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Kopijeger posted:This usually happens in locations where there are plenty other tourists around. And I don't mind being asked about directions if they use the local language to do so. Hell, it has even happened in Italy when I thought I was too pale and northern European to pass as a local. I point them in the right direction if I know, or tell them "I don't know" if not. The key point is this: do they demonstrate a willingness to adapt to the location they are visiting? Kopijeger posted:When did I ever say that people shouldn't go on trips? The point is that they shouldn't expect every other person, whether locals or other tourists, to adapt to their whims when they go abroad. I'm absolutely not seeing the supposedly horrible act of asking someone something on the street in English as "expecting others to adapt to their whims". It's a simple question they're asking. If they're not being understood, or get no reply, fine. You're acting like they're holding the locals by their shirt and yelling "Sing and dance for us, yokel, dance the tarantella and sing us the songs of your ancestors" while dropping some coins on the ground. Europe simply has a lot of small countries with very different languages. Earwicker posted:There's nothing wrong with quick trips but IMO it is rude to go to a country and not learn at least rudimentary stuff like hello, thank you, good night, where is the X, etc. Even if I'm just changing planes in the Frankfurt airport for a few hours I'll still greet the people who work there in German first before resorting to English. You don't need to be fully "conversational" and it's really not hard to learn the basics. I'm simply not seeing it as rude at all to suddenly decide to go to another country nearby spontaneously with a few friends or while on a larger trip or whatever without being expected to prepare. To me what gets advocated here looks like some weird mixture of cultural superiority feelings and a kind of cultural guilt trip. I promise you that I won't judge you on your language skills or lack thereof when you're a tourist. Mr. Smile Face Hat fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Aug 29, 2016 |
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Aug 29, 2016 20:32
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flavor posted:You know, seriously, it's great if someone takes the time, but I think it has to be possible also to not do this and still be treated and seen as a human being. I'll certainly still think of you and treat you as a human being, but a human being who's kind of a dick. It doesn't make you some horrible ignorant person but it seems lazy and rude. It does not take much time or effort to learn at least how to say hello to someone in their own language when you are visiting their country, and not putting in at least that little bit of effort is just showing you don't care and expect people to cater to you. flavor posted:. To me what gets advocated here looks like some weird mixture of cultural superiority feelings and a kind of cultural guilt trip. To me it's just basic politeness. And this isn't to say you "can't take spontaneous trips". If you can put the effort into buying a plane or train ticket or arranging a hotel you can just as easily, while you are at it, look up some basic words. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Aug 29, 2016 |
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Aug 29, 2016 22:22
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Earwicker posted:I'll certainly still think of you and treat you as a human being, but a human being who's kind of a dick. It doesn't make you some horrible ignorant person but it seems lazy and rude. It does not take much time or effort to learn at least how to say hello to someone in their own language when you are visiting their country, and not putting in at least that little bit of effort is just showing you don't care and expect people to cater to you. The problem I'm having with all of this is that you're holding all people to your own standards. I speak several languages and would certainly learn a few words for a trip if that's practical. However, that becomes completely pointless if I can't even understand the reply. I would almost certainly not understand "At the third intersection from over there, turn right at the bakery, then walk about 100 meters and there'll be a big building on the left side of the street" in a language I don't speak more than ten words of. It's a waste of time for all involved to pretend to speak the language. Another issue is that people may be old, not that intelligent, got separated from their guided tour or whatever. Also not everybody is looking for perfect cultural immersion on a day trip, they may just want to have some fun, see some sights and get out again. Anyway, these language expectations are probably a very deeply held cultural belief in which we differ. I personally see people as dicks who treat people any differently for this.
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Aug 30, 2016 00:01
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flavor posted:The problem I'm having with all of this is that you're holding all people to your own standards. I speak several languages and would certainly learn a few words for a trip if that's practical. However, that becomes completely pointless if I can't even understand the reply. I would almost certainly not understand "At the third intersection from over there, turn right at the bakery, then walk about 100 meters and there'll be a big building on the left side of the street" in a language I don't speak more than ten words of. It's a waste of time for all involved to pretend to speak the language. I'm not talking about "pretending to speak the language", no idea where you are getting that. I'm talking about learning enough of the basics so that you can greet someone in their own language and then politely ask them if they speak English, and be able to thank them in their own language and wish them well. IMO it's rude to just walk up to someone or walk into a business and just start speaking English right off the bat, even if that's what the rest of the conversation is going to be in. I find people almost everywhere I travel really appreciate it if you make an effort, even with just "hello" and "thank you" and "have a good day". It goes a long way. flavor posted:Another issue is that people may be old, not that intelligent, got separated from their guided tour or whatever. Also not everybody is looking for perfect cultural immersion on a day trip, they may just want to have some fun, see some sights and get out again. Again I'm talking about super basic stuff, not "cultural immersion". Old people and unintelligent people are perfectly capable of learning this kind of stuff and there is often a page of these sort of basic terms in most kinds of tour books. Often with that specific audience in mind! Also, outside of politeness, it's a pretty good idea to learn how to say poo poo like "I need a doctor" or "I'm lost". Which, again, is also basic stuff that is easy to find in all kinds of tour books. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Aug 30, 2016 |
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Aug 30, 2016 00:44
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Didn't see this on the first two pages but it is seemingly pretty easy to get a temporary work visa in Australia or New Zealand if you are under 30. Two downsides to this: one is that it is only good for a year, though that gives time to search for other options. The other is that Australia has apparently implemented a 32% tax on the incomes of foreigners. I was considering doing this myself but that is pretty steep and the COL is already more expensive than the US. New Zealand doesn't have this tax but is very isolated. Pretty anti-US culture there as well from what I've read. I would like to get out as well (for different reasons) but emigrating anywhere permanently seems to be pretty difficult.
