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mysterious frankie posted:The Irish Potato Famine led to both a lot of interesting follies, and a lot of dead Irish people, so I won't hear a single bad thing said about it. more irishmen ended up in america than dead so, therefore, the famine was bad
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Jul 30, 2015 18:31
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Thunder Moose posted:Focusing on redistributing rather than creating wealth will totally create wealth though. A good case could be made that when more people have a share of the wealth they are more likely to spend it and thus increase industry output. But that isn't the point of wealth redistribution.
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Jul 30, 2015 18:47
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l-o-o-ng live the motherland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji3QcgybUYY
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Jul 30, 2015 18:48
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Jul 30, 2015 19:36
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Industrialization requires many resources, most of which an industrializing country doesn't initially have the capacity to extract without a massive mobilization and capture of workers to do dangerous jobs for virtually no pay. This scenario played out under both communism and capitalism with the only difference being in exactly who got the shaft and how the slavery was justified.
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Jul 30, 2015 19:42
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CountingWizard posted:If there is anything I know about communism, its that it will eventually make us into a garden of eden utopia that is preyed upon by shaggy albino apes that live underground. The future portrayed in the Time Machine was supposed to be the end result of capitalism.
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Jul 30, 2015 19:59
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dogcrash truther posted:Industrialization requires many resources, most of which an industrializing country doesn't initially have the capacity to extract without a massive mobilization and capture of workers to do dangerous jobs for virtually no pay. This scenario played out under both communism and capitalism with the only difference being in exactly who got the shaft and how the slavery was justified. exactly this. communisms of the past had to do the whole "forcible collectivization" things to industrialize agriculture, exactly the same thing as the "enclosure movement" in the development of western capitalism. the difference is communists did it a lot quicker. communism today would not mean we all go to live on collective farms. the farms are already collectivized under agricultural corporations. all communism would mean is the large corporations become run by the (democratic) government, and the profits go into the national treasury instead of private hands. just imagine what sort of projects the government could do with the profits of all corporations at its command! I doubt there would even be a need for things like sales/income tax any more.
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Jul 30, 2015 20:44
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dogcrash truther posted:Capitalism is responsible for at least as many deaths from famine as communism so capitalism and communism are about even on the deaths front. here's what capitalism can also do: make iphones, and not collapse under the weight of its own ineffectiveness anchoress fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Jul 30, 2015 |
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Jul 30, 2015 20:51
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skeletonotherkin posted:The future portrayed in the Time Machine was supposed to be the end result of capitalism. You know when I originally read that, I had trouble understanding when the traveler was reconsidering his ideas of the Eloi's origins. I missed the part where he eventually guessed that the Morlocks were the proletariat who were eating the rich. It makes sense now. That is what I get for reading the Time Machine before college.
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Jul 30, 2015 21:35
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Communism, in practice, is just marketing. No one asks for equality because they think they'll get less of what they want.
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Jul 30, 2015 21:49
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Rutibex posted:exactly this. communisms of the past had to do the whole "forcible collectivization" things to industrialize agriculture, exactly the same thing as the "enclosure movement" in the development of western capitalism. the difference is communists did it a lot quicker. Once you find a way to eliminate human greed from the equation thus mitigating the "more equal than the rest" problem that arises in scenarios like this you'll have something. Communism should work if you can assure that no one at the top will game the system for personal ends. At least in a capitalist society greed can be occasionally harnessed for innovation. On the other side of things the US government has been so thoroughly compromised by business interests that we are in fact acting out a socialist utopia for corporate interests by subsidizing their failures. Thunder Moose fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Jul 30, 2015 |
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Jul 30, 2015 21:55
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Thunder Moose posted:Once you find a way to eliminate human greed from the equation thus mitigating the "more equal than the rest" problem that arises in scenarios like this you'll have something. Corporations are people too and deserve access to welfare like all other American citizens.
