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Reading this thread, and the previous ones who have been posted, really makes me wonder why the gently caress Americans aren't rioting all over the place. I get it that some people are racists. I get it that some people think "they deserve it". The fact that the US isn't up in arms about this is to me more suprising then the obvious abuse of auhority.
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# ? Jul 28, 2010 08:43 |
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# ? Mar 29, 2024 15:22 |
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taremva posted:Reading this thread, and the previous ones who have been posted, really makes me wonder why the gently caress Americans aren't rioting all over the place. The entire field of psychology was founded to deal with these phenomena and it's a hellish bouquet of bystander effect, just-world fallacy and the Milgram experiment. Gonna go ahead and throw the rest of the america*.png series in here. There are exactly two countries who are not signatories to the Convention on the Rights of the Child: United States of America and Somalia.
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# ? Jul 28, 2010 12:19 |
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taremva posted:Reading this thread, and the previous ones who have been posted, really makes me wonder why the gently caress Americans aren't rioting all over the place. There are a lot of plain stupid people in the world. People, when measured by any metric of intelligence, will always return horrible results. Some of these people live in United States.
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# ? Jul 28, 2010 12:48 |
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DarkCrawler posted:There are a lot of plain stupid people in the world. People, when measured by any metric of intelligence, will always return horrible results. Some of these people live in United States. Stupidity and ignorance can be a reason, not an explanation.
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# ? Jul 28, 2010 12:58 |
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taremva posted:Reading this thread, and the previous ones who have been posted, really makes me wonder why the gently caress Americans aren't rioting all over the place. I think fatalism should be added to the list. Why riot when the only result would be more people in jail?
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# ? Jul 28, 2010 13:20 |
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Ugh i never even considered this(i live in the UK) until i saw this thread. I read everything, it took me loving ages, and i am loving apalled, especially by that 50 min documentary on youtube. In the UK atm the exact opposite is being argued by the right winters, that prison is too easy. I personally believe it's okay to give them some privledges such as games consoles, internet and computers(And the inmates apparantely treat their stuff better than most school children), but longer sentences should be incorporated for the worst offenders for long and intensive rehabilitation therapies with professionals, but i am scared if people start treating criminals as sub-human(they hosed up, and they got thrown in the slammer for it, and thus for a few years they have been told not to take part in society) like in america, this will happen here . I believe criminals should get their come-uppence, and do the time and get help to break the cycle but torturing them and battering them around all dam day just makes them hate the establishment more and they just sink further into crime. JustAnother Fat Guy fucked around with this message at 13:33 on Jul 28, 2010 |
# ? Jul 28, 2010 13:29 |
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JustAnother Fat Guy posted:Ugh i never even considered this(i live in the UK) until i saw this thread. I read everything, it took me loving ages, and i am loving apalled, especially by that 50 min documentary on youtube. That being said, the only Tory I have every really liked, Ken Clare (who is more left wing than most of Labour these days) has said some really wise things about how prison "doesn't work", among other things: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10466267
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# ? Jul 28, 2010 14:03 |
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DarkCrawler posted:There are a lot of plain stupid people in the world. People, when measured by any metric of intelligence, will always return horrible results. Some of these people live in United States. You know in the matrix how zion exists so people that escape the matrix get a fake life as a safety valve. In US politics calling people stupid sheep is that. Most people that notice something is wrong never go farther into looking at reasons than "heh, inferior sheeple"
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# ? Jul 28, 2010 14:22 |
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I dont belive (or dont want to belive, I guess) that there are hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of people who see thier friends and relatives subjected to the horros which I have read here, and who don't do everything in thier power to stop it. A relative of mine got busted for a rather serious crime, but I won't go into detail as this is the internet. However, we stayed in touch with him during the years which he was in prison, and were althogether quite worried. And Swedish prisons have been compared to hotels. If anyone I knew was about to be subjected to the american prison system, I don't know what I'd do. Except Panic. I'm pretty sure there would be panicing.
