drilldo squirt posted:You're assuming a lot of things. For example you are assuming that the people who answered that poll had these reasons and not other reasons to say they didn't want a new base. I am saying that the assured defense offered by American military bases fails to convince 80% of Okinawans that the bases are a good thing. This is incontrovertible. It would be very painful- for you- to try to assault this, because it's just restating the facts.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:03
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Effectronica posted:I am saying that the assured defense offered by American military bases fails to convince 80% of Okinawans that the bases are a good thing. This is incontrovertible. It would be very painful- for you- to try to assault this, because it's just restating the facts. What evidence do you have that the reasons they don't want a new base there has anything to do with American protection or lack of it? What if the locals are only concerned about local issues or have some other reason? What research have you read about this that makes you so sure that the reasons for the Okinawan resistance to this base being put up are geopolitical in any way?
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Jan 24, 2016 17:15
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drilldo squirt posted:What evidence do you have that the reasons they don't want a new base there has anything to do with American protection or lack of it? What if the locals are only concerned about local issues or have some other reason? What research have you read about this that makes you so sure that the reasons for the Okinawan resistance to this base being put up are geopolitical in any way? You're not reading what I am saying, and are thus deliberately hampering discussion. Away with you.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:17
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Effectronica posted:You're not reading what I am saying, and are thus deliberately hampering discussion. Away with you. I'm reading exactly what you are saying, I'm not even getting into your fallacy about resistance to this base meaning resistance to American protection. I'm saying you are making assumptions that, unless you haven't been showing them, have no basis in evidence.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:19
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Effectronica posted:I am saying that the assured defense offered by American military bases fails to convince 80% of Okinawans that the bases are a good thing. This is incontrovertible. It would be very painful- for you- to try to assault this, because it's just restating the facts. Actually you're the on being disingenuous because Okinawans mostly want a reduction of US presence on Okinawa itself. The majority doesn't want the US completely out of it. Also this is Okinawa itself. You know that place you claim to know such about. But it must just be evil Amerikkka making the majority still want some US presence.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:19
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drilldo squirt posted:I'm reading exactly what you are saying, I'm not even getting into your fallacy about resistance to this base meaning resistance to American protection. I'm saying you are making assumptions that, unless you haven't been showing them, have no basis in evidence. No, you are reversing what is actually being said. I am saying that the promise of American protection fails to convince against whatever reasons for opposition exist, for 80% of people on Okinawa. You are distorting this because you are a birdbrain and your posts are for the birds and you should go back to eating birdseed. Crowsbeak posted:Actually you're the on being disingenuous because Okinawans mostly want a reduction of US presence on Okinawa itself. The majority doesn't want the US completely out of it. Also this is Okinawa itself. You know that place you claim to know such about. But it must just be evil Amerikkka making the majority still want some US presence. They want half of the American air presence removed, according to the polls in the OP. Since American airpower is the key part of defending against Chinese aggression, I'm not the "on" being disingenuous here. The second half of your post is gibberish with Freudian overtones.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:24
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Effectronica posted:I am saying that the promise of American protection fails to convince against whatever reasons for opposition exist, for 80% of people on Okinawa. I'm saying you have no evidence to make this assertion.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:26
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drilldo squirt posted:I'm saying you have no evidence to make this assertion. Okay. 80% of people are opposed to the Henoko base. Therefore, they have decided to oppose it. Therefore, the arguments for its existence have failed to sway them. Therefore, statements like the one you are making are nonsense based in unreality, and I would advise you to get in tune with reality before posting any further.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:28
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Effectronica posted:Okay. 80% of people are opposed to the Henoko base. Therefore, they have decided to oppose it. Therefore, the arguments for its existence have failed to sway them. Therefore, statements like the one you are making are nonsense based in unreality, and I would advise you to get in tune with reality before posting any further. 80% of people in Okinawa are opposed to the henko base. Do you know the reasons why?
