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Rodatose posted:agreed. I shoulda said that that was a recent example of one way it goes down, not The Way, sorry for unclearness In that last piece, people living there for thirty years probably aren't gentrifiers
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Nov 29, 2014 16:41
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This a silly question. Most Americans, northern, southern, or western, have racist attitudes. Many of them aren't budding KKK members, either: they're ordinary folks like you and me that think racism is wrong. Yeah, there are those that'll sit down and yell racial slurs, but they aren't the majority of American racists. Most racist Americans don't like hate speech. They see themselves as color-blind, thinking that race has nothing to do with anything in America today, and that we've solved racism. And yet they're all racists. This is because they're systematically biased against minorities (especially blacks). They speak in coded language they themselves don't recognize as racist. Look at the reaction to Ferguson. Yeah, there's a bunch of out-and-out slurs and racism, but I bet there's a lot of talk about 'culture' and riots and how it's a shame that they keep rioting when The System Works (TM) (or even when the system doesn't work, because it harms their cause). Hell, talking about black Americans as a monolithic bloc, and how each black person represents their whole race is yet another form of racism. Yet none of this is conscious. We've got enough evidence that says that you can have racism without conscious intent, or even without maliciousness. But in the US, we've codified this into law. Drug sentencing laws are hosed up because of it (notably, they're getting better). Drug testing for welfare is just another way of targeting black people, same with voter ID. America is as segregated as it's ever been. You've got a better chance to get a job as a white person with a felon than a black person without a felony. And since education is funded with property taxes, it just turns out that students from impoverished neighborhoods (which are predominately minority neighborhoods) go to schools with less cash. Look at student loan applications: they ask if you've been convicted of a felony (including drug felonies). These by and large disqualify you from federal student aid, which means you can't afford to go to college. And hell, it's not all even that veiled. 'Scientific' racism is still alive and well! In the mid-90s, there was a fear of rising crime rates (they never happened, whee!) and predictions of the emergence of 'superpredators,' who would be criminals incapable of empathy and capable of terrible things. These were apparently inevitable because of demographics, and while I can't find the quote right now, it had a clear racial component and actually influenced (and probably still influences!) policy. Turns out it was the opposite of reality, but being 'tough on crime' has a huge racial component. This had a huge influence on how Giuliani ran NYC. Yet most Americans will look at all the data about racism, all the disparities, and then blame it on anything but racism. It can't be that America is racist! We elected a black President! Well, it turns out that overt racism is not allowed in America anymore, but a lot of Obama voters are probably themselves racist (and just don't know it, or know it and don't like it). That's just how this poo poo works, it's insidious and terrible. Mooseontheloose posted:Though how you deal with each situation would be different. In the Northeast you have to find a way to reintegrate communities post White-flight. Some of that is being taken care of as Gen X and Y move back into the cities but then we run into the gentrification problem. I think there's this idea that you can't be a racist unless you say racial slurs or wear a klan hood, but that's not true at all.
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Nov 29, 2014 17:02
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:This a silly question. Most Americans, northern, southern, or western, have racist attitudes. And this statement itself is indicative of bigotry. How on earth do you quantify "most Americans?" And how does this precise "most" compare to other areas in the world? I wouldn't say that most French people are racist, but racism is far more pervasive in France than it is in the US. Agree or disagree? Change the actors, say "Most Muslims, Arab, Persian, Turkic, or Malay, dislike Jews." How 'bout them apples?
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Nov 29, 2014 17:33
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:This a silly question. Most Americans, northern, southern, or western, have racist attitudes. Many of them aren't budding KKK members, either: they're ordinary folks like you and me that think racism is wrong. How on Earth can you know this? Are you a mind reader?
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Nov 29, 2014 17:37
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spacetoaster posted:How on Earth can you know this? Are you a mind reader? In order: -Most people (around the world) are racist to some degree or another . - KKK membership (and other hate groups) is near or at an all time low, especially compared to 50-100 years ago. - Polling indicates support for "not racist"* activities by large margins (miscegenation, non-segregated water fountains, etc). *Note that these are primarily abstract things, i.e. "this will probably not effect me the random Joe white person that much".
