Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
Redfont
Feb 9, 2010

Little Mac(kerel)

Ria posted:

Well, "Bout" is an entire game. What you're looking for is "jam."

Oh yeah, sorry, brief lapse in thought. Thanks for the reminder, though. My terminology has been lax this last week for some reason.


overthefalls posted:

Volunteer crews for derby leagues can use you for near anything -- referee and non-referee. On the non-referee: ripping tickets, greeters, merch, set up, clean up, beer garden, etcetera; whatever they can come up with.

Referee wise, I have nonskating officials for:
Timekeeper, 2 penalty trackers, penalty wrangler, penalty board, 2 outside penalty boards, 2 lineup trackers, scoreboard (usually me now), 2 scorekeepers, 3 penalty boxes... ummm.. I know I'm forgetting something... which is bad since I'm getting paperwork ready for tomorrow's bout. We have a deep enough ref crew that we can cover these plus the off-skate, but last year they were almost all volunteer.

There's always something to do as a volunteer at a derby bout.

Excellent. That makes sense, I didn't comprehend that it would be volunteers doing all that stuff, for some reason, I guess I assumed it was the roller rink that set some of that up, or something. That's reassuring, though, at least there will be plenty of things for me to help out with. Thanks for the advice.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

scorpiobean
Dec 22, 2004

I'll have one sugar coma drink, please.

Redfont posted:

Sweet, thanks for the links. There's supposed to be a local match here tomorrow, I'm planning on trying to drag my family out to watch it, at least my brother who's on board, as long as the baby doesn't decide she wants to be difficult that day. Hopefully it's as good as the one I stopped by in Florida.

EDIT: What sort of stuff would a team require volunteer-wise other than a ref? I've never been too good with recognizing rule-breaking, but I'm sure I'd pick it up over time. In any case, what sort of stuff might I be able to do to help a team during the time I'm learning all the rules and how to recognize penalties and the like? (I forgot about Wednesday so I'm going to be finding out this Saturday instead, but I figured I'd ask.)

Also just for clarification, both jammers can score points during the bout, the lead jammer can just call off the bout early if she wants, right? Some of the rules for roller derby seem so complicated when I'm just looking at them on paper.


Oops, I see you just responded to people, but I was gonna say that for a ref in training, being a nonskating official would probably be the best thing for you to get into before you start actually reffing. overthefalls just listed a bunch of NSO positions, but the nice thing about those positions is that they're usually pretty easy to learn and do even by people who don't skate and it'll keep you pretty close to the action so you can see how the refs work and how they call and so on. I'm not a ref myself so I don't know for sure but for you as a ref in training, I'd say you should particularly look to do penalty tracking. But also as overthefalls said, there should be plenty to volunteer for at a bout in general. :)

Oodles of Wootles
Nov 8, 2008

safe
Went to my first bout this weekend and had a blast. Definitely going to be going to some more in the future. A friend of mine is on the Grand Prix Madonnas of the Detroit Derby Girls. They managed to draw 2800+ people to the Cobo Center!

Redfont
Feb 9, 2010

Little Mac(kerel)

scorpiobean posted:

Oops, I see you just responded to people, but I was gonna say that for a ref in training, being a nonskating official would probably be the best thing for you to get into before you start actually reffing. overthefalls just listed a bunch of NSO positions, but the nice thing about those positions is that they're usually pretty easy to learn and do even by people who don't skate and it'll keep you pretty close to the action so you can see how the refs work and how they call and so on. I'm not a ref myself so I don't know for sure but for you as a ref in training, I'd say you should particularly look to do penalty tracking. But also as overthefalls said, there should be plenty to volunteer for at a bout in general. :)

Penalty tracking would definitely be the thing I'd want to brush up on the most before I tried reffing. The thing that seems like it would be the most difficult for me is trying to not only skate around the track to keep up with the skaters, but also trying to watch out for penalties in the hectic pack. I'll have to keep going through the rules to try to get more familiar with them. I've been through them once or twice, but there are so drat many. It would be worth it, though, roller derby is a sport I'd really like to get more involved in.

The bout I went to last night was pretty packed. It wasn't quite as exciting as the one in Florida, but that might have just been because it was my first. It was a drat good game, though. I'm looking forward to helping the team out.

EDIT: Also, thanks again for the info/advice so far. This thread has been the source of a lot of valuable and/or helpful information for me.

Spookydonut
Sep 13, 2010

"Hello alien thoughtbeasts! We murder children!"
~our children?~
"Not recently, no!"
~we cool bro~

Aericina posted:

I'm not sure I understand your example. The way you worded it sounds like:
skater 1 skates in front of skater 2 and establishes position
skater 2 hits skater 1 in the back
skater 1 falls
skater 2 no penalty.

I don't know a ref in the NC region that would not call at least a penalty on skater 2 for a major back block. Now, depending on what is going on with the pack, skater 1 could be liable for a major penalty for positional blocking if there is a no pack situation or they are out of play. Also at play is if skater 1 falls small or ends up tripping skater 2 or others.

Nope.
If skater 1 gets in front of skater 2 and establishes position that would be a penalty.
But if she gets in front of skater 2 at the last moment then there would be no penalty. The timing is quite important.
The state of the pack has nothing to do with this. And yes you're correct, if skater 1 doesn't fall small she can draw low blocking penalties.

I recently attended a ref camp with Rev. Riot and had all this reinforced through about a half dozen visual examples. It was great spending a weekend with other refs and just talking/doing DERBY the entire time.
Got to see VRDL (first Australian WFTDA Apprentice league yay!) use tactical slow derby during the 4 hours of scrimmaging. My league has been trying to use slow derby for a while now but they're not very effective at it.

