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Nah don't worry, I didn't like TC & TC that much, either. It was like he thought 'Chandler + Kafka + unwieldy academia, what a great combination that surely won't be stilted as hell!' and went to town. The idea was okay, the execution wasn't.
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Sep 2, 2010 21:26
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Skutter posted:I'm about 200 pages into the Kraken and finding some of the characters' dialogue hard to read, like someone else previously mentioned. It's not a bad book, and there's interesting things, but not much has really happened and I'm about 1/3 of the way through it. I have two more Mieville books on my list (Un Lun Dun and Rat King) and I'm still waiting for another Bas Lag book. I will probably get poo poo on for this, but I didn't like TC&TC all that much. Inspector Borlu was a very well-written character, but I didn't like much else. I gave Kraken a shot but after finishing it I found it to be the worst of Mieville's books. I've read reviews that claim it to be his best, but after taking another look at it I couldn't find any objective reason why it would be so - unless you really, really love books set in London. Nothing really happens, and I feel like Billy was a completely garbage character for about the first third - many other authors have gone for the "man out of his element" thing and made it believable without resorting to constant dialogue like "Uh what -" "What's going on " "Where am I" "What is this" "Who are you" "What". I really loved The City & The City, but that's because I thought the idea was fascinating enough to overshadow the paper-thin characters and awkward pacing. I'm sure I spent more time trying to figure out what the hell was going on in the cities than actually caring about the plot. Perdido Street Station and The Scar were both great, but again I think it's because Mieville went all out to create fascinating, mind-bending settings that didn't conform to fantasy cliches. Does anybody agree with me? His books are hit-or-miss in my opinion, but if he put as much attention and love into creating his characters and working out the plot as he does with the cities I'd have no problems with any of his work.
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Sep 2, 2010 22:49
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I bought Kraken the day it came out and I STILL haven't finished it. I just simply can't stay interested in it at ALL. Which is weird when I remember starting The Scar on a flight from London to Los Angeles, reading the book the whole flight through, reading it on the shuttle home, getting home and finishing it that night.
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Sep 3, 2010 04:18
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Skutter posted:I'm about 200 pages into the Kraken and finding some of the characters' dialogue hard to read, like someone else previously mentioned. It's not a bad book, and there's interesting things, but not much has really happened and I'm about 1/3 of the way through it. I have two more Mieville books on my list (Un Lun Dun and Rat King) and I'm still waiting for another Bas Lag book. I will probably get poo poo on for this, but I didn't like TC&TC all that much. Inspector Borlu was a very well-written character, but I didn't like much else. I didn't particularly enjoy TC&TC either. I didn't find the central conceit was not as clever, interesting, or narratively vivid as Mieville seemed to. At the very least, I didn't think it sustained the weight of the novel. A Chandler-esque short story or novella that leveraged the central concept might have been more to my taste.
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Sep 3, 2010 06:23
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Young adult/children or otherwise, Un Lun Dun is seriously one of the best books I've ever read. Why don't more people in this thread talk about it? It's a fantastic book with great characters, a killer setting, and what was for my money one of the most satisfying endings ever. Desumaytah fucked around with this message at 10:25 on Sep 4, 2010 |
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Sep 4, 2010 10:15
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Desumaytah posted:Young adult/children or otherwise, Un Lun Dun is seriously one of the best books I've ever read. I really should read it again, I burned through it when it first came out and I've forgotten almost everything (except for China's awesome illustrations). However, The Scar is first on my list for Miéville re-reads. Followed either by Iron Council or Un Lun Dun. And I want to read King Rat again sometime. Add to that the 200 or so non-Miéville books on my to-read list. 
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Sep 6, 2010 15:51
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I've just finished Iron Council, think it's going to be a while before I can bring myself to reread it. Just left me feeling so  .
