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While Kvothe was weak as a character, I really like the way Rothfuss writes - not so much the characters and plots but just the way he assembles words one after another is a joy to read. While the plot is lacking overall, I'd still read another book just because I like the way he writes. And it seems like, according to the ARC review posted a bit ago, that he's heard these criticisms many times and is taking steps to remedy them in Wise Man's Fear. Hell, I'll give it a shot on day one. Even if it's terrible, his mastery of the language will be enough reason for me to read it.
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Dec 20, 2010 20:03
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Rothfuss's Kvothe-as-goony-Mary-Sue creepiness really didn't bother me and I sort of felt inclined to defend him until I read that blog post on circumcision posted on the last page. Holy crap, that's probably one of the creepiest things I've ever seen. GRRM might be goony and a lazy writer but at least his blog posts are all about football and partying.
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Dec 20, 2010 20:37
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uberkeyzer posted:I totally understand this argument and empathized with it until i read about 20 pages of the transformers 2 thread in Cinema Discusso and saw it trotted out about five million to defend jive-shuckin' robots with TRUCK BALLSs, and realized it can be used to defend the indefensible. You can make the exact same argument in the Animorphs thread (with the exception of the prose, I guess, although at least those books probably don't refer to every loving shade of red as "hearts blood") In conclusion, "hey dude turn your brain off and just enjoy what was your favorite magic spell Kvothe cast ^__^" is a useless thing to post, thanks. Goony characters are not quite the same as robot balls. The latter fall quite squarely under what i termed "offensive" in my previous post, while the former are simply part of the character. i guess my litmus test would be my suspension of disbelief. If a writer creates a situation or a character undergoes some event that breaks my suspension that's obviously a big red 'X' in the "bad book" column. (though i had 'fun' at transformers2, there were multiple eyerolls which definitely pulled me out of the movie) I thought Rotfuss did a good job of writing a highly intelligent and talented teenager with the social maturity of a five year old and an idealism/attitude towards women caught somewhere between the crusades and the 1950s Even in the 'present' events Kvothe is not past his mid-twenties, and by all appearances hasn't matured much. If the internet has taught me anything, this is quite normal. One might argue that Rothfuss is simply writing what he knows, or perhaps he's writing something that he sees. The fact that we can so easily describe Kvothe with a term such as 'Goony' demonstrates his characterization isn't too far from certain everyday realities. With luck Wise Man's Fear will show marked improvement (he's been writing it long enough damnit) Anyway, i enjoyed the book, look forward to the next one, and highly recommend it to anyone who likes a great fantasy novel. It's should hopefully shape into a fantastic series. edit: and yeah...blogpost awkwardness...thats why i dont read authors blogs, books are easier to enjoy when i know nothing about the author and their odd obsessions.
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Dec 21, 2010 10:52
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I don't know about everyone else, but I've been describing the author as goony, not the character. A Confederacy of Dunces and the Catcher in the Rye are books that describe flawed, goony characters really well. This is what happens when a goony author tries to write a cool, deep character, but his gooniness seeps through (at least partially) unintentionally. Personally, my suspension of disbelief was pretty well blown every time Kvothe swanned through some overblown tragedy or bumbling bad guy's plot with no actual consequences.
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Dec 21, 2010 12:33
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King Crab posted:He's a kid, dude. Kids do stupid things sometimes and then claim that they know everything. That is what happens when you are young. This is my biggest problem with some comments. People seem to forget that it is a story of a 15 year old who has zero experience with women. It is also told in first person by a person who was raised by elite performers; and is, apparently, washed up. It is possible to be a genius but completely naive. One example that sticks out is when he goes to the archives and the guy at the counter offers him a candle. My first thought was 'why the hell would they allow open flames around stacks of books and scrolls that are one-of-a-kind?' I had thoughts of the Royal Library of Alexandria going up in flames.
