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It isn't really genocide so much as it is bloody and ineffective repression. I have a feeling the fact it is ineffective is breaking support for the regime faster than the fact it is bloody.
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Feb 21, 2011 18:27
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I think there was a rational, although not necessarily correct, reason to avoid interfering in the other protests The US had positive mil-mil leverage in Tunisia, Egypt, and Bahrain and I suspect the quiet nudges helped to avoid (and in the case of Bahrain, stop it from continuing) an outright bloodbath. The US has no positive leverage on Libya. Things can't backfire and get any worse in Libya and the US can't do anything to force him to stop. There's literally no good reason on earth to not pursue heavy targeted sanctions about Libya's leadership. It can't back them into a corner, because they're already in that corner shooting everything in sight. Sanctions might, just might make Gaddafi realize he's going to be ostracized from the international community if he continues this (that's what happened in the 90s), but more importantly, the US and everybody else won't look incompetent and complicit to Libyans.
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Feb 21, 2011 18:27
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I don't know that anything will save Gaddafi at this point. I suppose the question is whether the US has more to lose by a) not doing anything and being seen as complicit or b) doing something and being seen as imperialists.
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Feb 21, 2011 18:32
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 WARNING: REALLY loving GROSS. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNEDhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFNmlGYmaeA&feature=player_embedded#at=15 THAT WAS loving GROSS WASN'T IT?I couldn't actually bring myself to watch after the first really gross thing. I am so angry right now that someone can do this to so many people. So angry.
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Feb 21, 2011 18:32
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Xandu posted:Things can't backfire and get any worse in Libya and the US can't do anything to force him to stop. There's literally no good reason on earth to not pursue heavy targeted sanctions about Libya's leadership. It can't back them into a corner, because they're already in that corner shooting everything in sight. Sanctions might, just might make Gaddafi realize he's going to be ostracized from the international community if he continues this (that's what happened in the 90s), but more importantly, the US and everybody else won't look incompetent and complicit to Libyans. To be honest I think the US could push the UN to intervene, but probably won't. At this point, if Qaddafi has already fled, it may be long past the point of efficacy in sanctions. I'm not sure what would be the right thing to do but I'm 100% sure it's not what is going on right now.
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Feb 21, 2011 18:33
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Nonsense posted:They're showing footage on AJE of auto-cannon shells scattered across the landscape. Those are from the jet fighters being employed against protesters. Not just fighter jets, but anti-aircraft guns and helicopters as well. Gaddafi is using everything he has. Mercenaries, the air force, armored vehicles and much more. He's using everything.
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Feb 21, 2011 18:34
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GonadTheBallbarian posted:To be honest I think the US could push the UN to intervene, but probably won't. At this point, if Qrazy Qaddafi has already fled, it may be long past the point of efficacy in sanctions. I'm not sure what would be the right thing to do but I'm 100% sure it's not what is going on right now. Apparently Ban Ki Moon has spoken to Gaddafi in Libya (or so I understand). And I don't know what the UN would do.
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Feb 21, 2011 18:34
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farraday posted:It isn't really genocide so much as it is bloody and ineffective repression. I have a feeling the fact it is ineffective is breaking support for the regime faster than the fact it is bloody. It won't end the protests but he is wantonly massacring the population, and surrounding countries should strongly consider mobilizing fighters over the country. Some Lebanese pilots are already confirmed detained by the Maltese.
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Feb 21, 2011 18:35
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A friend of mine just posted this on his Facebookschadenfraud's friend posted:
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Feb 21, 2011 18:36
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Petey posted:Apparently Ban Ki Moon has spoken to Gaddafi in Libya (or so I understand). And I don't know what the UN would do. Well, to start, they could meet the requests of the envoys pleading for a no-fly zone over Libya. Shoot down any plane going in to strafe/bomb Tripoli or Benghazi.