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# ? Jul 28, 2010 14:33 |
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JustAnother Fat Guy posted:Ugh i never even considered this(i live in the UK) until i saw this thread. I read everything, it took me loving ages, and i am loving apalled, especially by that 50 min documentary on youtube. It's horribly selfish I know but I breathed a little sigh of relief when I found out the American prison system evolved partly as a continuation of slavery by other means, and isn't just the inevitable end result of the "prison works" bullshit we've been swallowing.
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# ? Jul 28, 2010 14:42 |
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Broken Knees Club posted:The entire field of psychology was founded to deal with these phenomena and it's a hellish bouquet of bystander effect, just-world fallacy and the Milgram experiment. How the gently caress can people look at this and read that and not just want to start screaming. We are literally on the same level as the near lawless crime capital of east Africa, and that's cool because we gotta keep them lil black bastards in their place.
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# ? Jul 28, 2010 16:53 |
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Americans aren't out in the streets rioting because they've by and large been sold the idea that America is a just place where you succeed and fail on your own merits. Or at least people mouth that, anyway. I'm not sure how many believe that. Many Americans have come to the informed conclusion that they have no say in American politics so they just disengage, which is understandable but doesn't really help the problem.
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# ? Jul 28, 2010 16:53 |
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I don't mean any offence, but for a country which shouts "FREEDOM" I'm really starting to wonder. Just being curious, what is the general opinion of the level of freedom in other countries, for the average American? Does a large part of the population believe that other countries are more oppressed? (Thinking about western/northern Europe mainly, not trying to compare with north Koreaor something). And what do the Americans here think?
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# ? Jul 28, 2010 17:36 |
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taremva posted:I don't mean any offence, but for a country which shouts "FREEDOM" I'm really starting to wonder. The Tea Party apparently believes that Europe is a socialist dystopia. I can't imagine the mindset necessary to think of UHC as a terrifying specter of communism, while fretting about being unable to afford basic health care because of preexisting conditions and/or hundreds of dollars a month insurance fees. vv
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# ? Jul 28, 2010 17:43 |
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taremva posted:I don't mean any offence, but for a country which shouts "FREEDOM" I'm really starting to wonder. Well, it's hard to get a good view of anything that the average American thinks, because America is a really big country with a lot of people. As for the people that are happy about prison rape? A lot of them think that Europe is socialist, and so you have less freedom. Most don't assume that Sweden is equal to the USSR, but a few do.
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# ? Jul 28, 2010 17:56 |
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taremva posted:I don't mean any offence, but for a country which shouts "FREEDOM" I'm really starting to wonder. A disturbing amount of Americans seem to believe that the US is the only truly free country on earth. When told that the US ranks lower than many countries on certain indexes of freedom and human development they'll start sputtering about SOCSALIST LIES. Of course that's not every American or even a majority but these people are very loud and they have a major influence on American discourse.
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# ? Jul 28, 2010 18:02 |
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taremva posted:I don't mean any offence, but for a country which shouts "FREEDOM" I'm really starting to wonder. 20-40% think that Europe is a commie-nazi, death-camp-ridden hellhole. These are the Bush Supporters from 2008, and the current Tea Party. About 40% don't know or care, for various reasons. 10-30% think that it a generally nice place to live, has a lot of things done better than the US, but is not perfect. These are the people in this thread.
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# ? Jul 28, 2010 18:12 |
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taremva posted:I don't mean any offence, but for a country which shouts "FREEDOM" I'm really starting to wonder. We are a country that has prisoners stamp 'live free or die" on license plates unironically.
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# ? Jul 28, 2010 18:17 |
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taremva posted:I don't mean any offence, but for a country which shouts "FREEDOM" I'm really starting to wonder. America has the kind of freedom that the Roman Republic had. If you are a wealthy enfranchised citizen then things are pretty good and you're freer than some place with a dictator, but those benefits don't extend to everyone. Ironically a Roman house slave would probably be much better off than someone in an American prison, and with time they could earn their freedom and right to vote. Rutibex fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Jul 28, 2010 |
# ? Jul 28, 2010 18:44 |
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Sargeant Biffalot posted:It's horribly selfish I know but I breathed a little sigh of relief when I found out the American prison system evolved partly as a continuation of slavery by other means, and isn't just the inevitable end result of the "prison works" bullshit we've been swallowing. When I read HidingFromGoro's first prison thread my immediate thought was "Thank god it's not the UK, it's not my concern" It's probably the worst thought I've ever had, yet it brings me comfort. I am worried about the way UK prison's could go, especially after Cameron publicly declared that prisons are primarily about punishment. Hopefully they'll listen to Ken Clarke and the LibDems who seem to have a much more balanced view.