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Sep 6, 2010 18:17
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Magnificent Quiver posted:I gave Kraken a shot but after finishing it I found it to be the worst of Mieville's books. I've read reviews that claim it to be his best, but after taking another look at it I couldn't find any objective reason why it would be so - unless you really, really love books set in London. Nothing really happens, and I feel like Billy was a completely garbage character for about the first third - many other authors have gone for the "man out of his element" thing and made it believable without resorting to constant dialogue like "Uh what -" "What's going on " "Where am I" "What is this" "Who are you" "What". I'm very willing to overlook the stumbling about of Billy in the first 3rd of the book, since the later 2/3rds of the book is an extremely fast-paced adventure after the mechanics of the world are explained to Billy and the reader. There *are* people who would act like this in a completely foreign situation, and I'm willing to give it to China. The dialogue style was enough to make me ignore Billy's bumbling about as well, as I love it when people write with an accent and slang that I'm not completely familiar with. Frankly, I found Kraken to be incredibly fun, and it's actually the only book I managed to read front to back this summer without starting another book somewhere along the way. I probably could have done without the epilogue, as it was one of the few stories I've ever read that completely satisfied me with the ending, which I really liked.
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Sep 7, 2010 18:32
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Just finished Kraken. Very bizarre, quite fun, and the ending/resolution/whatever you want to call it was pretty oddly satisfying, even if I wish Vardy had been a bit more developed--I know none of the characters were developed much, but we got a brief bio on him and then he rarely showed up. Despite that I liked it and thought the plot all tied together excellently. I have the same general meh with the characters as everyone else, though.
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Sep 11, 2010 00:40
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Just finished Kraken as well. Paul is the best guy for stabbing Subby in the neck over and over and over. I'd say The Scar is still easily my favorite, then this three way ties with PSS and IC for second place. I thought TC&TC was a little weak, and I haven't had a chance to read ULD or KR yet.
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Sep 16, 2010 03:24
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Has anyone read "The Tain"? I don't think I've seen it mentioned in the thread yet.
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Sep 16, 2010 03:31
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I have. It's great. Has the kind of feel of a 28 Days Later type movie. Could have been an entire novel.
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Sep 16, 2010 04:36
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Finished The Scar and really liked it. Strangely though I think I enjoyed PSS more, the stuff that other people found boring (the academic part before it got exciting) were the bits I really liked, and I found The Scar to lack in these compared to PSS. For instance, one of my favorite portions of the book was the very brief description of Coldwine's job translating for the old cray in the opening ten or so pages. Just started Iron Council, and I like the roosters  .
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Sep 17, 2010 18:00
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Finished PSS last night, what a loving good book. My favorite part is that the protagonist isn't some buff white 20 year old army man who gets loads of pussy, it's a fat black 30-something scientist who fucks bug people.
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Sep 23, 2010 15:26
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SwissDonkey posted:Finished PSS last night, what a loving good book. My favorite part is that the protagonist isn't some buff white 20 year old army man who gets loads of pussy, it's a fat black 30-something scientist who fucks bug people. I don't remember Isaac being black.
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Sep 23, 2010 15:40
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He starts off white (or just isn't even described as whatever race) but about half way through Mieville goes batshit and Isaac's skin is referred to as 'dark' like every second page. Sorta just figured someone with 'dark' skin would be black.
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Sep 23, 2010 15:47
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In the first chapter he's described as having dark skin which is the color of burnt wood, so,
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Sep 23, 2010 15:51
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Hedrigall to the rescue. I knew that fat prick was black  Anyway, I just bought Iron Council. The blurb on Amazon makes it look pretty badass. I'm gonna start reading it now
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Sep 23, 2010 15:57
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Awesome! I hope you enjoy it. Just don't expect more of the same. It's very different to PSS & The Scar.
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Sep 23, 2010 16:01
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I always pictured him looking like The Bunk.
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Sep 23, 2010 17:09
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I recently found the Perdido Street Station and The Scar books on my shelf from somewhere to read on holiday  . Anyway, they turned out to be some of the best novels I've read in a long time, especially once I got to know the characters. I enjoyed The Scar more, reading it first likely being the reason why. Kraken kind of disappointed me compared to the more intricate world and characters of the other two I've read. It was still a great book, but relatively it was not as enjoyable for me. Would Iron Council be a good read if I enjoyed the other two books in Bas-Lag?
