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moana posted:My first job was teaching poor minority kids, I understand the sickness of the just world fallacy very well. But someone posting on somethingawful for career advice? I'll bet u a dollar they're lazy, not disadvantaged. "Really, look at all the lazy rear end people out there. You can beat 90% of them out at anything after a year of hard work. I think you underestimate how lazy most people are..." There's not a  big enough for that
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May 13, 2015 02:14
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What do you want me to say, that he has an even easier shot at being in the top 10% because there are also a lot of disadvantaged people out there as well as a bunch of lazy people? I don't get what you're after. The average american spends what, 4 hours a day watching TV? We're a lazy rear end nation of lazy asses. I dunno, if you think otherwise I guess we will have to agree to disagree!
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May 13, 2015 03:02
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I somewhat agree with your sentiment Moana, but I don't know if lazy is the right word. Humans tend to take a path of least resistance and gravitate towards pleasurable activities and situations. We like our comfort zone. Stressful, uncomfortable, even new situations we try to avoid unless there is some kind of over riding force that makes us adapt. Complacency, lack of motivation, lack of belief, unwilling, I can get behind those, not sure about lazy though. I know a guy who works in a warehouse environment. He doesn't want anything from his job but a check. He shows up, works his shift and goes home. He doesn't want a promotion, he doesn't want a new job, he just wants to work his 40 and get his check. He's not lazy in my eyes, he works hard, he's just complacent.
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May 14, 2015 18:30
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skipdogg posted:I somewhat agree with your sentiment Moana, but I don't know if lazy is the right word. Humans tend to take a path of least resistance and gravitate towards pleasurable activities and situations. We like our comfort zone. Stressful, uncomfortable, even new situations we try to avoid unless there is some kind of over riding force that makes us adapt. Best post. Its probably already been said but there's absolutely nothing wrong with failure if you're giving a real effort toward obtaining something. If someone busts their rear end to try to become an actor but for whatever reason they fail then they can very likely transition to something else in the industry through the connections they've made, people recognize and appreciate a worker. I'm all for people going for their dream career, but put real effort into it and be realistic about your chances and where you're at. You'll land on your feet somewhere.
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May 14, 2015 19:36
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onemillionzombies posted:Best post. Are lazy. If Moana, someone who's never worked in acting before, can make $50k a year doing it, then anyone who can't is lazy.  I agree though, a lot of people get comfortable, and because of the way most careers work, you'll get left behind if you stay at the same job for any significant length of time.
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May 14, 2015 20:00
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skipdogg posted:I somewhat agree with your sentiment Moana, but I don't know if lazy is the right word. Humans tend to take a path of least resistance and gravitate towards pleasurable activities and situations. We like our comfort zone. Stressful, uncomfortable, even new situations we try to avoid unless there is some kind of over riding force that makes us adapt. Love the semantics in play here. Here's the problem with the warehouse guy: if he loses his job at the warehouse, and can't find another warehouse to work at, then he's poo poo out of luck, and we're supposed to feel sorry for him and tell him it's not his fault. Well, why wasn't he using his free time to go to school, or learn new, marketable skills that he could utilize in the event that his ubiquitous dead-end job suddenly disappears? I don't feel sorry for people like this and I certainly dont celebrate their "work ethic". There's nothing noble about
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May 14, 2015 21:46
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fruition posted:Love the semantics in play here.
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May 14, 2015 22:01
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Bootstraps & Acting Lessons: Coming to terms with my sociopathic thoughts about your average American worker. Really though, disturbing lack of empathy over warehouse bro's theoretical fall from complacent grace, seek help.
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May 14, 2015 22:25
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Whether warehouse guy is lazy or complacent, it doesn't matter. He's not competing for the top 10% that the OP is shooting for, and that just makes it easier for the OP to achieve. I mean, I'm a goddamn dirty socialist who wants basic income and free healthcare for everyone so we don't have to compete at all. I'm not saying that anyone is a bad person for not shooting for the top 10% of pay, I'm just saying that if you DO want to shoot for that, you can achieve it with hard work and hustle in just about any field. Whether it's because the other 90% is lazy or complacent or disadvantaged or has their hands tied to their shoelaces, whatever.