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Jul 30, 2015 22:03
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nothing works because we are a bunch of violent idiot monkeys one step away from beating eachother to death with blunt objects
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Jul 30, 2015 22:08
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Thunder Moose posted:Once you find a way to eliminate human greed from the equation thus mitigating the "more equal than the rest" problem that arises in scenarios like this you'll have something. so a system that encourages greed and selfishness is superior to a system that outlaws it? the Soviet Union might have been corrupt, but do you honestly think it was more corrupt that modern Russia? lol i'd rather have an idealistic system that doesn't work perfectly than a system where inequity is a design feature
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Jul 30, 2015 22:55
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it was literally worse since they would just lie about having stuff like water or chocolate or shoes and then you had to pretend all those things existed, when they never were existing at all. And if u didn't, they'd execute you in a dirt poor way like siberia or a 6 man shooting squad where all the guns are loaded but 5 of them will misfire
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Jul 30, 2015 23:13
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whats the point of any god drat thing if a man cant have more than his neighbor
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Jul 30, 2015 23:20
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Blue Raider posted:whats the point of any god drat thing if a man cant have more than his neighbor this is why communism wont work
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Jul 30, 2015 23:21
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Nuclearmonkee posted:this is why communism wont work it blows my mind that a man can look at communism and think to himself yea this sounds like a thing that would work
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Jul 30, 2015 23:24
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Rutibex posted:the Soviet Union might have been corrupt, but do you honestly think it was more corrupt that modern Russia? If this is a troll I will openly admit you got me; I am unsure if this is a serious question or not. Rampant cronyism, political jailing, and the odd assassination OR All the aforementioned, plus massive purges in which the state kills millions of its own people and denies travel visas. Hmmmmmmmmmmm
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Jul 30, 2015 23:47
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Rutibex posted:just imagine what sort of projects the government could do with the profits of all corporations at its command! I doubt there would even be a need for things like sales/income tax any more. Dude the government can't even get healthcare off the ground when they're funding it in the billions of dollar range, I don't want them to have more money. I want them to get rid of the incompetent government workers and lobbyists first . You don't give a meth addict more money until he stops being a loving meth addict.
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Jul 31, 2015 00:03
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Thunder Moose posted:If this is a troll I will openly admit you got me; I am unsure if this is a serious question or not. i'm not talking about the 1930's, if your going to do that then i think it's only fair to put nazi germany into the "capitalism" category, you know with IG Farbin corporation being responsible for a large part of the holocaust. if you instead compare 1970's USSR, before Reagan started loving with them, it was actually running pretty well. all the purges and gulags and famines where over, and the economy grew at a steady pace with no recessions. russia had regular famines for hundrads of years, but after the communists broke a few eggs they never had another one again, and haven't to this day
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Jul 31, 2015 00:17
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Rutibex posted:i'm not talking about the 1930's The Soviet Union was the worst offender but not the only offender. Colombia, Peru, Cambodia, Vietnam, North Korea, China all experienced intellectual "purges" to hush up dissent. Even liberal thinkers who happened to be in positions of power (think teachers, political theorists, and business leaders) where part of those killed. By the 70's Russia had a firm grip on the people who had already been conditioned to shut up and submit. However in terms of economic prosperity I dare you to find a Russian who was not a party member who can back that up. Car battery theft was one of the biggest economic motivators in Moscow for much of that period... edit: and still denied you travel visas... Fascism is by definition of it's creators is corporate socialism ("National Socialism") which I alluded to earlier; it gave massive handouts to companies willing to prop up and support the political order. There is a very good reason why people like Ferdinand Porsche where so buddy-buddy with Hitler, and why BMW was so eager to help the Reich; or why "The Business Plot" in early 20th century America was a thing among business magnates - they all stood to gain huge paychecks, just because "fascism." That is not the same as a liberal democracy practicing actual capitalism, whereby capital is raised for a project/company/product and earns money off the merits of the idea - or crashes due to a lack of desire for the aforementioned. I am not saying the US is practicing this in the purist sense: TARP was a travesty of justice and I hope it never happens again. Thunder Moose fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Jul 31, 2015 |
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Jul 31, 2015 00:30
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P.S. Facism - Mussolini's brainchild: comes from the Roman word "fasces" which is a byword for collectivism. If you are familiar with Roman history you may be familiar with the symbol of a bunch of oak sticks surrounding an ax? That would be a fasces: "stronger collectively than as one."