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Sep 24, 2010 10:02
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odeyseuss posted:Would Iron Council be a good read if I enjoyed the other two books in Bas-Lag? Yes of course. Why wouldn't it be if you liked the other Bas-Lag stuff?
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Sep 24, 2010 10:14
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I didn't know if it was the same style, I was assuming it was because it's in the same world and by the same writer, however, I've read stories by other authors in the same situation, where it's a very different book to its companion books. I probably could have inferred from reading two of them and liking them both that it'd be pretty similar I guess, but there's no harm in asking. I was more just checking it was as good as the other two I guess.
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Sep 24, 2010 10:23
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odeyseuss posted:I didn't know if it was the same style, I was assuming it was because it's in the same world and by the same writer, however, I've read stories by other authors in the same situation, where it's a very different book to its companion books. I probably could have inferred from reading two of them and liking them both that it'd be pretty similar I guess, but there's no harm in asking. I was more just checking it was as good as the other two I guess. Some people don't like it because it is rather a different style. These people are dumbheads. If it means anything, The Scar and Iron Council are tied for my favourite Miéville book.
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Sep 24, 2010 11:18
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Captain_Indigo posted:I always pictured him looking like The Bunk. Except that no one can resist The Bunk, so Isaac ain't like him. And how burnt of wood are we talking, here? Charcoal black, or does it have the white/grey ash on it, or is like toasted nut brown or what! ?! Dear The Scar: One of these days I'll stop cycling library books to get around to reading the rest of you. Kraken just wore me out ok.
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Sep 26, 2010 10:34
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Tiny bit of news: China's UK editor has just tweeted that in the next couple of weeks we'll see cover art for Embassytown. She also says "and the entire backlist" which many mean that all his novels are getting new editions...? Exciting times  edit:  confirmed! I replied to her and she tweeted back: "Yep the ENTIRE Pan Macmillan China Miéville backlist. In glorious new covers. Plus extras. It's a good thing..." Hedrigall fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Oct 5, 2010 |
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Oct 5, 2010 15:02
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I'm two-thirds through the Bas-Lag books right now. I read the Scar and liked it more than PSS, which I thought was fantastic up until the end. The Scar is probably one of my new favorite books. It's just so well done. I will say, however, that there was no single thing in The Scar quite as awesome as the Weaver. Holy poo poo I pretty much did a fistpump whenever that thing showed up. The Scar spoilers: Anyone other than me think that Uther Doul was a total dick? I hated him through pretty much the whole book because I KNEW he was a manipulative bastard and I really just wanted to see him get his smug face punched in. I was totally rooting for the Brucolac up until Shekel bit it. Really I just want China to write an extra scene somewhere where Uther is blabbing on and on about how awesome he is at fighting and how disciplined he is and then a Weaver shows up out of nowhere and skins Uther alive because he needs his hair to decorate the web or whatever. Total dick. Desumaytah fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Oct 15, 2010 |
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Oct 15, 2010 21:39
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Hedrigall posted:Yes of course. Why wouldn't it be if you liked the other Bas-Lag stuff? Maybe if you don't like reading about a character constantly masturbating... Every time that happened it pulled me right out of the story.
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Oct 16, 2010 15:39
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This is so unrealistic! People don't masturbate! Also it happens like once in-text.
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Oct 16, 2010 15:46
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quote:The Scar spoilers: This, definitely, but with some more thrown in: I figured he was up to something through most of the book, but the big reveal at the end where it's implied that he planned and orchestrated the entire loving thing down to the last detail drove me nuts. Don't even get me started on the OMG SWORD PROWESS WITH BULLSHIT MAGIC SWORD! crap. He is basically the Bas-Lag equivalent of some compensating loving nerd's D&D character, and this bothers me. To be fair, we have what is basically a very biased and probably unreliable narrator in this story, and she even says that she's got no idea if Doul truly set it all up or he's just stumbling from one unforeseen crisis to the next yet somehow always making the most appropriate game-saving throw. Either way, the whole concept annoys me. Doul sems so weirdly un-China to me as well. I guess it's because in most of Mieville's stories, he's not afraid to show that characters' dumb decision have some utterly horrendous consequences, and that no one is immune to making dumb decisions. Except Doul, apparently, because he's just so gosh darned special. The Brucolac was a million times cooler, since I felt like he legitimately just wanted what was best for Armada and wasn't being such a puppetmastering douche about it. Also, I really wish he would have loving killed Doul when he had the chance. (Sorry for wall o' black bars.)