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Feb 21, 2011 18:36
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Nonsense posted:It won't end the protests but he is wantonly massacring the population, and surrounding countries should strongly consider mobilizing fighters over the country. Some Lebanese pilots are already confirmed detained by the Maltese. Libyan not Lebanese right? I don't disagree, it's just fairly difficult to do so since multilateral agreement takes time and the only states that could do so unilaterally immediately are, I believe, Western, especially the US. I would say that Egypt taking the lead in shutting down Libya's repression would probably give the military some serious revolutionary credibility with their own population. Edit// Libyan state TV "Gaddafi's son is forming a committee to investigate the incidents happening in the country." 
farraday fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Feb 21, 2011 |
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Feb 21, 2011 18:38
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farraday posted:Libyan not Lebanese right?  Sorry, my iphone corrected the spelling to that. 
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Feb 21, 2011 18:40
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farraday posted:Libyan not Lebanese right? From what I understand, Egypt, Tunisia and Turkey were attempting to send aid. I wonder if they had armed forces escorts? It might be time to trade grain for grit.
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Feb 21, 2011 18:40
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Petey posted:Apparently Ban Ki Moon has spoken to Gaddafi in Libya (or so I understand). And I don't know what the UN would do. Probably nothing as China or Russia would veto whatever the Security Council decides. Doesn't close the door on unilateral action by neighbor countries, if there's sufficient resources and will by some regional power (Turkey or Egypt I suppose) to intervene. There's always the US too and I certainly think Gaddafi's earned himself a visitor from Missouri or Diego Garcia, but let's be realistic that's not happening.
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Feb 21, 2011 18:41
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Al-Saqr posted:
Well, I've no intention in heading to the opposite side of the globe for American food.
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Feb 21, 2011 18:44
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AJE: The Libyan pilots in Malta are basically defectors who refused to fire on protesters.
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Feb 21, 2011 18:45
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From the BBC update page -quote:# EU going to intervene?
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Feb 21, 2011 18:45
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farraday posted:AJE: The Libyan pilots in Malta are basically defectors who refused to fire on protesters. That sounds like it makes more sense, actually.
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Feb 21, 2011 18:46
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Once someone cries "Genocide!" isn't the UN required to act in some way? I'm pretty sure I remember that being mentioned a while ago.
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Feb 21, 2011 18:47
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ukle posted:From the BBC update page - Oh I hope to hell they do.
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Feb 21, 2011 18:47
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ukle posted:From the BBC update page - I hope it's actually NATO. For aforementioned Diego Garcia or Missouri reasons.
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Feb 21, 2011 18:47
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ukle posted:Not just that - the whole UN delegation from Libya asks for the UN to instigate an immediate no fly zone over Libya. Basically they want the UN to intervene, which way things are turning is not altogether unimaginable as even the Chinese must be appalled at what the Libyans are doing. Wait what... they want a no fly zone, so that the UN can intervene. Does not compute. I need more coffee maybe. They want to prevent the Libyans from flying? Cartouche fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Feb 21, 2011 |
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Feb 21, 2011 18:47
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As a British person, I find it absolutely disgusting that the people are Libya are being slaughtered with weapons sold to the regime by Britain.  The news coming out of Libya is absolutely chilling.
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Feb 21, 2011 18:48
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Gravy Jones posted:drat. I was thinking earlier that as far as insane, megalomaniac dictators go Gaddafi flies under the radar somewhat, and even manages to get away with that whole harmless eccentric thing, because unlike some of his peers he hasn't commited genocide.
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Feb 21, 2011 18:48
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Cartouche posted:Wait what... they want a no fly zone, so that the UN can intervene. It's like the no fly zone in Iraq after the 1st Gulf War, it was enforced with British and American fighter missions.
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Feb 21, 2011 18:48
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korranus posted:I hope it's actually NATO. For aforementioned Diego Garcia or Missouri reasons. It's probably too hard to identify where he actually is for a mission from stealth bombers.
