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tsa posted:If oppression from the west is such a huge driver of this why haven't we seen something similar in Vietnam? are you talking about before or after they fought a decades long war to remove western control of their government
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Jan 11, 2015 01:05
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khwarezm posted:Possibly it was because the Degar were a distinct ethnic group that was particularly involved in fighting against Hanoi, also punish South Vietnamese? Plenty actively fought for the cause of a united Vietnam under the Hanoi government, plenty tried to stay low key, plenty fought for the south. But they did punish tons of people that were seen as traitors and tons more people fled the country as boat people, hundreds of thousands in fact, so what more should they have done Effectronica? You run into a problem of dividing the good from the bad and to what degree particular people were supporting one side or the other. With a minority like the Degar its a lot easier to just consider them all tarred by association with the enemy, in most of South Vietnam the people were Kinh, the Vietnamese people that were to be united, punishing all the South Vietnamese who were on the wrong side is not really possible. Additionally I suspect that South Vietnam is a bit more economically and culturally important to the Kinh than the highlands, which was a borderland area inhabited by strange mountain peoples to many. As for the Cham and others I never argued that all of Vietnam's problems with all of its minorities stem from singularly from the war, and even here you've hopelessly simplified things, the very fact that the Khmer Krong fought the Americans initially would do nothing to endear them to the Vietnamese while plenty were still fighting against the NVA while Saigon fell. The Cham are a pretty small group with a distinct culture and, again, religious differences from most Vietnamese, almost all of these groups had campaigns for autonomy at some point, you don't necessarily need a loving war to create frictions, but it really helped with the Degar. Okay. The thing is, I am presenting an argument that the primary reason Vietnam is attacking the Degar, the Cham, and the Khmer ethnicities in Vietnam is because all of them have had substantial ethnic nationalist movements in the past, unlike, say, the Muong or Tay ethnicities. This is because they are attacking one group that supported the Americans, one that opposed the Americans, and one that switched sides, but all three of which coalesced along nationalist lines in the process. Settlement of Kinh into enclaves and assaults on culture and history are also consistent with the idea that the primary purpose is to prevent any attempts at nationalism or secessionism. This is something that is consistent with things many other states have done, and is something that we can also see today in how China treats the Uyghur and Tibetan ethnicities differently from the Manchu or Mulao. The counter-argument you're proposing is that the Degar, and only the Degar, are mistreated because of their alliance with the Americans, but that nationalism explains the other two. I don't know why this is supposed to be more convincing, or even more evil- after all, people are still being repressed either way. Then you accuse me of something frankly incoherent. Judging from what you said and what I wrote, the only explanation is that you believe that the oppressive actions of the Vietnamese government to the Cham and Khmer are irrelevant and not worth caring about, because it's "just" for nationalist-related reasons. Or, alternately, that you're assuming any disagreement means a broad disagreement.
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Jan 12, 2015 16:59
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Effectronica posted:Okay. The thing is, I am presenting an argument that the primary reason Vietnam is attacking the Degar, the Cham, and the Khmer ethnicities in Vietnam is because all of them have had substantial ethnic nationalist movements in the past, unlike, say, the Muong or Tay ethnicities. This is because they are attacking one group that supported the Americans, one that opposed the Americans, and one that switched sides, but all three of which coalesced along nationalist lines in the process. Settlement of Kinh into enclaves and assaults on culture and history are also consistent with the idea that the primary purpose is to prevent any attempts at nationalism or secessionism. This is something that is consistent with things many other states have done, and is something that we can also see today in how China treats the Uyghur and Tibetan ethnicities differently from the Manchu or Mulao. Look this is really the most ridiculous tangent considering the thread's actual subject, so after this post I suggest we take it up in PMs if we really must continue arguing. We're not disagreeing on all that much in this paragraph I see your point about ethnic nationalism, but I think its fair to say that the Vietnam war, which lasted more than a decade and killed millions of people had a huge influence on relations between the Degar and the Kinh. In my mind this is like talking about the tensions between the Serbs and Croats and not bringing up world war 2. I'm arguing that the combination of that ethnic nationalism with the collusion with America helped make the Degar a much more suspicious element in Vietnamese society. Again I have some issues with your examples, particularly the Khmer Krom considering, as I said earlier, there were still some fighting against the NVA when the South fell and as well as that there were serious concerns about the loyalty of the Krom considering the neighboring Khmer Rouge (some fleeing Krom militias tried to make common cause with the Khmer Rouge, which ended very badly for them). The subsequent invasion and war between Cambodia and Vietnam I would suspect went a way towards sinking any reconciliation between the two groups. That seems to line up pretty well with my argument that, wow, wars between peoples are good way to build up resentment between peoples in the future. And then there's another minority we've both neglected to mention, the The Hoa, who were also pretty entrenched in Vietnam's economic life, especially in the South. They were treated like poo poo in the South but didn't have