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Oct 27, 2010 06:14
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I don't think we're supposed to like Doul. Anyone else possibly going to Historical Materialism 2010 in London? I'm considering it very seriously, and I mention it because China's going to be speaking (though if I go I'll be going mainly for the talks about Walter Benjamin as well as a few other conversations that look quite fascinating this year).
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Oct 27, 2010 13:10
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I think Doul is fine, although he is a big part of the reason why the its one of Chinas weakest books, the ending just ruins everything that took place in the book. But i think Bellis is much worse, last time i re-read it i found her very unlikeable
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Oct 27, 2010 16:43
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My argument was always, while I feel that we're suppose to be amazed at what a bad-rear end Doul is.  Bellis is obviously written intentionally to be unlikable, which as someone else pointed out, is pretty normal of how Mieville writes his protagonists for the Bas-Lag books. That's why it's such a big deal that Bellis has all those letters that she hasn't written to anyone. I think I said this a few pages back, but when you think of The Scar as a personal journey for Bellis, the ending is a lot more fitting.
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Oct 27, 2010 18:19
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Mucktron posted:My argument was always, while I feel that we're suppose to be amazed at what a bad-rear end Doul is. Gotta agree on this. Bellis is a terrible person, but it can be argued she becomes slightly less terrible by the end as a result of her experiences. I would say though, that at least to me it feels like this is a big theme in most of Mieville's Bas-Lag books: that the majority of the characters you encounter are unlikable because they're monstrously selfish, and it's their selfish actions which lead to ruination for everyone involved. (Feel free to extrapolate this into some overarching theory of capitalist self-interest vs. collectivism in light of Mieville's own political beliefs, I guess.) At any rate: Perdido Street Station has Isaac as a protagonist, who is actually kind of an rear end in a top hat if you look a little closer at his motives. He helps Yagharek because it interests him to do so and because it's lucrative. In the course of doing this, he inadvertantly releases the slakemoths which terrorize the city and lead to hundreds dead or vegetized, and he can do this because he entirely fails to perceive how his actions might have consequences for anyone save himself. Lin is less culpable in that regard, but in choosing self-interest in her decision to work for Motley, she ultimately pays the highest price. After the reveal, Isaac next chooses to adandon Yagharek even though, in spite of his past, Yagharek is actually the most self-sacrificing person in the novel, choosing to put himself at great risk to help the gang fight the moths when he could very well have just found himself another scientist. The Scar: is more openly about people behaving like selfish goddamned monsters. Bellis just wants to get out of New Crobuzon, and *then* just wants to get the hell out of Armada no matter the cost, regardless of what consequences this has for anyone else. The Lovers et. al are willing to put everyone at massive risk with their plans, and are only foiled by someone who have orchestrated a massive ruse that sacrifices hundreds in order to ensure its (his) success. Tanner Sack once again represents the most self-sacrificing character here, and yet he too suffers what may be book's highest price when he loses Shekel. Iron Council: Judah Low is a goddamn terrible human being. Within the novel's first pages we are told, over and over, that many people are convinced he's wonderful and are willing to put themselves to terrible risk for his sake. We're shown throughout the novel instances of his good works. And yet all of them come to absolutely nothing and especially his final act in the book, permanently stopping the train in time solely because *he* can't bear to see it defeated. Toro is another great example, and the most obvious on this theme, when it's revealed that she doesn't give a gently caress about the city, she just wanted revenge, and didn't care how many got killed because of her actions. All of Mieville's books are full of terrible people doing terrible selfish things; you're not supposed to like any of them. Although some are admittedly more sympathetic than others, and often, oddly, it's the ones who most obviously transgress. What, exactly, if anything, Mieville is trying to say with all this is up for debate, but I at least contend that it is deliberate.