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Aug 30, 2016 04:21
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Tamarillo posted:I know my French pronunciation is truly, truly appalling and I garble even simple words so when in Paris I mostly kept with "Bonjour!" and a slightly sheepish "Parlez-vous anglais?" When we were sitting on the lawn in front of the Eiffel tower a drunk guy came up and started talking in rapid French and I interrupted him with a "Sorry..Anglais!" and his response was "Anglais?....Hahahaha! Peesss! Sheeeet! Hahahaha!" and then he tumbled into a bush and I didn't see him again. Hahaha
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Aug 30, 2016 04:24
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PT6A posted:The weirdest experience I ever had was at a laundromat in Madrid. I asked a guy who was there, in Spanish, if he needed to use the dryer, since his washing was done first. Instead of saying, "sorry, I don't speak Spanish," or something like that, he just said, "I haven't got any clue what you're saying," in a rather thick English accent. Why on earth is this weird
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Aug 30, 2016 10:58
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I'm from one of those countries nobody in their right mind would bother to learn the (basics of) language of when they visit Amsterdam and you are delusional if you think I'd bother learning Czech phrases for visiting Prague for half a week.
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Aug 30, 2016 16:16
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Namarrgon posted:and you are delusional if you think I'd bother learning Czech phrases for visiting Prague for half a week. Agreed. If your language has less than 50 million speakers i'm not learning a single word of it.
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Aug 30, 2016 17:15
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NihilismNow posted:Agreed. If your language has less than 50 million speakers i'm not learning a single word of it. My language has 260 million speakers, but the word for hello has a three letter consonant cluster followed by a four letter consonant cluster, so gently caress if I expect anyone to learn any basic words. Those who try can't pronounce it anyway, 10 times out of 10 I can't recognize the words.
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Aug 30, 2016 17:30
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NihilismNow posted:Agreed. If your language has less than 50 million speakers i'm not learning a single word of it. I was hoping to illustrate that it was not merely an American (or other English native) centric worldview, as someone from a language that is for all intents and purposes minor, I would not expect someone to learn the local language when visiting. Because honestly, the other poster is correct. Even if I can ask for directions to the train station in Czech, there is no possible way I can understand them, so the whole thing will have to go in English or in gestures anyway. So what is the point besides bragging to your coworkers that you are ~so worldly~.
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Aug 30, 2016 18:09
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Seriously. Sorry, excuse me, hello, and do you speak [insert language you actually know here] are things you should probably learn in the local language even as a tourist, but it's kinda weird to expect visitors to make the leap from phonetically memorising a handful of words to actually leanring a language unless they plan to stay.
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Aug 30, 2016 18:31
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Namarrgon posted:Because honestly, the other poster is correct. Even if I can ask for directions to the train station in Czech, there is no possible way I can understand them, so the whole thing will have to go in English or in gestures anyway. So what is the point besides bragging to your coworkers that you are ~so worldly~. Again, I'm not talking about "learning the language" I'm talking about simple stuff like hello, goodbye, do you speak English, thank you, have a good day. the point is to be polite, nothing to do with being "worldly". It really doesn't take that long at all to learn this stuff and everywhere I have travelled people generally really appreciate it.
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Aug 30, 2016 18:42
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Earwicker posted:Again, I'm not talking about "learning the language" Yeah, you're not talking about learning the language, just about, you know, learning the language. And when someone tries it one me, sure I politely act impressed, but there's a concept of feeling embarrassed/ashamed for someone else (there's even a German word for it: Fremdschämen.). Be all that as it may, I get why you're doing it and so on, but what puts it over the top for me is that you're basing your judgement of people of being "rude" or "lazy" on it. There are some situations where it's simply not practical to prepare something, and I think you're rude and mentally lazy to not acknowledge that. Alexeythegreat posted:My language has 260 million speakers, but the word for hello has a three letter consonant cluster followed by a four letter consonant cluster, so gently caress if I expect anyone to learn any basic words. Those who try can't pronounce it anyway, 10 times out of 10 I can't recognize the words. Reminds of thinking "What the hell is a 'doxin' supposed to be? Some kind of poison?" Turns out it was supposed to be "dachshund", which is hard to pronounce for native English speakers (and therefore hard to make out), and super formal, antiquated and unusual in contemporary German, where they're called "dackel" instead.