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Jan 24, 2016 17:29
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drilldo squirt posted:80% of people in Okinawa are opposed to the henko base. Do you know the reasons why? It doesn't matter for the purposes of the argument I am making.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:30
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Effectronica posted:It doesn't matter for the purposes of the argument I am making. It does actually. The reasons behind the opposition matter.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:32
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drilldo squirt posted:It does actually. The reasons behind the opposition matter. It does not matter for the purposes of the negative claim I am making, because I am not making a positive claim related to what Okinawans believe. I am sorry that you are trying to mimic what other people do, inexpertly, but you really should stop and find another way to work out your problems than this insane argument that is only happening because of the craven moderation staff.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:36
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Effectronica posted:It does not matter for the purposes of the negative claim I am making, because I am not making a positive claim related to what Okinawans believe. I am sorry that you are trying to mimic what other people do, inexpertly, but you really should stop and find another way to work out your problems than this insane argument that is only happening because of the craven moderation staff. You're saying the people who filled out the poll did so with the implicit choice of America and China on their minds, that's an assumption.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:39
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I'm saying we should look at why they made the choices they did instead of fixing it to a world view that one wishes was correct.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:40
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drilldo squirt posted:You're saying the people who filled out the poll did so with the implicit choice of America and China on their minds, that's an assumption. Actually, I did not say that anywhere. That is your assumption. I am assuming that the people who filled out the poll are probably aware of the justifications for the American bases, and I will gladly concede that I am making an assumption that Okinawans are not stupid. I am sorry that I am not a racist. drilldo squirt posted:I'm saying we should look at why they made the choices they did instead of fixing it to a world view that one wishes was correct. Stop talking to the air.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:44
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Effectronica posted:I am saying that the assured defense offered by American military bases fails to convince 80% of Okinawans that the bases are a good thing. This is incontrovertible. It would be very painful- for you- to try to assault this, because it's just restating the facts. Just a reminder of what you said. If you're not going to engage with me honestly I don't even know why you are here.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:46
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drilldo squirt posted:Just a reminder of what you said. If you're not going to engage with me honestly I don't even know why you are here. I'm sorry that the fists of my feeble intellect are unable to force my ideas through the impenetrable iron curtain surrounding your brain. I am not going to repeat myself for the fourth or fifth time explaining to you that this is a negative claim, not a positive claim. I am not going to define those terms for you, because they are ones you should know, Dexter's Secret.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:48
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Can you too gently caress already?
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Jan 24, 2016 17:49
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Effectronica posted:I'm sorry that the fists of my feeble intellect are unable to force my ideas through the impenetrable iron curtain surrounding your brain. I am not going to repeat myself for the fourth or fifth time explaining to you that this is a negative claim, not a positive claim. I am not going to define those terms for you, because they are ones you should know, Dexter's Secret. First of all, I'm not dexter's secret, that's a super messed up thing to say. Also, resorting to personal attacks doesn't put your argument in a good light.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:52
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Effectronica, it seems pretty trivial to come up with a list of reasons the Okinawan people want the bases shrunken/removed, if such a thing exists. I'm not buying that "it doesn't matter" any more than you'd buy "it doesn't matter" as a reason for the bases' existence. Why are you so upset about producing this evidence?
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Jan 24, 2016 18:49
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Sagebrush posted:Effectronica, it seems pretty trivial to come up with a list of reasons the Okinawan people want the bases shrunken/removed, if such a thing exists. I'm not buying that "it doesn't matter" any more than you'd buy "it doesn't matter" as a reason for the bases' existence. Why are you so upset about producing this evidence? I'm melting down because I've been logic'd by all the people who worry about the Chinese trying to conquer the world. Or, alternatively, I dislike this inquisitorial thing where you demand I go along with your understanding of reality but you don't have the decency to start physically torturing me first!
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Jan 24, 2016 18:50
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Effectronica is arguing that 80% of Okinawans don't want the base, and he's assuming that they are all informed individuals and that, consequently, by saying they don't want the bases while aware of the geopolitical implications of not having them, they're willing to "take their chances with China." What I don't understand is why he's assuming that 100% of these Okinawan respondents are all well-informed and have considered the consequences of their positions. When has that ever been the case for any poll conducted ever?
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Jan 24, 2016 18:55
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I won't be happy if they build an airport right next to my home but that doesn't mean I don't want air travel in my country.
