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Moscow before Winter. Huh, who'dve thought. Good work to all participants. edit: Wow, what a page snipe. Update on previous page.
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Mar 30, 2017 13:16
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| # ? Apr 23, 2024 07:40 |
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congratulations, MONSTERS
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Mar 30, 2017 13:21
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MVPAG: Army Group North, of course. MVNAZI: Uh Von Leeb, for being a bro from the beginning LVNAZI: Hitler 
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Mar 30, 2017 14:27
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MVP is obviously AGN as a whole Best Nazi is the Logistics Couple Worst Nazi is... let's go with Himmler Also, thank you Davin for sticking around
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Mar 30, 2017 15:27
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"Civil Affairs" at zero - is that solely due to protesting the appointment of those administrators?
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Mar 30, 2017 15:27
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Kopijeger posted:"Civil Affairs" at zero - is that solely due to protesting the appointment of those administrators? Civil Affairs is a measure of how well you were able to control partisans, and I've never seen a German victory where Civil Affairs wasn't a one-star because every city you capture generates more partisan activity.
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Mar 30, 2017 15:34
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HannibalBarca posted:Civil Affairs is a measure of how well you were able to control partisans, and I've never seen a German victory where Civil Affairs wasn't a one-star because every city you capture generates more partisan activity. Would that be linked with the war crimes score? A lot of decisions affecting Nazi war crimes increased partisan activity when we didn't cave, so maybe a playthrough where the player tries to out-Hitler the boss would have heavily suppressed partisans.
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Mar 30, 2017 17:50
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1) AGN until I switched over to AGC 2) ME 3) Riso
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Mar 31, 2017 00:14
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oh you meant the in-game nazis...
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Mar 31, 2017 00:16
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Oh actually can I change my Worst Nazi to Riso, too?
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Mar 31, 2017 00:23
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Of course how can I forget the two highlights of the discord this game: 
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Mar 31, 2017 01:28
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Ouch. I got my teeth smashed in! Here's the Final Analysis that the game auto-generated for me. It says I'm to be shot at dawn... ...nuts to that! I want to play another game as the Germans, because you all make it look really fun! (Also because I haven't seen a game online make it to winter mechanics--one side or the other gives up before things get that far  )Thanks for running this, Saros, and I'd be happy to play again anytime!
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Mar 31, 2017 02:28
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That sure was brutal. How did it all go so wrong for the Soviets? Totally should swap sides, now.
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Mar 31, 2017 02:57
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Excellent game! Thanks to Saros and Davin Valkri for running it for us.Cassa posted:That sure was brutal. For one thing, the USSR had a really, really bad start, especially in the north, where they just randomly spawned in with a giant hole right through their lines to Riga. So within the first few turns we saw some really nasty encirclements and, in particular, a ton of dead Soviet tanks (check out the "tanks lost" graph). That put the Soviets in a vicious cycle where the army gets thrashed -> towns get captured -> Stalin freaks out -> USSR is in an even worse position -> they get thrashed again.
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Mar 31, 2017 06:28
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Thank you both. Saros for running the LP and Davin for not giving up until the very end. I guess it's rare in multiplayer games for the loser to continue playing even after the result is clear. This was a nice LP to follow.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:17
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markus_cz posted:Thank you both. Saros for running the LP and Davin for not giving up until the very end. I guess it's rare in multiplayer games for the loser to continue playing even after the result is clear. This was a nice LP to follow. Fully agreeing with this sentiment. Bravo to to vanquished.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:38
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I really would be interested in a more detailed retrospective from Davin, who I give major props for staying in to the end despite being turbofucked by the RNG with his initial setup.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:58
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Thanks everyone. I made a point to myself at game start to play to the bitter end, no matter how bad things looked. I'm glad people think the initial deployment screwed me as much as my own misplaying, though! For my own retrospective, I kept some notes, but they're very turn-to-turn reactive rather than broad plans, and really misinformed by a lack of clear knowledge about the mechanics. For example, I seriously overestimated terrain defense bonuses when I was trying to keep my troops playing keep-away, setting up big thick lines along things like rivers and forests that inevitably got levered open. Also I overestimated the effects of the cards. On one of the turns Saros mentioned some confusion about why I didn't try to extract two armies from Smolensk--it's because I thought I could use Breakout! to try to keep an army in being in your side indefinitely. And it didn't work out.
