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toadee
Aug 16, 2003

North American Turtle Boy Love Association

Kai was taken posted:

How about you just sit down and make something? It sounds like you've already got all the reading you need taken care of.

Agreed, when it comes down to it just playing around with your synths is going to be what moves you beyond book learned basics and into your own personal style. Take some time to just sit down and play with some sounds. Don't even bother writing any music just spend an hour or two making patches and saving them. You'll learn a lot more about what you personally like which is really what its all about.

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Altoidss
Jun 7, 2007
Curiously Strong
Believe, me, I've been trying. I've got like 5 songs that I've been trying to tweak for weeks, and they all sound like crap. Maybe I'm just burned out for now, I don't know.

I really want to see an Ableton file of a professional dance song, just to see how they did everything. Don't know where I'd find one, though...

IanTheM
May 22, 2007
He came from across the Atlantic. . .

Altoidss posted:

Believe, me, I've been trying. I've got like 5 songs that I've been trying to tweak for weeks, and they all sound like crap. Maybe I'm just burned out for now, I don't know.

Then make more songs, make more crap, find what works for you and start getting better.

unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

Altoidss posted:

Believe, me, I've been trying. I've got like 5 songs that I've been trying to tweak for weeks, and they all sound like crap. Maybe I'm just burned out for now, I don't know.

do some covers of songs you like

wayfinder
Jul 7, 2003
Take part in a competition

Cyne
May 30, 2007
Beauty is a rare thing.

Kai was taken posted:

There's an Operator tutorial on how to make percussion sounds.

Yep, Operator and FM synthesis in general are great for drum sounds. Nowadays I synthesize pretty much all my own drums and use Operator pretty heavily for that task. FM synths have a reputation for being unwieldy but Operator is very accessible and you can work with it in a very analog way if you're not quite ready for the FM aspect.

Pussy v. Sperguson
Apr 28, 2003

This might be obvious but a big thing that influences my output is what sort of music I'm listening to when I'm not working on my own. If you're in a rut try getting some inspiration from different genres.

Quincy Smallvoice
Mar 18, 2006

Bitches leave

chemicalhero posted:

This might be obvious but a big thing that influences my output is what sort of music I'm listening to when I'm not working on my own. If you're in a rut try getting some inspiration from different genres.

This is very good advice, and you should listen to it. For me atleast, who only ever wanted to make banging progressive house tracks; I just couldnt do it.

I'd get a track together, and either get stuck in the 16 bar loop stage, with one or more sections, or in the, after several hours of work and arranged, come to the "meh this kinda sucks"-stage.

So I started branching out, and just experimented. One day I started on a beat, and on a whim I turned the tempo down to like 90 BPM, and BAM, instant creativity burst. When I started going for more downtempo poo poo, I found it SO much easier to build on my tracks, and make them decently arranged pieces with actual musical merit.

Its hard to explain, but my brain shifted gears, I was no longer locked down by the often rigid "rules" of electronic dance music. Once I went out of what I was trying to force out of me, when I didnt actually have the technical skill to complete such a track, I saw where my tracks wanted to go so much more clearly, and at the same time, as I was doing this, and actually getting to practice on all aspects of production from 4 bar loop stage to fully mastered arranged track, my skills improved with each track.

And now, finally, im at a stage where I can actually produce what I always wanted to do. All thanks to me stepping outside of my own box.


Hope that makes sense.

oredun
Apr 12, 2007

Altoidss posted:

I'm kind of stuck in a rut. I need more material to read. I've been shopping around on Amazon for a bit, and I've added far too many books to my cart than I have time to read.

Are there any books you guys suggest I get besides the Dance Music Manual? Right now, I've got that one, a book on Ableton 7, one on mixing, one on sampling, and one on remixing. I'm debating over whether to get one on synthesis, or just read Synth Secrets again.

maybe get a teacher? or something? is this post even real?

Terrible Horse
Apr 27, 2004
:I
That is good advice, and I'd extend it to listening to stuff that isnt EDM at all, or even not listening to any music for a few hours before sitting down to write something. So much of electronic music is based on repeating patterns and rhythms, its easy to get something subconsciously stuck in your head, and you end up with something that sounds derivative, or even an outright rip off of something you just heard.

Blinn
Mar 24, 2005

Something I do to try get my creativity flowing is to just give myself a time limit of like an hour and see what kind of cool poo poo I can make without exceeding that.

Here's something that I made this morning in about an hour, it started off just playing with some 8 bit sounding patches but I changed them later on once I had a sweet little melody.