much to gain from the North's communist economy, ironic I guess considering the Hoa biggest ally ended up being China. Many fled with the war's end, the Socialist reformation of the South affected them very badly, assimilation policies became cruder and this was under a government that started off promising that Chinese-Vietnamese would be accepted and protected! Considering how much this was related to fears of loyalty towards an increasingly belligerant China the outbreak of another war prompted even greater emigration of Hoa to China. Finally, with regards to the Cham, FULRO was something that might be worth considering, it was an umbrella group for Cham, Degar and Khmer to fight for their interests, and that often involved fighting the Vietcong and NVA, though also South Vietnam as well depending on the situation, and this was an organisation that was supported by America, China and Cambodia. The Cambodians in particular had their fingers in this pie, this went on for years. So here we are, seems to me like, if you look at the history, Vietnam's mistreated minorities usually have questions about their loyalty to Vietnam especially during one of the many wars, which makes it easier to justify discrimination against them and enforce assimilation. quote:The counter-argument you're proposing is that the Degar, and only the Degar, are mistreated because of their alliance with the Americans, but that nationalism explains the other two. I don't know why this is supposed to be more convincing, or even more evil- after all, people are still being repressed either way.Then you accuse me of something frankly incoherent. Judging from what you said and what I wrote, the only explanation is that you believe that the oppressive actions of the Vietnamese government to the Cham and Khmer are irrelevant and not worth caring about, because it's "just" for nationalist-related reasons. Or, alternately, that you're assuming any disagreement means a broad disagreement. Well, how about I help you out. I don't think that. I made the observation that the Degar supported the Americans with the result being a whole lot of refugees and dead people and currently the Degar are treated like poo poo, none of his this has stopped being true. Let me dig up my post again: khwarezm posted:Vietnam is a far more homogeneous country than Nigeria and in any any event the Minorities that supported the Americans (Montagnards) during the war were very badly treated afterwards with military conflict and masses of refugees fleeing the country so we kind of did see something similar actually! Also 'more evil', 'not worth caring about'? Really, is this what we're doing? I never made any suggestion that the suffering of the Cham and Khmer is somehow worth less than that of the Degar, I've suggested that the Degar suffered badly directly from the war and their actions during it helped make them an unfavorable people to most in Vietnam and its government. I've also now pointed out how some of the minorities we're talking about have also gotten a raw deal after the other Vietnam wars in which their loyalty would be questioned. You on the other hand have said: Effectronica posted:you'd think they'd do more caste minority poo poo like banning Degar from employment or cutting them off from social welfare programs or other things that materially assault the Degar instead of damaging their culture and history. One is more consistent with the idea of brutal revenge than the other.
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Jan 13, 2015 06:05
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Amnesty International released some satellite images. Something like 3,100 structures were destroyed in one city. Top image is from the 2nd, bottom is from the 7th. The red blobs identify healthy vegetation. 
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Jan 15, 2015 06:11
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Jesus Christ. 
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Jan 15, 2015 09:01
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I get so mad about these dudes because the news is right - no one loving cares. I can't get anyone to talk about this in the face of Hebdo. They think Muslim people are weird violent religious aliens (and worth fighting until they're all dead) while Boko is just doing what it's good at (so let's not poke a beehive and make them fix their own poo poo). gently caress me.
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Jan 15, 2015 11:59
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Sooo... Any updates?
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Jan 16, 2015 00:36
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Everyone's still dead.
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Jan 16, 2015 00:41
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my dad posted:Sooo... Any updates? Vote for Goodluck Jonathan in the upcoming elections!
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Jan 16, 2015 00:52
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my dad posted:Sooo... Any updates? Usual stuff, the Nigerian army repelled a Boko Haram attack as did the Cameroonian military. CNN interviewed a Nigerian solider, the Nigerian army are not happy
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Jan 16, 2015 01:01
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Armani posted:I get so mad about these dudes because the news is right - no one loving cares. I can't get anyone to talk about this in the face of Hebdo. They think Muslim people are weird violent religious aliens (and worth fighting until they're all dead) while Boko is just doing what it's good at (so let's not poke a beehive and make them fix their own poo poo). Yes, the standard excuse for Westerners who can't muster interest in this but are tweeting #JeSuisCharlie appears to be "well it's terrible but this happens all the time in Africa" (not just Nigeria of course, but all of Africa). It's hard to see it as anything other than "black lives are dirt to me."
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Jan 16, 2015 01:06
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It's like the school shooting in Pakistan. Even if that happened in a foreign Western country like France, it would have been a big deal. If it happened in the US, holy poo poo, it'd still be front page news. Instead it got glancing coverage and was forgotten in two days.