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Dec 21, 2010 17:59
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Penfold the Brave posted:This was me, and I stand by it - there's one line in particular that I remember laughing so hard on the train that people were looking at me. It was something like: Ah, I see now. Stories aren't allowed to have superheros anymore. Check.
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Dec 21, 2010 18:03
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Melche posted:I don't know about everyone else, but I've been describing the author as goony, not the character. A Confederacy of Dunces and the Catcher in the Rye are books that describe flawed, goony characters really well. This is what happens when a goony author tries to write a cool, deep character, but his gooniness seeps through (at least partially) unintentionally. Yeah, this is pretty much spot-on. Kvothe is goony because Rothfuss is goony and it's just seeping out through his characterization. If Kvothe didn't start out as Rothfuss' D&D character I'll be surprised. quote:The fact that we can so easily describe Kvothe with a term such as 'Goony' demonstrates his characterization isn't too far from certain everyday realities. With luck Wise Man's Fear will show marked improvement (he's been writing it long enough damnit) Kvothe does not live in our reality - it isn't realistic for him to be a goon. Where is his internet? Where are his pornographic images of women he both desires and resents? Where's his ladder theory? Where's his world of warcraft? Where is his comedy forum? Do not these things make a goony gently caress who he is? Besides which, we loving laugh at goony assholes. Nobody in Rothfuss' world is laughing at Kvothe, they are all making GBS threads their pants because his eyes are flashing with badassery. This is the objection. quote:Ah, I see now. Stories aren't allowed to have superheros anymore. Check. This isn't even remotely close to what I said, but ok. Penfold the Brave fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Dec 21, 2010 |
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Dec 21, 2010 18:19
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treeboy posted:The fact that we can so easily describe Kvothe with a term such as 'Goony' demonstrates his characterization isn't too far from certain everyday realities. The problem is that Kvothe would be a shut-in in real life, not a tremendous badass whose name is whispered like a bogey man.
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Dec 21, 2010 18:40
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mabbott74 posted:This is my biggest problem with some comments. People seem to forget that it is a story of a 15 year old who has zero experience with women. It is also told in first person by a person who was raised by elite performers; and is, apparently, washed up. Man, everyone has answered this so drat many times, and still every third post is someone telling us we're forgetting it. No I'm not forgetting that, and if I was I'd have been reminded by every single post in this thread, including my own. Look, the insight that he might not be a completely reliable narrator, and might even be exaggerating his story, doesn't magically give him character depth. For an unreliable narrator to work as a device you actually have to do something with it. As has been said over and over again, we'd all really like to have read an interesting story where you figure out who he really is through a haze of his bullshit. But it just never happens, and you can't just pretend it has. Throughout the whole book every other character and the author (in the third person parts) treat him as the exact ridiculous figure he claims to be. Saying "oho well he's probably exaggerating" isn't enough when nothing whatsoever is done with that possibility.
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Dec 21, 2010 20:38
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I know these books are worse than cancer and anyone that reads them should die from anal bleeding, but tossing this out there for the troglodytes that would be interested in such things: you can preorder signed copies of both Kvothe books.
