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Xandu posted:I don't think it did. Ok, "arguably". It was endorsed by the UN after the fact anyway.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:53
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Furious Mittens posted:To be fair, I'll be glad to bitch about the United States stepping all over business in the U.N. to fit their needs, just like Russia and China. It's a political body and that's to be expected. No problems, I'm perfectly happy to admit that the SC is dysfunctional at the best of times, and that the UN has it's faults. It's the Anti-UN attitude pandered around by those who don't understand its purpose, how it works, or what it's accomplished which irritate me, and there was a lot of them earlier.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:55
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VikingSkull posted:A no-fly zone isn't out of the realm of possibility, but it's going to take some time to get the political will behind it and then set it up. Peacekeepers are a ways off at best, and a coalition of the willing with a UN mandate behind it isn't going to happen at all. It probably will happen, if the acts of violence and suppression from Air Power continue. It's probably the "easiest" action that could be taken without an extreme appearance of outside meddling in the countries affairs. Logistically, it's much easier to send a carrier group offshore than it is to mobilize peacekeepers and figure that mess out. There's probably already several carrier groups from various nations in the area that could get stationed fairly quickly, given authorization and orders.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:55
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VikingSkull posted:Let's try and focus on the realistic solutions the international community can engage in instead of cheerleading another rushed, ill-advised war, ok everyone? Well I think many of things needed are excruciatingly obvious: as many medical personal and supplies as possible, as free and protected press as possible, and protection for peaceful protesters. What this situation has really exposed is the international "community" doesn't exist to provide those things. The UN is a philosophy club that gets together to scold the bad things in the world, but its capacities to take action aren't real.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:55
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You would not need a carrier group I'd think. Libya is easily reachable from European and Asian air bases I wager.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:57
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VikingSkull posted:Can someone explain to me how a group of people can be victims of genocide while capturing vast swaths of territory at the same time? Rwanda? Unless you mean the rebel force itself and not the group as a whole?
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Feb 25, 2011 22:57
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euphronius posted:The UN SC authorized Bush's invasion. No they didn't http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3661134.stm Bush did his own thing.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:58
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euphronius posted:You could understand why the US would be hesitant to support such a precedent. Ouch 
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Feb 25, 2011 22:59
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euphronius posted:You would not need a carrier group I'd think. Libya is easily reachable from European and Asian air bases I wager. Yeah I was gonna post this. The US has bases all over there, from Italy outward. Any allies going in would have our tanker assets and their own. If France is a dear this time around a carrier won't be used if a no-fly zone is set up. They might send one for extra fuckage but it doesn't matter either way.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:59
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euphronius posted:You would not need a carrier group I'd think. Libya is easily reachable from European and Asian air bases I wager. Probably not. I was mainly thinking about the United States (see even us liberals get a U.S. centric viewpoint from time to time!). I'm sure some European countries wouldn't mind their bases being used and the U.S. bases in Europe are hosted primarily in countries that would most likely already be on board.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:59
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The US has put in place sanctions and the EU has drawn up a set of sanctions including travel bans, arms embargo and freezing of assets. Speaking of the UN, and anyone else surprised that the top three contributers of troops to peacekeeping operations are India, Bangladesh and Pakistan? Gadaffi posted:If the people of Lybia don't love me then I don't deserve to live Jut fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Feb 25, 2011 |
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Feb 25, 2011 23:01
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The ICC referral is really important as well.
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Feb 25, 2011 23:04
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Jut posted:Speaking of the UN, and anyone else surprised that the top three contributers of troops to peacekeeping operations are India, Bangladesh and Pakistan? When the US was in Somalia in the 1990s I saw a news piece about the involvement of Pakistan in the UN, it's pretty astounding.
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Feb 25, 2011 23:05
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VikingSkull posted:When the US was in Somalia in the 1990s I saw a news piece about the involvement of Pakistan in the UN, it's pretty astounding. It's pretty awesome given that other members of the UN don't like paying their contributions (and I'm not just talking about the US). Speaking of QC, does anyone think it's possible he actually thinks he's doing the best for Lybia's independence and believes these protests are due to outside forces? I don't mean to play devils advocate, but the longer a dictator is in power, the further from reality he is kept (Hitler ordering around non-existent troops, Ceausescu going to inspect wooden apples etc...). Jut fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Feb 25, 2011 |
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Feb 25, 2011 23:07
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Jut posted:It's pretty awesome given that other members of the UN don't like paying their contributions (and I'm not just talking about the US). The US involvement with the UN is hilariously sad, but the troop involvement makes sense because it's a given that we're probably leading a UN force, yet want to retain sole command over our troops. That part is understandable, I guess, and we aren't the only nation that operates like that.
