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On the other hand, given that people would have to purchase it to play it and streams/LPs/whatever were readily available, even if it doesn't look like a MOBA (except for maybe small portions of map design if you think lanes are MOBA exclusive), it's not a stretch to assume that many people who never played it thought that MOBA or not, DoW3 didn't look like a fun game or a Dawn of War game. It certainly doesn't look like any MOBA I've ever played, but I'm not going to buy it because it looks like a horribly unfun piece of poo poo. If not forking over the purchase price to Relic denies me my right to say it doesn't look like a game I want to play in your mind, I'm fine with that tradeoff and keeping the money.
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Feb 12, 2018 07:54
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Khisanth Magus posted:Actually they were very obviously, to me at least, aiming towards more vanilla wc3. Which DotA was admittedly a mod of but the gameplay has no real similarities beyond the most barebones comparisons. Actually all of the WC3 core hero gameplay is how DotA and ultimately all MOBAs came to be. DOTA just strips all of the RTS elements out, automating that process for you while you essentially play the part of WC3 that was innovative and felt most rewarding to people. I think anyone would have been happy with an improved take on either DOW game, instead of a weird third thing where Relic made clear that they didn't understand the appeal of either game.
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Feb 12, 2018 08:36
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Khisanth Magus posted:
Pretty sure the 6500 reviews on Steam, of which less than 50% are positive, would indicate at least some people ignored the word of mouth and simply didn't enjoy it.
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Feb 12, 2018 09:33
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To me, DoW3 seemed to be almost like a Warcraft 3-lite. The only MOBA comparison I could make would be some of the map configirations,. People weren't expecting Relic to reinvent the wheel here. They already had a pedigree in make, strong, durable, well crafted ones that help move the industry along. Why they decided to go back to a stone disc with a hole knocked in the middle of it, I will never understand. Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Feb 12, 2018 |
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Feb 12, 2018 10:44
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Ibbz posted:Pretty sure the 6500 reviews on Steam, of which less than 50% are positive, would indicate at least some people ignored the word of mouth and simply didn't enjoy it. There was a concentrated effort by Reddit and 4chan to review bomb and refund, but I doubt it even created a third of the reviews.
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Feb 12, 2018 14:08
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Ibbz posted:Pretty sure the 6500 reviews on Steam, of which less than 50% are positive, would indicate at least some people ignored the word of mouth and simply didn't enjoy it. The amount of reviews that call the game a moba is absurd.
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Feb 12, 2018 14:51
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I can't really hold the MOBA whining against people that much. The core multiplayer game mode that they released the game with was quite literally the core game mode in all of the most popular mobas. You pushed down your enemy's outer shield generators to reach their inner turrets to reach their core to blow it up; it's basically the same game progression as pushing down outer towers to reach inner towers to reach core/nexus/ancient in LOL/DOTA/HOTS/etc; sniping off the enemy's gens/towers even gives you large lump sum resource bonuses to get an edge on your enemy like LOL/DOTA. It had little resemblance to either traditional RTS "annihilate the enemy's base" gameplay or traditional Dawn of War/CoH "capture and hold strategic points to win" gameplay. Having played it for a couple dozen hours, I'm well aware that the actual gameplay is pretty much Warcraft 3, and it doesn't play like a MOBA at all in practice. I just can't blame people for getting the idea that the game is MOBA-esque when that's literally what the core game mode of the game looks like.
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Feb 12, 2018 16:57
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I don't know what happened but mechanically it is the most bog standard template RTS Relic has ever made. This is the company that revolutionized RTS gameplay with every release. Homeworld added vertical maneuvering into space combat RTS games, Dawn of War added squads, field reinforcements and fire and maneuver mechanics. Company of Heroes added unit veterancy to squads and hijacking enemy weapons beyond what warcraft 3 did with hero level ups. Dawn of War 2 refined elements from Dow1 and company of heroes and overhauled the singleplayer into an RTS Diablo game. Company of Heroes 2 added environmental dangers like thin ice. What did dawn of war 3 bring to the table Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Feb 12, 2018 |
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Feb 12, 2018 17:21
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Det_no posted:The amount of reviews that call the game a moba is absurd. Which doesn't really matter because the game was dog poo poo regardless of any review bombing. They needed to do two things. Make DOW 1.5 or DOW 2.5 and Make Last Stand 2. Heck I'm pretty sure if they just released the game as Last Stand 2, with 4 races they' would have had a great success.
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Feb 12, 2018 17:25
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The multiplayer beta really killed what already-diminished interest in the game. I'm sure part of it was due to unfamiliarity, but the map and gameplay design was such that every match led to either team fortifying their nearby resources and then just sitting around building up armies and Elites before going for a push. Rinse and repeat. Skirmishing was limited and unenjoyable, and since there weren't any VPs to fight over, there didn't seem much point in rushing. Instead you had these giant, powerful turrets that you practically had to be T3 to take down without heavy losses.