PRADA SLUT
Mar 14, 2006

Inexperienced,
heartless,
but even so

unixbeard posted:

do some covers of songs you like

Ding.


Get a MIDI file of a track you like, and just try to re-create it. Musically, you'll know exactly what you're aiming for, and it'll help your technical skills when you've got something to reference.

Altoidss
Jun 7, 2007
Curiously Strong

oredun posted:

maybe get a teacher? or something? is this post even real?

Seriously? Dude, I've been working constantly every second of free time I have. See the songs I posted in my thread? I've got about ten times more, and I'm not posting them because they all sound terrible.

The problem is not writer's block. I'm overflowing with ideas. It's that I can't get my ideas to sound good. The only sound I know how to make is all over the one halfway decent song I've posted so far, Death Toll, and that's just distorted, overcompressed poo poo that anyone can do. But when I try to venture out from that, it sounds like poo poo.

So why are you criticizing me for trying to expand my knowledge? It's not like I want a shortcut. Point me to anything and I'll read it any try to apply it, but don't act like I'm not putting in the effort.

EDIT: I like the idea of covering a song, I'll give that a try...

EDIT 2: Even taking your post at face value, I'd LOVE a teacher. I'd kill for the chance to sit down with a professional just for a couple of hours to see how they work. But where am I gonna get a chance to do that?

I want to know more things like this. I never would have figured it out on my own, but all of a sudden my drums sound way better. The problem is most of the materials I've come across are either for complete beginners or for seasoned professionals or math geeks. No in between, really.

Altoidss fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Oct 11, 2008

Quincy Smallvoice
Mar 18, 2006

Bitches leave

oredun posted:

maybe get a teacher? or something? is this post even real?

you're pretty loving dumb I hope you know that.

cubicle gangster
Jun 26, 2005

magda, make the tea

Altoidss posted:

The problem is not writer's block. I'm overflowing with ideas. It's that I can't get my ideas to sound good.

Maybe you're overflowing with too many.

If it sounds poo poo, just layer up detail and dont be afraid to strip poo poo out later on.
You're probably being a bit too heavyhanded with it as it is - I had this when I started and still get it in patches where you get impatiant and dont give anything the due care and attention it needs to become good.
If you saw one of my ableton files chances are there would be nothing out of the ordinary there (before mastering, at least)
Just pay more attention to tracks - yours and professional, try and break down EVERY track you listen to in your head and think how it could be done, and slow down. It's all in the detail, theres no magic button to press or major thing you're missing.

edit:
Did a bit more work on a track from last week - not sure how many saw the thread, but i've mastered it a little better now (although it still needs some work) and I want to put it somewhere :3:. Cant be arsed bumping the thread though, because i'm moving onto a proper hard techno remix of it.

http://www.tindeck.com/audio/file/jezt-NSG-how%20many%20times%20do%20I%20have%20to%20telll%20you-finalupdate.mp3
Minimal laid back kinda affair. Ableton 7.

cubicle gangster fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Oct 11, 2008

The Fog
Oct 10, 2004

-I spent the whole day trying to pull a peanut from that heater vent. Turns out it was just a moth. -How was it? -Dry.
Try making the track and finishing it with MIDI-sounds.
If the song works with poor production, it'll sound great with good production.

If you want a more in-depth book on audio, there's always Mastering Audio, by Bob Katz ;)

tylertfb
Mar 3, 2004

Time.Space.Transmat.


a detroity techno track I'm working on. This is a little 16 bar loop to test levels and sounds. I probably won't be adding much in terms of elements, but rather making a progression of these sounds and adding a fill here or there and a breakdown. I'm looking for feedback mostly on the mastering / mixing / sound choices here.

an actual cat irl
Aug 29, 2004

tylertfb posted:



a detroity techno track I'm working on. This is a little 16 bar loop to test levels and sounds. I probably won't be adding much in terms of elements, but rather making a progression of these sounds and adding a fill here or there and a breakdown. I'm looking for feedback mostly on the mastering / mixing / sound choices here.

Sounds good to me.....quite tech housey, actually. I like the synth sounds, but the kick sounds lost IMO, although I'm a fan of big banging kick drums, which might not really be what you were aiming for.

Finish it off and post it here! :D

Cyne
May 30, 2007
Beauty is a rare thing.

tylertfb posted:



a detroity techno track I'm working on. This is a little 16 bar loop to test levels and sounds. I probably won't be adding much in terms of elements, but rather making a progression of these sounds and adding a fill here or there and a breakdown. I'm looking for feedback mostly on the mastering / mixing / sound choices here.

