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SauceNinja posted:They're definitely part of the equation. Unfortunately people die all the time without being killed by the Libyan armed forces. I'm not saying they're innocent, but I'm not going to assume every picture of a severed foot, exploded head, or bloody brownish person is in Libya and shot by their government. For me, a picture of them attempting to shoot people is more damning than a person who has been shot. I'll have a quick word with the protesters and ask them to get some pictures of people attempting to shoot them.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:46
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Jesus christ I wish I didn't watch that video.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:47
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Owlkill posted:I'm not calling for boots on the ground or anything like that but gently caress, you've got Italy, France and Spain (off the top of my head) all within striking distance, all with modern air forces. Surely a no-fly zone wouldn't be too controversial an idea. The absolute best solution (that is still pretty lovely) would be for any intervention to come from Egypt or Tunisia. It avoids any of the usual talking points for the regime and reminds the Libyan people that their neighbours are with them. Slantedfloors fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Feb 21, 2011 |
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Feb 21, 2011 21:47
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Pipski posted:I'll have a quick word with the protesters and ask them to get some pictures of people attempting to shoot them. In general pictures of the actual shooting attempts taking place are a major tide-turner in support and awareness. It's one thing to get still photographs. It's another to actually see the perpetrators of the brutality as it's taking place.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:49
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Libyan deputy ambassador to the UN, do you have a message for Muammar al-Qaddafi? Libyan deputy ambassador:  .
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Feb 21, 2011 21:49
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Yeah, about that intervention thingy, this just popped up on BBCnewsquote:2047: One of the most active anti-Gaddafi tweeters, Libyan Dude, tweets: "Ok, more important than ever to say this I guess: We don't want foreign (and western) intervention, only condemnation and humanit. aid".
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Feb 21, 2011 21:49
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Samurai Sanders posted:I've only been glancing at this thread and the news from time to time, but I can't understand why these governments aren't saying "but....but Israel!" to try and regain order. Isn't that what they normally do when faced with hard domestic problems? Would it not work somehow, or do they have some other plan? Give brown people some credit.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:50
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Yusuf al Qaradawi on Aljazeera saying that by every religious definition Qaddafi and everyone who helps him at this point forward is damned to hell forever. and he spent a long time praying to god to strike down Qaddafi and all who help them to the fires of hell and protect the Libyan people from their evil and free them from that evil. Truly a man who speaks the right stuff. * News* Aljazeera Reports several military aircraft sent to bomb Benghazi have instead landed their planes and the pilots defected there. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Feb 21, 2011 |
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Feb 21, 2011 21:50
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This makes me physically ill. It's just disgusting.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:51
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Times posted:I fear very strongly for your friend. It does not look good. He is in the middle of nothing short of a massacre by a government of its own people. They don't care about who they kill - they are killing everyone, punishing all the citizens for daring to speak out against a criminal regime. Why would you ever hold proportional self-defense against someone?