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Aug 30, 2016 23:58
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flavor posted:Yeah, you're not talking about learning the language, just about, you know, learning the language. I'm not. Learning a small handful of words/phrases is not "learning the language". quote:And when someone tries it one me, sure I politely act impressed, but there's a concept of feeling embarrassed/ashamed for someone else (there's even a German word for it: Fremdschämen.). It takes like half an hour at most to learn how to say basic stuff like "hello" and "excuse me do you speak English?" in most languages. Outside of having to go to another country very suddenly in some kind of emergency situation (which is not what we've been talking about at all here and generally doesn't fall under "tourism"), I don't see how it's so impractical. It takes as little or less effort than arranging the travel itself.
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Aug 31, 2016 02:29
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Situation 1 Foreigner: "Excuse me, I'm sorry but I'm not from here. Do you know where the nearest station is?" National: "Listen here you loving rear end in a top hat, you better learn to say 'excuse me' in my language or get the gently caress out!" Situation 2 Foreigner: "Uhhhh....Excuse' Moi....Where...uh...Ou...est...*Flips through tour book for 30 seconds*...la gare? Ou est le gare?" National: Wow, I am genuinely happy that you have spoken to me in my native tongue. I have a deep appreciation for the effort you put in to learn my culture and traditions in the three days you are visiting my country. I will gladly help you, and you may consider yourself a friend of my people for as long as you live.
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Aug 31, 2016 03:33
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a dog from hell posted:Didn't see this on the first two pages but it is seemingly pretty easy to get a temporary work visa in Australia or New Zealand if you are under 30. Haha we aren't anti-US in NZ although we'll laugh at you if you're a dick. Seriously though all you need to do to get most New Zealanders fawning all over you regardless of nationality is to say "Wow your country is so beautiful and amazing and wow" because we have a nationwide inferiority complex and open up like a flower in the sun if our country is cossetted and complimented.
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Sep 3, 2016 11:51
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Only very few countries are anti-US in the sense of actually disliking individual Americans. Mostly it is a "we dislike your nation's leadership and NSA". Just emphasize that you hate and hated Bush and you'll be fine. e. and Trump.
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Sep 3, 2016 15:21
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I've only spent like a week in NZ but the people there seemed exceedingly mellow and I got the impression that whatever they are "anti-", they will express their views about it very calmly. Certainly wasn't treated badly for being American.
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Sep 3, 2016 17:01
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Tamarillo posted:Haha we aren't anti-US in NZ although we'll laugh at you if you're a dick. Seriously though all you need to do to get most New Zealanders fawning all over you regardless of nationality is to say "Wow your country is so beautiful and amazing and wow" because we have a nationwide inferiority complex and open up like a flower in the sun if our country is cossetted and complimented. How difficult is it to find low-skill work that pays the bills? I want to apply for the visa next year but my biggest concern is finding a viable working/housing situation before I run out of money. I imagine this can be prepared for but I'd love to hear a Kiwi's view. There is a blog dedicated to bitter visitors to your country. This guy is amusing due to the sheer size of his sour grapes. https://e2nz.org/goodbye-new-zealand/
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Sep 3, 2016 18:20
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a dog from hell posted:How difficult is it to find low-skill work that pays the bills? I want to apply for the visa next year but my biggest concern is finding a viable working/housing situation before I run out of money. It depends on what kind of low skill you're talking - retail it shouldn't be too hard (especially if you know your way around a coffee machine) but admin office jobs might be a little more challenging - you could probably do temp work though. Just base yourself out of a city and you should be okay, and avoid trying to live in Queenstown. a dog from hell posted:There is a blog dedicated to bitter visitors to your country. This guy is amusing due to the sheer size of his sour grapes. Yeah this is less indicative of NZ and more about that guy's deep seated mental health problems. There are some crap managers out there but on the whole I would categorically disagree with most of what he is saying, especially the corruption element which simply isn't the case (having worked in the Govt sector for quite some time myself). If I was to hazard a guess as to why he had issues at work, judging by the length of his histrionic rant I would say it was because he was a tightly-wound, arrogant and confrontational rear end in a top hat who experienced culture-clash in an environment allergic to arrogance and confrontation. I'd suggest there are probably better blogs out there to source more balanced (and sane) info about what it's actually like living here.
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Sep 3, 2016 23:58
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I think this premise is flawed:Idiot posted:The main reason I left was that I felt that the United States faced an irreversible economic and social decline. America was no longer a free country and the government was tyrannical in many ways, as evidenced by Edward Snowden’s recent revelations. I had also grown tired of the appalling stupidity and ignorance of large swathes of the population and I saw that the United States was becoming an increasingly dysfunctional society. The government in the US is bankrupt and living on borrowed time.
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Sep 4, 2016 01:39
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So, did the OP flee to Canada already?
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Sep 8, 2016 06:06
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If by some miracle they actually do, it will only take the Canadians voting in a Prime Minister who is slightly to the right of Lenin before he freaks out and threatens to move to *Generic outrage country #2*.
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Sep 8, 2016 22:43
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