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Feb 25, 2011 23:12
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Jut posted:Speaking of QC, does anyone think it's possible he actually thinks he's doing the best for Lybia's independence and believes these protests are due to outside forces? I don't mean to play devils advocate, but the longer a dictator is in power, the further from reality he is kept (Hitler ordering around non-existent troops, Ceausescu going to inspect wooden apples etc...). I wonder if it's any of the above? It seems his disconnect from reality has direct impact on the events that are happening. I wonder if his advisors understand his disconnect and have been providing him false information in order to save their own lives cause he might flip out? e: I mean that not that he's being kept from information from his government, but that he truly can't grasp the consequences and... I don't even know how describe it (see below.) Mental instability and the idea of a connection to reality is a very interesting thing. But associate that with power and money creates a very caustic situation. I'd like to do some research into how humans actually understand reality and how our brains connect to it. Sivias fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Feb 25, 2011 |
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Feb 25, 2011 23:15
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Sivias posted:I wonder if it's any of the above? It seems his disconnect from reality has direct impact on the events that are happening. I wonder if his advisors understand his disconnect and have been providing him false information in order to save their own lives cause he might flip out? Well what fascinates me about dictatorships is that they usually start out great and the people benefit. But they end in such lovely ways. I'm interested in how a dictator goes from sweeping reforms to benefit his subjects, to batshit insane mass murdering twat. As for the advisors, towards the end, Hitlers advisors had turning into dribbling yes men, and Ceausescu was quite blatantly kept in a dream world by the people surrounding him, to the point where people would arrange for the leaves on trees to be painted green before his visits, supermarkets stocked with painted wooden fruit, mass pro-Ceausescu rallies and shows etc...He genuinely seemed surprised during his final address to the people. It's one of the reasons that these CQ turncoats disgust me, they were the people supporting and helping him rule the country. I just don't buy that all dictators are mentally ill. Edit: LOL at AJE cutting off boring, ranting London guy.
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Feb 25, 2011 23:23
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Has Osama or anyone from Al-Qaeda even put out some sort of comment about any of this? In particular I would be interested in what Osama has to say about Gaddafi putting the blame on him and his group for providing drugs.
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Feb 25, 2011 23:25
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rndm posted:Has Osama or anyone from Al-Qaeda even put out some sort of comment about any of this? In particular I would be interested in what Osama has to say about Gaddafi putting the blame on him and his group for providing drugs. Due to the way they're hiding, it usually takes weeks for their messages to get out. The only high level messages so far from Al Qaeda were from Zawahiri, an Egyptian and the first didn't come out until the 18th of February. edit: oops, forgot to attach them, here you go http://jihadology.net/2011/02/18/as...eople-in-egypt/ http://jihadology.net/2011/02/24/as...le-in-egypt%94/
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Feb 25, 2011 23:29
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Jut posted:The US has put in place sanctions and the EU has drawn up a set of sanctions including travel bans, arms embargo and freezing of assets. The UN pays them to send troops and they actually end up making a small amount on the missions.
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Feb 25, 2011 23:30
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Zawia, 40km west of Tripoli, is apparently being heavily attacked by Gaddafi, using mercenaries, artillery and anti-aircraft guns. More on it from the BBC quote:Zawiya, referred to in the tweet below, is where heavy fighting was reported yesterday. A short while ago, Col Gaddafi's son Saif al-Islam said "terrorists" were in the town and that the army had held back in order to give negotiations a chance.
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Feb 25, 2011 23:34
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Aww crap, time to empty my Unicredit bank account, they were on the ropes last year, and AJE has just mentioned Lybia is one of their biggest shareholders:(
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Feb 25, 2011 23:38
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Brown Moses posted:Zawia, 40km west of Tripoli, is apparently being heavily attacked by Gaddafi, using mercenaries, artillery and anti-aircraft guns. I actually feel a bit better about this knowing that a lot of the protestors (ie:rebels) are military and now well enough armed to fight back.
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Feb 25, 2011 23:39
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Brown Moses posted:Zawia, 40km west of Tripoli, is apparently being heavily attacked by Gaddafi, using mercenaries, artillery and anti-aircraft guns. loving douchebags
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Feb 25, 2011 23:40
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AJE just had a before/after of Gaddafi. He wasn't a bad looking guy when he was younger. Now he looks like a wax model that's been melting in the sun. I'm at work so I can't really GIS it. Anyone have any resources?
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Feb 25, 2011 23:40
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From the Guardianquote:The Guardian's Patrick Wintour and Julian Borger have news of British moves:
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Feb 25, 2011 23:44
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A long and detailed article about Libya:quote:News World News World General The deep-seated anger that gave Libyan people courage http://www.dailyadvertiser.com.au/n..._medium=twitter This is well worth reading.
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Feb 25, 2011 23:48
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If any country tables a no fly zone to the security council, China would vote against it immediately. They don't want to set the precedent because they one day may be shooting their own protesters again. As for compelling the UN to act, it doesn't matter. All you need is a group of countries with strong leadership acting in concert, i.e. France, UK, US, to push forward resolutions and create coalitions and voting blocs that will get poo poo passed. The security council will forever be cockblocked though.