Mordja fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Feb 12, 2018 |
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Feb 12, 2018 17:37
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I really liked it when they brought back annihilation as if it was a big deal. Their refusal to add a DoW/CoH-style victory points mode always confused me. Their new game mode was awful and didn't even make any sense to begin with. It would have been a completely different game with VPs. Still not great or even close to what it should have been, but VPs always added a nice sense of dynamism as they changed hands throughout a match.
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Feb 12, 2018 17:45
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To continue the faction complaints, I can also see why 3 races was seen as a step back. DOW 1 had the main 3 and Chaos as a surprise guest antagonist. DOW 2 had the main 3 and Tyranids as a surprise guest antagonist. DOW 3 teased the hell out of Necrons, but when it came time to deliver only gave the main 3 factions. I don't think people would've freaked out if the game didn't launch with Genestealer Cults or Sisters of Battle, but the third game having less factions than any other vanilla entry is disappointing.
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Feb 12, 2018 18:17
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Mordja posted:The multiplayer beta really killed what already-diminished interest in the game. I'm sure part of it was due to unfamiliarity, but the map and gameplay design was such that every match led to either team fortifying their nearby resources and then just sitting around building up armies and Elites before going for a push. Rinse and repeat. Skirmishing was limited and unenjoyable, and since there weren't any VPs to fight over, there didn't seem much point in rushing. Instead you had these giant, powerful turrets that you practically had to be T3 to take down without heavy losses. The best DOW 1 maps were the ones that avoided lanes but had easily identifiable choke points or central mosh pits. They made these massive carnage battles where you throw everything at the enemy but unit survivability was enough that you could win through superior tactics and endurance rather than 200+ guardsman or Orks being wiped in thirty seconds. I also liked how in DOW 2 you could hold your own against a player at a higher tier provided you know what you are doing, whereas here it's a race to T3 before you start spamming your timer heroes.
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Feb 12, 2018 21:30
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Stanley Pain posted:Which doesn't really matter because the game was dog poo poo regardless of any review bombing. Exactly this - they pretty much sold Last Stand as its own game at one point, so why wouldn't they have simply split off a small team to make Last Stand 2, and then do a 'normal' followup to the Dawn of War 1 or 2? Bizarre. Also, the Glassdoor review ("One bad game away from the studio shutting down") highlights some of the internal issues - https://www.glassdoor.com.au/Reviews/Relic-Entertainment-Reviews-E533032.htm quote:- We need to look at a different system of developing games where the balance of power and decision making isn't placed on a couple of people who ignore team feedback and lead us down the wrong path. It caused a critical failure with Dawn of War 3 and it's now causing our next big game to be an epic failure as well because the team's opinions simply don't matter. It's insane that a couple of team members decide the entire direction of the game without any real effort to get input and buy-in from the team. This approach could work if we had the right visionary type people, but we don't - instead we have design leadership who are invisible, out-of-touch or who are extremely difficult to work with due to their arrogance and bully-like approach.
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Feb 13, 2018 07:56
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Wow they're ducking up the new AoE as well.
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Feb 13, 2018 08:23
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i think the moba-lite complaints are just an inelegant way of saying the gameplay wasn't stellar at all, i see the moba comment in an awful lot in smaller 40k channels that have done dow3 extreme hero/elite unit supremacy are strictly a poor balancing issue that i guess, if you squint at, looks like a moba inspired change even tho its mostly a problem of certain units not feeling they're worth their cost in resources or time spent in micro-management ... that's just mediocre design but one that could be balanced with diligent patching (which didn't really happen); the gate-gate-nexus-bash core multiplayer mode can also look like a moba thing when its issue is more that its underlying design doesn't encourage as much early engagements/fighting for strategic map control as spread out objectives do, likewise simpler maps aren't necessarily aping moba design choices - they're just less interesting map designs (but with pretty textures i guess); eliminating sync kills is a choice to make the game more competitive and the expense of flavor/character that looks like its trying to chase the twitch e-sports scene even tho finding a good balance between accurately depicting the unique brutality of the 40k verse and creating fun gameplay has always been a problem for the franchise ... the problem is that dow3 lazily didn't even try for alternatives like eye-catching brutal ranged sync kills so it's just like they made a hard cut of a feature; likewise reducing suppression, cover, retreat, disruption/knockback, etc mechanics without giving much of anything back is like releasing a sequel with less technical features even tho most are still there in subtler forms - at its surface this simplification looks like its trying to blend the fully automated units from mobas with ability rich rts units even tho it's strictly a problem of reduced gameplay diversity and/or visual feedback of different effects i could go on but i think the problem is just that dow3 didn't make very smart design choices that lend themselves to solid rts gameplay so overall it comes off as mediocre - it's not totally awful like a very vocal group says and i can see some people having fun with it but it's just too much of a mixed-bag without a real direction for many others hard counter fucked around with this message at 08:49 on Feb 13, 2018 |
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Feb 13, 2018 08:46
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I'm usually a positive guy but I tried this game and felt there was nothing to.lime or enjoy. More than a RTS it felt like a badly designed pinball game. I love all Company of Heroes, all Dawn of Wars but there was nothing for me to love on DOW3 other than the art. I do hope they get back on track and learn something from it.
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Feb 13, 2018 09:20
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