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Apr 1, 2017 02:54
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I'd also like to thank Davin and Saros for the LP as well as all the participants because this has been a blast to watch. I will vote for the transit nazis for best nazi and Von Boss for worst nazi because he just...I dunno...he just...didn't get it, ya'know? Like he was all, "Treat POW's better!" and stuff and it's like, "Um, no thank you, we're nazis, we do as we please," ya know? As for which AG is best I abstain from voting because while they all got results and I applaud their strategic acumen, they engaged in rather more infighting than I would have liked. They could have learned a lot from the Transit Nazis, who always put the Reich first and never resorted to petty squabbles over dumb personal nonsense.
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Apr 1, 2017 03:07
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Some outside perspective from your resident Sovok: If you wanted to hold a position, did you put your men into a "retreat at 100% casulties" setup? This is one of the few ways for the Soviet player to make combat outcomes unpredictable for the axis. I tend to run my dudes in a "run at 25% so really early" in the early game, and often switch to a 100% no retreat postures at turn 6 when the axis fixed boosters disappear. Frequently, the axis player is then like "wtf why am I not pushing them around like I used too?" If he then adjusts, he will be using a lot more counters for each individual attack, and thus get a lot less done overall. Even if you dont actually know if you want your guys to run or to hold (and often you will not do that as the Soviets), it makes sense to just randomly mess around with these values just to increase unpredictability for the Germans. The Germans can see your posture, but they cannot see your retreat order rating. You want to make them either overcommit or undercommit. There is a not so known mechanic that, if you combine different units from different armies for a counter attack, that the circumference bonus gets reduced. This is a bit of a pain, especially since the Soviet player will rarely have the advantadge of a well planned front line. I think that messed up some counter attacks of yours. Also, you have frequently overstacked heavily. Do not overstack (meaning to have considerably more then 300 frontline in one hex at the end of your turn) unless you know for certain that there wont be a counter attack by the Germans. Unless you are doing really well, this risk will always be there. Other things but which you probably know: 1: Reserve armies will assemble quickest in a major city, decently fast in a normal city, kind of slow on a major railway and really slow without infrastrucute 2: If you manage to save some of your early tanks which are of offensive posture, you can ideally form them into an armored reserve to punish overeager Panzers with. 3: Releasing all the officers is the value pick. It is typically an extra army that you can get out early, and often is more. It is I think the best pick to take. It also massively pays for itself with PP bounties the germans wont get because you can actually run away early on and they dont get to capture all your army HQs. 4: Imho, Stalin line on mid is best. Center area gets a lot of reinforcements, and with the line you will typcially be able to send these reinforcements elsewhere and thus gain flexibility. Putting the line north or south will rarely allow you to be certain of holding it, and you also wont be certain to hold center. I would volunteer to play the Soviets if you want a new LP, lets see if I can actually play this multiplayer.
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Apr 2, 2017 00:19
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Mightypeon posted:Some outside perspective from your resident Sovok: I only starting doing this in the center around turn, what, 14? 15? I'll definitely have to start doing it earlier--turn 6 sounds like a good idea! quote:There is a not so known mechanic that, if you combine different units from different armies for a counter attack, that the circumference bonus gets reduced. This is a bit of a pain, especially since the Soviet player will rarely have the advantadge of a well planned front line. I think that messed up some counter attacks of yours. Say WHAAAA?!  quote:Also, you have frequently overstacked heavily. Do not overstack (meaning to have considerably more then 300 frontline in one hex at the end of your turn) unless you know for certain that there wont be a counter attack by the Germans. Unless you are doing really well, this risk will always be there. Yeah, I was trying to make "hardpoints" in cities and swamps that could be mustered as reserves on attack. I wanted to spread them out, but by the time they got organized you all were knocking on the doors!