Spookydonut
Sep 13, 2010

"Hello alien thoughtbeasts! We murder children!"
~our children?~
"Not recently, no!"
~we cool bro~

Redfont posted:

Penalty tracking would definitely be the thing I'd want to brush up on the most before I tried reffing. The thing that seems like it would be the most difficult for me is trying to not only skate around the track to keep up with the skaters, but also trying to watch out for penalties in the hectic pack. I'll have to keep going through the rules to try to get more familiar with them. I've been through them once or twice, but there are so drat many. It would be worth it, though, roller derby is a sport I'd really like to get more involved in.

The bout I went to last night was pretty packed. It wasn't quite as exciting as the one in Florida, but that might have just been because it was my first. It was a drat good game, though. I'm looking forward to helping the team out.

EDIT: Also, thanks again for the info/advice so far. This thread has been the source of a lot of valuable and/or helpful information for me.

Most mature leagues will have their new refs NSO for a while before they get to ref one on skates. It's great because it helps them understand the officiating crew is a team, and improves their communication. Penalty tracking is often something done by the more experienced NSOs as it is quite a vital and complex job. Having a single penalty tracker is becoming more and more popular, which makes having an experienced person doing the job even more important.

As for reffing, never underestimate the importance of skating ability.
Don't stress about trying to get every penalty, watching the pack you've got 3 refs, and they work as a team. Positioning and communication make it a much easier job. The inside refs usually position back and front, each watches 5 skaters so theres an overlap. On the outside they're watching the players on the outside, especially jammers passing on the outside.

To supplement your reading of the rules I'd recommend Zebra Huddle. Once you're a skating referee you can get verified (I'm currently the referee verifier) and given access to the referee-only sections.

Aericina
Mar 3, 2005

Meez, please.

Spookydonut posted:

Nope.
If skater 1 gets in front of skater 2 and establishes position that would be a penalty.
But if she gets in front of skater 2 at the last moment then there would be no penalty. The timing is quite important.
The state of the pack has nothing to do with this. And yes you're correct, if skater 1 doesn't fall small she can draw low blocking penalties.

I recently attended a ref camp with Rev. Riot and had all this reinforced through about a half dozen visual examples. It was great spending a weekend with other refs and just talking/doing DERBY the entire time.
Got to see VRDL (first Australian WFTDA Apprentice league yay!) use tactical slow derby during the 4 hours of scrimmaging. My league has been trying to use slow derby for a while now but they're not very effective at it.

If Riot explained it then I'll take your word for it, but I'm having trouble visualizing it. I'll have to ask Grand Ref Otto and JoeXCore about it sometime.

Speaking of Zebra Huddle, I'm currently a member on the board but haven't logged on in awhile. Since I'm a skater now I know that I'm not supposed to have access to it. Is there a self ban somewhere or do I need to let Major Wood know to kick me off?

Spookydonut
Sep 13, 2010

"Hello alien thoughtbeasts! We murder children!"
~our children?~
"Not recently, no!"
~we cool bro~

Aericina posted:

If Riot explained it then I'll take your word for it, but I'm having trouble visualizing it. I'll have to ask Grand Ref Otto and JoeXCore about it sometime.

Yes! Ask them questions! Never not be asking refs questions about the rules.

quote:

Speaking of Zebra Huddle, I'm currently a member on the board but haven't logged on in awhile. Since I'm a skater now I know that I'm not supposed to have access to it. Is there a self ban somewhere or do I need to let Major Wood know to kick me off?

As a skater you're encouraged to read it. The things you shouldn't be learning aren't avaliable to you. Unless they are, in which case send me a pm and I'll get that sorted out.

Redfont
Feb 9, 2010

Little Mac(kerel)

Spookydonut posted:

Zebra Huddle.

Very interesting, I like the sound of that. I'll check it out and get it set up.

Just out of curiosity, might I ask what sort of things there are that skaters aren't supposed to be learning? Sort of vaguely in general, I'd imagine.

WindyMan
Mar 21, 2002

Respect the power of the wind

Redfont posted:

Just out of curiosity, might I ask what sort of things there are that skaters aren't supposed to be learning? Sort of vaguely in general, I'd imagine.

Oddly enough, they shouldn't be learning how to walk, run, or jump (without skates on). Our coach at Sugartown is a professional skater--he skated on Rollerjam, did skate-stunts in movies and commercials and has a coach chararacter in Whip It based on him--and he says that how we move without skates on is completely counter-intuitive to how we need to move with skates on. Long story short, everything you do during training or not should be done with skates on, if you can help it.

JoshTheStampede
Sep 8, 2004

come at me bro

WindyMan posted:

Oddly enough, they shouldn't be learning how to walk, run, or jump (without skates on). Our coach at Sugartown is a professional skater--he skated on Rollerjam, did skate-stunts in movies and commercials and has a coach chararacter in Whip It based on him--and he says that how we move without skates on is completely counter-intuitive to how we need to move with skates on. Long story short, everything you do during training or not should be done with skates on, if you can help it.

I don't think that was what he was asking. The implication was that there are things on ZebraHuddle that skaters (as opposed to refs) should not be reading for some reason, and he was wondering what sorts of things those might be. Come to mention it, I'm pretty curious about this myself.

Aericina
Mar 3, 2005

Meez, please.

Spookydonut posted:

Yes! Ask them questions! Never not be asking refs questions about the rules.

Well, as a ref for 3.5 seasons, I kind of already know the rules back and forth, but this scenario you've described is not making a lick of sense, so I have no problem getting more insight.

Spookydonut posted:

As a skater you're encouraged to read it. The things you shouldn't be learning aren't avaliable to you. Unless they are, in which case send me a pm and I'll get that sorted out.

I can't tell if I was verified or not, but it's looking like I can't see a "Ref's Only" part of the board.

Redfont
Feb 9, 2010

Little Mac(kerel)
Though I'm not sure if that's exactly it or not (after reading Dominion's post), I can see how that might be something that comes up on the boards and how skaters might want to try it out. In any case, that's actually a pretty interesting concept in itself.