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Dec 23, 2010 05:45
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If your definition of goony and unplausible rests primarily on having over the top romanticized attitudes towards women I shudder to think what you literary analysis geniuses think of everything ever written by the romantics in the 19th century. A minstrel in a medieval society talks about his love interest in poeticized language well I loving never, there goes my immersion goon sire! It would be less obnoxious to have people constantly restate that that they just dislike the character, as opposed to trying and put together some pseudo-psychoanalytical mumbo jumbo about how the author is seeping into the character. But hey, maybe I should spend more time reading Forum Literature so I can be more on the look out for such unacceptable and never before seen tropes as Overprotective would-be boyfriend and Chick that likes musicians but also rich people. And complaining about ambrose or whatever being a bumbler is like whining that the janitor dude with the cat in Harry Potter is a bad villain. Who the gently caress cares? Neither book is acting as if those guys are anything beyond semi-comic relief. And finally the whole premise of magic is a nerdy mary sue. You can study a book that makes you be able to do stuff to real objects as opposed to just ideas. Nerds don't get laughed at in worlds where nerds can blow people up by looking at them, stunningly shocking. e. I mean poo poo, the worst and still relevant thing you can say about Kvothe is that he's just a version of the somewhat obnoxious Byronic hero trope. You may not like the trope, but a) it's not particularly badly written or used by Rothfuss and b) it's not exactly unused by otherwise critically well received books. But no clearly it's GOONYNESS, because hurf blurf. Sil fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Dec 23, 2010 |
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Dec 23, 2010 15:24
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I realize most of the problems of the story (not the author or overarching plot or even gooniness) is having half of it fall directly into a angsty teen/uni days drama-rama. I mean, who honestly says to themselves 'heck yes 300 pages of school days in something that isn't a YA novel, there'll be mean teachers and a pesky boyfriend to overcome and having to worry about tuition, that'll be interesting as gently caress. No, no it isn't. We don't need all this poo poo to understand why Kvothe is the way he is. You already did that in the first half of the book. I don't need an entire chapter explaining to me that you're starting to tell me about your ~first girlfriend~ but you can't yet but you will but you have to wait a little more or some poo poo and then when she shows up, surprise it's e/n 101. I can see where he plotted this portion of the series out while still in college. Hell, these exact scenarios happened in part to people I knew, which might explain the popularity, but doesn't really feel moving in a revenge tale, I dunno. But: quote:I really like the way Rothfuss writes - not so much the characters and plots but just the way he assembles words one after another is a joy to read. This is true, and I'll probably read the next one due to it.
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Dec 23, 2010 20:33
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Sil posted:words Scott Lynch covers a lot of the same ground that Patrick Rothfuss does and does it much better. It's not the tropes that annoy me, it's that it's badly done. I have nothing but nice things to say about The Lies of Locke Lamora so it has nothing to do with me expecting some great work of literature from a bloody fantasy novel. Besides which, my primary reason for disliking Kvothe comes not from his weird and offputting attitudes towards women, but from this: HeroOfTheRevolution posted:The problem is that Kvothe would be a shut-in in real life, not a tremendous badass whose name is whispered like a bogey man. But whatever, blurf durf, sorry I don't like a character in the book that you like.
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Dec 25, 2010 23:40
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I think it would be pretty cool if Kvothe was both a demi-nerd shut-in and a tremendous bad rear end. Someone with world shattering powers and the inability to carry out a normal human conversation would be pretty entertaining.
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Dec 26, 2010 00:09
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keiran_helcyan posted:I think it would be pretty cool if Kvothe was both a demi-nerd shut-in and a tremendous bad rear end. Someone with world shattering powers and the inability to carry out a normal human conversation would be pretty entertaining. The cover is the protagonist standing on a cliff's edge at dawn, dragon shirt and utilikilt fluttering in the wind...
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Dec 26, 2010 17:35
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Sil posted:e. I mean poo poo, the worst and still relevant thing you can say about Kvothe is that he's just a version of the somewhat obnoxious Byronic hero trope. You may not like the trope, but a) it's not particularly badly written or used by Rothfuss and b) it's not exactly unused by otherwise critically well received books. But no clearly it's GOONYNESS, because hurf blurf. Actually no the worst thing you can say is something I said earlier in this thread: quote:I can't point to specific pages, but when he's dalking about Denna/Diana/Dean whatever her name is to his buddy, and his buddy is all "she a bitch" his response is goony as gently caress. "Yes, she is cruel, like a cruel wind, a force of nature that cannot be controlled. And she's also a shy deer, you can't make any sudden movements or she will be startled and run away. That's why I'm hanging around while she bangs other dudes, creeping slowly closer until one day we will be lovers instead of friends." There is even a paragraph where he revels in the fact that he's superior to all her lovers because they don't truly understand her like he does, and they come and go while he's always there for her. None of this poo poo is byronic. It's just awful.
