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Remicion posted:No, we see it from the other point of view, you're not realizing the full history. He basically left Angel in all but name (after making sure to gently caress over Charisma Carpenter beforehand) to go do Firefly, which was a huge, huge flop in the ratings. While he was gone the show started doing good again and he comes back and starts trying to strong arm the studio making demands they don't do. I'm not sure which one of us has our timing wrong but from what I can tell Firefly started shooting summer of 2002. This was after season 3 of Angel and season 6 of Buffy, but I'm not sure how long it originally took to write and shoot the pilot so there was most likely some overlap there. While Whedon was working on Firefly, Angel began season 4 and Cordelia had sex with Connor. Additionally, Buffy was just beginning season 7. By the time Angel got to what seems like most consider "good" again, Firefly had been cancelled. Firefly was cancelled about 8 episodes into Angel and 10 into Buffy. I don't know exactly how long it took to get back to both shows since Joss was trying to save Firefly for a while, but Joss would have been working on one or both for the second ends of that television season, where I would argue both improved. Regardless, the point is that by the time Joss asked the WB to cancel or renew Angel, Firefly had been cancelled for about a year, and Joss was definitely back on Angel, even writing and directing the first episode of the season. Micgael posted:I'm only to the Halloween episode but it's been thus far a season of pity-party for Buffy, Xander continuing The Hilarious Sexual Misadventures of Xander Harris and struggling to keep Giles relevant. Oh, and something about a ring to make Angel daylight-friendly, but I just assumed that was necessary for the spin off. It gets worse before it gets better, unfortunately. "Beer Bad" is next, and is probably one of the most hated episodes of the series. There are a few bright spots coming up though, like "Hush" and "Something Blue". At least the Halloween episode is fun. In fact, I would argue that the best episodes of Season 4 are probably the ones that have the least to do with the overall arc.
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Apr 26, 2010 03:37
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No one ever seems to agree with me, but I actually really like Buffy season 4. Taking them out of high school and showing us how characters like Xander and Giles don't know what to do with themselves feels fresh to me. I even think the concept behind the Initiative/college plot is very clever. It's just not as well plotted as season 3.
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Apr 26, 2010 03:38
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Superrodan posted:It gets worse before it gets better, unfortunately. "Beer Bad" is next, and is probably one of the most hated episodes of the series.
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Apr 26, 2010 03:49
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Beer Bad was pretty terrible right up until the very end, at which point all of the stupid paid off into absolute comedy.
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Apr 26, 2010 04:23
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Hush and Restless make going through Season 4's really bad story arc totally worth it. I also enjoyed the Faith two-parter (mainly because it segues into an awesome two-parter for her in Angel).
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Apr 26, 2010 04:24
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There are some cool episodes in Season 4. Also some of the ongoing gags, like Spike's impotence, are good. A lot of character progression happens. Superstar is in this season. The finale makes up for everything bad, though.
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Apr 26, 2010 04:42
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MacBook Air Gamer posted:Hush and Restless make going through Season 4's really bad story arc totally worth it. I also enjoyed the Faith two-parter (mainly because it segues into an awesome two-parter for her in Angel). Faith was so much better in "Angel" than she was in "Buffy." Of course, you could say that with most of the characters that cross over.
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Apr 26, 2010 05:18
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nemesis_hub posted:I even think the concept behind the Initiative/college plot is very clever. Seconding this. It was just a disappointment. I like the Initiative in "Why We Fight" better than on Buffy, even though they show up for all of 3 minutes.
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Apr 26, 2010 06:35
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Micgael posted:I'm only to the Halloween episode but it's been thus far a season of pity-party for Buffy, Xander continuing The Hilarious Sexual Misadventures of Xander Harris and struggling to keep Giles relevant. Oh, and something about a ring to make Angel daylight-friendly, but I just assumed that was necessary for the spin off. The ring was just an excuse for a crossover so Oz and Spike could visit Angel. Plus, it's a preview for how awesome Spike would be on Angel.
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Apr 26, 2010 07:43
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I have forgiven all of season four because of the slow motion overly dramatic slap fight between Xander and Vampire Harmony in The Initiative.
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Apr 26, 2010 08:30
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"I wear the cheese. It does not wear me"
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Apr 26, 2010 16:44
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Buffy S4 has some great stand-alones, it's just the Initiative plot that sucks.