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Jul 31, 2015 00:50
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Thunder Moose posted:That is not the same as a liberal democracy practicing actual capitalism, whereby capital is raised for a project/company/product and earns money off the merits of the idea - or crashes due to a lack of desire for the aforementioned. I am not saying the US is practicing this in the purist sense: TARP was a travesty of justice and I hope it never happens again. this is just as much a utopian fantasy as Communism, capitalism does not work that way at all in any existing reality
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Jul 31, 2015 00:51
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Rutibex posted:this is just as much a utopian fantasy as Communism, capitalism does not work that way at all in any existing reality And communism has not existed in any reality, ever. Even the Soviet Union was the "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics" because according to political theory you must first be socialist to become communist; only - no nation has ever survived the incubation period.
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Jul 31, 2015 00:54
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Thunder Moose posted:P.S. Facism - Mussolini's brainchild: comes from the Roman word "fasces" which is a byword for collectivism. industrial capitalism is a form of collectivism, thats the entire point: allowing people to amass large amounts of wealth that it can be used to mobilize the masses. why do you think that monopolies form so readily when they are not prevented by the state?
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Jul 31, 2015 00:56
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Thunder Moose posted:And communism has not existed in any reality, ever. at least in socialism society has a goal, i find the accumulation of more commodities and pure hedonism to be a lovely wasted existence 
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Jul 31, 2015 00:59
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Rutibex posted:industrial capitalism is a form of collectivism, thats the entire point: allowing people to amass large amounts of wealth that it can be used to mobilize the masses. why do you think that monopolies form so readily when they are not prevented by the state? Because of greed - which brings us full circle. (edit: companies generally compete prior to being absorbed and when they don't that's collusion and illegal. monopolies in theory are also illegal) I would rather have a negative trait like greed lead to innovation while being reigned in by a elected government in a liberal democracy. Which of late has not happened and yes I see stark similarities between the gilded age and now. But rather that, than live in a system that still has greed: but has done away with safeguards in favor of a fair "collective state" in which we can all be broke together - while those in charge can live as the worst robber barons. I want another Teddy Roosevelt, not another Vladimir Lenin. Thunder Moose fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Jul 31, 2015 |
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Jul 31, 2015 01:03
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ive always felt the longest arm of the government should reach over infrastructure and maybe financial regulations and not much else. call that socialism if you want but its really just tax dollars at work thats why obamas you didnt build that spiel was so stupid. well no poo poo "he" didnt build it, but his tax dollars certainly allowed "it" to be built and maintained. its not like the goddamn asphault company had an equal hand in starting a dress boutique or whatever. how loving unamerican can you be to say something like that obama is a stupid stupid man
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Jul 31, 2015 01:06
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Hatebag posted:Horseshit. The only time Russia was not 50 years behind the developed world was under communism. Under the tzar they were a goddamned comedy of errors and unable to respond intelligently to anything. They were barely able to stand toe to toe with Austria for gently caress's sake.
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Jul 31, 2015 02:02
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even Zizek
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Jul 31, 2015 02:03
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Cake Smashing Boob posted:even Zizek Even Botswana is developing into a liberal, capitalist country fairly successfully. Russia could and would too.
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Jul 31, 2015 02:07
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Socialism, capitalism, communism, fascism, none of these are inherently bad things unless those in power are acting against the well being of society. Causing suffering for profit or because it's convenient or keeps the government in power; this is what should be feared.
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Jul 31, 2015 04:16
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Rutibex posted:all communism would mean is the large corporations become run by the (democratic) government, and the profits go into the national treasury instead of private hands. just imagine what sort of projects the government could do with the profits of all corporations at its command! I doubt there would even be a need for things like sales/income tax any more. 
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Jul 31, 2015 04:26
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i just looked up some numbers to refute and own you, and i was kind of surprised. the total profit of all US corporation combined is $1.44 Trillion, but the total US federal budget is $3.028 Trillion  WTF?!ok nevermind i said anything, the USA is already a communist country!
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Jul 31, 2015 04:51
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