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Great Joe
Aug 13, 2008

Serperoth posted:

Bobbin, the manufacturers involved in Group B weren't (and still aren't) terribly concerned with the US market, since the US manufacturers have a good hold on that, so fuel economy already was a thing ("our" engines tend to be less... extravagant), and even the American offering in Grp. B (namely, the Ford RS200) was done by the European (UK, specifically) division of Ford.

And as to the "500 horsepower" thing, Petrolicious did a short video on a Lancia Delta S4 a couple of weeks ago, and the owner got 1000bhp from it in testing, with the 'normal' power of it being 550. The engine is 1.7 liters, for reference/comparison. And the "HF" tends to be pronounced "Akka Effe", it's Italian, not English :v: (it's short for High Fidelity.

Group B is very well defined by the :stonklol: emoticon. Real people were doing thousands of kilometres in cars that were as light and as powerful as possible, and not to mention the beatings they'd get while pushing them to the limit. As much as fans love the cars and the output, stuff like Toivonen's and Bettega's accidents were probably a matter of "when", not "if". :smith:
I say Five Hundred and not Cinquento, so there. :colbert:

(good post, really)

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Serperoth
Feb 21, 2013



Great Joe posted:

I say Five Hundred and not Cinquento, so there. :colbert:

(good post, really)

Yeah, it wasn't a serious complaint, it was just the first I'd heard it as Aitch Eff so I thought I'd be a bit pedantic.

(And thanks. My dad was into rallying back in the day, including racing as a codriver, so I'd have known some few stuff even if I had no interest in it. If it's ok to post more, or something, let me know, I wouldn't mind, especially about Group B or historical stuff)

hoonigan_neil
Feb 25, 2014

In Europe, several forces made passenger cars the way they are. Their small size comes from the need for maneuverability through crowded city centers with unplanned streets from the middle ages. The low displacement engines come not from fuel economy requirements, so much as the fact that from day one politicians, lobbied by the horse and rail industries, taxed motor carriages by their engine displacement as far back as the 19th century. In the modern era, environmental concerns, overpopulation, and the cost of oil continue to push vehicles of all countries of origin in this direction, though us Americans with our suburban commutes, interstate highway system, and lax taxation remain insulated from this moreso then say the UK or Italy.

Rally is one of the oldest forms of auto racing. In the beginning, rich thrillseekers would arrange cross continental trips simply to show off their toys and driving prowess to one another. As laws caught up, or regions became unstable, these races would become shorter in distance. The race would be broken up in 'stages', and competition would evolve into sticking to split times as opposed to all out speed. At a certain point, rally split off into either these long cross country treks on public roads, to officially sanctioned races for all out speed across rural or urban closed courses. The sanctioned events caught the eye of manufacturers, and soon you had everyone from Alpha to Vauxhall trying to turn homologated versions of their everyday cars into winning advertisements.

Meanwhile America, with our big roads, big cars, and big engines, took to flat sandy beaches, or the stop light on the main drag, or around the mountains in a car loaded with white lightning. As a result, our favored racing as a nation revolves around homologated cars of these qualities.

If you get the chance, check out "Drive On!" by L.J.K. Setright. It's a great read.

hoonigan_neil fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Jul 26, 2016

USMC_Karl
Nov 17, 2003

SUPPORTER OF THE REINSTATED LAWFUL HAWAIIAN GOVERNMENT. HAOLES GET OFF DA `AINA.
Just wanted to pop in and say thanks for this thread and the videos. I know it's a thankless task, but reading and watching everything is helping me out immensely. I'm still sticking with my 60's Renault though, cause it's just way too much fun.

Are you thinking about doing more leagues? I'd love to participate, although I seriously doubt I'd ever score a very good time. Since I'm playing on a PS4 maybe I can't?

USMC_Karl fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Jul 27, 2016

JFairfax
Oct 23, 2008

by FactsAreUseless
http://dailymotion.com/video/xty1w4_bbc-madness-on-wheels-rallying-s-craziest-years_shortfilms

just watch this for some absolutely incredible Group B footage, insight into why it was so popular and ultimately had to stop

Triple A
Jul 14, 2010

Your sword, sahib.
Group B was killed due to FIA over-reacting to manufacturers and local organizers skimping on safety issues. All it would have taken to fix the issue would be putting the fuel tank behind a firewall rather than under the seats. Secondly, a lot of south european rallies had crap marshaling which caused it's own issues. It was far easier to blame the car when the problem was a lot more complex than that.