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Apr 26, 2010 19:12
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Czar Like Stick posted:Buffy S4 has some great stand-alones, it's just the Initiative plot that sucks. Yeah, it's like the opposite of season 5. In 4, you get some of the best individual episodes of the entire series (including the best, in "Restless"  ), but the main arc of the year is kinda pointless and the major conflict in said arc (at least, as far as relating to the Initiative is concerned) is Riley's, not Buffy's or anyone else's.Whereas I have to think a bit before I can even name an episode of season 5* (outside of "The Body" and "The Gift," of course), but the main storyline is fantastic. * After wracking my brain for a minute or two, the only one that came to mind was "Buffy vs. Dracula." 
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Apr 26, 2010 22:00
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There's really no blaming Whedon for Alien Resurrection; he was given the job, delivered a script, and had nothing more to do with it. The script that was filmed isn't his; it's his script after the studio had it rewritten repeatedly.
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Apr 27, 2010 00:39
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Pope Guilty posted:There's really no blaming Whedon for Alien Resurrection; he was given the job, delivered a script, and had nothing more to do with it. The script that was filmed isn't his; it's his script after the studio had it rewritten repeatedly. And he has said more than once how horrible it turned out and how embarrassed he was about it.
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Apr 27, 2010 01:21
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Bunnita posted:And he has said more than once how horrible it turned out and how embarrassed he was about it. Joss is pretty open about some of the... shortcomings that his works turn out as. I present these classic comments about the Buffy unaired pilot: quote:IGNFF: Is the presentation ever going to make it to DVD? Also this made me laugh, from the same 2003 interview: quote:IGNFF: Have you seen the latest, wonderful Internet find of the purported leak of Spike's return on Angel next year?
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Apr 27, 2010 01:30
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Pope Guilty posted:There's really no blaming Whedon for Alien Resurrection; he was given the job, delivered a script, and had nothing more to do with it. The script that was filmed isn't his; it's his script after the studio had it rewritten repeatedly. Where did you hear that? Everything I've read Whedon was the one doing the rewrites, so yes it was still his script. quote:Whedon composed a thirty-page treatment surrounding this idea before being informed that the studio, though impressed with his script, now intended to base the story on a clone of Ripley who they saw as the anchor of the series.[4] Whedon had to rewrite the script in a way that would bring back the Ripley character, a task he found difficult. It was still his script, no screenwriter gets 100% what he wanted in the script, they all have to change poo poo with the studio's influence. Bunnita posted:And he has said more than once how horrible it turned out and how embarrassed he was about it. It's not like he had any other choice here.
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Apr 27, 2010 01:32
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nemesis_hub posted:No one ever seems to agree with me, but I actually really like Buffy season 4. Taking them out of high school and showing us how characters like Xander and Giles don't know what to do with themselves feels fresh to me. I even think the concept behind the Initiative/college plot is very clever. It's just not as well plotted as season 3. I agree with you. Season 4 is great. Sure, the overall arc is weaker than other seasons, but I think all other aspects of the show were at their peak. First, the show looks the best it's ever looked. It pops. Second, they were forced to change it all up, with the move from high school and the Angel spin off - thus, lots of new tricks and story techniques. If you really identified with seasons 1-3, I guess I could understand how some of these might not be to your liking. I rolled with it all. This is the comedy season without equal - every character is at their comedic peak, and "Pangs" is the best comedy episode of the entire run of the show. Season 4 doesn't have the emotional weight of 5, 3 or 2; but it wasn't trying either - clearly, the intent of the season is lighthearted, and is in many ways similar to Season 1 in this regard.
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Apr 27, 2010 01:50
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So I just finished "Why we fight" and at the end the copy I have had the preview in it from the original airing for the next episode "Smile time", so I got to see puppet Angel fighting Spike. I swear I almost fell out of my chair laughing. I was told to look forward to this episode, and I am.
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Apr 27, 2010 02:44
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quote:IGNFF: Is the presentation ever going to make it to DVD? Shame he wont take that attitude with Dollhouse.