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Jan 16, 2015 03:24
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kustomkarkommando posted:Usual stuff, the Nigerian army repelled a Boko Haram attack as did the Cameroonian military. CNN interviewed a Nigerian solider, the Nigerian army are not happy That Nigerian army statement does not inspire confidence in their professionalism. 
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Jan 16, 2015 03:41
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katlington posted:That Nigerian army statement does not inspire confidence in their professionalism. The Nigerian army is neither a professional nor organized combat force. Its better to think of it as groupings of militias with loyalty to provencial governors, than it is a cohesive fighting force. And if you think the Nigerian military has an issue with professionalism, you should watch some videos of Nigerian paramilitary forces. I really don't see Nigeria ending BH's insurgency without a genocide at this point, especially as oil revenues continue to shrink and offshore energy production declines.
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Jan 16, 2015 05:59
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New Division posted:Vote for Goodluck Jonathan in the upcoming elections! 
i say swears online fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Jan 16, 2015 |
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Jan 16, 2015 06:07
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quote:BORNO, Nigeria — According to insider reports obtained by Duffel Blog, leaders for the terrorist group Boko Haram have called an emergency meeting to determine how many more murders, rapes and kidnappings it will take before anyone in the international community will start giving a poo poo. http://www.duffelblog.com/2015/01/boko-haram/#ixzz3P8R8F8CY
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Jan 18, 2015 03:13
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It's not even true that we aren't doing anything though, the US sent advisers after the schoolgirl kidnapping. It just isn't possible for the US to solve every problem for every country in the world. We can't even solve our own problems most of the time.
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Jan 18, 2015 07:32
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Volkerball posted:It's like the school shooting in Pakistan. Even if that happened in a foreign Western country like France, it would have been a big deal. If it happened in the US, holy poo poo, it'd still be front page news. Instead it got glancing coverage and was forgotten in two days. The simultaneous attack on a Yemen police station done by the same guys as Hebdo got gently caress-all coverage too.
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Jan 18, 2015 20:11
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This is a good piece
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Jan 18, 2015 20:24
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Looks like another Nigerian military base got overrun, this time in a town named Monguno. The fate of the batallion stationed there is unclear. http://www.news24.com/Africa/News/Boko-Haram-captures-Nigerian-town-of-Monguno-20150125 Seperately, an attack on a larger city named Maiduguri was repelled, though I don't believe the kill count that the Nigerian military is trumpeting for a second. http://www.latimes.com/world/africa/la-fg-wn-nigeria-boko-maiduguri-20150125-story.html
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Jan 25, 2015 20:42
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OctaviusBeaver posted:It's not even true that we aren't doing anything though, the US sent advisers after the schoolgirl kidnapping. It just isn't possible for the US to solve every problem for every country in the world. We can't even solve our own problems most of the time. People complain when the West doesn't get involved; the same people complain when the West does get involved.
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Jan 25, 2015 21:14
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BattleMaster posted:People complain when the West doesn't get involved; the same people complain when the West does get involved. I guess it must be the same people; after all, you just said it is.
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Jan 25, 2015 21:17
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After being postponed because of security concerns Nigeria's election is finally under way, so I thought it was a good time for a brief update on the ongoing fight against Boko Haram. The last month has actually brought a drastic change in the situation on the ground, largely due to an increased military commitment form Nigeria's neighbours in combating Boko Haram. The biggest development was the decision by Niger and Chad, a regional military power house who has demonstrated their value in CAR and Mali, to enter Northern Nigeria to directly combat Boko Haram - previously they had assisted Cameroon in containing Boko Haram advances but the decision to switch to a more directly offensive position has definitely wrong footed Boko Haram. So far the Chad/Niger force has taken three major towns (Damasak, Dikwa and Gamboru) with apparently zero Nigerian military assistance. Their advances have seemed to allow Nigeria to make significant gains further south retaking the major town of Bama and apparently Gwoza which has been considered the centre of Boko Haram's operations since it's capture last year. However all is not well in the partnership, Chad has been very outspoken about what they believe to be the failure of the Nigerian army to assist them and take control of the "liberated" areas. They now find themselves effectively occupying several Nigerian towns, a position they do not want really want to be in. Here's a significant snippet from a larger piece from the NYT: New York Times posted:Mr. Déby’s anger at the Nigerians was barely restrained in the interview. There are also reports, covered by Reuters here, that Boko Haram was launched violent reprisals against Shuwa Arabs fuelled by anger over Chad's involvement in the recent fighting. There have also been an increased focus on reports of  After the images were published the Nigeria military confirmed the death of a South African national in a friendly fire incident, a former Koevoet member called Leon Lotz who was under the employ of an African PMC with connections to the infamous South African mercenary group Executive Outcomes (though to be fair its hard to find a single PMC in Africa not connected somehow to Executive Outcomes). This raises some interesting questions as under South African law participating in foreign wars without government approval is a criminal offence (a law specifically designed to combat the wave of apartheid-era former SADF personal active in mercenary work throughout Africa) and there is a possibility that any "advisors" (as Nigeria insists all foregin nationals are) could be prosecuted. There have also been reports of several ex-SAAF pilots participating in the fight against Boko Haram directly, which kind of throws some doubt on the "only advisors" position of Nigerian government. More detail here from one of the original reports on the issue kustomkarkommando fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Mar 28, 2015 |
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Mar 28, 2015 21:33
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Man, voting takes forever. Talking with friends and every one has been in line since noon. Did a quick survey of about thirty people, and they're split pretty evenly between Jonathan and Buhari. Goddamn I want Goodluck to lose so badly.