This is fantastic. I don't think I really have much in the way of criticism here, it all comes together very nicely, and I think the kick sounds fine for the more mellow kind of feel you seem to be going for.

wayfinder
Jul 7, 2003

tylertfb posted:



a detroity techno track I'm working on. This is a little 16 bar loop to test levels and sounds. I probably won't be adding much in terms of elements, but rather making a progression of these sounds and adding a fill here or there and a breakdown. I'm looking for feedback mostly on the mastering / mixing / sound choices here.

Kick: needs more work. It's dull, mid-heavy "plock" sound that needs some careful EQing to not make it sound like it comes from the inside of a washing machine. some clashes with the bass (try cutting both around 300Hz). The little fills are distracting (too long!), I'd use short dribbles instead.

Clap: works well, could use a little volume boost.

Hats: good groove, shakers are a bit too prominent.

Bass: wobbly seems to work.

Chords: the filter on/off part in the last seconds doesn't work, try playing with the decay to vary the pluckiness instead and use slow automation for the filter.

Pad: I like it. Try automating the volume to gently duck it around the kick, see if that sounds good. If it does, try it on the chords as well.

Ideas for additions: a pad-like, flanged, hi-passed white noise (or if you wanna give it some texture, soft rides), subtle blips and beeps at rhythmically interesting points to accentuate overtones

Looking forward to the finished work!

cubicle gangster
Jun 26, 2005

magda, make the tea

The Fog posted:

Try making the track and finishing it with MIDI-sounds.
If the song works with poor production, it'll sound great with good production.

I'm not so sure that would work with techno. The focus there is less on the melodies and more on the actual noises themselves.
Good sounds are as important as a good beat in my eyes.

The Fog
Oct 10, 2004

-I spent the whole day trying to pull a peanut from that heater vent. Turns out it was just a moth. -How was it? -Dry.

cubicle gangster posted:

I'm not so sure that would work with techno. The focus there is less on the melodies and more on the actual noises themselves.
Good sounds are as important as a good beat in my eyes.

You do have a point! In genres where the focus is on sound design you should definitely be concentrating on that. The good thing about that is that melodies and sound design seem mutually exclusive to an extent. The genres with the most complex and interesting soundscapes are usually very sparse on melodies and vice versa.
For club music where there's a lot of focus on melodies, you usually only hear the same formulaic sounds in every track, but the melodies, chord progressions and vocals are what makes the tracks.

Cheers for pointing that out cubicle gangster!

tylertfb
Mar 3, 2004

Time.Space.Transmat.
Ok I arranged it a little bit and feeling kind of silly, added a very rudimentary key part in the middle. I fully abused the 'turn the bpm down way low while recording' trick. I don't know if I want to keep this in the final track or just slice parts of it and make it a little more cut-up / disjointed sounding. It's probably too conventionally melodic / epic sounding for my taste and what I'm aiming for right now.

on my todo list right now:
a) fix the kick/bass eq like wayfinder said. I have kind of a placeholder kick in there right now so I'll probably spend some time making a nice layered one.

b) add some more variation in the drum programming, mix the drums differently. On my headphones it sounds o.k. but again, I think wayfinder is right. When I mix in these cans hi-hats / shakers come out way to hot sounding (I also really really like shakers in songs a whole lot so that is a big part of it). I'll probably lower the volume of the shaker, put in a few 'jazzy' sections where the closed hat plays around a little bit, add a subtle ride cymbal

c) either lose completely or change the hand drum percussion sounds. I think just finding better samples would do it. I think they're too 'clean' sounding right now. I'll probably try to sample something off a record and find some drums with a much softer attack. Maybe I'll just replace the whole thing (which I programmed on the drum machine) with a sampled loop. I want it to sound kind of like old Samuel L Session style drums but I think the key to that is using full loops.

d) make it longer, add more fx and volume automation on the transitions between sections. right now it's just pattern changes and track mutes.



anyway, thanks for listening and the nice feedback

oredun
Apr 12, 2007

Altoidss posted:

Seriously? Dude, I've been working constantly every second of free time I have. See the songs I posted in my thread? I've got about ten times more, and I'm not posting them because they all sound terrible.

The problem is not writer's block. I'm overflowing with ideas. It's that I can't get my ideas to sound good. The only sound I know how to make is all over the one halfway decent song I've posted so far, Death Toll, and that's just distorted, overcompressed poo poo that anyone can do. But when I try to venture out from that, it sounds like poo poo.

So why are you criticizing me for trying to expand my knowledge? It's not like I want a shortcut. Point me to anything and I'll read it any try to apply it, but don't act like I'm not putting in the effort.

