|
They received Luther's teachings several steps and generations removed, so the virulent parts had been filtered out and deposited deep into German blood and soil.
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2016 12:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 22:25 |
|
|
Luther came up with his 95 theses in 1517, and lived until 1546. Denmark, Norway and Holstein (at the time in a union under the Oldenburgs) were officially reformed in 1537. In Sweden they began even earlier, in 1527. How many steps and generations do you think separated them from Luther himself?
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2016 12:41
|
|
|
It doesnt square with the fact that half the reason there were so many Jews in Germany is because it was fairly friendly to them.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2016 12:55
|
|
|
Yeah, the Nordic kings and reformers wrote to Luther and asked how they should go about their reformations several times. In Sweden the early reformers Olaus and Laurentius Petri, the latter of which would go on to become the first Lutheran Archbishop of Sweden, were literally old students of Luther's at the University of Wittenberg. This is literally as few steps removed as you can get, barring Luther himself going on a Nordic tour.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2016 12:56
|
|
|
It appears I've been caught not remembering history correctly, deepest apologies.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2016 15:56
|
|
|
Panzeh posted:It doesnt square with the fact that half the reason there were so many Jews in Germany is because it was fairly friendly to them. Yeah, it is again worth noting that if you gave a European Jew their choice of places to live in 1900, Germany was probably the top of the list. The British and French are up to their elbows in the blood of the Insufficiently Christian and have been for most of the last century, America's a long way off and just finished having a civil war, Spain and Italy have never been exactly what you'd call welcoming, and Eastern Europe remains Eastern Europe. Come To Germany: There's Jobs, And Unlike Every Other European Power The State Has Consistently Said Murdering You Still Constitutes A Crime.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2016 16:09
|
|
|
Ze Pollack posted:Yeah, it is again worth noting that if you gave a European Jew their choice of places to live in 1900, Germany was probably the top of the list. The British and French are up to their elbows in the blood of the Insufficiently Christian and have been for most of the last century, America's a long way off and just finished having a civil war, Spain and Italy have never been exactly what you'd call welcoming, and Eastern Europe remains Eastern Europe. Come To Germany: There's Jobs, And Unlike Every Other European Power The State Has Consistently Said Murdering You Still Constitutes A Crime. Most of the last century in England was relatively decent for the Jews. In it the Jews had grown to be accepted parts of society and had become both MPs and PMs.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2016 16:35
|
|
|
Hunt11 posted:Most of the last century in England was relatively decent for the Jews. In it the Jews had grown to be accepted parts of society and had become both MPs and PMs. True, but that whole messy "we're not only allowed to go slaughter all the savages who have things we want on grounds of Christendom and Civilization, it's our holy obligation" thing understandably resulted in some misgivings.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2016 17:30
|
|
Ze Pollack posted:True, but that whole messy "we're not only allowed to go slaughter all the savages who have things we want on grounds of Christendom and Civilization, it's our holy obligation" thing understandably resulted in some misgivings. I think you're probably over-egging it. England was a bad place to be a medieval Jew - one of the worst - but it was not regarded as a bad place to be a Jew in modern Europe. Very far from it.
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2016 17:36
|
|
|
I've read jews were not that common in Germany during The Third Reich, that few german jews died in the Holocaust compared to other nationalities? But maybe this is in relation to Eastern Europe/Russia and Germany had a big jewish population in relation to the rest of Western Europe?
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2016 18:45
|
|
Captain Scandinaiva posted:I've read jews were not that common in Germany during The Third Reich, that few german jews died in the Holocaust compared to other nationalities? But maybe this is in relation to Eastern Europe/Russia and Germany had a big jewish population in relation to the rest of Western Europe? The only Western [non-US] countries with Jewish populations exceeding 100,000 in 1900 were Austria, Germany, the Netherlands and the UK. By 1940 that club is The Netherlands, France, the UK, Germany, Austria.. The biggest population centres for European Jewry were overwhelmingly Poland and Russia, followed by Romania and Hungary. Of the western countries, Germany's Jewish population was the largest before it began to flee. This is all complicated by the fact that the Nazis drive Jews to Poland, France and the UK with their persecution, meaning Germany chases Jews to countries it will then invade and deport them to Poland from. Polish Jews unquestionably have it worst of the Jewish populations, but that is probably because that is where the death camp apparatus is centred. Jews also have it very bad in what we'd think of as the Czech Republic and Slovakia, probably in large part because this was Heydrich's personal fiefdom and where a lot of the pilot programs for extermination took place. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Nov 4, 2016 |
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2016 19:01
|
|
|
Disinterested posted:Other countries had plural voting. In the UK a university degree conferred another vote in a university constituency. 40% of men had no votes, unlike all of them in Germany. Other than none of the executive actually being accountable to the Reichstag in any sense whatsoever, which was probably not an accidental omission.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2016 23:35
|
|
Nude Bog Lurker posted:Other than none of the executive actually being accountable to the Reichstag in any sense whatsoever, which was probably not an accidental omission. And yet it had to try to govern fairly consensually.
