority issue.

T-1000
Mar 28, 2010
I clicked on the "Clearly" link in the hopes it would be a concise summary/rebuttal like the one Fruity posted, and was disappointed. Is there one that specifically addresses some of the things Fruity Gordo's link says? The BBC story linked from Clearly is mostly about how the law just drives prostitution underground and increases danger and doesn't reduce trafficiking, with little/no evidence to back any of it up.

freebooter posted:

I voted for Kathleen Maltzahn because I'm not up to date with the intricacies of the Nordic model and also who the gently caress are these one-issue voters for whom prostitution regulation is the number one priority issue.
Some people find it really, really, really important. How many? No idea but I suspect it's pretty small.

lightinwater
Jan 1, 2014

T-1000 posted:

I clicked on the "Clearly" link in the hopes it would be a concise summary/rebuttal like the one Fruity posted, and was disappointed. Is there one that specifically addresses some of the things Fruity Gordo's link says? The BBC story linked from Clearly is mostly about how the law just drives prostitution underground and increases danger and doesn't reduce trafficiking, with little/no evidence to back any of it up.

Clearly I didn't put enough thought into which words contained which links, not(a sex workers blog) is probably closest to what you want but aside from issue(a BBC news report) they're all pretty substantial and fair reading

freebooter
Jul 7, 2009

T-1000 posted:

I clicked on the "Clearly" link in the hopes it would be a concise summary/rebuttal like the one Fruity posted, and was disappointed. Is there one that specifically addresses some of the things Fruity Gordo's link says? The BBC story linked from Clearly is mostly about how the law just drives prostitution underground and increases danger and doesn't reduce trafficiking, with little/no evidence to back any of it up.
Some people find it really, really, really important. How many? No idea but I suspect it's pretty small.

I was using Twitter to try to get up-to-date info about the count, and it was like 80% people celebrating that "frigid oval office" didn't get in. Which I'm sure is not representative of the electorate at large, it was just weird. Or are there quite a few brothels in Richmond? I thought they were mostly in South Melbourne.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

T-1000
Mar 28, 2010

lightinwater posted:

Clearly I didn't put enough thought into which words contained which links, not(a sex workers blog) is probably closest to what you want but aside from issue(a BBC news report) they're all pretty substantial and fair reading
I was kind of hoping there was a more focused argument that sought to knock down at least one of the ten assertions in Fruity Gordo's link - from skimming a few of the links, the best thing I picked up is that Sweden being a less attractive target for traffickers isn't entirely cut-and-dried. I'll be honest, I'm not going to read a seventeen page report on prostitution legislation, let alone several; I'm trying to pick the brains of people more engaged and knowledgeable than I am.

The fact that the issue is not yet decided is beyond doubt - that's why we're having this discussion. The meta-issue that sort of spurred this is that some people don't think it's not-yet decided, they're of the view that the "nordic" model is so bad that anyone who supports it is an anti-sex-worker monster. Hence:

freebooter posted:

I was using Twitter to try to get up-to-date info about the count, and it was like 80% people celebrating that "frigid oval office" didn't get in. Which I'm sure is not representative of the electorate at large, it was just weird. Or are there quite a few brothels in Richmond? I thought they were mostly in South Melbourne.
As has been mentioned earlier, the Sex Party kicked up a fuss about a month before the election based on Kathleen Maltzahn's views on prostitution legislation, including her support for the nordic model. A large proportion of the people talking about it on twitter probably weren't in Victoria, let alone in her electorate. As has been described earlier, there were people in her own party who wanted her to lose. It's kind of messy.

I think I'll have to bow out at this point, I have a probation incoming to force me to get back to work, thanks everyone for all the info.

  • Locked thread