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Mar 28, 2015 21:56
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Per BBC, It looks like the Opposition won the election and Goodluck has formally conceded. President Goodluck may have been incompetent, but he'll probably be remembered in Nigerian history as the first president to willingly hand over power after an election loss.
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Mar 31, 2015 19:20
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For all his faults, Goodluck was a democratic guy who came to power through elections and did his best to rule democratically. On the other hand Buhari is a former military dictator who had previously taken power through a military coup. There's a reason why Boko Haram could not have happened during the military dictatorships era, and we'll probably see it again now when north-eastern Nigeria will be drowned in a sea of blood and there won't be any able bodied male left there to man the Boko Haram ranks.
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Mar 31, 2015 19:39
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Ageing White South African Mercenaries Bring Boko Haram’s Reign Of Terror To An End  More: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/nigeria/11596210/South-African-mercenaries-secret-war-on-Boko-Haram.html There was also a military site with more detailed links about how STTEP operated against Boko Haram but I can't find the links. Whatever sins these SA mercs might have committed in the past, this does a whole lot to clean up the slate. The man who pulls a trigger against Boko Haram is the sword of justice.
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May 13, 2015 12:21
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Ligur posted:Ageing White South African Mercenaries Bring Boko Haram’s Reign Of Terror To An End Do you think they are motivated by justice or something? They are fighting Boko Haram for one reason, because they are being paid to do so. Barlow wasn't merely an SADF colonel, he was an intelligence officer in the CCB responsible for their Western Europe operations. There are some pretty serious sins on his slate and selling his services for hard cash hardly wipes it clean.
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May 13, 2015 13:40
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On the other hand they're getting poo poo done, which apparently not a lot of others are.
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May 13, 2015 17:35
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kustomkarkommando posted:Do you think they are motivated by justice or something? They are fighting Boko Haram for one reason, because they are being paid to do so. I've heard glowing reviews from a humanitarian standpoint about what Executive Outcomes pulled off in Sierra Leone, but that was from contractors.
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May 13, 2015 20:44
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If they're doing a good thing for the slightly wrong reason, that's good enough for me. Mercs get a bad rep but they're pretty cool people, actually:
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May 13, 2015 20:48
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Volkerball posted:I've heard glowing reviews from a humanitarian standpoint about what Executive Outcomes pulled off in Sierra Leone, but that was from contractors. People will give EO credit for their initial foray into Sierra Leone for stabilising the situation but there have been persistent allegations concerning diamond mining concessions given to companies connected to Barlow and his business associates, allegedly as part payment for EO's services. Added to that you have the subsequent controversy concerning Sandline's activities in the country, untangling EO and Sandline's relationship can be pretty tricky as they often worked hand in glove (EO were subcontracted by Sandline during their high-profile PNG intervention).
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May 13, 2015 21:06
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I think in this case the South African mercs were enrolled in a good cause, but most of them are just doing it for a paycheck because it's the only thing they know how to do. I would not be too sentimental about their motives here. They probably aren't all white Afrikaners either, though I know those are the ones that will attract the interest of reporters.
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May 13, 2015 23:07
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kustomkarkommando posted:Do you think they are motivated by justice or something? They are fighting Boko Haram for one reason, because they are being paid to do so. No, I think the motivation is probably money. So what? New Division posted:I think in this case the South African mercs were enrolled in a good cause, but most of them are just doing it for a paycheck because it's the only thing they know how to do. I would not be too sentimental about their motives here. That unit is pretty white/brown/black, as if it matters though but yes. The underlying motives again? I don't give a drat about being sentimental about it either, they are doing a good thing. Like a lot of other people have also agreed with edit: link to military site talking about the ops http://sofrep.com/40608/eeben-barlow-south-african-pmc-devestates-boko-haram-pt1/
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May 14, 2015 05:58
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