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# ? Jul 28, 2010 19:47 |
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But the daily mail guys say we should feed prisoners nothing but bread and water and chain gang them naked along the m1
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# ? Jul 28, 2010 20:01 |
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The Fair Sentencing Act passed today, lowering the 100:1 sentence ratio for crack vs powder cocaine to 18:1, and removes mandatory minimum sentences for simple possession of small amounts of crack. So now black folk will only be punished 18 times more harshly than white folk for the same chemical, instead of 100 times more harshly- although there won't be any retroactive sentence reductions.quote:The Fair Sentencing Act of 2010 would raise the minimum quantity of crack cocaine that triggers a 5-year mandatory minimum from 5 grams to 28 grams, and from 50 grams to 280 grams to trigger a 10-year mandatory minimum sentence. The amount of powder cocaine required to trigger the 5 and 10-year mandatory minimums remains the same, at 500 grams and 5 kilograms respectively. The legislation also eliminates the mandatory minimum for simple possession of crack cocaine. The quantity disparity between crack and powder cocaine would move from 100 to 1 to 18 to 1.
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# ? Jul 28, 2010 20:37 |
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taremva posted:Reading this thread, and the previous ones who have been posted, really makes me wonder why the gently caress Americans aren't rioting all over the place. The thing that happens, is that there will always be some inmates you can point to who did something really bad. One dude wasn't even old enough to buy beer when he shotgunned a ladys head apart because he "wanted to see what that bitch's brain looked like." There's people in prison who did things you wouldn't even believe; murder over ten bucks (or no reason at all), cannibalism, killing little babies, taking them apart... all sorts of poo poo. So prison reform becomes a tough sell; because every one you can point to in on a drug charge or whatever, someone on the other side will point to a guy who killed 24 people like this guy and say he's gotta pay, they all gotta pay. And that's also why a lot of people get disillusioned with prison activism after a while, because you're casting your lot with some extremely violent and/or insane people. You see these guys, and you wonder what went wrong, how did they get this far before someone noticed. There were several guys in prison with me who were mentally ill, a couple complete psychotics and more than a few on the autism spectrum- one so far along the spectrum he was barely functional. We always wondered how that guy managed to even join the Navy in the first place, much less stay in long enough to catch a court martial? And this was the peacetime military, so it's not like they were hurting for people.
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# ? Jul 29, 2010 00:14 |
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I remember you mentioning the guy on the spectrum in the ask/tell thread. Seeing as he was a sex offender, I could easily imagine him believing that groping someone was not an impolite way to show affection, or at the very least being to impulsive to think about something so counter-intuitive as the idea that other people have personal space. That or being told by someone, as a prank, to express his affection inappropriately. That really is a sad story.
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# ? Jul 29, 2010 00:38 |
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http://www.lawweekonline.com/2010/07/newly-released-video-shows-tasering-controversially-ordered-by-colo-judge/quote:A convicted second-degree murderer in Cortez was overwhelmed by six helmeted sheriff’s deputies, Tased twice, forcibly restrained, cable-tied then shackled, hooded and placed in a belted chair before being whisked to a February sentencing he didn’t want to attend, a video obtained by Law Week Colorado shows. I'm conflicted. The guy is a convicted killer who beat his ex-girlfriend to death with his fists. I guess they'd have to get him out of the cage, for transfer, whether or not he went to the sentencing.