Spookydonut
Sep 13, 2010

"Hello alien thoughtbeasts! We murder children!"
~our children?~
"Not recently, no!"
~we cool bro~
Things that refs (should) discuss that skaters shouldn't really be privy to:

- Ethics. This coveres a lot of different things.
- Strategy. Wether it's a hypothetical or actual strategy, mostly discussion focuses on how the rules apply to it.
- Other. Things like "What part do refs play in the running of your league?"

JoshTheStampede
Sep 8, 2004

come at me bro

Spookydonut posted:

Things that refs (should) discuss that skaters shouldn't really be privy to:

- Ethics. This coveres a lot of different things.
- Strategy. Wether it's a hypothetical or actual strategy, mostly discussion focuses on how the rules apply to it.
- Other. Things like "What part do refs play in the running of your league?"

I don't really see why skaters shouldn't be privy to any of these discussions. Knowing and understanding how their strategy, or strategy they may be thinking about or discussing, applies to the rules and how refs tend to interpret those rules, is pretty important. It's important for skaters to know WHY Action A draws a backblock while Action B is a trip instead, or why this strategy results in the pivot getting a destroying the pack or a clockwise block or whatever, especially as more complicated pack control strategies emerge and look illegal or confusing at first.

Similarly ref ethics is an issue that affects everyone in the sport, and mind-boggling stuff happens like Amanda Jamitinya's boyfriend being her jam ref during the finals at Nationals that maybe if everyone discussed stuff like that it wouldn't happen.

I can certainly see how certain conversations or threads shoudln't be read by PARTICULAR skaters (like, say, a thread about the AmJam situation I just mentioned is probably better off without her reading it), but I really cannot think of any topic about the sport that needs to be kept secret from skaters in general.

Aericina
Mar 3, 2005

Meez, please.

Dominion posted:

I don't really see why skaters shouldn't be privy to any of these discussions. Knowing and understanding how their strategy, or strategy they may be thinking about or discussing, applies to the rules and how refs tend to interpret those rules, is pretty important. It's important for skaters to know WHY Action A draws a backblock while Action B is a trip instead, or why this strategy results in the pivot getting a destroying the pack or a clockwise block or whatever, especially as more complicated pack control strategies emerge and look illegal or confusing at first.

I think the point here is so that you don't end up coaching the skaters. You don't want to get to the point of where you're telling skaters to do certain things because it's skirts a certain rule. Our league will set up a "rules chat" with the refs where we spend an hour or more talking to the skaters about things they have questions on, why they can or can't do things, etc. There are a lot of times where a skater will say, "If we do x and y, can we make z happen?" and we'll just say, "Well this is what the rules say, and you have to work within the rules." It would be a bit unethical to say, "You should do a and b because it'll get you c instead of doing x and y."

Spookydonut
Sep 13, 2010

"Hello alien thoughtbeasts! We murder children!"
~our children?~
"Not recently, no!"
~we cool bro~

Dominion posted:

I don't really see why skaters shouldn't be privy to any of these discussions. Knowing and understanding how their strategy, or strategy they may be thinking about or discussing, applies to the rules and how refs tend to interpret those rules, is pretty important. It's important for skaters to know WHY Action A draws a backblock while Action B is a trip instead, or why this strategy results in the pivot getting a destroying the pack or a clockwise block or whatever, especially as more complicated pack control strategies emerge and look illegal or confusing at first.

So league ABC comes up with strategy DEF, and referee XYZ jumps online after seeing it and starts describing it in detail. You'd be okay with everyone being spoon-fed that strategy, along with exactly how the rules apply?
I wouldn't, and this is an opinion shared by almost every ref I know of.
If the skaters wan't to figure it out for themselves, that's fine. Refs aren't coaches, as Aericina mentioned.

Dominion posted:

Similarly ref ethics is an issue that affects everyone in the sport, and mind-boggling stuff happens like Amanda Jamitinya's boyfriend being her jam ref during the finals at Nationals that maybe if everyone discussed stuff like that it wouldn't happen.

I'd like to specifically address this as something that shouldn't have been an issue. If they weren't in a relationship I wouldn't have expected to see him do anything different. You're saying that because of the relationship he won't do his job, and that's unfair to him and to every other referee in the sport.

JoshTheStampede
Sep 8, 2004

come at me bro

Spookydonut" posted:

So league ABC comes up with strategy DEF, and referee XYZ jumps online after seeing it and starts describing it in detail. You'd be okay with everyone being spoon-fed that strategy, along with exactly how the rules apply?
I wouldn't, and this is an opinion shared by almost every ref I know of.
If the skaters wan't to figure it out for themselves, that's fine. Refs aren't coaches, as Aericina mentioned.

This is a good point, actually, I stand corrected.

Spookydonut posted:


I'd like to specifically address this as something that shouldn't have been an issue. If they weren't in a relationship I wouldn't have expected to see him do anything different. You're saying that because of the relationship he won't do his job, and that's unfair to him and to every other referee in the sport.

No, I'm not saying he reffed badly or anything. I watched the game and there was no bad reffing or really questionable calls, and I didn't know anything about the situation until afterwards.

But it's a conflict of interest and he should not have been reffing that game, especially jam reffing, where he has to make subjective calls which is it very hard to be unbiased about when you're calling them on your girlfriend in a national championship game. It's not like there was a shortage of refs at the time - It was the only game going on and there were multiple ref crews at the event.

He reffed well and that's commendable, but he shouldn't have even been in that position to begin with. The correct ethical move would have been to remove himself from that bout, thus removing all doubt in people's minds about whether or not their relationship may have affected the game. It was unprofessional for him to ref that game, and if derby is going to continue to grow into a "real" respected sport, it needs to be officiated with some professionalism.

Oodles of Wootles
Nov 8, 2008

safe

Dominion posted:

if derby is going to continue to grow into a "real" respected sport, it needs to be officiated with some professionalism.
This is not a requirement for any sport.

JoshTheStampede
Sep 8, 2004

come at me bro

Oodles of Wootles posted:

This is not a requirement for any sport.

Are you kidding? Rock solid, trusted officiating is absolutely crucial to turning a game into a respected sport.