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Nov 29, 2014 17:41
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TheImmigrant posted:And this statement itself is indicative of bigotry. How on earth do you quantify "most Americans?" And how does this precise "most" compare to other areas in the world? I wouldn't say that most French people are racist, but racism is far more pervasive in France than it is in the US. Agree or disagree?  ' question. We're talking about America here.I'm standing by it. Look, the evidence is that Americans (especially white Americans) are by and large racist. There's empirical evidence of it (resume studies and implicit bias studies, along with raw data about disparities in outcomes), and while you could say "that doesn't show a majority of Americans are racist!" I think it's a decent statistical inference to make from the evidence about racism. The existence of bad racist policies while explicitly disavowing racism needs an explanation, too, and (implicit) racism provides a good explanation of it (both historically and psychologically). I'd also think that most people (Americans or otherwise) have some bigoted attitudes and implicit biases, because we've got good evidence of it. computer parts posted:- Polling indicates support for "not racist"* activities by large margins (miscegenation, non-segregated water fountains, etc).
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Nov 29, 2014 17:56
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spacetoaster posted:How on Earth can you know this? Are you a mind reader? Structural racism is a well-studied thing that happens everywhere in the US, not just in the South. I don't recall the huge disparity in prison populations being entirely a southern thing, for example; while the South is the only place that makes black prisoners literally pick cotton in the fields, the North is every bit as bad in disproportionately bad treatment of blacks and other minorities.
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Nov 29, 2014 22:25
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TheImmigrant posted:Then why is it that the United States is much more advanced in race relations than European nations? At least in the US, open expressions of racism lead to social leprosy in most circles, and the legislature and judiciary recognize integration as a goal. Compare this to French or Spanish attitudes toward Maghrebins, or British attitudes toward (South) Asians, or German attitudes toward Turks, and the US comes out looking absolutely enlightened. Don't even get me started on the open, blatant racism of developed countries like Japan or South Korea. To begin with, I am not comparing America to any other nation in my critique of its racial policy. There are, in fact, a great number of countries founded on the corpses of natives and the labor of slaves. One might say that racism is such a systemic problem that it can be found all over the world! The OP, however, was not asking about Japan or Italy or India or Australia, so I didn't really feel like I had to bring this up. That said, I feel that a claim so bold as "there are no nations on the planet that are more progressive on race than the US and Canada" requires some major justification. I legitimately do believe that the north/south divide is overblown, at least in a modern sense. It's a good way to simply deflect criticism by saying "well ok yeah maybe we've got some issues in New York but at least we're not Alabama!". The whole country has definitive problems with racism. Shifting the blame to a certain region might assuage a guilty conscience but it won't make things better. In the past, of course, the dichotomy was much more pronounced because of the legal status of slavery. With that issue settled at the conclusion of the civil war, the country returned to business as usual with overt racism in the south and some truly staggering implicit racism in the north.
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Nov 29, 2014 22:41
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Main Paineframe posted:Structural racism is a well-studied thing that happens everywhere in the US, not just in the South. I don't recall the huge disparity in prison populations being entirely a southern thing, for example; while the South is the only place that makes black prisoners literally pick cotton in the fields, the North is every bit as bad in disproportionately bad treatment of blacks and other minorities. Look, I get that you know whether or not you're racist. But do you say to yourself at night: "Yep, most of the people I saw today are racist because that's how I feel so everyone else must too."
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Nov 29, 2014 22:49
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spacetoaster posted:Look, I get that you know whether or not you're racist. But do you say to yourself at night: "Yep, most of the people I saw today are racist because that's how I feel so everyone else must too." Well if you want to play that game, we can't know for sure what's in people's heads. We can only observe. And it looks like a whole lot of America is racist.
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Nov 30, 2014 00:41
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I encourage black people in both the North and South to emigrate to avoid white racism, as it cannot be cured.
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Nov 30, 2014 01:13
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TheNakedFantastic posted:I encourage black people in both the North and South to emigrate to avoid white racism, as it cannot be cured. That's more or less the reason why they're moving back south.