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# ? Jul 29, 2010 04:57 |
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But a person who shoots someone's head off "just to see what it looks like" doesn't need prison, s/he needs mental care. Locking up people who are already suffering from mental issues will only cause thier situation to get worse. Which will make them harder to deal with for wardens, more likley to return to a life of crime, and with each passing day it gets harder and harder to rehabilitate them. I know a girl who works with criminals. Not strictly a warden, but close enough. She views time in prison as a chance to take a time-out. They get seperated from the usual crowds, are allowed to study and get credits for it, are able to work (for reduced pay, I dont have a number atm I'm afraid. I remember somewhere between $.50 and $2 per hour.). If they handle themselves well, they can get internships outside the prison. This is usually one of the last steps before they are released. This aims to make them break with thier previous life, and give them another source of income. After staying in prison, the idea is that they no longer have any ties to the criminal world. Of course, there are people who commit atrocious crimes, but that is no reason to unfairly punish the other 99.9% of people. In conclusion, I'd say that we seem to have a more corrective rather then punitive prison system. Prison and closed mental care (prison for crazies) are also kept seperate.
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# ? Jul 29, 2010 07:36 |
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The way I see it, the only people who cannot be "rehabilitated" by the prison system are those who suffer from some mental illness or disorder. You might not be able to rehabilitate someone who went out of a friday night, found some guy and shot him in the face for fun. At least, not the same way you rehabilitate someone who went out on a friday night, found some guy and shot him in the face for money/drugs/status. One of them had did it for clear reasons, the other is just mentally ill. Both of them should have a decent chance to be rehabilitated, just differently. Maybe not everyone can be rehabilitated. That's not a reason to not try. Life sentences should be reserved exclusively to the minority of offenders who flatly refuse to do anything, and they should still have the chance to try if they change their mind. Of course, doing so would mean murderers and drug traffickers and rapists could get out of jail. I don't think it'll ever happen. I'm in a small minority who believe we should forgive murderers when they've done their time. Even Karla Homolka.
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# ? Jul 29, 2010 16:39 |
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We have this esoteric thing called psychiatry. It's not perfect, but I hear it can lead to some impressive results if done right! Maybe you guys over in the states could try it out some time?
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# ? Jul 29, 2010 18:14 |
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21stCentury posted:I don't think it'll ever happen. I'm in a small minority who believe we should forgive murderers when they've done their time. Even Karla Homolka. The issue people have with Homolka is that she received a very light sentence because of her plea bargain made before the video evidence was uncovered. Many people feel cheated out of justice. Of course some guilty people have to slip through the cracks for the system to work properly. If exceptions are made every time a result is unpalatable by the public you just end up with mob rule, which is really the opposite of justice.
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# ? Jul 29, 2010 19:19 |
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Rutibex posted:The issue people have with Homolka is that she received a very light sentence because of her plea bargain made before the video evidence was uncovered. Many people feel cheated out of revenge. We take terminology seriously 'round these parts.
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# ? Jul 29, 2010 19:30 |
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Broken Knees Club posted:We have this esoteric thing called psychiatry. It's not perfect, but I hear it can lead to some impressive results if done right! Maybe you guys over in the states could try it out some time? Since our conservatives think the 1950s were a golden age, a revival of serious psychiatric treatment of prisoners in America will just take the form of bringing back mass lobotomies. Spikes in the eye sockets for everyone! I wish I was joking.
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# ? Jul 29, 2010 19:53 |
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The root of a lot of these problems http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMM_T_PJ0Rs&feature=player_embedded
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# ? Jul 29, 2010 21:06 |
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I work in a prison in the UK, interesting to see that compared to the US we seem to have the opposite problem in that overall, we are probably too soft - saying that, I bet there isn't a single country in the world that has got the balance between locking them up 23 hours a day vs rehabilitation programs 'right' Obviously, there are some rumours on just how soft UK prisons are - prisoners dont have internet access for example- and any consoles with wireless capability are outright banned (I think I've seen PS1's in our place - they dont have them in their possession though, the officers keep them and 'loan' them) . Some establishments might give them access to learning resources from the internet (I think) but they certainly don't sit at a computer and go online because there is too many issues of them using it to harrass people (for 1 of many examples). I think UK prisons do a lot of work to rehabilitate prisoners (as apposed to enslave them and just plain old incarcerate them i.e. the US method) The downfall of this is that prisoners probably find it easier to take the mick out of the system and get an 'easy' life inside. However I believe we do good work for the prisoners willing to engage.