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Feb 21, 2011 18:50
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Nonsense posted:It's like the no fly zone in Iraq after the 1st Gulf War, it was enforced with British and American fighter missions. Ah. Gotcha. Would be interesting to see how that plays out.
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Feb 21, 2011 18:52
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korranus posted:I hope it's actually NATO. For aforementioned Diego Garcia or Missouri reasons. I'm sorry I don't get these references
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Feb 21, 2011 18:57
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Petey posted:I'm sorry I don't get these references Stealth bombers are based in these locations. The B-2.
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Feb 21, 2011 18:57
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Ive just come back from a field season in libya - hearing about green square becoming a warzone is simply..... bloody hell I cant really say - I was only there a fortnight ago and it was lovely, peaceful, beautiful. Ive still got colleagues out there and I hope they're ok, but seems impossible to contact them at all. Hope Libya does get rid of Gadaffi, but let's think about the possible outcomes of outside intervention - even though it's badly needed. Libya's a big country with a well-equipped-ish army and air force (we bloody sold it to them after all)...... Hmmmm.... not making much sense here, am I? still a bit shocked that I got out just in time it seems.
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Feb 21, 2011 19:00
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GonadTheBallbarian posted:Stealth bombers are based in these locations. The B-2. I guess I'm not up on my war porn and also I don't understand how B2s are supposed to help in this situation.
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Feb 21, 2011 19:01
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Nuclear Spoon posted:
That's loving awful, it's like something out of a gory video game.
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Feb 21, 2011 19:02
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Petey posted:I guess I'm not up on my war porn and also I don't understand how B2s are supposed to help in this situation. Just dreaming aloud  I'll stop
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Feb 21, 2011 19:04
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From AJE about the pilots:quote:Karl Stagno-Novarra, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Malta, reports the pilots of the jet fighters that landed there are "senior colonels", who were ordered to bomb protesters. They refused and have defected to Malta, he said. quote:The defected pilots reportedly tell Maltese officials they were based in Tripoli and ordered to attack protesters on the ground in Benghazi. After seeing their fellow pilots begin the airstrikes, they diverted course toward Malta. If substantiated, this would appear to confirm the use of airstrikes against civilian protesters in cities around the country. I hope this is enough to get Gaddafi hanged.
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Feb 21, 2011 19:06
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Live blogs if you want to keep up with things Guardian BBC AJE
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Feb 21, 2011 19:08
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korranus posted:Just dreaming aloud Fantasizing about war isn't exactly a good thing, you know.
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Feb 21, 2011 19:08
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But Ghadaffi is a colonel... they should refuse his orders for being a violation of rank
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Feb 21, 2011 19:08
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I don't really know what I'm talking about, but CVN-65 USS Enterprise just transited the Suez (going the wrong direction though). Is it possible that navy jets, with refueling, could be close enough to immediately enforce a no-fly zone?
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Feb 21, 2011 19:09
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Petey posted:I guess I'm not up on my war porn and also I don't understand how B2s are supposed to help in this situation. I suppose they could be used to disable Libyan Air Force bases to prevent fixed-wing aircraft from being used against the population, but that level of intervention would be unlikely. If Gadaffi really does plan on wiping out whole swaths of people rather than quit, then a no-fly-zone imposed by the U.N. could be a more likely possibility. I would think there are enough NATO air assets available to enforce it. I do think, however, that would help other governments de-legitimize their own protesters by pointing to Western intervention in Libya. Stop a massacre and possibly stunt the progress of other democratic uprisings, or watch a tyrant commit a bloodbath. lovely choice, it seems to me. Priapist fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Feb 21, 2011 |
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Feb 21, 2011 19:10
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Petey posted:I guess I'm not up on my war porn and also I don't understand how B2s are supposed to help in this situation. Me neither. They need F-16's more than B-2's. Or this could be a good time to test the F-22 Iron Eagle style.
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Feb 21, 2011 19:11
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