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Dec 27, 2010 02:16
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I actually enjoyed this book quite a bit. I was worried after reading some of this thread but ended up not really having a problem with Kvothe. It seems like Rothfuss is bringing up some interesting questions about what it takes to be a hero and I don't see Kvothe as being too perfect to make it interesting. He's obviously got crazy talent and book smarts but after suffering tragedy in his early life and living alone for so long he seems to have come out totally socially inept which I think is pretty different from how he would have turned out had he finished growing up with his parents. To me, they seemed the opposite. He thinks he's such a badass but is barely kept afloat by talent-not-seen-in-a-generation skillset. He can't hold onto money whatsoever. He can't seem to stop himself from taking dumb risks because, I can only assume, he is so confident in his greatness. He is seriously hopeless when it comes to girls (Sim and Wil are constantly telling how much of a goon he is and he can only connect with Denna who seems to have weird man issues herself). His showmanship seems to be off-putting to almost all of the Masters (his show-off lamp project that Kilvin just wants to melt down). He has a need to constantly battle Ambrose for honor even though his friends routinely advise against it. In turn, it almost costs him his life and seems to get him expelled. He even thinks he's a hero for killing the dragon and saving Trebon when he's almost entirely responsible for it's drug-crazed romp through the village. The examples go on and on. It seems to me that any reasonable social action he makes is due to his training to be on stage, not genuine social graces. While his parents seemed to be truly nice and well adjusted people, he could only act like one. In addition to all of this, knowing that Kvothe ultimately ends up being some washed up has-been in hiding who can't even perform simple magic anymore makes me think that Rothfuss wants you to see him as a goony douche. Eventually he's going to have to face real villains like the Chandrian and not common street criminals or Ambrose and it seems that doesn't quite go so well. After living as a hero due to luck and a legend due mostly to exaggerated stories, as an ordinary innkeeper he's struggling with how his life turned out. At least, that's what I'm getting out of it and I'm going to give Rothfuss the benefit of the doubt going into the second book. I had a lot of fun with this one, really enjoyed his writing style and think the trilogy has a lot of potential going forward.
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Dec 29, 2010 19:29
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Just finished the audiobook today (sadly not read in Zap Brannigan's voice, but the narration was overall quite good). My own reaction mirrors a lot of the responses in this thread; I enjoyed the book, but I'm much better able to articulate what I didn't like versus what I did. I really want to believe that Kvothe is an unreliable narrator, but there's not a great deal of evidence to support it, and actually a fair bit against, as other people have mentioned. It's a shame, because thematically the book really set itself up well to explore the idea of legend vs personal mythos vs truth/reality, and squandered it entirely. I grant that the flashback part of the story isn't finished yet, but for a bildungsroman there's precious little character development either. He acquires things (enters the university, gets friends, earns money) but Kvothe in the final chapters doesn't really behave any differently than he would of at the beginning. He still would have been white-knightey, tried to save the town from the dragon, acted the same at the final expulsion hearing, etc at the beginning of the story, because he starts out as such a smarty-pants Mary Sue/Good Guy. It's not that he doesn't make any mistakes, but they're all because of his youthful naivete, and as he is a young character, it's easy for the reader to nod sympathetically and say "Oh, well he wouldn't have known any better". Between those obligatory setbacks however, the plot often feels hollow and devoid of tension as he coasts through conflict after conflict with his superior genius and natural talent. As a parting shot, Denna doesn't work at all as a love interest (and his skin-crawlingly creepy attitude towards her can probably be taken at face value), and Bast comes off as a cringe-inducingly annoying anime sidekick. Despite all this, I still enjoyed the book. While overwraught in places, the quality of the prose was pretty good, and the breaks for the frame narrative did a good job of heightening some of the tension of Kvothe's story while introducing a much more interesting plague of demons plotline. I actually didn't mind the whole "money problems" aspect of Kvothe's; it's not something you commonly see in a fantasy novel, and it's relatable. Finally, while I don't think Rothfuss has some mindbending reveal up his sleeve that will retroactively make Name of the Wind a masterpiece, he still has some room to maneuver with Kvothe's character, and from the hints he's dropped in the book (plus that review of the next one linked a few posts back) it sounds like he's probably going to be going in the right direction. It probably won't be my favorite series of all-time or anything, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and read on. uberkeyzer posted:I totally understand this argument and empathized with it until i read about 20 pages of the transformers 2 thread in Cinema Discusso and saw it trotted out about five million to defend jive-shuckin' robots with TRUCK BALLSs, and realized it can be used to defend the indefensible. Can't resist posting this gem: SuperMechaGodzilla posted:[Armond] White isn't a troll. He very sincerely loves "bad" movies for their ability to troll. This is a very crucial difference.
