Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

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builds character: Jan 16, 2008; Keep at it.

Ainsley McTree posted:

Well, I didn't really do anything to earn it honestly - a friend of mine who works at the company suggested me for the project and they hired me without an interview or even asking for my resume(not as risky as it sounds, I firmly believe that with enough training a second grader could do this job satisfactorily but I'm still not complaining because it's stress-free) so all I did really was have an awesome friend.

Life is unfair. It just happened to be unfair in your favor this time. Enjoy it!

# ? Oct 21, 2010 16:30

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# ? Apr 28, 2024 21:27

JudicialRestraints: Oct 26, 2007; Are you a LAWYER? Because I'll have you know I got GOOD GRADES in LAW SCHOOL last semester. Don't even try to argue THE LAW with me.

Professor just explained that his grading rubric is dictated to him by a bottle of scotch as he's grading.

I love this class.

# ? Oct 21, 2010 19:26

remote control carnivore: May 7, 2009

All of your professors grade that way, he's just the first to admit it.

# ? Oct 21, 2010 19:37

Incredulous Red: Mar 25, 2008

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1290088

quote:

A third-year Boston College Law School student facing dismal job prospects and a mountain of student loan debt has offered the prestigious Hub institution a unique deal: Keep the degree ... and give me back my tuition!

In an open letter to BC Law�s Interim Dean George Brown posted on EagleiOnline� an online student-run newspaper at BC�s law school � the anonymous dissatisfied customer said soon-to-be grads are about to enter �one of the worst job markets in the history of our profession� and an �overwhelming majority� of them can�t find jobs.

�We are discouraged, scared, and in many cases, feeling rather hopeless about our chances of ever getting to practice law,� the student wrote.

The law school student�s missive then proposed a �solution to this problem.�

The student offered to leave law school without a degree at the end of the semester in exchange for a full tuition refund � a move the erstwhile aspiring attorney says would help BC�s US News ranking because it wouldn�t have to report another graduate�s state of unemployment.

BC Law is not warm to the idea. The law school said in a statement yesterday it is �deeply concerned� about its students� job prospects but no institution of higher education can guarantee a job after graduation. �What we can do is provide the best education possible, and work together to provide as many career opportunities as possible,� the statement said.

Glenn Reynolds, a University of Tennessee law professor who blogs at instapundit.com, said the job market for law students has weakened considerably over the last few years, mostly in the Northeast and on the West Coast.

Reynolds offered this advice pro bono: �Can somebody actually get a refund for their tuition money? He�s not going to win a lawsuit.�

Cornell Law School professor and legalinsurrection.com blogger William Jacobson said: �I doubt they guaranteed him a particular job or level of income upon graduation, so I don�t see what his claim would be.�

But Reynolds said the letter �underscores the plight� of a lot of people who have gone to expensive, private law schools with the expectation that they�d have a decent shot of landing a �good paying job� if they did reasonably well.

�Now, they have all these student loan debts that they can�t even escape in bankruptcy and their employment prospects look a lot bleaker than they looked when they were enrolled,� Reynolds said.

Tuition and housing costs nearly $60,000 a year at BC Law School. The school�s Web site says 97.6 percent of the Class of 2009 got jobs in law firms, government, business or academia, with a median �private sector� salary of $160,000; $35,000 in the �public sector� and $57,000 in �government.�

# ? Oct 21, 2010 20:14

Neon Belly: Feb 12, 2008; I need something stronger.

Incredulous Red posted:

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1290088

This was only mentioned a few times on this page already, but thanks for the picture!!

# ? Oct 21, 2010 20:51

Tetrix: Aug 24, 2002

Federal gov. employee goons: Does FOIA actually require the federal government retain documents, or are the only documents that can be requested ones that the agency randomly decided to keep?

# ? Oct 22, 2010 00:09

TheMadMilkman: Dec 10, 2007

Speaking of federal employees, it's time to join the IRS!

http://jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.aspx?JobID=91589845&aid=89081893-211010&WT.mc_n=125

# ? Oct 22, 2010 00:19

Ainsley McTree: Feb 19, 2004

TheMadMilkman posted:

Speaking of federal employees, it's time to join the IRS!

http://jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.aspx?JobID=91589845&aid=89081893-211010&WT.mc_n=125

So how's the whole accounting principles or whatever test thing work? When do you take it? Is it part of the application or do they contact you to take it some time after you apply?