EasternBronze fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 19:06
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Fojar38 posted:Effectronica is arguing that 80% of Okinawans don't want the base, and he's assuming that they are all informed individuals and that, consequently, by saying they don't want the bases while aware of the geopolitical implications of not having them, they're willing to "take their chances with China." 80% of them don't want the US to have as much of a presence as it does. The Majority still want a US presence. He its saying because 80% want a reduction in some form that they want the PRC. Which is a lie. But then he does think we're all pedophile supporters.
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Jan 24, 2016 19:53
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Many places (Puerto Rico, Guam, Philippines, and Hawaii to some extent) have figured out the hard way that military installations bring in a ton of money to the local economy. I am pretty sure if the U.S. packed up and left, Okinawans would find their economy in shambles.
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Jan 24, 2016 19:55
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Someone also pointed out the parallels between this thread and the Eastern Europe thread from 2 years ago and yeah it really is weird how we're seeing the exact same "US is escalating by not abandoning its smaller allies that don't want to be dominated by the powerful autocracy next door" rhetoric that we saw then.
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Jan 24, 2016 19:58
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Fojar38 posted:Someone also pointed out the parallels between this thread and the Eastern Europe thread from 2 years ago and yeah it really is weird how we're seeing the exact same "US is escalating by not abandoning its smaller allies that don't want to be dominated by the powerful autocracy next door" rhetoric that we saw then.
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Jan 24, 2016 20:01
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Fojar38 posted:Someone also pointed out the parallels between this thread and the Eastern Europe thread from 2 years ago and yeah it really is weird how we're seeing the exact same "US is escalating by not abandoning its smaller allies that don't want to be dominated by the powerful autocracy next door" rhetoric that we saw then. Also just like before we're seeing the old argument that because the country isn't a nice democracy like the USA it should be left to hang.
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Jan 24, 2016 20:04
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If Japan isn't a "nice" democracy than literally nowhere is. It has its problems but in terms of quality of life and overall democratic freedom it's in the top tier. Strange now though to see the banner of States Rights being taken up in here of all places.
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Jan 24, 2016 20:15
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https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2014/japan What a sham democracy
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Jan 24, 2016 20:20
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A Buttery Pastry posted:It's a real pity the US just can't stop imperializing all over the place. What the neocons did to the Middle East sucks, yes, but to say that therefore the moral impetus somehow lies with Plucky Little Russia/China is some hilarious poo poo Crowsbeak posted:Also just like before we're seeing the old argument that because the country isn't a nice democracy like the USA it should be left to hang. Uh, yeah? Just because the US has not always lived up to liberal democratic ideals doesn't mean we should throw them out icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 20:34
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Chomskyan posted:Yes I think they probably would if they planned to invade Taiwan as a deterrent to US intervention (or if not, certainly after US intervention). There's also a significant risk of an accidental launch when tensions are high on both sides. Your plan to "put China in its place" or whatever you're thinking risks the end of human civilization. Ok, so you think the US is the escalating aggressor in the West Pacific. But you also think China would start a nuclear war if they're not allowed to annex their democratic neighbor by force. How do you hold both those ideas in your head at the same time? I think China is aggressive, but rational. I think they know starting a conflict with the US would be suicidal. I think the only way they'd consider taking Taiwan by force was if their local military supremacy was so strong that they felt they could take Taiwan before any significant US response. So if the US keeps a strong military presence nearby (in Okinawa) China will behave rationally and not invade Taiwan. quote:What I've learned from reading JeffersonClay posts: As I've patiently tried to explain to you, since you don't understand the delicate diplomatic situation that surrounds China and Taiwan, the US's official position on Taiwan is designed to placate the Chinese. The US "does not support" Taiwanese independence. The US also states that it will help defend Taiwan in the event China invades by force. And were the US to allow China to invade by force, every other country that relies on the US for protection and is threatened by China (South Korea, Japan, Phillipines, Thailand) would start looking for a hard counter-- Nukes. Not defending Taiwan has a much greater risk of causing a nuclear war than defending it. Okinawa is ruled by the Japanese government in the status quo. Does Okinawa desire independence from the Japanese government? No. Taiwan is not ruled by the CCP in the status quo. Does Taiwan desire to be ruled by the CCP? No. You're the one making crazy assertions about people's desire for self-determination in the region, not me.