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Dec 30, 2010 01:06
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Just finished this: - characters are generally unlikable - plot sucks: not much interesting happens - pacing is pretty terrible too - writing's pretty good Overall not worth it but I might pick up book 2 for the Zapp Brannigan voice.
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Jan 7, 2011 21:07
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Pompous Rhombus posted:
I really, really wish that Rothfuss had explored this angle more. I wish that the Chronicler was an actual journalist and had done some research on Kvothe. If he included little author's notes along the lines of: "Spoke to Elodin, doesn't recall Kvothe being an exception student or jumping off a roof or being expelled", it would make the novel so much more compelling. It's just somewhat baffling that no person has any knowledge about Kvothe. If he's such an amazing, world-renown figure, you think the Chronicler would interview other people. Maybe every chapter include a little interview with someone that Kvothe knew in passing or something that can relate the real identity of the character. But, NOPE TOO BUSY WRITING ABOUT CREEPY DEER ANALOGIES
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Jan 8, 2011 19:53
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Does anybody else feel like Rothfuss drew a little TOO heavily from LeGuin's Earthsea? I'm just getting around to reading the latter, and good lord...
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Jan 9, 2011 20:21
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Huh, I read this last year. I thought it was really self-indulgent but fun. I didn't think it would be so polarizing. Kvothe is a big ole fat Gary Stu but I'm hoping the next book will be better.
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Jan 10, 2011 03:58
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I follow Brandon Sanderson on Facebook, and he just got his ARC of Wise Man's Fear in today. Apparently it weighs in at 1100 pages, 100 pages longer than Way of Kings. Jesus Christ.
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Jan 17, 2011 22:21
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Dramatika posted:I follow Brandon Sanderson on Facebook, and he just got his ARC of Wise Man's Fear in today. Apparently it weighs in at 1100 pages, 100 pages longer than Way of Kings. Jesus Christ. Wow, Rothfuss wasn't kidding around about it being longer. Looking forward to getting my copy!
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Jan 17, 2011 22:31
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The next 1.5 months are going to be amazing. Joe Abercrombie comes out with his new book in February, followed up by Rothfuss. I can't wait!
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Jan 18, 2011 02:32
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Hughmoris posted:The next 1.5 months are going to be amazing. Joe Abercrombie comes out with his new book in February, followed up by Rothfuss. I can't wait! If you like Scotty Lynch, the next Locke Lamora book is in february, and there's also two new Malazan books this month/next month. Good early year!
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Jan 18, 2011 03:41
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1100 pages? Well fair enough, I think I'll cut the guy some slack, he's actually been working with all the extra time, at least. quote:Insane mechagodzilla rambling quote:Does anybody else feel like Rothfuss drew a little TOO heavily from LeGuin's Earthsea? I'm just getting around to reading the latter, and good lord...
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Jan 18, 2011 20:24
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A Nice Boy posted:the next Locke Lamora book is in february Uh, how firm is that date? Every "release date" I've seen posted for the next book seems to slip by.
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Jan 20, 2011 14:09
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A Nice Boy posted:the next Locke Lamora book is in february, I'll believe this when I see an actual copy in an actual book store.