Spookydonut
Sep 13, 2010

"Hello alien thoughtbeasts! We murder children!"
~our children?~
"Not recently, no!"
~we cool bro~

Dominion posted:

No, I'm not saying he reffed badly or anything. I watched the game and there was no bad reffing or really questionable calls, and I didn't know anything about the situation until afterwards.

But it's a conflict of interest and he should not have been reffing that game, especially jam reffing, where he has to make subjective calls which is it very hard to be unbiased about when you're calling them on your girlfriend in a national championship game. It's not like there was a shortage of refs at the time - It was the only game going on and there were multiple ref crews at the event.

He reffed well and that's commendable, but he shouldn't have even been in that position to begin with. The correct ethical move would have been to remove himself from that bout, thus removing all doubt in people's minds about whether or not their relationship may have affected the game. It was unprofessional for him to ref that game, and if derby is going to continue to grow into a "real" respected sport, it needs to be officiated with some professionalism.

You're still making the same point, and it's insulting to every referee and official in our sport.
You're also questioning the decision of the tournament head refs in rostering him for that game. If they didn't think it would be an issue, they wouldn't have rostered him for that game.
If you ask WFTDA about this, I guarentee they'll stand by the decision of the tournament head refs.

JoshTheStampede
Sep 8, 2004

come at me bro

Spookydonut posted:

You're still making the same point, and it's insulting to every referee and official in our sport.
You're also questioning the decision of the tournament head refs in rostering him for that game. If they didn't think it would be an issue, they wouldn't have rostered him for that game.
If you ask WFTDA about this, I guarentee they'll stand by the decision of the tournament head refs.

I know they would, and I am pretty sure they have. I'm not the first person to have an issue with this, it was a big deal on DNN and various other derby blogs when it came out as news. I do think it was a bad decision to roster him for that game, assuming everyone involved knew about the relationship.

I don't think it's insulting to referees in any way to expect them to act professionally and ethically with regards to possible conflicts of interest in the sport. Quite the opposite, I think it's insulting to the skaters and the fans to so flippantly not care about it, and to refuse to acknowledge that a conflict of interest could ever exist. Refs are human beings, and saying "You really shouldn't jam ref for your wife/girlfriend" is a completely reasonable policy to have to avoid it ever becoming a really contentious issue.

We're not talking about penalty trackers or scoreboard operators here, people who do a job that involves no serious judgement calls. We're talking about pack and jam refs, who make hundreds or thousands of small decisions that decide games, and who are not robots. To say that every ref is perfectly capable of making the same hundred snap decisions when it's their wife on the jam line as opposed to some girl they don't know is ludicrous. Human beings are not wired that way and that's why we have conflict of interest guidelines in other fields.

It wasn't an issue because it didn't really come up in that game, but what if it had? What if Tootie Tinwhistle had made an innocent but wrong call in Rocky/AmJam's favor and it cost Oly the game? He would then have to defend his decision to ref that bout, and convince people he didn't cheat, and it hurts the respect for the officiating crews and bodies and it damages the legitimacy of the sport when a national championship game even has a possibility of something like that happening.

None of this would ever be even possible if he had just said "Hey guys, I shouldn't ref this one". It's just so much cleaner and easier to avoid that situation ever happening than it is to try to clean it up when it eventually happens.

Derbytron says it better than me here: http://allknowingderbytron.blogspot.com/2010/11/simply-put-boyfriendrefs-are-bad-for.html

JoshTheStampede fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Feb 3, 2011

WindyMan
Mar 21, 2002

Respect the power of the wind

Spookydonut posted:

You're also questioning the decision of the tournament head refs in rostering him for that game. If they didn't think it would be an issue, they wouldn't have rostered him for that game.

You are making the assumption that the WFTDA knew about their personal relationship. When skaters and refs alike use their skate names, the person assigning refs to games is more than likely not going to know all the details of relations between skaters or refs or NSOs. They just connect the dots to make sure games are staffed. At least, that's my assumption of how it works.

If anything, they would have known that ref and skater would have been from the same league. While this alone is very unlikely to cause a problem or conflict...

quote:

If you ask WFTDA about this, I guarentee they'll stand by the decision of the tournament head refs.

Of course they will. But you're missing the point entirely.

Referees in any sport, by their definition, must be neutral. This applies in the "call 'em as you see 'em" sense as well as an individual's associations or actions outside of games they call.

Remember Tim Donaghy? He was the NBA official that got caught in a gambling scandal. Long story short, he tried to alter the outcome of games to the benefit of gamblers by not calling them fairly. Obviously, that's a huge conflict of interest. NBA refs are perceived as a shady bunch to begin with, but that just blew the whole thing up.

I bring him up as an extreme example. Obviously, what this guy was doing was bad for officiating and made the league look bad. But where do you draw the line between what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior by a ref?

-A ref who is affiliated with a gambling ring may try to change the outcome to his favor.
-A ref who would benefit from one team winning over another may try to change the outcome.
-A ref who knows someone that would benefit from one team winning over another may try to change the outcome.
-A ref who knows someone on a team that would benefit from one team winning over another may try to change the outcome.

Feel free to fill in other shades of grey between those examples, but surely you can understand why any of those above would be bad for the ref and the league that ref works for. If you can't, where do you draw the line and why would one situation not be worse than the other?

Going back to the "Refgate" incident at Champs, that ref may have well called a perfect game, made no mistakes, and not done anything to compromise his neutrality. Great, good for him. But that's still not the point.

The point is that other people outside of the derby circle who found that out may think, "hey, that ref and that skater are related. Maybe that ref gave that skater a break with calls?"

The "maybe" plants the seed that says that perhaps, just maybe, the officiating isn't 100% fair because of that. From the perspective of an outside viewer, just that they are related could put a 0.01% amount of doubt into their head, and 99.99% fair isn't 100% fair.