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2016 23:37
|
|
|
That's not really accurate. On a phone so I'll let someone else spell it out but check out the budget battles between the navy and army factions as an easy example. There are tons of others. The reichsyag was w real legislature. If you really want to delve into its weaknesses compared to England it's in the parliamentary executive. Even then it's only true after Bismarck was sacked and even THEN it's not like Bethmann-Hollweg was just a mouthpiece.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2016 23:44
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:That's not really accurate. On a phone so I'll let someone else spell it out but check out the budget battles between the navy and army factions as an easy example. There are tons of others. The reichsyag was w real legislature. I think the fact that Bismarck was sacked by the Sovereign and not because he had or did not have the confidence of the legislature is a fairly glaring illustration with the problems with the Imperial constitution. They were soluble - they did try and solve them, in fact, in 1918 - but before that the centre of power sat fairly comfortably with people who were not, in any sense whatsoever, accountable to the public. I think the mistake is to take a system that was fairly explicitly designed to limit the input of the democratically elected legislature and to centralise power in a relatively unaccountable executive and infer something innate in the German character about that, rather than reading it as a conservative gerrymander that was creaking by 1914 and went rather badly wrong when imported into the republic afterwards. Like, if Britain had descended into eternally prorogued Parliaments and an expanded Special Powers Act in the 1920s (plausible), it wouldn't be a valid conclusion that Britons had secretly hated Parliament and democracy all along either.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2016 02:49
|
|
|
Any good sources to look into if I wanna learn about life in a tank or submarine? Contrary to everything I thought, it seems that life really sucked in them. I think it was World at War that discussed US soldiers having problems being in Sherman tanks, because the interior would sometimes be blood stained from previous crews. And then something about crazy high mortality rates in Uboats. Current searches on google constantly point to the movie Fury, which I'm going to assume is the usual feelgood 'Merica stuff. buglord fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Nov 7, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2016 08:28
|
|
|
Fury is an OK movie thats kinda historically correct but at the same time isn't really at all. It's a gritty popcorn flick that has parts designed to feel real, but what is actually happening really isn't.
underage at the vape shop fucked around with this message at 09:21 on Nov 7, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2016 09:18
|
|
|
Dali Parton posted:Any good sources to look into if I wanna learn about life in a tank or submarine? Contrary to everything I thought, it seems that life really sucked in them. I think it was World at War that discussed US soldiers having problems being in Sherman tanks, because the interior would sometimes be blood stained from previous crews. And then something about crazy high mortality rates in Uboats. Fury is basically the opposite. It falls to all the wehraboo myths about glorious impenetrable Krupp steel.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2016 09:28
|
|
|
Dali Parton posted:Any good sources to look into if I wanna learn about life in a tank or submarine? Contrary to everything I thought, it seems that life really sucked in them. I think it was World at War that discussed US soldiers having problems being in Sherman tanks, because the interior would sometimes be blood stained from previous crews. And then something about crazy high mortality rates in Uboats. For subs, I like to recommend the novel Sharks and Little Fish by Wolfgang Ott, which is a sort of fictionalized memoir of a German submarine sailor based on the author's own experience, it goes through his naval service over several years, his start on surface boats, his training, transfer to the U-Boot arm, and the hell serving there was. It's very naturalistic and doesn't romanticize the war and soldier's life in the slightest. It was written in German, but English editions should be available - https://www.amazon.com/Sharks-Little-Fish-Submarine-Warfare/dp/1585748099
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2016 09:36
|
|
|
Dali Parton posted:Any good sources to look into if I wanna learn about life in a tank or submarine? Contrary to everything I thought, it seems that life really sucked in them. I think it was World at War that discussed US soldiers having problems being in Sherman tanks, because the interior would sometimes be blood stained from previous crews. And then something about crazy high mortality rates in Uboats. Obviously Das Boot.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2016 13:41
|
|
|
Dali Parton posted:And then something about crazy high mortality rates in Uboats. Yeah, for the German Uboats, it was nearly every uboat and surprisingly only 75% of personnel. Which I find a little surprising as uboat sinking tend not to be very survivable although on occasion they would surface and surrender. Perhaps a large amount of the surviving crew were a result of uboats being strategically bombed? Or other things that destroyed uboats? Counter uboat tech and allied doctrine just got too good so much so that uboats really weren't effective in the Atlantic by 1944. What uboats were had were husbanded for the invasion and were sortied out to certain death into the Normandy invasion fleet. To no effect. I remember from some doco somewhere, for US submarines at least, nothing was too good for them. For the first few days they feasted on boneless prime cut steaks until fresh food ran out... Also they had access to torpedo juice. If someone knows how frequently that stuff went "missing"? And if that was mostly a thing just in rear base areas?