Also, how much time does it take to study for it and what do you use to do that

# ? Oct 22, 2010 00:29

CmdrSmirnoff: Oct 27, 2005; happy happy happy happy happy happy happy happy happy

TheMadMilkman posted:

Speaking of federal employees, it's time to join the IRS!

http://jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.aspx?JobID=91589845&aid=89081893-211010&WT.mc_n=125

I'm loving my first and only tax class ever and would immediately apply for this if not for that pesky citizenship requirement. :saddowns:

# ? Oct 22, 2010 00:32

G-Mawwwwwww: Jan 31, 2003; My LPth are Hot Garbage; Biscuit Hider

Jesus is it depressing when the yale law grad with 50 years of torts experience rewrites your work. Not because he rewrote your work, but because it's so loving good and you know it'll take your entire career to get to that point. If ever.

:sigh:

G-Mawwwwwww fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Oct 22, 2010

# ? Oct 22, 2010 00:33

joat mon: Oct 15, 2009; I am the master of my lamp;
I am the captain of my tub.

Tetrix posted:

Federal gov. employee goons: Does FOIA actually require the federal government retain documents, or are the only documents that can be requested ones that the agency randomly decided to keep?

FOIA does not impose any retention requirements. Each agency will have its own retention policies.

# ? Oct 22, 2010 00:56

TheMadMilkman: Dec 10, 2007

Ainsley McTree posted:

So how's the whole accounting principles or whatever test thing work? When do you take it? Is it part of the application or do they contact you to take it some time after you apply?

Also, how much time does it take to study for it and what do you use to do that

Things have changed a bit since I applied, but here goes.

As part of the application I had to fill out KSAs (don't ask me what it stands for) where I explained how my experience and schooling prepped me for the particular job requirements. This part has apparently changed substantially. I'm not sure you even have to answer the questions anymore.

After being selected from the initial applicant pool, I had to do a 2-part online evaluation. One was a multiple choice test that covered customer service or some other garbage. The second part was a java- or flash-based simulation where you would have to interpret simplified tax law and apply it to individuals that you were auditing. You also had to make sure the choices you made stayed within things like scheduling rules.

After passing the simulation (and if you don't there's something wrong with you) I was called in for an interview. Because I didn't have the accounting credits I had to take an accounting skills test. I bought an Intro to Accounting review book from Borders and read through it the night before. I passed pretty easily.

The actual interview involved 8 standard questions and included things like how you would prioritize work, how you would give negative news to people, and some minor mathematical work. It was stupid easy.

From there I got my job offer. Definitely apply for it. If you get to the interview, send me a PM and I'll give some better advice about the accounting test.

# ? Oct 22, 2010 01:39

Lilosh: Jul 13, 2001; I'm Lilosh with an OSHY

Red Bean Juice posted:

Justice Breyer swung by today, and I got him to sign a comic

To add to the ego stroking:

You also have fans at Cornell.

# ? Oct 22, 2010 02:02

Petey: Nov 26, 2005; For who knows what is good for a person in life, during the few and meaningless days they pass through like a shadow? Who can tell them what will happen under the sun after they are gone?

and fans at UMass (among the poli sci professors).

Also, a friend is not too smart:

Only registered members can see post attachments!

# ? Oct 22, 2010 02:14

Ainsley McTree: Feb 19, 2004

TheMadMilkman posted:

Things have changed a bit since I applied, but here goes.

As part of the application I had to fill out KSAs (don't ask me what it stands for) where I explained how my experience and schooling prepped me for the particular job requirements. This part has apparently changed substantially. I'm not sure you even have to answer the questions anymore.

After being selected from the initial applicant pool, I had to do a 2-part online evaluation. One was a multiple choice test that covered customer service or some other garbage. The second part was a java- or flash-based simulation where you would have to interpret simplified tax law and apply it to individuals that you were auditing. You also had to make sure the choices you made stayed within things like scheduling rules.

After passing the simulation (and if you don't there's something wrong with you) I was called in for an interview. Because I didn't have the accounting credits I had to take an accounting skills test. I bought an Intro to Accounting review book from Borders and read through it the night before. I passed pretty easily.

The actual interview involved 8 standard questions and included things like how you would prioritize work, how you would give negative news to people, and some minor mathematical work. It was stupid easy.

From there I got my job offer. Definitely apply for it. If you get to the interview, send me a PM and I'll give some better advice about the accounting test.