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May 14, 2015 22:48
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My Rhythmic Crotch posted:The problem with this kind of logic is that we need warehouse guys for our economy to work. Similarly we need wait staff, janitors, fast food workers, etc. Other wealthy countries (Scandinavian ones for example) know and understand that it takes all kinds and they don't generally have any kind of vendetta against people who work in those fields for "being too complacent" or whatever. They pay them a livable wage and everyone goes on with their lives. It's a weird American thing to be so derisive towards people who are simply doing what they want and enjoying living their life. I don't disagree, but where does that livable wage come from? Are you going to tax high earners even more and redistribute their wealth? Well what happens when the high earners figure out its not worth the effort to obtain the skills necessary to reach their level of income if the they are just taxed into oblivion anyway? Might they move out of the country to one that doesn't rape them with taxes? Or attempt to shelter their money offshore? Or just work some menial job making a livable wage and suckling off the government teet? What kind of life is that? If the garbage man is providing real value to society, society will pay him for his services. I don't even know what my garbage bill is because it doesn't matter, I wouldn't stop paying it if it doubled or tripled. It's not a weird American thing, it's a human thing. We need a purpose and something to work toward, we need struggle and pain. Why the gently caress would I work hard if I could only hope for the same lifestyle as someone who sits around carelessly shifting through life?
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May 14, 2015 23:45
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fruition posted:I don't disagree, but where does that livable wage come from? Are you going to tax high earners even more and redistribute their wealth? Well what happens when the high earners figure out its not worth the effort to obtain the skills necessary to reach their level of income if the they are just taxed into oblivion anyway? Might they move out of the country to one that doesn't rape them with taxes? Or attempt to shelter their money offshore? Or just work some menial job making a livable wage and suckling off the government teet? What kind of life is that? Please tell me more about your thoughts on tax rape Mr. Galt.
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May 14, 2015 23:54
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fruition posted:It's not a weird American thing, it's a human thing. We need a purpose and something to work toward, we need struggle and pain. Why the gently caress would I work hard if I could only hope for the same lifestyle as someone who sits around carelessly shifting through life? I think people would continue to work hard regardless of pure financial incentive because it's this weird human thing - we need a purpose and something to work towards in our lives.
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May 14, 2015 23:57
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fruition posted:If the garbage man is providing real value to society, society will pay him for his services. I don't even know what my garbage bill is because it doesn't matter, I wouldn't stop paying it if it doubled or tripled. quote:we need struggle and pain
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May 15, 2015 00:06
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I see those that benefit from society and the economy as a whole significantly shouldn't pay any taxes. What about countries that are going broke because the rich, some who are requesting that they pay more tax, are paying a lower percentage than their employees?
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May 15, 2015 00:21
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fruition posted:I don't disagree, but where does that livable wage come from? Are you going to tax high earners even more and redistribute their wealth?
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May 15, 2015 00:24
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moana posted:Yes. Take half my moneys and make everybody healthy and happy. Tax capital gains on wealth. Tax tax tax. I don't mind and I won't move, and neither will most high earners.  It feels like this thread has gone off the deep end.
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May 15, 2015 00:43
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moana posted:Yes. Take half my moneys and make everybody healthy and happy. Tax capital gains on wealth. Tax tax tax. I don't mind and I won't move, and neither will most high earners. I understand 50% was an arbitrary number you threw out for the sake of argument, but seriously, how much would it take to provide everyone a livable wage and free healthcare? Perhaps I'll start a "Change My View" thread in D&D since I've started a huge derail. Droo posted:I think people would continue to work hard regardless of pure financial incentive because it's this weird human thing - we need a purpose and something to work towards in our lives. You are clearly someone lucky enough to not hate their career. Think about the last job you worked that you absolutely loathed---now imagine doing that job out of the goodness of your heart.