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Apr 2, 2017 00:29
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Mightypeon makes some good points but they are I think secondary to the major flaw in Davins play (sorry Davin). Basically that on the strategic level the Soviet defense was not flexible enough and on the tactical level I don't think you were familiar with just how much Soviet power it takes to hold any particular hex against a determined German attack. I think for AGC and AGS there were a few key points around turns 8-15 where huge amounts of SOviets got surrounded and from that you really struggled to muster the required density of units to really stop the German advance in its tracks.  Army group North. So this was a loving shitshow for both sides from beginning to end but largely for the Soviets. What was needed more than anything else was an army or two sent from Central front to stiffen the defensive along the Stalin line but unfortunatey none was forthcoming. The real disaster here was turns 9-14 as you can see in the image follwowing.  The Soviet armies stubbornly held their hardpoints and ended out with massive amounts of men surrounded against the coast and then Leningrad surrounded instead of falling back ahead of the Germans and trying to hold the lines to Leningrad open in the forests. Forest fighting really sucks as the Germans. Army Group Center: I think the key turns here were 7-13 as shown. Basically there is no great position to hold in the center once the Germans get over the riverlines or onto the landbridge in force but the Soviet troops stubbornly held position even when fat stacks of German infantry were pushed up against them.  What should have been happening here is when German infantry were in base contact with Soviets you fall back a hex so that they have to spend 40+ AP moving into position to attack you, 3 armies surrounded around Smolensk and then another at Vyazma is almost impossible to recover from and it was largely due to underestimating German mobility and hole-punching capabilities. Army Group South: I think the key moment here was turns 10-13. Basically early encirclements allowed me to push forward and the Soviet conscript armies were all sitting in cities because there was no good terrain to defend. What should have happened is they retreated 1-2 hexes at a time then lined up along the east banks of the Dnepr river and denied me any ability to cross.  Forcing a bridgehead across the Dnepr is the single hardest task of AGS and I basically strolled across in three places. After that the mostly conscripts + open terrain means its incredibly difficult to stop massed German attacks. Basically the secret to winning as Soviets is 1) never letting the Germans have a lot of infantry to throw at any hex without 3+ divisions and 2) not being afraid to give up territory. The singe best way to bleed Germans is to force them to move a hex to contact then attack meaning they have only ~60 AP to attack with. Early combat favors the defender especially when it is the Soviets as they are much more likely to rout/run away and get seriously beaten up doing so in later rounds. Saros fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Apr 2, 2017 |
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Apr 2, 2017 03:40
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Curious as to how you'd rate the performance on the German side. Also, if Davin sees this, I am curious what the deal was with that second army just sitting around in the Crimea after the first army dug in at the bottleneck. It could have caused problems for us if it had been available on the primary front.
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Apr 3, 2017 20:30
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I think another big thing for the Soviets is too be capable of punishing overeager Panzers. Which you can only do if you withdraw.
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Apr 4, 2017 12:19
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I love that one of the Soviet options for dealing with failed commanders is to hand the offender a loaded pistol. Something about that is even scarier than the ol' 
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Apr 4, 2017 21:52
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| # ? Apr 23, 2024 07:40 |
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Not really. Getting directly commisared (as a general) had pretty high odds of also loving your next of kin. Getting a loaded pistol had less odds of loving your next of kin (and odds are that the loving will be less severe then if you were executed by shooting squad). Imperial Japanese iirc had similiar things, although more with self stabbing rather then with self shooting. Quite a number of German generals got loaded pistols as well, but this was for perception of treason (post 20.07.1944) rather then for incompetence. May sound harsh, but well, you see, if Chruschev hands you a loaded pistol, it means he does not think you are a traitor. So your next of kin will not be next of kin to a traitor, just to someone sufficiently incompetent to warrant execution. Anyone who suggests you were a traitor obviously believes that Chruschev could possibly be wrong (an outright reactionary thought process! report yourself for self criticism and reeducation!) , which should means that your family should be mostly ok.
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Apr 5, 2017 02:11
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