JFairfax
Oct 23, 2008

by FactsAreUseless












strangely enough this sort of thing wasn't very safe

Triple A
Jul 14, 2010

Your sword, sahib.
Thanks for illustrating to the rest how the south european rallies had utterly awful marshaling and how it persisted all the way to the mid-90s in that last pic.

Great Joe
Aug 13, 2008

Yeah, that last one's a Toyota Celica GT-FOUR, right? Those things were in Group A

Triple A
Jul 14, 2010

Your sword, sahib.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AntTKfRO5po

And here's a video of how stupid crowded those stages got down there.

Kainblueriver
Aug 10, 2013
Oh my! That gives a new mean to "Don't Cut". I love the reaction of the driver and co-driver in the video. I assume things are improved these days, I haven't gotten a chance to check out modern rallying.

hoonigan_neil
Feb 25, 2014

It's a little more sane.

JFairfax
Oct 23, 2008

by FactsAreUseless

ScandiHoonigan posted:

It's a little more sane.



woohoo, they discovered plastic fences in portugal!

they don't give a gently caress about health and safety there, you can still smoke indoors - I went karting a couple of months back in Setubal and they just basically let us out on track in the karts without so much as a health and safety briefing. fantastic and very refreshing.

Great Joe
Aug 13, 2008

Part 8: Making mistakes in F2 Kit Cars

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY9bf9nhyp8

In the mid-to-late '90s, with Group B out of the way, the fastest times in the World Rally Championship were being set by Group A cars on dirt and F2 Kit Cars on the tarmac. The FIA 2-litre World Rally Championship had pretty lax restrictions on engines, and since turbos were still a bit early this gave F2 Kit Cars a bit of an edge on Group As. Both of the F2 Kit Cars on offer in Dirt Rally are in an FF configuration, so a healthy dose of handbrake doesn't hurt for getting through the tighter corners. As soon as you've gotten into oversteer, the front tires just kinda pull you into the turn, really. The '90s are also when rally teams started really really caring about suspension, so both cars have pretty nice and forgiving handling, even for FF cars.

Ceciltron
Jan 11, 2007

Text BEEP to 43527 for the dancing robot!
Pillbug
This is my favorite Dirt Rally video yet. I'm fascinated by the idea of kit kars, and the home building thereof.

Great Joe
Aug 13, 2008

I've been thinking about the Hawk HF3000 lately and apparently kit cars are just illegal here. :(

Great Joe
Aug 13, 2008

Part 9: Driving blind in an R4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4uJ7gaT4tM

So Dirt Rally skips over Group N in favour of the R4 class. The only car not represented is the Mitsubishi Lancer Evo IX, which would be kinda redundant anyway. As a modern introduction to rallying, the R4 cars do a pretty decent job of being slow and not oversteering unless your steering absolutely demands they do. They're only minimally modified from the street versions, have strict restrictions on engine displacement and so on. The Lancer Evo doesn't respond well to the handbrake except in very particular circumstance, so you're better off using copious amounts of left-foot braking.

Triple A
Jul 14, 2010

Your sword, sahib.
Pretty certain the Evo 9 would be a little bit faster than the Evo 10, if only due to it being about a 100 kilos lighter.

Great Joe
Aug 13, 2008

Hey, uh, this thread is kinda dead at the moment but I'm just gonna drop this thing here (update maybe coming tomorrow), alright?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Oq3Qg36I50

Ceciltron
Jan 11, 2007

Text BEEP to 43527 for the dancing robot!
Pillbug
Alright, sure, i like rally.

Great Joe
Aug 13, 2008

Part 10: The 2000s in Sweden

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5A8lAPLO1M

The 2007 Ford Focus RS Rally is a bit different from the home version, the biggest difference is that it's four-wheel drive! Yeah, the home version only comes in front-wheel drive and that's it. It's a pretty fun car to drive, especially for its class. It continues the trend of cars getting more stable and manageable with suspensions and driving assists becoming more complex to the point that going into oversteer by just flooring the accelerator isn't really an option. The handbrake also becomes less useful as time goes on, you really have to learn to left-foot brake to get good, consistent results. The uneven demands on torque in Sweden do make it impossible to rely on anything but a manual transmission; you will spin out any time you hit a snow bank unless you gear down aggressively, and you won't have control on powdered snow unless you stay at the upper-middle of the rev range.

Great Joe fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Sep 5, 2016

USMC_Karl
Nov 17, 2003

SUPPORTER OF THE REINSTATED LAWFUL HAWAIIAN GOVERNMENT. HAOLES GET OFF DA `AINA.