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Oct 28, 2010 00:43
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Mieville has stated that he is surprised at all the hate Bellis receives though:China Mieville posted:Funnily enough,many people have said to me, "It's very brave that you wrote such an unlikeable character as Bellis." I love Bellis! I think she's brilliant. For the record I liked Bellis.
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Oct 28, 2010 04:23
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LZEnglish posted:The Scar: is more openly about people behaving like selfish goddamned monsters. Bellis just wants to get out of New Crobuzon, and *then* just wants to get the hell out of Armada no matter the cost, regardless of what consequences this has for anyone else. But she eventually ends up accepting the fact that isn't worth sending the remade back into the penal system, just for her to be able to go home. She slings it as a line, initially, but ends up believing it, and ultimately only helps Silas when he "proves" to her that it won't put Armada at risk. She starts out fairly arrogant, desperate and self-centered, but I do think she winds up a (slightly) better person by the end of the book. Compare her treatment of, well, everyone in the beginning of the book to how she basically risks her life trying to get the Grindylow to leave Armada at the end.
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Oct 28, 2010 06:28
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Thanks to this thread, I discovered and read all three Bas-Lag novels. Fantastic stuff! In a world where the books were adapted faithfully as films with production values exceeding Lord of the Rings, who would you cast? I imagine Cate Blanchett would be a great Bellis, and Ray Winstone is my top choice to play Tanner Sack. Also, I read all of Mr. Motley's lines in Hannibal Lector's voice, so I'd really dig Anthony Hopkins in that role. What do you guys think? Any actors you would want to see portray your favorite characters? How about Issac? I'm not familiar with any fat black British actors. Deus Ex Manatee fucked around with this message at 08:13 on Oct 28, 2010 |
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Oct 28, 2010 08:11
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I just finished reading all three Bas-Lag books in order, and liked PSS and The Scar equally much, IC a bit less. What I liked most about Perdido Street Station was the near constant barrage of new and (for me) surprising stuff. It was almost like it was paced so that every ten pages would bring up some new cool concept: Xeno-sex! Voyadonoi! Khepri! Watercraeft! Hell! Garuda! Weaver! Cactus people! Handlings! Crisis energy! Remaking! Slake Moths! Construct Council! Jack Half-A-Prayer! This is what made the book so enjoyable for me to read, because I genuinely felt surprised that Mieville could keep up with this constant flow of inventive stuff. It felt like it was 10 years worth of daydreaming that just poured out in one single burst. That being said, the ending of PSS, on the other hand, felt like Mieville suddenly just went "Argh! gently caress this!" and ended the book as quickly as he could after spewing out page after page of new stuff. Tac Dibar fucked around with this message at 12:25 on Oct 28, 2010 |
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Oct 28, 2010 12:11
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Deus Ex Manatee posted:What do you guys think? Any actors you would want to see portray your favorite characters? How about Issac? I'm not familiar with any fat black British actors. In my head I always read Weather Wrightby as Daniel Day Lewis in There Will Be Blood.
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Oct 28, 2010 12:22
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I really don't get the hatred for Bellis. She is selfish in her urge to get back home, but why shouldn't she be, I found the whole "one for all and all for one" attitude of Armada to be ridiculously manipultivie brainwashing considering how most of the people ended up there. I guess I just don't understand whyshe should fall on her sword for Armada I see her actions as more desperate than selfish and I actually quite liked how she dealt with most of the situations in the book. Tanner was nice too, but I think the real hero is...I forget his name, but the mosquito man who dies in the submarine thing when the Grindylow attack. that, or Hedrigal. After tearing through PSS and The Scar, I'm finding it hard to get into Iron Council. My schedule has changed significantly, which is part of the problem, but I just can't seem to get through the opening (I presume its sort of a prologue). It starts in media res a lot more than the previous two, any advice on how far in the plot takes a little more shape?
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Oct 28, 2010 12:28
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