EDIT: I like the idea of covering a song, I'll give that a try...

EDIT 2: Even taking your post at face value, I'd LOVE a teacher. I'd kill for the chance to sit down with a professional just for a couple of hours to see how they work. But where am I gonna get a chance to do that?

I want to know more things like this. I never would have figured it out on my own, but all of a sudden my drums sound way better. The problem is most of the materials I've come across are either for complete beginners or for seasoned professionals or math geeks. No in between, really.


can you play an instrument? for me taking lessons for my instrument(and im in college for music, jazz specifically, which again i couldnt learn properly from a book) really opened my eyes to so many techniques that i just couldnt have understood from a book. so thats why i recommend a teacher because they can actually teach you stuff and you dont just read dry rear end literature about what you are doing.


and i never post my songs because i am really just not satisfied with my work yet, everyone who hears them says theyre so pro sounding(everyones e-music is pro sounding these days), why dont i play them out, blah blah. so im right there with you. your earlier post just made me laugh out loud and it almost didnt seem real, so sorry if you were offended.

oredun fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Oct 11, 2008

Stux
Nov 17, 2006

oredun posted:

can you play an instrument? for me taking lessons for my instrument(and im in college for music, jazz specifically, which again i couldnt learn properly from a book) really opened my eyes to so many techniques that i just couldnt have understood from a book. so thats why i recommend a teacher because they can actually teach you stuff and you dont just read dry rear end literature about what you are doing.


and i never post my songs because i am really just not satisfied with my work yet, everyone who hears them says theyre so pro sounding(everyones e-music is pro sounding these days), why dont i play them out, blah blah. so im right there with you. your earlier post just made me laugh out loud and it almost didnt seem real, so sorry if you were offended.

I dont think there are really many teachers that teach electronic music making? Other than taking a course at a college on music tech or whatever.

Altoidss
Jun 7, 2007
Curiously Strong

oredun posted:

can you play an instrument? for me taking lessons for my instrument(and im in college for music, jazz specifically, which again i couldnt learn properly from a book) really opened my eyes to so many techniques that i just couldnt have understood from a book. so thats why i recommend a teacher because they can actually teach you stuff and you dont just read dry rear end literature about what you are doing.

I play guitar, piano and trombone, I got that covered, don't worry.

quote:

I dont think there are really many teachers that teach electronic music making? Other than taking a course at a college on music tech or whatever.

Well I'm a senior in high school now, but with luck I'll be at NYU next year, and they've got plenty of music tech classes, so knock on wood...


Anyway, I hate Ableton's stock distortion. Is there a good free distortion plug in?

El Scandelouse
Jan 10, 2003

Love, Drunkchat.

Stux posted:

I dont think there are really many teachers that teach electronic music making? Other than taking a course at a college on music tech or whatever.

i dont really see how making electronic music is much different than regular music?

Stux
Nov 17, 2006

El Scandelouse posted:

i dont really see how making electronic music is much different than regular music?

Learning an instrument is a lot different to learning how to use a DAW, VSTs, as well as learning the different styles of music etc.

Laserjet 4P
Mar 28, 2005

What does it mean?
Fun Shoe

Altoidss posted:

Anyway, I hate Ableton's stock distortion. Is there a good free distortion plug in?

I bought D16 Devastor for that (which isn't free but cheap), but alternatively, http://www.simulanalog.org/ has a few stompboxes.

El Scandelouse posted:

i dont really see how making electronic music is much different than regular music?
All generally, all IMHO:

- electronic music (nowadays) forces you to be jack of all trades
- traditional band structure doesn't work that well (there's only so much room behind a computer monitor or sequencer)
- the way the hardware and software works means you don't need formal education and lots of actual music creation can be done "offline" - clicking in notes with your mouse, programming stepsequencers before the actual steps are active.
- composition and actual production are generally done at the same time (instead of separately jamming a bit on a guitar, writing it down, then moving to the studio).
- rehearsal is nonexistent unless you're performing live, and even then you leave much larger margins for error/filler.

Laserjet 4P fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Oct 11, 2008

PRADA SLUT
Mar 14, 2006

Inexperienced,
heartless,
but even so

El Scandelouse posted:

i dont really see how making electronic music is much different than regular music?

Well, musically speaking, they're pretty much the same. Electronic music doesn't use some magical set of notes that are different from every other genre.

The thing that differs is the production, the actual creation of the sounds, and the devices and gear used. Even "standard" gear might be used differently in electronic music than in other genres, for effects. For instance, a trance lead might have a delay at an off-time on purpose, while other genres tend to keep their delays on-time, because it follows the beat of the music better.

breaks
May 12, 2001

Yoozer posted:

I bought D16 Devastor for that (which isn't free but cheap), but alternatively, http://www.simulanalog.org/ has a few stompboxes.