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Apr 27, 2010 20:41
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A Big Dark Yak posted:Yeah, it's like the opposite of season 5. In 4, you get some of the best individual episodes of the entire series (including the best, in "Restless" Rewatching Season 5 right now, I'm amazed by how much more I find Dawn not annoying. I mean, she does annoying right, because her character is supposed to be, but she does the quiet, painful moments just right, especially during the scenes when Joyce is undergoing treatment/surgery/etc. And the scene where she breaks down at her school when Buffy tells her something bad's happened, and especially the later scene in the hospital. "Is she cold?" A couple of things don't jive with suspension of disbelief though, like Glory's minions going around in broad daylight looking like lepers in robes spying on the scoobies, and the sheer ridiculousness of a crusade in robes and horseback. Exactly how the hell are they supposed to track Buffy's RV from hell once it gets off a dirt road and into a highway anyways?
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Apr 27, 2010 21:50
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hope and vaseline posted:A couple of things don't jive with suspension of disbelief though, like Glory's minions going around in broad daylight looking like lepers in robes spying on the scoobies, and the sheer ridiculousness of a crusade in robes and horseback. Exactly how the hell are they supposed to track Buffy's RV from hell once it gets off a dirt road and into a highway anyways? Well, I imagine after the entire graduating class, student faculty, teacher faculty and all parents defended the school from an 80 foot tall snake they've learned to stop paying attention to lepers in robes.
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Apr 27, 2010 22:40
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hope and vaseline posted:Exactly how the hell are they supposed to track Buffy's RV from hell once it gets off a dirt road and into a highway anyways?
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Apr 28, 2010 02:39
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Rapey Joe Stalin posted:Shame he wont take that attitude with Dollhouse. Granted, there was a lot of poo poo, but there was also a lot of really good with Dollhouse. It deserved to be canceled though.
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Apr 28, 2010 02:53
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hope and vaseline posted:A couple of things don't jive with suspension of disbelief though, like Glory's minions going around in broad daylight looking like lepers in robes spying on the scoobies, and the sheer ridiculousness of a crusade in robes and horseback. Exactly how the hell are they supposed to track Buffy's RV from hell once it gets off a dirt road and into a highway anyways? The Glory's minions thing bothered me a bit too, but ultimately they shouldn't have any harder of a time getting around than the other hundred demon species that seem to roam freely around Sunnydale. As for Byzantium I just sort of figured that if there were vampire/demon sects that still used swords and wore armor, etc., why shouldn't there be at least one prominent human sect that did? I chalk the RV thing up to magic. They have clerics capable of breaking forcefields, surely they can do a simple locator spell.
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Apr 28, 2010 10:22
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I chock everything up to it's a supernatural soap opera. If you are going to suspend disbelief enough to accept the show there really isn't much reason to question anything.
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Apr 28, 2010 10:58
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Micgael posted:I chock everything up to it's a supernatural soap opera. If you are going to suspend disbelief enough to accept the show there really isn't much reason to question anything. Sure. But the magic has to be consistent; magic = drugs? What the heck?
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Apr 29, 2010 01:55
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redshirt posted:Sure. But the magic has to be consistent; magic = drugs? What the heck? Yeah for real. Unless maybe it's only the people who went to that one dude, forget the name, but the one Willow went to who's place moves around and stays invisible? I thought about this a while ago and that's the only thing I can think of, but makes sense to me I suppose.
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Apr 29, 2010 06:49
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White-Lightning posted:Yeah for real. Unless maybe it's only the people who went to that one dude, forget the name, but the one Willow went to who's place moves around and stays invisible? I thought about this a while ago and that's the only thing I can think of, but makes sense to me I suppose. Rack. Because he ran a Rack house. 
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Apr 29, 2010 07:16
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So I just now finished season 5 of Angel... and all I can say is WTF? to my self over and over. I mean that was probably the biggest case of tv blue balls to have it end there. I have already started the "After the Fall" comics (which I assume is the right one) to try to get some resolution. And I know I've said this about almost all of Joss's shows, but HOW THE gently caress could someone cancel this show after this season?!?! Who could watch what I just watched, and choose to end it there? I hope that guy is now flipping burgers or waiting tables. I've always held onto the hope that either myself, or someone else will someday become incredibly wealthy and would be able to fund the re-creation / completion of his shows, or at the least allow him FULL creative control over a project with a large budget, and just let him do his thing. I would just love to see what he could do with that kind of freedom.