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Feb 25, 2011 23:49
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Brown Moses posted:From the Guardian I guess it isn't an election year in the UK. That's awesome. I really wish our government would do something to show they come down on the side of the people in this scenario.
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Feb 25, 2011 23:50
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Jut posted:Aww crap, time to empty my Unicredit bank account, they were on the ropes last year, and AJE has just mentioned Lybia is one of their biggest shareholders:( It's Libya. Libya.
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Feb 25, 2011 23:55
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Brown Moses posted:From the Guardian oh heck yes 
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Feb 26, 2011 00:01
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So uh, what all happened in Tripoli? It's 1 a.m. there right now.
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Feb 26, 2011 00:06
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Loads of protesters got shot, some parts of the city are pretty hostile environments for mercenaries and pro-Gaddafi supporters at the moment.
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Feb 26, 2011 00:10
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Meanwhile in Sunny Bahrain. Per The Guardianquote:10.42pm GMT: Catching up on today's protests in Bahrain, where the king sacked three cabinet members, including the ministers of health and housing. But that wasn't enough to satisfy protesters. Yes, clearly this was all the fault of ministers not directly involved in the crackdown.
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Feb 26, 2011 00:11
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Jut posted:Well what fascinates me about dictatorships is that they usually start out great and the people benefit. But they end in such lovely ways. I'm interested in how a dictator goes from sweeping reforms to benefit his subjects, to batshit insane mass murdering twat. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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Feb 26, 2011 00:18
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quote:CNN is interviewing Ali Suleiman Aujali, Libya's ambassador to the US who has joined the opposition like so many of his diplomatic colleagues. He thinks Gaddafi's regime is close to destruction: That's the third person saying Gaddafi order the Lockerbie bombing, one of the generals who defected said the same thing when he was interviewed by John Simpson on the BBC.
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Feb 26, 2011 00:19
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Put this in the "unconfirmed" pile, but this is pretty interesting, and so far this particular reporter has been pretty accurate:quote:@Raafatology Edit: Wow, there's a really detailed cable regarding the whole argument that Gaddahfi has with the Swiss, and how things were working regarding the now-defunct-succession in Libya: quote:Summary: A series of events since last summer suggest that tension between various children of Muammar al-Qadhafi has increased, XXXXXXXXXXXX. Much of the tension appears to stem from resentment of Saif al-Islam's high-profile as the public face of the regime; however, deeper tension about contradictions between Saif al-Islam's proposed political-economic reforms, XXXXXXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXXXXXX also play an important role. The arrest and intimidation of a number of Saif al-Islam allies since last summer, on the one hand, and moves to circumscribe Muatassim's role in military equipment procurement, on the other, suggest that the current level of discord among al-Qadhafi's children is acute. While internecine strife is nothing new for the famously fractious al-Qadhafi family, the recent escalation of tension comes during a particularly momentous period. Amid turmoil related to the 40th anniversary of the revolution, Muammar al-Qadhafi's recent election as African Union chairman, proposed political-economic reforms and persistent rumors about al-Qadhafi's health and the absence of a viable mechanism to orchestrate a succession, the sharp rivalry between the al-Qadhafi children could play an important, if not determinative role, in whether the family is able to hold on to power after the author of the revolution exits the political scene. End summary. I really wish I could read the X'ed-out Paragraph 9 Apology fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Feb 26, 2011 |
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Feb 26, 2011 00:20
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Video of mercenaries hiding the evidence of their murders: http://www.libyafeb17.com/?p=2576
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Feb 26, 2011 00:26
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Finlander posted:wh- This is from a while back, but Switzerland (I believe) briefly detained one of Ghaddafi's kids for wrecking his hotel room and assualting a maid. Then ensued a diplomatic shitstorm where Ghaddafi came pretty close to declaring war on the Swiss. Those diabolical swiss. And here's an article talking about why Libya is going so differently than Tunisia and Egypt. quote:Libya is not Egypt or Tunisia. Muammar Qaddafi has no centralized government, has no institutions, and has few rivals inside his own government or military. This is why were are seeing a very different pattern in Libya. The protesters are physically taking control of the country, not just a single square, and they are sometimes doing so by force. Each man employed by the Libyan state is being forced to pick sides. Many are joining the protests, but there is no other way for this to play out than violent revolution. There is no government, to speak of, to hold a gun to the back of the dictator's head. EDIT: Now with link! http://www.enduringamerica.com/home/2011/2/24/from-tunisiaegypt-to-libyairan-notes-of-caution-on-sudden-ch-1.html Shageletic fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Feb 26, 2011 |
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Feb 26, 2011 00:34
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Apparently things are getting rowdy again in Tahrir Square.
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