Cool - so at this point, I don't need to know anything about accounting at all? I can wait for them to call me re: the next steps before I have to start studying for anything?

I'm clearly very qualified for this position I don't know why they wouldn't call me

# ? Oct 22, 2010 05:11

Soothing Vapors: Mar 26, 2006; Associate Justice Lena "Kegels" Dunham: An uncool thought to have: 'is that guy walking in the dark behind me a rapist? Never mind, he's Asian.

Petey posted:

and fans at UMass (among the poli sci professors).

Also, a friend is not too smart:

I swear I've seen that comment before

# ? Oct 22, 2010 05:49

The Arsteia: Nov 17, 2008

Lilosh posted:

To add to the ego stroking:

You also have fans at Cornell.

And Minnesota :O)

# ? Oct 22, 2010 07:32

Green Crayons: Apr 2, 2009

Torts professor made fun of the class (again) yesterday for going to law school. He laughed at there being no jobs for us.

The majority of class laughed with him. I'm thinking not because it was funny because it was true, but because it was funny because everyone's a special snowflake and that just won't hold true for them.

That's why I laughed. It helps to mask the otherwise blind panic and fear.

# ? Oct 22, 2010 10:13

Soothing Vapors: Mar 26, 2006; Associate Justice Lena "Kegels" Dunham: An uncool thought to have: 'is that guy walking in the dark behind me a rapist? Never mind, he's Asian.

comfort me lawgoons

the MPRE is super easy and only takes like 10 hours of study right? I have not taken ethics and have not yet opened a book

# ? Oct 22, 2010 18:08

Linguica: Jul 13, 2000; You're already dead

Soothing Vapors posted:

comfort me lawgoons

the MPRE is super easy and only takes like 10 hours of study right? I have not taken ethics and have not yet opened a book

if you fail the MPRE with even the slightest modicum of studying you might as well kill yourself

i studied for maybe 5 hours (most of which was half-listening to the free online kaplan videos) and still passed

# ? Oct 22, 2010 18:11

Wyatt: Jul 7, 2009; NOOOOOOOOOO.

Soothing Vapors posted:

the MPRE is super easy and only takes like 10 hours of study right? I have not taken ethics and have not yet opened a book

To quote myself:

Wyatt posted:

Yes. The ethics rules are pretty intuitive. Unless you are a corrupt bastard, you could probably do okay without studying at all.

Just read through the rules and you'll be fine.

# ? Oct 22, 2010 18:16

Soothing Vapors: Mar 26, 2006; Associate Justice Lena "Kegels" Dunham: An uncool thought to have: 'is that guy walking in the dark behind me a rapist? Never mind, he's Asian.

5 hours/no hours sounds even better

thanks friends~

# ? Oct 22, 2010 18:19

Bud Manstrong: Dec 11, 2003; The Curse of the Flying Criosphinx

Had a client threaten to "liquidate" someone today.

More importantly

# ? Oct 22, 2010 18:33

Tetrix: Aug 24, 2002

Bud Manstrong posted:

Had a client threaten to "liquidate" someone today.

More importantly

law school applications just went up 10% with that picture.

# ? Oct 22, 2010 18:44

G-Mawwwwwww: Jan 31, 2003; My LPth are Hot Garbage; Biscuit Hider

Bud Manstrong posted:

Had a client threaten to "liquidate" someone today.

More importantly

FLOUR tortillas?

# ? Oct 22, 2010 18:47

The Rokstar: Aug 19, 2002; by FactsAreUseless

My professional responsibility class was essentially an MPRE review course, so I never did one minute of studying outside of that class and I passed with no problems whatsoever.

# ? Oct 22, 2010 18:49

Defleshed: Nov 18, 2004; F is for... FREEDOM

Soothing Vapors posted:

comfort me lawgoons

the MPRE is super easy and only takes like 10 hours of study right? I have not taken ethics and have not yet opened a book

It is easy and you will pass. Seriously, spend like 3 hours listening to some lectures you'll be fine.

# ? Oct 22, 2010 18:50

builds character: Jan 16, 2008; Keep at it.

CaptainScraps posted:

FLOUR tortillas?

Some people are allergic to corn.

edit: not me.

builds character fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Oct 22, 2010

# ? Oct 22, 2010 18:53

Bud Manstrong: Dec 11, 2003; The Curse of the Flying Criosphinx

CaptainScraps posted:

FLOUR tortillas?