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Jan 24, 2016 20:36
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I also don't think lots of these people realize that they're following the playbooks of actors like Putin or the CCP so much as they just ascribe to the Sid Meier school of geopolitics where the only countries that matter are the great powers and everyone else is just a puppet of one of them.
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Jan 24, 2016 20:37
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icantfindaname posted:What the neocons did to the Middle East sucks, yes, but to say that therefore the moral impetus somehow lies with Plucky Little Russia/China is some hilarious poo poo  I have little sympathy for any argument which concludes that because the US is, let's say, an imperfect actor, that this therefore means they should let their geopolitical rivals run roughshod over a third party.Fojar38 posted:I also don't think lots of these people realize that they're following the playbooks of actors like Putin or the CCP so much as they just ascribe to the Sid Meier school of geopolitics where the only countries that matter are the great powers and everyone else is just a puppet of one of them.
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Jan 24, 2016 20:42
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I'm the one who pointed out the parallels between this thread and the Eastern Europe thread. Oops. Never mind me, then
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Jan 24, 2016 21:33
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Fojar38 posted:Effectronica is arguing that 80% of Okinawans don't want the base, and he's assuming that they are all informed individuals and that, consequently, by saying they don't want the bases while aware of the geopolitical implications of not having them, they're willing to "take their chances with China." No you see NIMBYism is a purely American phenomenon that does not exist in glorious Nippon. Effectronica posted:You're not reading what I am saying, and are thus deliberately hampering discussion. Away with you. I would tell Effectronica to shut up and go away but then again I'm already seeing another 1 week probation under your username 
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Jan 25, 2016 00:15
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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In fairness, there's obviously things the US can (and should) be doing to minimize their exposure, let go of the most valuable land and develop in more isolated areas, as well as giving up any area that serves no strategic purpose (don't care how many officers bitch about it, that golf course needs to go). Moving them around to other islands is also a good possibility, though you're balancing isolation with being able to use the civilian logistics systems. But I don't think a reduction in the US presence is something either the US or Japan wants, nor something that makes the region any safer, and actually makes it much worse.Fojar38 posted:I also don't think lots of these people realize that they're following the playbooks of actors like Putin or the CCP so much as they just ascribe to the Sid Meier school of geopolitics where the only countries that matter are the great powers and everyone else is just a puppet of one of them.
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Jan 25, 2016 08:26
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http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...n/#.VqZ0QBDQCUk Seems like NIMBYism trumps any united Okinawan/Ryukyuan identity in Ginowan at least.
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Jan 25, 2016 20:19
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Okinawa has a raw butt because they went from (relatively) recently being taken over by Japan, to then getting the sharpest deepest penetration of the American military spear in WW2 right into their hole like Kadaffi got in his last minutes. Then for some f-d up reason they were occupied for decades while the rest of Japan was let loose to modernize and get over everything in the past. On top of that America set up more bases per capita than anywhere else in Japan. Then of course the 1995 rape, which as horrible as it was, and the criminals were punished they will not shut the gently caress up about it. It isn't supported by statistics, they're ignoring all the raping their own men do. But for some reason 1995 makes headlines every day, forever. Things service members did like drunk driving 1,000 miles away would be accompanied with "And in 1995..." So Okinawa is tired of it all. They just want to be left alone. I get that. For all that and more I think the U.S. military should leave. I was stationed on several ships out of Japan. I had a house there. I lived there for 3 years. I visited Okinawa on occasion. It was very different, very rural and poor. It's a great strategic asset, but f-it. Get out. Most Japanese loved Americans and American military all over the rest of Japan. But then every port we visited there were protesters, and constant protesters outside the base. A very vocal minority. Okinawa I never saw any protesters, and on one occasion I delighted the people of the island when a friend and I purchased a couple local Okinawan instruments. I on the sanshin, my friend on a taiko, we marched through the streets playing horribly and singing in broken Japanese. Smiles and applause all around. Good people. Imposed upon. Infinite patience. Give 'em what they want. Take is slowly if needed. But let's get out.
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Jan 26, 2016 03:43
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