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Feb 21, 2011 21:51
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Greyhawk posted:Yeah, about that intervention thingy, this just popped up on BBCnews Well military intervention is a horrible idea, but UN sanctions and ceasing to buy oil would be a great step. Al-Saqr posted:Yusuf al Qaradawi on Aljazeera saying that by every religious definition Qaddafi and everyone who helps him at this point forward is damned to hell forever. and he spent a long time praying to god to strike down Qaddafi and all who help them to the fires of hell and protect the Libyan people from their evil and free them from that evil. Qaradawi holds some pretty terrible opinions, but he's right about dictators.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:52
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Owlkill posted:Too loving right Qatari prime minister. Bout time the EU and NATO (or the Arab League or anyone else for that matter) stepped up to the plate and actually intervened in a genocide for once rather than sitting back tutting and then saying 'never again' once it's all over. I'm not calling for boots on the ground or anything like that but gently caress, you've got Italy, France and Spain (off the top of my head) all within striking distance, all with modern air forces. Surely a no-fly zone wouldn't be too controversial an idea. The United States 6th Fleet is based in Italy, there is at least one aircraft carrier within range to run air cover over Tripoli and Banghazi which are on the coast. The Orgasm Sanction fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Feb 21, 2011 |
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Feb 21, 2011 21:52
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Intel5 posted:The United States 6th Fleet is based in Italy, there is at least one aircraft carrier within range.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:54
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Owlkill posted:Too loving right Qatari prime minister. Bout time the EU and NATO (or the Arab League or anyone else for that matter) stepped up to the plate and actually intervened in a genocide for once rather than sitting back tutting and then saying 'never again' once it's all over. I'm not calling for boots on the ground or anything like that but gently caress, you've got Italy, France and Spain (off the top of my head) all within striking distance, all with modern air forces. Surely a no-fly zone wouldn't be too controversial an idea. None of those countries, or even the EU as a whole, will take action unilaterally. Even if they wanted to, they aren't within distance to enforce a no-fly zone without U.S. aerial refueling, AWACS, and Naval support. The EU isn't heavy on power-projection military capabilities. The U.S. will have to take the lead under a NATO umbrella, and that likely won't happen without a Security Council directive. Considering China's relationship with Libya, Russia's ties, and the overall skepticism of U.S. intentions in that part of the world, I don't see a U.N. mandate happening, either.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:54
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The-Mole posted:Why would you ever hold proportional self-defense against someone? 
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Feb 21, 2011 21:57
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Samurai Sanders posted:I've only been glancing at this thread and the news from time to time, but I can't understand why these governments aren't saying "but....but Israel!" to try and regain order. Isn't that what they normally do when faced with hard domestic problems? Would it not work somehow, or do they have some other plan? "The boy that cried  ." Over the past half-century, the people of the Middle East have discovered that their regimes have no interest in actually helping the Palestinians, and are using the plight of the Palestinians for their own benefit. The Arabs are sick of "but Israel!" They want a government that actually worries about their interests and maybe cares about the Palestinians enough to treat the Palestinians' suffering as more than a PR campaign.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:58
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I wish my country (Italy) would finally show some balls, and after asking consent of NATO and EU, step up and send a fat task force to kick those mercs in the balls and hang them high. First to protect Lybians, tben to protect italians living and working there (which are many), and finally to protect our interests there and keep oil prices from jumping high
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Feb 21, 2011 21:58
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Patter Song posted:"The boy that cried
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Feb 21, 2011 22:00
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Aljazeera just got through to someone in one of the towns under attack, he says that the town is in full war mode with the citizens actively fighting mercenary forces, he reports that 40 mercenaries have been captured by the Libyan people so far.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:00
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Slantedfloors posted:Any foreign intervention is a bad idea, but American intervention would be the absolute worst thing ever by a large margin. I don't think there would be much fallout from preventing Libyan military aircraft from taking off, since they are bombing their own people.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:01
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Lasagna posted:I wish my country (Italy) would finally show some balls, and after asking consent of NATO and EU, step up and send a fat task force to kick those mercs in the balls and hang them high. Shouldn't your skies be filled with Italian fighter planes? I've read that Italia has put its air bases on full alert and sending its planes south earlier today.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:01
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While it sounds like a good idea to send task forces and such, these uprisings have to be uprisings of the people, for the people, and by the people, otherwise they risk not being able to really take ownership of their revolution. No, it's best as horrifying as it is for these things to play out by themselves.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:03