Just the fact that people are talking about it at all is proof enough to raise doubt. The only way to prevent this doubt from cropping up in the first place is to prevent it from happening in the future. And if you want to go even further, you can make sure absoultely sure it won't be an issue in this year's Championships (and regionals too, if possible) that all the refs/NSOs from a league can't staff a game that has their team in it, or to pick them last if no other are available. Surely there are enough refs around to ensure that.

fake edit: Plus what Dominion said.

WindyMan fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Feb 3, 2011

JoshTheStampede
Sep 8, 2004

come at me bro

WindyMan posted:

Just the fact that people are talking about it at all is proof enough to raise doubt. The only way to prevent this doubt from cropping up in the first place is to prevent it from happening in the future. And if you want to go even further, you can make sure absoultely sure it won't be an issue in this year's Championships (and regionals too, if possible) that all the refs/NSOs from a league can't staff a game that has their team in it, or to pick them last if no other are available. Surely there are enough refs around to ensure that.

This was part of why it bothered me so much. This was the championship bout, the utter pinnacle of this entire sport. If there is ONE game that needed to be officiated with the utmost respect for the sport and taken seriously, and which had the resources to enact a policy like the one you mention, it was this one.

I get that at home bouts, normal travel bouts, and maybe even at regionals you might simply not have enough refs to go around to make sure no one refs their own team, but nationals didn't have that excuse.
calls.

Oodles of Wootles
Nov 8, 2008

safe

Dominion posted:

Are you kidding? Rock solid, trusted officiating is absolutely crucial to turning a game into a respected sport.

In theory, sure. In practice, not so much. I suppose you should have respected refereeing on the way up, but once the sport has established itself refereeing becomes just another thing for fans to complain about and for the league to overlook.

JoshTheStampede
Sep 8, 2004

come at me bro

Oodles of Wootles posted:

In theory, sure. In practice, not so much. I suppose you should have respected refereeing on the way up, but once the sport has established itself refereeing becomes just another thing for fans to complain about and for the league to overlook.

I disagree. Officiating is always something fans will bitch about, of course. Sports fans are like that; It's in their nature to find some reason their team lost other than "we got beat", and "pssh, loving refs" will often get you less argument than other statements to that effect, so its easy.

But really, no football fan literally thinks that the refs are paid off, or even that they are by and large incompetent - they trust that the refs are the best refs the league could get, and that they are as unbiased and free from conflict of interest as possible. The same goes for every other major sport. There's nothing about derby that makes it free from that requirement.

The rules of the game need to be clear, understandable, and shown to be enforced and handled fairly and without bias whenever possible. Removal of the doubt that WindyMan mentioned is an important part of that, and it leads to the fanbase taking the game more seriously. It is what turns games into sports.

WindyMan
Mar 21, 2002

Respect the power of the wind

Dominion posted:

I get that at home bouts, normal travel bouts, and maybe even at regionals you might simply not have enough refs to go around to make sure no one refs their own team, but nationals didn't have that excuse.

This is the other side of the argument. Refs who call games for their home league, as neutral as they are, still have at least some connection to their home league. They do games between two local home teams, and by doing a good job they are helping their league, which is ultimately beneficial to everyone involved.

(This still doesn't change the fact that if a league ref has a relationship with someone on one of a league's local teams, that ref shouldn't call games featuring that team, if at all possible, to ensure fairness and transparency for all involved.)

Although refs are good at being neutral, when it comes to a national tournament or league, there needs to be zero chance at someone calling out a conflict of interest. Refs for the pro sports leagues are contracted part-timers (NFL) or separetely unionized (NHL, MLB) so they have no reason to side with any team, just do the best job they can to keep it fair. Because derby is still a regional game, you're going to get minor conflicts like Refgate, but they can be addressed by changing policies in the future.

Ria
Sep 21, 2003

yeah, i have no idea either

WindyMan posted:

You are making the assumption that the WFTDA knew about their personal relationship. When skaters and refs alike use their skate names, the person assigning refs to games is more than likely not going to know all the details of relations between skaters or refs or NSOs. They just connect the dots to make sure games are staffed. At least, that's my assumption of how it works.

If anything, they would have known that ref and skater would have been from the same league. While this alone is very unlikely to cause a problem or conflict...


Of course they will. But you're missing the point entirely.

Referees in any sport, by their definition, must be neutral. This applies in the "call 'em as you see 'em" sense as well as an individual's associations or actions outside of games they call.

Remember Tim Donaghy? He was the NBA official that got caught in a gambling scandal. Long story short, he tried to alter the outcome of games to the benefit of gamblers by not calling them fairly. Obviously, that's a huge conflict of interest. NBA refs are perceived as a shady bunch to begin with, but that just blew the whole thing up.

I bring him up as an extreme example. Obviously, what this guy was doing was bad for officiating and made the league look bad. But where do you draw the line between what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior by a ref?

-A ref who is affiliated with a gambling ring may try to change the outcome to his favor.
-A ref who would benefit from one team winning over another may try to change the outcome.
-A ref who knows someone that would benefit from one team winning over another may try to change the outcome.
-A ref who knows someone on a team that would benefit from one team winning over another may try to change the outcome.

Feel free to fill in other shades of grey between those examples, but surely you can understand why any of those above would be bad for the ref and the league that ref works for. If you can't, where do you draw the line and why would one situation not be worse than the other?

Going back to the "Refgate" incident at Champs, that ref may have well called a perfect game, made no mistakes, and not done anything to compromise his neutrality. Great, good for him. But that's still not the point.

The point is that other people outside of the derby circle who found that out may think, "hey, that ref and that skater are related. Maybe that ref gave that skater a break with calls?"

The "maybe" plants the seed that says that perhaps, just maybe, the officiating isn't 100% fair because of that. From the perspective of an outside viewer, just that they are related could put a 0.01% amount of doubt into their head, and 99.99% fair isn't 100% fair.