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May 15, 2015 00:48
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I've found in my jobs ranging from Drive Through Cashier at Burger King to Financial Analyst for Major Company that it's not often the job itself, but the coworkers and management that can really make a job enjoyable or terrible. Soul crushing work is often driven by soul crushing leaders.
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May 15, 2015 00:52
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fruition posted:I understand 50% was an arbitrary number you threw out for the sake of argument, but seriously, how much would it take to provide everyone a livable wage and free healthcare? New Zealand is close to balancing the budget. Social welfare by way of unemployment, pensions student allowance (for some) and free healthcare are provided for a top tax rate of 33%. A livable wage is a cost to employers but if you have a functioning economy with profitable businesses it is possible.
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May 15, 2015 02:16
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Devian666 posted:New Zealand is close to balancing the budget. Social welfare by way of unemployment, pensions student allowance (for some) and free healthcare are provided for a top tax rate of 33%. Well poo poo, I pay nearly 40% if you consider federal and state income taxes. I just find it hard to believe that all it'll take is another 10-15% with the way our government already pisses away our tax dollars.
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May 15, 2015 02:24
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Without looking anything up my first guess is that new Zealand taxes the crap out of their tourists. I cant imagine that New Zealand and the USA have equivalent national economies.
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May 15, 2015 16:08
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OP people often overlook state / local government civil service positions. There are a bunch of different types of jobs and while they're not flashy, they are often stable and pay "OK".
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May 15, 2015 17:28
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packsmack posted:Without looking anything up my first guess is that new Zealand taxes the crap out of their tourists. I cant imagine that New Zealand and the USA have equivalent national economies. New Zealand also doesn't dump hundreds of billions of dollars into being the world police, so there's that
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May 15, 2015 18:36
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Yeah, I remembered that later. Without our dod spending we orobably could do whatever we wanted social policy wise.
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May 15, 2015 19:13
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Knyteguy posted:As far as actors go I'd say that's the mistake of making a poor career choice (for most people obviously). You can work as hard as poo poo at learning to program too, but if you don't have the right mental knack for it you will not be a top 10% programmer. You will be a programmer most likely, and able to make a living at it, but not necessarily $60k. (Depends wildly where you live too, of course! $60k is both achievable for bottom rank dudes in San Francisco and also, like, below the poverty line).
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May 15, 2015 19:29
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Privilege and opportunity are all relative. There are people who have worked harder than me who are worse off. There are lazy schlubs who are doing much better than me because they have the right last name.
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May 15, 2015 19:38
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feedmegin posted:You can work as hard as poo poo at learning to program too, but if you don't have the right mental knack for it you will not be a top 10% programmer. You will be a programmer most likely, and able to make a living at it, but not necessarily $60k. (Depends wildly where you live too, of course! $60k is both achievable for bottom rank dudes in San Francisco and also, like, below the poverty line). Agreed. I wasn't specifically referring to programming. A career choice should have a lot of thought put into it. This is a great place to start a career hunt I think: http://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm You can sort by median pay, degree requirements, etc. There's a lot of good data, and it's what eventually convinced me to become a developer over other things I was thinking about. My wife found it useful as well; it helped her choose a career path recently.