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Intel5 posted:I don't think there would be much fallout from preventing Libyan military aircraft from taking off, since they are bombing their own people. I couldn't believe the story I just saw on AJE about two Libyan Air Force Colonels that said "gently caress it" to bombing civilians, and just flew to Malta. Clearly not all their military is just following orders blindly. Also this youtube user http://www.youtube.com/user/MsKimo80 is the one that all the mass media was getting their videos from last night and earlier. There's some pretty brutal stuff on there :\
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Feb 21, 2011 22:05
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Greyhawk posted:Shouldn't your skies be filled with Italian fighter planes? I've read that Italia has put its air bases on full alert and sending its planes south earlier today. Now that I think about it, it's likely standard operation procedure so the Italian air force can prevent Libyan planes from bombing merchant ships or even Italian soil. I know, it's not likely but the situation is so unstable now that anything is possible.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:05
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Greyhawk posted:Yeah, about that intervention thingy, this just popped up on BBCnews Word that some pilots have defected rather than do bombings gives one hope that it won't be necessary. If the Libyan air force ignores their orders, there's no need for intervention and the regime would be gone in a matter of days.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:06
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AJE twitter:quote:AJELive Airstrikes now hitting Misratah, east of #Tripoli, as #Libyan tanks open fire in the Libyan city, says #AJArabic
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Feb 21, 2011 22:08
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More attacks reported Libyan city of Misratah, east of Tripoli, is latest to be attacked by airstrikes. Heavy artillery fire devastates buildings as tanks roll into the city, witnesses tell Al Jazeera.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:08
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roundmidnight posted:While it sounds like a good idea to send task forces and such, these uprisings have to be uprisings of the people, for the people, and by the people, otherwise they risk not being able to really take ownership of their revolution. As horrific and disgusting as the Libyan/Bahraini governments reaction to the protests and the number of people killed are, any revolutions have to be entirely internal if they're going to be perceived as legitimate. The point isn't just that they get a new government, it needs to be that the people were able to overthrow their rulers and demand their rights.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:09
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Slantedfloors posted:Any foreign intervention is a bad idea, but American intervention would be the absolute worst thing ever by a large margin. Oh no, Israeli intervention would be far worse than that.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:10
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Wow, guy on AJE right now is talking about the Libyan forces using high-caliber rounds on civilians, saying there is nothing they can do to treat these wounds and the hospitals are just getting mutilated corpses dropped off  This is Awful.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:10
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Guy on AJE just said they're using anti-aircraft weapons on protesters 
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Feb 21, 2011 22:10
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Pipski posted:I'll have a quick word with the protesters and ask them to get some pictures of people attempting to shoot them. I think it would go a long way toward supporting their cause. You can start with that guys friend in Libya. schadenfraud posted:A friend of mine just posted this on his Facebook My flags for viral propaganda marketing went up when I read that message. That being said, I hope the citizens kick much rear end.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:10
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korranus posted:Oh no, Israeli intervention would be far worse than that.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:11
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Cjones posted:Guy on AJE just said they're using anti-aircraft weapons on protesters Thats just... Oh god.  This is bad, really bad.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:11
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roundmidnight posted:While it sounds like a good idea to send task forces and such, these uprisings have to be uprisings of the people, for the people, and by the people, otherwise they risk not being able to really take ownership of their revolution. Yeah man I'm sure the family of the future thousands killed will rest happily knowing that a possible foreign intervention could have gotten the same results without their husband/wife/child brutally murdered ending in more or less the same conclusion. Would it really matter if say, US forces came in, captured Gadaffi and the general oligarchy, ended the carnage and handed it to the people? Does anyone really think the rest of the world will just say "nuh-uh, that doesn't count, give the good colonel his weapons back!"
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Feb 21, 2011 22:12
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No one is saying we should co-opt their revolution, and I don't see how stopping the Libyan air force from dropping bombs on civilians would do that.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:12
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Cjones posted:Guy on AJE just said they're using anti-aircraft weapons on protesters This would explain the injuries shown in the video posted earlier.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:13
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Slantedfloors posted:Well yeah, that would be worse. But that's going into a realm of horror so deep that next logical step would be something like "Satan, Sauron and Darth Vader announce their support of the Protests" What if Israel offered some sort of large humanitarian aid assistance? That would be seen as a sign of good faith and a step towards unity?
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Feb 21, 2011 22:13
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Cjones posted:Guy on AJE just said they're using anti-aircraft weapons on protesters
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Feb 21, 2011 22:13
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Let's not slander Lord Vader here; from the sound of it he's killed fewer children than Gaddafi.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:13
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