Just the fact that people are talking about it at all is proof enough to raise doubt. The only way to prevent this doubt from cropping up in the first place is to prevent it from happening in the future. And if you want to go even further, you can make sure absoultely sure it won't be an issue in this year's Championships (and regionals too, if possible) that all the refs/NSOs from a league can't staff a game that has their team in it, or to pick them last if no other are available. Surely there are enough refs around to ensure that.

fake edit: Plus what Dominion said.

Uhm, as far as I know most refs are still volunteers. Until you start paying them and they have an "area of reffing" that is a span of space where they travel around and do derby reffing, you're really not going to find the "completely neutral" stance you are seeing.

Yes, it's becoming a business and a respected sport, but that doesn't change the fact that most of the people out there wearing the stripes are just doing it for the love of the game and, yes, are probably connected to one of the leagues or another. It's just the way this nomad of a sport is.

One of these days, maybe, WFTDA will be up there with other sports and referees will have that kind of ability and freedom, but until then, you may just be looking at an idealistic point of view that isn't going to happen right away. And you need to be prepared to accept that.

That being said, I have never once met a ref that wouldn't call it just as hard on their own girls as on the opposing team. Every one that I've met (and I've met dozens at this point) are there for the love of the game and to try to call it fairly. There isn't money exchanging hands (that I've ever heard of) and there isn't even really even any monetary of physical compensation for winning the tournaments. Just bragging rights and a top spot on the national rankings.

WindyMan
Mar 21, 2002

Respect the power of the wind
Right, naturally no one is paying off a roller derby ref. But the point I made there was if there is any kind of connection between a referee and a player, an outsider could state that maybe that ref is trying to change the game in favor of that player (regardless of the reason) because of their connection.

It's understandably not that big of a deal since everything is volunteer-run and it's still a grassroots sport, roller derby. But Dominion summed it up perfectly:

Dominion posted:

The rules of the game need to be clear, understandable, and shown to be enforced and handled fairly and without bias whenever possible. Removal of the doubt is an important part of that, and it leads to the fanbase taking the game more seriously. It is what turns games into sports.

Derby is eventually going to cross that bridge. So why not do something about it now?

JoshTheStampede
Sep 8, 2004

come at me bro

Ria posted:



That being said, I have never once met a ref that wouldn't call it just as hard on their own girls as on the opposing team. Every one that I've met (and I've met dozens at this point) are there for the love of the game and to try to call it fairly. There isn't money exchanging hands (that I've ever heard of) and there isn't even really even any monetary of physical compensation for winning the tournaments. Just bragging rights and a top spot on the national rankings.

Most refs I know effectively DO have an "area of reffing" that they travel and ref in, because there's a lot of smaller leagues around here that need refs.

I'm not saying that any ref would intentionally cheat. I'm saying that it's practically impossible to be unbiased about someone you love, when making hundreds of decisions in a fast-paced game that is already difficult to officiate, and removing that doubt is easier than the potential repercussions of not removing it.

If anything, many refs would overcompensate out of a desire to not show favoritism and would wind up being HARDER on their SO than on some other random skater. That's STILL a bad thing.

Also, I get that they are all volunteers, but that is not an excuse for the sport as a whole to accept either sub-par officiating or lax officiating policies. The amount of certifications refs are required to go through sort of means the "but they can't be expected to be held to standards because they are volunteers" argument doesn't hold water. We already hold them to standards, and as you said, they do this because they love it. I respect that a great deal, but you can't build a sport on the honor system.

Aericina posted:

edit: Dominion you're a ninja.

E: sorry. :)

JoshTheStampede fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Feb 3, 2011

Aericina
Mar 3, 2005

Meez, please.

Ria posted:

Uhm, as far as I know most refs are still volunteers. Until you start paying them and they have an "area of reffing" that is a span of space where they travel around and do derby reffing, you're really not going to find the "completely neutral" stance you are seeing.

...

That being said, I have never once met a ref that wouldn't call it just as hard on their own girls as on the opposing team. Every one that I've met (and I've met dozens at this point) are there for the love of the game and to try to call it fairly. There isn't money exchanging hands (that I've ever heard of) and there isn't even really even any monetary of physical compensation for winning the tournaments. Just bragging rights and a top spot on the national rankings.

Not true in a couple of different ways.
I don't know how other regions do it, or even other leagues, but Naptown only uses head refs from other leagues. We'll only use 2 home town refs per bout, 1 as jam ref and another as IPR or OPR. Two can come from the visiting team, and aside from the Head Ref, the other two must be visiting refs from other leagues. JR's never officiate their home team the during the second half.

I had a travel radius of about 200 miles where I would guest ref for other leagues, and part of our code of conduct for Naptown refs stated that we had to have attendance at 60% of practices and something that broke down to 2 away visiting ref spots per month, or we were ineligible to ref at home. I never got "paid" when I would guest ref for another league, but a lot of leagues provide a travel stipend, a gift bag of a new whistle, logo gear and granola bar or a free t-shirt. Certain leagues actually require that you fill out a W-4 if you receive cash for travel. I never saw it as being paid, but as an appreciation for using your gas and time to help someone else out.

edit: Dominion you're a ninja.

Bananananana
Feb 10, 2009
Woah this is a neat thread, I had always thought roller derby was like pro wrestling and it was all corny acting. Something that's always bothered me though is why roller derby players use roller skates instead of inline skates, they seem so clunky and unmaneuverable. I'm assuming inline skates are against the rules, but why? They seem so much more fun.

WindyMan
Mar 21, 2002

Respect the power of the wind

Bananananana posted:

Woah this is a neat thread, I had always thought roller derby was like pro wrestling and it was all corny acting. Something that's always bothered me though is why roller derby players use roller skates instead of inline skates, they seem so clunky and unmaneuverable. I'm assuming inline skates are against the rules, but why? They seem so much more fun.

Anyone who grows up roller skating generally does it on quad skates, so for consistency and fairness they're mandated as the only type of skate derby players play on nowadays.