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May 15, 2015 19:38
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I always like this essay: http://www.paulgraham.com/love.html
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May 15, 2015 21:06
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It always baffels me when these conversations happen where: someone says, "I'm a broke loser halp" Someone else says "work hard you lazy-rear end level 30 bong monkey" Another person jumps in and says "shometimes hard work won't get you anywhere you have to be lucky, and rich, and educated, and white, and your parents had to love you, and you have to have straight teeth and good eyesight." Person #3 is answering a question that no one is asking. We are not looking at society level vertical mobility. We are interested in a single individual and the things he or she can control. Firstborn may not be able to make it to the top 10% of programmers, but who cares. If he is willing to turn the hustle up a little (or a lot) he can at least end up somewhere better than he is now. For most people hustle is the only variable they can control. Even if it only impacts your chances at prosperity by a few percentage points, there's no reason not to engage the world and bust your rear end. Working hard and having a plan suck a lot less than sitting around being depressed anyhow. Personally I was in OP's situation a few years ago. I was uneducated and working a food service industry job for peanuts. I ended up selling pretty much all of my possessions and starting two businesses. One of which I sold to go to business school (oh the irony). There's been a lot of career specific advice, but my biggest recommendation is: Get to know people. Leap at any chance to make a personal connection. Neighbors, the guy who does plumbing at your restaurant, the beer rep making a delivery to your local bar, get involved in the community, if you have a nonzero interest in religion then go to church. When it's time to hire a guy to get in the ceiling of a law firm and run cat5 cable it's not usually a craigslist cattle call. It's more of "oh yeah, I remember Firstborn was really interested in getting into IT and he seems like a smashing young man. I'll give him a ring." Hell, if you lived about 300 miles east I have a plumber you could talk to that's desperate to hire some folks who show up, don't do pills, and can wield a sawzall. The point is: You never know when the opportunity for a foot in the door is going to pop up, so always be building bridges and smiling.
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May 15, 2015 21:10
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Devian666 posted:New Zealand is close to balancing the budget. Social welfare by way of unemployment, pensions student allowance (for some) and free healthcare are provided for a top tax rate of 33%. That top tax rate was introduced at the same time sales tax on everything (including fresh food, wtf) was raised to 15%, combine that with $8/gal gasoline and 25-30c/kwh electricity, the cost of living there is crushing and the tax code somehow favors the wealthy even more than in the US. There are no capital gains taxes, no estate taxes and very few tax credits that benefit ordinary people. sanchez fucked around with this message at 21:26 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 21:23
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feedmegin posted:You can work as hard as poo poo at learning to program too, but if you don't have the right mental knack for it you will not be a top 10% programmer. You will be a programmer most likely, and able to make a living at it, but not necessarily $60k. (Depends wildly where you live too, of course! $60k is both achievable for bottom rank dudes in San Francisco and also, like, below the poverty line).
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May 15, 2015 21:47
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sanchez posted:That top tax rate was introduced at the same time sales tax on everything (including fresh food, wtf) was raised to 15%, combine that with $8/gal gasoline and 25-30c/kwh electricity, the cost of living there is crushing and the tax code somehow favors the wealthy even more than in the US. There are no capital gains taxes, no estate taxes and very few tax credits that benefit ordinary people. The supermarkets are making huge profits here and North Island prices are terrible compared with the South Island. Petrol is a huge rip off and a lot of people in my office have switched to commuting by motorbike and I just use the train it's more economic by a long way. Electricity is a rip off due to National's idiotic plan to separate generation, lines companies and retailers. Each one has to clip the ticket and produce a profit. The lowest cost energy company last year for my low usage was energy direct. Now it is Flick Electric and they have the lowest profit margin out of all of the retailers. I pay spot price for power and I'm saving a lot of money at the moment. They also make full use of the smart meters which has given me access to off peak power which is at least half price. Definitely change power companies every one or two years. gently caress those arseholes. If you want tax write offs you need to start your own company to get any benefits at all. Workers are all getting shafted. You'll find ever NZer worth over $10m is earning $66k per year (I'm not joking).
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May 16, 2015 22:43
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Holy poo poo this thread went off the rails hard. You mention not wanting to join the military, but could you if you had the desire? IE can you do 30ish pushups, run a mile and a half reasonably, have you done a ton of drugs in the past? Depending on your area law enforcement isn't super hard to get into and generally pays acceptably with good benefits, but again, this heavily depends on your area. It's worth looking at some local agencies websites and seeing about recruitment.
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May 24, 2015 17:40
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