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Apr 29, 2010 22:35
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White-Lightning posted:So I just now finished season 5 of Angel... and all I can say is WTF? to my self over and over. I mean that was probably the biggest case of tv blue balls to have it end there. I have already started the "After the Fall" comics (which I assume is the right one) to try to get some resolution. And I know I've said this about almost all of Joss's shows, but HOW THE gently caress could someone cancel this show after this season?!?! Who could watch what I just watched, and choose to end it there? I hope that guy is now flipping burgers or waiting tables. I had the impression Joss ended there on purpose. He knew the cancellation was coming down from about the midpoint of season five. Maybe it was his way of sending a big "gently caress you" to the WB Network. I actually liked that ending quite a bit, but I can understand those that did not.
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Apr 29, 2010 22:43
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I don't think it was blue balls, a cliffhanger, a "gently caress you," or anything, ending there was (or reinforced) the point of the episode.
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Apr 29, 2010 23:33
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That ending was the best. The show was drat existential, and I don't think there's any real happy endings to be had. They go out fighting, because that's what they do: Fight. It's deep, man. And awesome.
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Apr 30, 2010 02:37
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redshirt posted:That ending was the best. The show was drat existential, and I don't think there's any real happy endings to be had. They go out fighting, because that's what they do: Fight. It's deep, man. And awesome. That ending keeps me going sometimes. You don't fight injustice because you're gonna win. You fight injustice because it's injustice.
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Apr 30, 2010 02:48
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As I said, I too liked the ending, in fact consider it to be one of the better series-enders ever. But some people just like a more resolved ending. I get that too. Take Buffy for example. You didn't know what would happen next, but at least the whole Hellmouth/Sunnydale thing was resolved. And for those that say we do know what happened next, I just can't personally accept the comics any longer. They started off decently enough, but have just gotten drat silly of late. Naked space sex? Really?
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Apr 30, 2010 05:27
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I just rewatched Not Fade Away and the only thing that still really bothers me is how completely bullshit Lyndsey's death is. This time I watched specifically for things showing that he might deserve it, but other than the implication that he's flaky, there was no reason for Angel and Lorne to break character so badly (killing a human in cold blood). Hell, Harmony constantly betrayed him and all she got was a job reccomendation.
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Apr 30, 2010 09:53
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Scissorfighter posted:I just rewatched Not Fade Away and the only thing that still really bothers me is how completely bullshit Lyndsey's death is. This time I watched specifically for things showing that he might deserve it, but other than the implication that he's flaky, there was no reason for Angel and Lorne to break character so badly (killing a human in cold blood). Hell, Harmony constantly betrayed him and all she got was a job reccomendation. Did you rewatch the entire series, or at least the last season? General show spoilers: Lindsey is there from the beginning, tries to kill Angel a ton of times, and even during the last season returns, starts getting it on with Eve and tries to turn Spike on him. Then when they find him he tries to unleash some kind of monster on Angel. The only reason they allowed him to help out in the last episode is because they knew he wanted the Senior Partners gone as much as they did. He still wasn't a good guy, by any means.
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Apr 30, 2010 11:31
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Plus, Angel still likely blames him for the whole "bringing Darla back" thing, with everything that that included. My dad had gotten into Angel towards the end of the series, and hadn't seen anything to do with him. But as soon as Lorne shot him dead, he turns to me and says, "There was a woman involved in that, wasn't there?" I think that's a major part of it . . . Angel never forgave him for that, and when it came to "Not Fade Away," it was time to do a Godfather-esque settling of all debts.
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Apr 30, 2010 14:28
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I agree. Lindsey's story arc was going to have to have some sort of resolution like that, it made sense to me.
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Apr 30, 2010 17:25
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Scissorfighter posted:I just rewatched Not Fade Away and the only thing that still really bothers me is how completely bullshit Lyndsey's death is. This time I watched specifically for things showing that he might deserve it, but other than the implication that he's flaky, there was no reason for Angel and Lorne to break character so badly (killing a human in cold blood). Hell, Harmony constantly betrayed him and all she got was a job reccomendation. Also Harmony did not have a soul so he could not blame her while Lyndsey did and he knew that he could not change. He had the opportunity in the first season, but when offered more money/power he decided that that was more important then the right thing.
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Apr 30, 2010 17:44
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