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# ? Jul 29, 2010 23:22 |
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angry armadillo posted:I work in a prison in the UK, interesting to see that compared to the US we seem to have the opposite problem in that overall, we are probably too soft - saying that, I bet there isn't a single country in the world that has got the balance between locking them up 23 hours a day vs rehabilitation programs 'right' In one of the LF threads, there was a description of a (maybe Scandinavian?) European prison, where the prisoners had insanely better lives than US inmates. They were even allowed knives, because they needed a way to prepare dinner. Yet, when the inmates were interviewed, they were still more than a little miserable and depressed, simply because they were locked up. Even with cable TV and facebook, they still had no freedom. I think it's a mistake to assume that prison is a punishment because you lose your stuff. Losing your stuff sucks, but that's not what it's about. It's about taking away your agency. It's hard for us to comprehend.
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# ? Jul 29, 2010 23:54 |
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9th Circusquote:-Individual Rights- This is kind of an "oh, duh" thing, but I'm actually surprised the prisoner won.
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# ? Jul 30, 2010 01:07 |
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angry armadillo posted:I work in a prison in the UK, interesting to see that compared to the US we seem to have the opposite problem in that overall, we are probably too soft To soft to do what? behind harder doesn't actually reduce crime and studies show that.
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# ? Jul 30, 2010 04:18 |
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I belive that's "too soft" according to the public standards. The same opinions have been voiced in sweden. And I also remember that prison thread in LF where they had footage from a norwegian prison. And one thing I figure I should mention: There is hardly any cases of rape in swedish prisons. The amount is so close to 0 that it's considered a non-issue, and I've never heard of it, ever.
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# ? Jul 30, 2010 07:26 |
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Smirking_Serpent posted:In one of the LF threads, there was a description of a (maybe Scandinavian?) European prison, where the prisoners had insanely better lives than US inmates. They were even allowed knives, because they needed a way to prepare dinner. In the LF thread there was someone who posted pics and a video from a brand new maximum security prison in Sweden where the inmates had a fully kitted out recording studio and $1M worth of artwork decorating the prisons.
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# ? Jul 30, 2010 10:54 |
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taremva posted:And one thing I figure I should mention: There is hardly any cases of rape in swedish prisons. The amount is so close to 0 that it's considered a non-issue, and I've never heard of it, ever. The US problem is a combination of poorly supervised violent inmates, unsympathetic guards, a strict internal prohibition about telling the guards when it does happen, removal of normal outlets of sexual expression or even recreational activities, and gang related activity.
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# ? Jul 30, 2010 12:04 |
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# ? Mar 29, 2024 15:22 |
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Incoming I had a bit of a revelation this morning. One of those things not unlike, say the scenic view in Montana; glaringly obvious to an outsider, but so commonplace to the locals that hardly anyone notices. Everywhere I go, every day, SOMEONE is being detained by police. If you aren't actively handing your papers over, then you're on camera. Everywhere. Get up right now and go to the quickie store. Chances are you will see someone either pulled over or being followed by police. When you walk into the store, you're on camera. Your credit/debit card transaction is being logged and stored away for perusal at any time by police. On the way home, as you pass a police officer who has just finished detaining someone else, he's already ran your tag number through a database which returns who you are where you live, your history, and god knows what else. He either pulls you over for whatever reason he self justifies, or goes after the next poor bastard that just happens to be out in public. You get home and flip on the TV without thinking about who's currently compiling a database of what you watch how long you watch and matching it to all other information. EVERY BIT OF THIS INFORMATION CAN BE USED AGAINST YOU BY POLICE. We already live in an Orwellian hell. It's right there in front of our faces in every single daily activity every minute of every day, yet hardly anyone notices. This is not a free country, and it has not been for decades. I think I may go hide somewhere now. Holy poo poo. Farking Bastage fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Jul 30, 2010 |
# ? Jul 30, 2010 16:58 |