They're corn. Phone camera washed them out. They don't have flour tortillas :ese:

Bud Manstrong fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Oct 22, 2010

# ? Oct 22, 2010 18:56

G-Mawwwwwww: Jan 31, 2003; My LPth are Hot Garbage; Biscuit Hider

Bud Manstrong posted:

They're corn. Phone camera washed them out. They don't have flour tortillas .

Acceptable. :love:

# ? Oct 22, 2010 19:03

TheBestDeception: Nov 28, 2007

The Rokstar posted:

My professional responsibility class was essentially an MPRE review course, so I never did one minute of studying outside of that class and I passed with no problems whatsoever.

This would have been useful. Instead, mine was a semester of asking what we all thought about certain moral dilemmas and issues, as well as watching youtube clips from lawyer-related movies. At least the section on Legal Education allowed me to write my research paper on how there were too many law schools and not enough jobs.

I brought that up in class too. The response from another student was basically that people should have easy access to law school so they can exercise their right to be an attorney.

Edit:

Job update - just offered a position as an Assistant Attorney General.

TheBestDeception fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Oct 22, 2010

# ? Oct 22, 2010 19:04

Dr. Mantis Toboggan: May 5, 2003

This HAD to be one of you guys:

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/10/the-barter-deal-from-a-law-graduate-craigslist-doesnt-want-you-to-see/#more-41834

# ? Oct 22, 2010 20:46

entris: Oct 22, 2008; by Y Kant Ozma Post

god those tacos look awful. Where is the cheese? Where is the delicious red salsa? Why so many gross rear end onions?

# ? Oct 22, 2010 20:48

Petey: Nov 26, 2005; For who knows what is good for a person in life, during the few and meaningless days they pass through like a shadow? Who can tell them what will happen under the sun after they are gone?

builds character posted:

Some people are allergic to corn.

edit: not me.

this made me so hungry

# ? Oct 22, 2010 20:51

Petey: Nov 26, 2005; For who knows what is good for a person in life, during the few and meaningless days they pass through like a shadow? Who can tell them what will happen under the sun after they are gone?

Petey posted:

this made me so hungry

hungry enough where it pushed me over the edge and I went and got a carnitas burrito from anna's - dirty rice, carnitas, jalapenos, pico de gallo, and lettuce, flour tortilla.

would've taken a picture, but a) they steam their tortillas so they are soft and stick together when rolled and b) too hungry to not eat it.

# ? Oct 22, 2010 21:08

Blinkz0rz: May 27, 2001; MY CONTEMPT FOR MY OWN EMPLOYEES IS ONLY MATCHED BY MY LOVE FOR TOM BRADY'S SWEATY MAGA BALLS

entris posted:

god those tacos look awful. Where is the cheese? Where is the delicious red salsa? Why so many gross rear end onions?

You disgust me.

Petey posted:

hungry enough where it pushed me over the edge and I went and got a carnitas burrito from anna's - dirty rice, carnitas, jalapenos, pico de gallo, and lettuce, flour tortilla.

would've taken a picture, but a) they steam their tortillas so they are soft and stick together when rolled and b) too hungry to not eat it.

Go to Tacos Lupita outside Porter, their tacos are so goddamn good.

# ? Oct 22, 2010 21:20

Soothing Vapors: Mar 26, 2006; Associate Justice Lena "Kegels" Dunham: An uncool thought to have: 'is that guy walking in the dark behind me a rapist? Never mind, he's Asian.

one more dumb mpre question: is the barbri mpre review course even worth going to? I filez-ed the materials (ethics :thumbsup:

) and I'd rather not sit through the lecture

e: and it's at Cooley, UGH
e2: I just checked my :filez:

and I have audio lectures, outlines, and practice tests, I should be fine. thanks for calming me down a lil bit gooners

Soothing Vapors fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Oct 22, 2010

# ? Oct 22, 2010 21:47

Petey: Nov 26, 2005; For who knows what is good for a person in life, during the few and meaningless days they pass through like a shadow? Who can tell them what will happen under the sun after they are gone?

just replace 'college' with 'law school'

http://chronicle.com/blogs/innovations/why-did-17-million-students-go-to-college/27634

quote:

Why Did 17 Million Students Go to College?
_{October 20, 2010, 9:53 am

_{By Richard Vedder}}

Two sets of information were presented to me in the last 24 hours that have dramatically reinforced my feeling that diminishing returns have set in to investments in higher education, with increasing evidence suggesting that we are in one respect �overinvesting� in the field. First, following up on information provided by former student Douglas Himes at the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), my sidekick Chris Matgouranis showed me the table reproduced below (And for more see this).