Ohmicide is another good one, from OhmForce of course, and they are having a group buy soon I believe so you might be able to pick that up cheap... Or Kombinat from Audio Damage which I haven't used personally, but it's also inexpensive and has a good reputation.

I can't think of any totally free ones that I really took a liking to.

I Dig Gardening
Jan 13, 2004

I cant tonight, babe. Im going online.
Camelphat is my favorite distortion plugin. It's simple and amazingly versatile. It will phatten the hell out of any sound you throw at it, it's dangerous.

El Scandelouse
Jan 10, 2003

Love, Drunkchat.

Kai was taken posted:

Well, musically speaking, they're pretty much the same. Electronic music doesn't use some magical set of notes that are different from every other genre.

The thing that differs is the production, the actual creation of the sounds, and the devices and gear used. Even "standard" gear might be used differently in electronic music than in other genres, for effects. For instance, a trance lead might have a delay at an off-time on purpose, while other genres tend to keep their delays on-time, because it follows the beat of the music better.

gear might be used differently in rock and roll, but its still basically the same. you make a sound, make some parts, put parts together in a song, record(or arrange) on computer. bam. music(hopefully).

Altoidss
Jun 7, 2007
Curiously Strong

I Dig Gardening posted:

Camelphat is my favorite distortion plugin. It's simple and amazingly versatile. It will phatten the hell out of any sound you throw at it, it's dangerous.

Oooh, I've heard good things about Camel Crusher, but I forgot about it till now. I'll try that one out. Thanks!

cubicle gangster
Jun 26, 2005

magda, make the tea
I spent years playing guitar, went through a couple of bands and wrote plenty of songs.
Absolutley nothing I learnt from that has translated to what i'm making now, aside from my fascination with sound. Structures, layers and usage of noise is all so far from this and if anything it held me back at first - when I had the mentality that I should be good at this becasue I was good at that.

Depends on the music you want to create though - if it's just general electronic, structures and beat patterns will carry over. If it's house, scales and melody are the most important thing, and if it's proper techno you've got synth patches and drum patterns which bear very little relation to most things you'd make with a band. If you've done recording in a studio/used a DAW as a sketchpad for music that would help a lot though.

Thats a very quick generalisation of how I see it, mind. We all have our different ways of working and 'electronic' is far too broad a descriptor to know exactly where you'll end up.

tommej
Apr 18, 2007

by Fistgrrl
This is a friend of mines trance track. It's almost complete he's just looking for a little feedback. This is the breakdown.

PRADA SLUT
Mar 14, 2006

Inexperienced,
heartless,
but even so

El Scandelouse posted:

gear might be used differently in rock and roll, but its still basically the same. you make a sound, make some parts, put parts together in a song, record(or arrange) on computer. bam. music(hopefully).

Yeah, but if you say it like that, you could argue that all music is fundamentally the same. Input > Effects > Output. Channels > Master.




Any word on Live 8? I'm still rolling with 6, and I want to try and just skip 7 and go to 8, since it's this late in the cycle. Although, I don't know if it's worth it, if 8 is going to be out within any reasonable amount of time.

Quincy Smallvoice
Mar 18, 2006

Bitches leave

cubicle gangster posted:

If it's house, scales and melody are the most important thing,

wait what?

PRADA SLUT
Mar 14, 2006

Inexperienced,
heartless,
but even so

tommej posted:

This is a friend of mines trance track. It's almost complete he's just looking for a little feedback. This is the breakdown.



Generic. Not bad, actually pretty solid, but basically a trance song in a sea of trance songs. I guess it depends on what he's going for. I thought Tri-State was a great album, and it doesn't bring anything new to the table.

To me, this sounds like a filler track that you'd hear from a major DJ. Nothing specifically worth noting, but nothing bad about it, either.


The production value on it is really, really good though. Sounds professional and well-mixed.

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Altoidss
Jun 7, 2007
Curiously Strong

Kai was taken posted:

Any word on Live 8? I'm still rolling with 6, and I want to try and just skip 7 and go to 8, since it's this late in the cycle. Although, I don't know if it's worth it, if 8 is going to be out within any reasonable amount of time.

Still on the speculation stage, all we know about it is that no one needs a vocoder.

I doubt it will be released in 2008. This only comes from occasionally browsing the ableton forums and abletonlivedj.com, though, so they could announce it tomorrow.

Altoidss fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Oct 12, 2008

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