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Nov 30, 2014 02:05
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This topic reminds me of how LBJ got the Civil Rights Bill passed but couldn't get a housing bill passed because the northern politicians didn't want to be seen as the guy who let black people move in next door. I live in Pittsburgh PA and I've heard stories from decades passed where whites would basically form militias to keep neighborhoods segregated during the great migration.
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Nov 30, 2014 02:16
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So, can we get goons to donate to the Huey P Newton Gun Club? I think that represents one of the best ways forward.
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Nov 30, 2014 02:43
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Zeitgueist posted:Well if you want to play that game, we can't know for sure what's in people's heads. We can only observe. And it looks like a whole lot of America is racist. Can we do the same thing with crime statistics and race?
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Nov 30, 2014 03:25
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As long as we recognize that the laws are written by racists and enforced by racists, then sure.
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Nov 30, 2014 03:26
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Shbobdb posted:As long as we recognize that the laws are written by racists and enforced by racists, then sure. How are laws against robbery and murder racist? Keep in mind, I am absolutely in favor of destroying poor neighborhoods by flooding them with cheap, powerful, and cripplingly addictive drugs, so I am against drug laws.
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Nov 30, 2014 03:29
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Main Paineframe posted:Structural racism is a well-studied thing that happens everywhere in the US, not just in the South. I don't recall the huge disparity in prison populations being entirely a southern thing, for example; while the South is the only place that makes black prisoners literally pick cotton in the fields, the North is every bit as bad in disproportionately bad treatment of blacks and other minorities. That's just because that's where the cotton is. In prisons elsewhere, the inmates are used as cheap labor for pretty much everything else under the sun.
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Nov 30, 2014 03:33
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on the left posted:How are laws against robbery and murder racist? Keep in mind, I am absolutely in favor of destroying poor neighborhoods by flooding them with cheap, powerful, and cripplingly addictive drugs, so I am against drug laws. Check how they are enforced. I can think of a couple of white people who recently murdered some black people and the law said "Meh, no big deal". I can think of plenty of white people who have plundered communities and destroyed generations and then be told that, well, what they did wasn't technically illegal so what can we do? Or what about a Charles Manson-style murder cult where the people calling for murder don't kill a single person but their followers kill innocents all the time. So much so that they had to create a new legal fiction to ensure that they could continue killing people but have it not be considered a crime. The laws against murder and theft are not just unequally applied but are also constructed in such a way that they disadvantage certain populations. Are you trolling or are you really that dumb?
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Nov 30, 2014 04:39
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on the left posted:How are laws against robbery and murder racist? Keep in mind, I am absolutely in favor of destroying poor neighborhoods by flooding them with cheap, powerful, and cripplingly addictive drugs, so I am against drug laws. same here
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Nov 30, 2014 04:45
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:
Keep in mind that most, if not nearly all of the structural racism in the U.S. was embedded for the sole purpose of preventing asset loss, with said "assets" being African slaves. Because losing your financial rear end on a large-scale slave revolt a la Haiti isn't something that the planter classes relished thinking about. Add a touch of class envy and tribalism among poor and working class whites and you have a self-perpetuating system that maintains stark class disparity for immense financial gain. Also, loving over blacks at every opportunity ensures that they'll never get the resources necessary to start loving you over in return. See Wilmington, N.C., circa 1898.
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Nov 30, 2014 05:18
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Yeah, I think this thread's about ready for the predictable bad trolls. *knuckle crack* Bring 'em on!
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Nov 30, 2014 05:21
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Yeah, I think this thread's about ready for the predictable bad trolls. *knuckle crack* Bring 'em on! dnote worry i got this
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Nov 30, 2014 05:22
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Ferdinand the Bull posted:I like all these references to the 50s. Very convincing. north carolina is the south and has been a hotbed of racism forever. catholic americans hate black people.
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Nov 30, 2014 06:33
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The 50s were hardly an eternity ago. There are still people alive who personally knew former slaves. Sixty years isn't poo poo. e. For context: the last living (confirmed) slave died in 1935. The last civil war veteran died in 1956. paranoid randroid fucked around with this message at 06:59 on Nov 30, 2014 |
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Nov 30, 2014 06:52
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