Over 317,000 waiters and waitresses have college degrees (over 8,000 of them have doctoral or professional degrees), along with over 80,000 bartenders, and over 18,000 parking lot attendants. All told, some 17,000,000 Americans with college degrees are doing jobs that the BLS says require less than the skill levels associated with a bachelor�s degree.

I have long been a proponent of Charles Murray�s thesis that an increasing number of people attending college do not have the cognitive abilities or other attributes usually necessary for success at higher levels of learning. As more and more try to attend colleges, either college degrees will be watered down (something already happening I suspect) or drop-out rates will rise.

The relentless claims of the Obama administration and others that having more college graduates is necessary for continued economic leadership is incompatible with this view. Putting issues of student abilities aside, the growing disconnect between labor market realities and the propaganda of higher-education apologists is causing more and more people to graduate and take menial jobs or no job at all. This is even true at the doctoral and professional level�there are 5,057 janitors in the U.S. with Ph.D.�s, other doctorates, or professional degrees.

This week an extraordinarily interesting new study was posted on the Web site of America�s most prestigious economic-research organization, the National Bureau of Economic Research. Three highly regarded economists (one of whom has won the Nobel Prize in Economic Science) have produced �Estimating Marginal Returns in Education,� Working Paper 16474 of the NBER. After very sophisticated and elaborate analysis, the authors conclude �In general, marginal and average returns to college are not the same.� (p. 28)

In other words, even if on average, an investment in higher education yields a good, say 10 percent, rate of return, it does not follow that adding to existing investments will yield that return, partly for reasons outlined above. The authors (Pedro Carneiro, James Heckman, and Edward Vytlacil) make that point explicitly, stating �Some marginal expansions of schooling produce gains that are well below average returns, in general agreement with the analysis of Charles Murray.� (p.29)

Now it is true that college has a consumption as well as investment function. People often enjoy going to classes, just as they enjoy watching movies or taking trips. They love the socialization dimensions of schooling�particularly in this age of the country-clubization of American universities. They may improve their self-esteem by earning a college degree. Yet, at a time when resources are scarce, when American governments are running $1.3-trillion deficits, when we face huge unfunded liabilities associated with commitments made to our growing elderly population, should we be subsidizing increasingly problematic educational programs for students whose prior academic record would suggest little likelihood of academic, much less vocational, success?

I think the American people understand, albeit dimly, the logic above. Increasingly, state governments are cutting back higher-education funding, thinking it is an activity that largely confers private benefits. The pleas of university leaders and governmental officials for more and more college attendance appear to be increasingly costly and unproductive forms of special pleading by a sector that abhors transparency and performance measures.

Higher education is on the brink of big change, like it or not.

will you be part of the proud 5,057?

# ? Oct 22, 2010 21:55

_areaman: Oct 28, 2009

I'd guess that 50% of people in entry-level professional jobs that require a college degree received those jobs with the help of family or friends. That's probably a conservative estimate. Rich Richardson III will have a job at his dad's firm, or his dad's friend's firm, as long as he is capable of getting a degree. That's a pointed example, but I'm sure many people got their foot in the door with some extra help, even if they aren't rich.

Now, let's say you have no connections, and want to break into a professional field. The best chances of succeeding are being in the top 50% of your class in a hard science or engineering. You also need to have some people skills, so let's say a conservative 5% are unemployable because they are just plain strange.

That leaves 55% of hard science/engineering majors and the vast majority of humanities/soft science majors who paid for 4+ years of university who are unable to get a professional job.

If I had to give a prospective undergraduate advice, I'd say get into a hard science or engineering and work as hard as you can. Or have good connections. Otherwise, why pay $100k+ for a degree? The deck is simply stacked against you.

# ? Oct 22, 2010 23:35

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# ? Apr 28, 2024 21:27

TheMadMilkman: Dec 10, 2007

Ainsley McTree posted:

Cool - so at this point, I don't need to know anything about accounting at all? I can wait for them to call me re: the next steps before I have to start studying for anything?

I'm clearly very qualified for this position I don't know why they wouldn't call me

Yes.

# ? Oct 23, 2010 00:13

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

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