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Jan 20, 2011 14:15
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Evfedu posted:I read Earthsea first then Kvothe, that was a real hurdle for the book to jump over. I mean, if you're going to rip off something that good you need to do better than this with it. Was it stated somewhere that he drew from LeGuinn? It's been over a decade since I read A Wizard of Earthsea, but I can't really come up with a parallel. I'm not doubtful per se, honestly curious
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Jan 20, 2011 19:35
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He's called them "a cornerstone of modern fantasy" and has read and loved them, so I don't think anyone would be out of line accusing him of lifting a concept or two from them. Source: http://blog.patrickrothfuss.com/2008/02/ursula-k-le-guin/ EDIT: Wait, what, you can't come up with a parallel? In a two stories about two guys headin' off to Wizard School to become Master Namers?
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Jan 20, 2011 20:28
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reflir posted:I'll believe this when I see an actual copy in an actual book store. Good point, I guess I'm being optimistic. I've received three emails from Amazon in the last couple of weeks...Those "You might want these books!" emails, and all three have had Lamora 3 listed as coming out on Feb 17th. Here's hoping.
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Jan 20, 2011 20:29
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A Nice Boy posted:Good point, I guess I'm being optimistic. I've received three emails from Amazon in the last couple of weeks...Those "You might want these books!" emails, and all three have had Lamora 3 listed as coming out on Feb 17th. Here's hoping. Supposedly he has not even turned in a final manuscript, so keep hoping:(
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Jan 20, 2011 23:02
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Eunabomber posted:Supposedly he has not even turned in a final manuscript, so keep hoping:( Aww, man, I thought the final had been turned in. drat it.
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Jan 20, 2011 23:19
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I wish it wasn't virtually impossible to get any kind of up-to-date news about Lynch's next book. Edit: Apparently he turned in a draft early last year so there's at least a chance that the February release date is real, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Ornamented Death fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Jan 21, 2011 |
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Jan 21, 2011 02:22
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Evfedu posted:EDIT: Wait, what, you can't come up with a parallel? In a two stories about two guys headin' off to Wizard School to become Master Namers? Yeah, I mean, brash kid, has lots of natural but kinda wild talent, heads off to a school of wizardry to learn naming, there are lots of masters and they are all known by the type of wizardry they specialize in, he has a rivalry with a snooty rich kid, etc. Although it seems that Ged is a little better at growing up after getting his comeuppances
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Jan 21, 2011 02:35
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Eunabomber posted:Supposedly he has not even turned in a final manuscript, so keep hoping:( Where did you hear this? I've heard several times that he turned it in a long time ago. Also, if he hadn't even turned IN the final manuscript, I find it highly unlikely Amazon would be listing a release date about a month away. EDIT: Meh, internet information seems to back up it not being out anytime soon. Sigh. A Nice Boy fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Jan 21, 2011 |
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Jan 21, 2011 02:45
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A Nice Boy posted:Good point, I guess I'm being optimistic. I've received three emails from Amazon in the last couple of weeks...Those "You might want these books!" emails, and all three have had Lamora 3 listed as coming out on Feb 17th. Here's hoping. A bit off topic, but I have the first Locke Lamora book, but haven't started it yet due to fear of a GRRM type situation... How pissed off am I going to be if I start reading the series?
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Jan 21, 2011 15:42
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Dramatika posted:A bit off topic, but I have the first Locke Lamora book, but haven't started it yet due to fear of a GRRM type situation... How pissed off am I going to be if I start reading the series? The second book ends on a pretty big cliffhanger.
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Jan 21, 2011 15:56
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Ornamented Death posted:The second book ends on a pretty big cliffhanger. Both books are well worth a read though, as long as you do not mind constant flashbacks and a bit of purple prose. And I must say the way they deal with the Bondsmagi at the end of the first book is awesome
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Jan 21, 2011 16:12
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