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2016 14:50
|
|
|
The 75% figure includes all submariners who served throughout the war, while fatalities skyrocketed in the latter years. Of the 25% survivors, more than half lived thanks to being taken captive, the others often survived due to being transferred from combat service into training units etc. As for American crews, the conditions on American subs were vastly better than on German ones, but still very bleak, and supplies were actually sufficient, but bland and depressing. Famously they started installing ice cream machines on US boats on recommendations of psychiatrists just to give the men something to look forward to when on patrol.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2016 15:16
|
|
|
I got to ride on the back of a Sherman going at "combat" speed and let me tell you if it wasn't for the experience I would have rather walked. Was an easy8 but poo poo I felt like I was gonna get tossed off and smooshed the whole time. Before the littlefield collection was liquidated I got the opportunity to explore the collection and crawl in and out of anything I could open. How anybody managed to not turn those tanks in rolling toilets is beyond me. So tight, so loud .... Fury did alright with the visuals from in the tank but they were way off on the sound volume. Even that set was actually like 125% scale.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2016 19:06
|
|
LingcodKilla posted:I got to ride on the back of a Sherman going at "combat" speed and let me tell you if it wasn't for the experience I would have rather walked. Was an easy8 but poo poo I felt like I was gonna get tossed off and smooshed the whole time. Even tankers today tend to get hearing problems.
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2016 20:02
|
|
|
Disinterested posted:Even tankers today tend to get hearing problems. Not really avoidable though is it. Earmuffs only do so much when you are in front of a huge engine and under a huge canon.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2016 23:36
|
|
|
I'm hard pressed to think of a bigger myth in terms of popular culture than the Sherman "deathtrap". It actually hard an extremely low death rate, meaning the average number of killed crew per knocked out vehicle, of 0.5. In other words given the crew number of five you had a 10% chance of dieing if your tank gets got. Compared to that of 1.0 for a T-34 with a crew of four so 25% chance of death. Then compared to infantry it's even more substantial by a factor of like ten. The real death trap for a US army soldier was a canvas uniform accompanied by an M1 Garand. Part of the reason is that it was it was relatively easy for the crew to bail out with plenty of ports and no it didn't "light up the first time"  . A slogan whose original source didn't even exist until after WW2. Also the crew were required to wear helmets unlike other countries' tank crew which also helped.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2016 03:26
|
|
|
I worked with a French Algerian Jew who pushed out of D-Day +week as a driver of a Sherman who hated them. He lost two full crews (out of 4) in one engagement approaching Paris. Just imagine an ancient Frenchmen flapping his arms around about tissue paper tanks.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2016 03:42
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:That's not really accurate. On a phone so I'll let someone else spell it out but check out the budget battles between the navy and army factions as an easy example. There are tons of others. The reichsyag was w real legislature. If I remember right, a fair part of Massie's argument is that much of what went wrong with Imperial Germany came from how Bismarck designed the Chancellor's role based far too heavily on the assumption that the chancellor would always be someone like him, and the Kaiser would always be like William I. When none following chancellors could be sufficiently Bismarckian, and William II certainly wasn't the man his grandfather was,* the whole top of government progressively went off the rails. *We'll leave Frederick III out of the estimation for obvious reasons.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2016 04:06
|
|
|
I'm currently scanning the thread for already offered suggestions, but does anyone have any recommendations for books chronicling Hitler's life pre-WWII?
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 16:41
|
|
|
Stickarts posted:I'm currently scanning the thread for already offered suggestions, but does anyone have any recommendations for books chronicling Hitler's life pre-WWII? Try "The Young Hitler I Knew" by August Kubizek.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 17:37
|
|
|
Stickarts posted:I'm currently scanning the thread for already offered suggestions, but does anyone have any recommendations for books chronicling Hitler's life pre-WWII? Rise and Fall of the Third Reich offers a decent perspective on Hitler's life before WWII. Hitler's rise to power is almost as absurd as his leadership of WWII.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 17:44
|
|
|
Stickarts posted:I'm currently scanning the thread for already offered suggestions, but does anyone have any recommendations for books chronicling Hitler's life pre-WWII? They're kind of bricks but the best bar none is going to be Kershaw's biographies of Hitler.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 18:45
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:They're kind of bricks but the best bar none is going to be Kershaw's biographies of Hitler. Yeah this is it.
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 19:36
|
|
|
That's what my own efforts found as well. Thanks for your responses, y'all.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 21:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 22:25 |
|
|
A White Guy posted:Rise and Fall of the Third Reich offers a decent perspective on Hitler's life before WWII. Hitler's rise to power is almost as absurd as his leadership of WWII. Also on point that 'Heil Schicklegruber' doesn't have quite the same ring to it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2016 19:08
|
|