Although I agree with you that inlines are better than quads. I've skated on inlines for years and only recently got quads because I need to learn how to use them for playing derby. I've always wondered why they just don't let people use whatever skates they want to, as long as they're safe to use.

Ria
Sep 21, 2003

yeah, i have no idea either

Dominion posted:

Most refs I know effectively DO have an "area of reffing" that they travel and ref in, because there's a lot of smaller leagues around here that need refs.

I'm not saying that any ref would intentionally cheat. I'm saying that it's practically impossible to be unbiased about someone you love, when making hundreds of decisions in a fast-paced game that is already difficult to officiate, and removing that doubt is easier than the potential repercussions of not removing it.

If anything, many refs would overcompensate out of a desire to not show favoritism and would wind up being HARDER on their SO than on some other random skater. That's STILL a bad thing.

Also, I get that they are all volunteers, but that is not an excuse for the sport as a whole to accept either sub-par officiating or lax officiating policies. The amount of certifications refs are required to go through sort of means the "but they can't be expected to be held to standards because they are volunteers" argument doesn't hold water. We already hold them to standards, and as you said, they do this because they love it. I respect that a great deal, but you can't build a sport on the honor system.


E: sorry. :)

Re: Area of reffing--Yeah, that's true. But it's not codified, if that makes any sense. There are not specific regions where people are actually deployed. I go around and do NSO stuff at different leagues for games that have nothing to do with my home league but that doesn't mean that I've been told to. I might have just as much a connection with someone on that other league as I do with my own league. So it doesn't mean that I would be completely free of bias there.

Re: Favoritism/cheating--yeah, that's understandable. And those people tend to be weeded out by their own reffing staff. And that usually happens when someone ends up taking it wayyyy too seriously for their own good in this. Maybe that's just my opinion. But "policing your own" has happened a lot in the almost-4 years that I've been doing this, that I've seen.

Re: Standards--I'm not making any arguments about having standards. I am completely FOR standards, both of ethics, and of officiation itself. But I'm just saying that at this stage of the game, it might be a little much to ask for. Certification is one thing, but removing "all bias" out of the game at this stage... I'm not sure it's possible. I'm looking for that day, though. I'm not sure we're arguing--I'm just calling it how I'm seeing it at the moment.

Aericina posted:

Not true in a couple of different ways.
I don't know how other regions do it, or even other leagues, but Naptown only uses head refs from other leagues. We'll only use 2 home town refs per bout, 1 as jam ref and another as IPR or OPR. Two can come from the visiting team, and aside from the Head Ref, the other two must be visiting refs from other leagues. JR's never officiate their home team the during the second half.

I had a travel radius of about 200 miles where I would guest ref for other leagues, and part of our code of conduct for Naptown refs stated that we had to have attendance at 60% of practices and something that broke down to 2 away visiting ref spots per month, or we were ineligible to ref at home. I never got "paid" when I would guest ref for another league, but a lot of leagues provide a travel stipend, a gift bag of a new whistle, logo gear and granola bar or a free t-shirt. Certain leagues actually require that you fill out a W-4 if you receive cash for travel. I never saw it as being paid, but as an appreciation for using your gas and time to help someone else out.

edit: Dominion you're a ninja.

We keep one head ref for the entire game just for continuity's sake. If someone else has a head ref we have no problem yielding the floor. We always keep at least one neutral jam ref (Whether their team or another local ref). Yadda, yadda. We try very hard to keep at least the vision of propriety when it comes to this.

The problem ends up coming when we get visiting leagues that bring, oh, say, one ref. When they said they would bring five. OR, when they have no refs whatsoever. I don't really know. Or when their refs don't know anything. Not that that's a majority of the time (although it might be, I don't really care as a jam timer). But we've gotten borrowed refs from leagues two or three hours away just to try to get things "fair." It may not always be possible.

I'm just commenting on the way it is right now, not necessarily the way it should be. If that makes any sense.

edit:trying for clarification.

Ria fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Feb 3, 2011

JoshTheStampede
Sep 8, 2004

come at me bro

Bananananana posted:

Woah this is a neat thread, I had always thought roller derby was like pro wrestling and it was all corny acting.

It was exactly that, in the 70s.

carticket
Jun 28, 2005

white and gold.

So, I was directed here by scorpiobean from the Psych thread in TV/IV (of all places). I just started reffing with NHRD and figured I'd check in. We seem to be short on carry over of skating refs from last year, so for our first scrimmage of the season, and the third bout I've seen, I was one of the inside pack refs.

Holy hell, that is chaos on wheels. I've been studying the rules, but god drat, there's so much going on at once.

Earlier this week my name was officially submitted to twoevils: Vincent Van GoToTheBox.

So, anyway, I scanned the thread for NHRD people and didn't come across any that I recognized.

That is all.

Aericina
Mar 3, 2005

Meez, please.

Ria posted:

The problem ends up coming when we get visiting leagues that bring, oh, say, one ref. When they said they would bring five. OR, when they have no refs whatsoever. I don't really know. Or when their refs don't know anything. Not that that's a majority of the time (although it might be, I don't really care as a jam timer). But we've gotten borrowed refs from leagues two or three hours away just to try to get things "fair." It may not always be possible.

This actually recently came up in our committee. What we've tried to do is gauge how the visiting refs seem on seriousness of bringing their crew. We have a good contract of 5 people show up just to watch anyway, but we try to put them on notice when we feel that there may be a problem. The head ref for our league, Grand Ref Otto, is amazing at this and we have never run into an issue. Our very first bout we had one ref come when he insisted on bringing several, and he ended up bowing out 15 minutes into the first half due to an "injury". GRO brought a very competent JR from Evansville to OPR and fill in if necessary (the only other option was to bring me in from OPR which would make two hometown refs at JR), and what do you know.

Just for the record I love what this thread has become.