Great Joe posted:

you really have to learn to left-foot brake to get good, consistent results

Man is this true. I'm still very much in the "yeah I finished in the top 5 of clubman races!" stage of rally, but I've been finding myself doing much much better by using the brake pedal to try to regulate some of my car's more squirrelly moments. And what you (and pretty much everyone else) says really bears repeating, slow is fast! When I started to slow my car down, I started to speed my times up.

Your videos helped me a lot and I hope to someday graduate above the '60s, but for now I'm staying in my Renault Alpine until I feel a little more confident in it. I figure I should be able to handle the slower junk before I move up to the suicidally fast stuff. Nothing feels better than finally negotiating some crazy course that has been totally killing you, though.

Great Joe
Aug 13, 2008

I really recommend you try the R4 and 2000s classes in Custom Event and going back to Championships in the Opel Kadett. It's such an easy car compared to the others in that class, it feels like cheating.

USMC_Karl
Nov 17, 2003

SUPPORTER OF THE REINSTATED LAWFUL HAWAIIAN GOVERNMENT. HAOLES GET OFF DA `AINA.

Great Joe posted:

I really recommend you try the R4 and 2000s classes in Custom Event and going back to Championships in the Opel Kadett. It's such an easy car compared to the others in that class, it feels like cheating.

Well I know what I'm going to do this weekend! Thanks for the recommendation, I'll let you know how well it goes.

Great Joe
Aug 13, 2008

Oh, looks like I'm gonna have to delay the next video a bit. Life's happening, but I'm gonna try to keep this going.

Great Joe
Aug 13, 2008

Part 11: The 2010s and yeah it's over

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C94cuxXGIU0

So this series went fancier as time went on into the Group Bs and I'm gonna admit the rest were me kinda dragging my feet. I feel the game in general kinda feels that way. Making Group B not be the most expensive tier of car is still bewildering to me as a design choice.

Well, I'm done. Thanks for watching, everybody. I hope you learnt something from the first half and maybe even had fun. Not sure if I'm doing another series soon. We'll see.

Red_Fred
Oct 21, 2010


Fallen Rib
I haven't played Dirt Rally is quite a while (can't find my controller after I moved) but thanks for doing this, I enjoyed your videos.

Great Joe
Aug 13, 2008

Oh right, I guess I might as well mention that I kinda sorta weaseled my way into this totally cool LP of Need for Speed: The Run featuring MY HERO Jack Rourke by Corn in the Bible.

Great Joe
Aug 13, 2008

I'll be mopping up a few loose ends in a stream tomorrow. It's gonna be at 4 PM EST. I'll be driving three cars I feel got left out during the course of the LP. It's gonna be pretty casual, but I don't think that's such a bad thing.

Ceciltron
Jan 11, 2007

Text BEEP to 43527 for the dancing robot!
Pillbug

Great Joe posted:

I'll be mopping up a few loose ends in a stream tomorrow. It's gonna be at 4 PM EST. I'll be driving three cars I feel got left out during the course of the LP. It's gonna be pretty casual, but I don't think that's such a bad thing.

I'll be there. I expect to serve myself light snacks and refreshment. I suggest others drop by and do likewise!

Great Joe
Aug 13, 2008

Alright, now it is the time for the mop-up. Starting with the Alpine A110.

https://youtu.be/SS1HDBytew8

Some technical difficulties. Be back soon!

Great Joe fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Oct 23, 2016

Great Joe
Aug 13, 2008

Alright, it's back on.

https://youtu.be/9y-sPUmRfJc

Great Joe
Aug 13, 2008

That's it. Pretty much everything I meant to show off has been addressed in some form or another. Stream video will be posted tomorrow in some capacity.

Great Joe
Aug 13, 2008

Part 12: The mop-up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHa-6g0_FVE

This is a stream recording I did with my buddy Ceciltron, showing off three cars I felt got left out a bit: The Renault Alpine A110, which is the only absolutely rear-engined car in this game, the Lancia 037, which was their first foray into Group B before dominating with their various Deltas and finally the Citroen DS 3, just to show off some gameplay in the Rallycross Supercars. Looking back I maybe shouldn't have set the opponents to Very hard considering I hadn't fully upgraded it, but here we are.

I'll be leaving this thread open for three days before locking it and sending it off to Baldurk. Thanks to everyone who posted, also to those who just lurked and watched, and a special thanks to everybody who came in to co-commentate. :)

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Ceciltron
Jan 11, 2007

Text BEEP to 43527 for the dancing robot!
Pillbug
My secret shame now public! Joe exposes my failings yet again in the automotive world!

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