For all you newbies out there who are volunteering or new refs, you should like "Roller Derby Rule of the Day" on Facebook. This was posted a bit ago:

Aericina fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Feb 4, 2011

Ria
Sep 21, 2003

yeah, i have no idea either

Aericina posted:

This actually recently came up in our committee. What we've tried to do is gauge how the visiting refs seem on seriousness of bringing their crew. We have a good contract of 5 people show up just to watch anyway, but we try to put them on notice when we feel that there may be a problem. The head ref for our league, Grand Ref Otto, is amazing at this and we have never run into an issue. Our very first bout we had one ref come when he insisted on bringing several, and he ended up bowing out 15 minutes into the first half due to an "injury". GRO brought a very competent JR from Evansville to OPR and fill in if necessary (the only other option was to bring me in from OPR which would make two hometown refs at JR), and what do you know.

Just for the record I love what this thread has become.

For all you newbies out there who are volunteering or new refs, you should like "Roller Derby Rule of the Day" on Facebook. This was posted a bit ago:


RE: Bowing Out--Yeah, totally. IF that were an available situation, I don't think any of us in our league would have a problem with that. I mean gently caress--I'd love to actually WATCH the sport that I love, if I could. But I'm part of the people that are there to produce the poo poo, so. I do what I can. So does the rest of my crew.

RE: Derby Rule of the Day (Facebook) -- I like it. But I would be wary for anyone that thinks that it's actually RUN by WFTDA. It is not. In fact, WFTDA is kinda getting pissy about it, both on misappropriation grounds and proprietary information grounds. Just be careful and defer to WFTDA if there's a judgment (i.e. "But that page said...").

Redfont
Feb 9, 2010

Little Mac(kerel)
Hey, thanks for the tip, Ria. This page looks pretty nice, and I have a feeling I'm going to be learning a lot from it.

Also, aren't inlines allowed in roller derby, just discouraged? I don't remember remember if I've seen it in the rules or not. It might have just been the personal preference of one team for practice maybe, but I distinctly remember the words allowed but not preferable.

I was also under the impression that older roller derby was sort of like a co-ed version of a men's lacrosse team, with lots of checks and bruises and not many rules. But I suppose it could go either way. Maybe that's just the way I had it pictured in my head.

Going back to my original question
A) Thanks for the answer on what it was skaters aren't supposed to read about
B) The reason they aren't supposed to read about it seems to make pretty good sense.

Personally, I sort of like roller derby where it is right now, it's got kind of an underground feel that ties in well with the skater's deameanour (like their roller derby names and the whole punk nature) and just the general atmosphere of the sport. I'm a little worried that eventually it's going to really catch on and gain some steam, and it's just going to turn into another boring, regulated, rule-riddled, safe sport on TV that no one will want to watch.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Ria
Sep 21, 2003

yeah, i have no idea either

Redfont posted:

Hey, thanks for the tip, Ria. This page looks pretty nice, and I have a feeling I'm going to be learning a lot from it.

Also, aren't inlines allowed in roller derby, just discouraged? I don't remember remember if I've seen it in the rules or not. It might have just been the personal preference of one team for practice maybe, but I distinctly remember the words allowed but not preferable.

I was also under the impression that older roller derby was sort of like a co-ed version of a men's lacrosse team, with lots of checks and bruises and not many rules. But I suppose it could go either way. Maybe that's just the way I had it pictured in my head.

Going back to my original question
A) Thanks for the answer on what it was skaters aren't supposed to read about
B) The reason they aren't supposed to read about it seems to make pretty good sense.

Personally, I sort of like roller derby where it is right now, it's got kind of an underground feel that ties in well with the skater's deameanour (like their roller derby names and the whole punk nature) and just the general atmosphere of the sport. I'm a little worried that eventually it's going to really catch on and gain some steam, and it's just going to turn into another boring, regulated, rule-riddled, safe sport on TV that no one will want to watch.

Now, take under the assumption that I'm with a WFTDA ruleset team (others may be different):

RE: Inlines -- They are only used by refs. And even then, they are "strongly encouraged" to use quad skates. The rollergirls themselves have to use quads, there is no argument on that one.

Re: History -- Yeah, well. Roller Derby as it stands was originally a spin-off of dance marathons back in depression-era America. They were lap skating marathons that turned into full-contact melees. It was co-ed then. It was big in the 30s and 40s. It became commercialized. And gimmicky. And then fell underground.

Then they started back up in the 70s as a nostalgia thing that ended up being commercialized right out of the gate, and was closer to WWF-style things. The hits were real, but the outcomes were staged. That sort of thing. It, too fell out of favor with the general public after a little while. I'm not sure if they were co-ed. I think a lot of leagues were mostly women.

Late 80s, early 90s ended up resurging it due to inlines becoming popular, and they were televised. That's where people generally remember them (if they don't remember the '70s one.) It was, again, pretty staged-outcome brawls again. I don't remember if they were co-ed or not, but I think they were.

This last one started in the American south and south west in the early '00s (I think 2003? But I might be off by a couple years). LA/Austin/SD seem to be the earliest big groups that started them. It then popped up. "Flat Track" ended up popping up due to the sheer amount of space, money, and time was invested in keeping a banked track, and a lot of these groups were amateur leagues that could barely get enough money scrapped together to rent time at a rink. So, flat-track derby was born. Not staged, this one's pretty durn legit.

I'm not sure as far as the Womens' Flat Track Derby Association (WFTDA) and the Old School Derby Association (OSDA)'s histories. I think WFTDA started first, and then OSDA was there because of diverging mindsets with regards to rules' stringency, and safety vs. full-contact. Neither is right or wrong, and they're both the same sort of rules (from a 5k' level, anyway).

As far as things like Whip It! are concerned, Austin's TXRD is not affiliated with any particular league structure or rule set than their own, as far as I can tell. They are much rowdier than either WFTDA or OSDA would allow. They're their own thing. Unfortunately that lessens the love some people have for it because it's less of a spectacle, but I guess that's what happens when you have different levels and differing ideas with regards to what's "the true nature of derby" or "what it should be about."

Hopefully that helps?

  • Locked thread