Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

«‹›3125 »

Narmi: Feb 26, 2008

jsk070 posted:

Hmm, thanks for enlightening me on some of my cynical points. I used the word infighting for future compromises regarding the next government. Next, I used the word "handouts" as in jobs, education, or some sort of opportunities. Many of these protesters gave up everything by going into this revolution. They achieved it, but now what? The world isn't ideal where things change, and everyone becomes equal and happy etc.

I can understand the army trying to get the country's infrastructure/economy back on it's feet, but you have to restore order. A bunch of people protesting...isn't going to accomplish anything now, and change itself will be a LONG time coming. Government tries to restore order by force, and the people revolt back. I can understand the revolt back, because they don't trust anything with the current government. But now, the country is in shambles. What to do? what to do?

It's a tricky line to walk. I just hope that it doesn't spiral into civil war.

I guess I'm cynical. Hope for the best though.

Ah, I see what you mean. Sorry for the misunderstanding - when I hear handouts I immediately think of someone cutting a check.

And I agree with you on the fact that restoring order by force just pushes people to revolt more. From what I understand (and this is a fairly broad generalization), the military probably can't/won't enact real reforms until the economy gets back on track. That can't happen until people get back to work and start rebuilding economy. The people won't get back to work until they get the reforms they were promised, or at least see headway being made, and will continue to protest until then. It's a pretty vicious cycle where nobody wins. I mean, they haven't even reopened the EGX, and it's been close to a month now (I checked, and supposedly it'll be back up next week, but it was supposed to open on Wednesday, so who knows). It'll be interesting to see how big a dive it takes when they reopen it.

The best thing to do, in my opinion, would involve each side working together and taking baby steps. Give more than 10 days to rewrite the constitution. Hand over power to an interim government and involve the military and civilians, but don't put Mubarak's old cronies back in power. Address the workers on strike and explain why, at this time, their demands can't be met. Like you said, it's going to take time for there to be any real change, but I think that if people saw progress being made they'd be okay with that.

Narmi fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Feb 26, 2011

# ? Feb 26, 2011 04:39

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Apr 29, 2024 16:20

Petr: Oct 3, 2000

The military doesn't need people to go back to work before it can lift the emergency law and the curfew.

# ? Feb 26, 2011 05:11

Narmi: Feb 26, 2008

Yeah, I know, I mentioned that in my previous post. I was referring more to how they could work together to make things better.

# ? Feb 26, 2011 05:36

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Ok, Obama has issued unilateral sanctions on

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/2011libya.eo_.rel_.pdf posted:

1. Ayesha QADHAFI [Lieutenant General in the Libyan Army, born circa 1976 or 1977]
2. Khamis QADHAFI [born 1980]
3. Muammar QADHAFI [Head of State of Libya, born 1942]
4. Mutassim QADHAFI [National Security Advisor and Lieutenant Colonel in the
Libyan Army, born circa 1975]
5. Saif Al-Islam QADHAFI [born June 5, 1972]

as well as

quote:

(i) to be a senior official of the Government of Libya;
(ii) to be a child of Colonel Muammar Qadhafi; 2
(iii) to be responsible for or complicit in, or responsible for ordering, controlling, or otherwise directing, or to have participated in, the commission of human rights abuses related to political repression in Libya;
(iv) to have materially assisted, sponsored, or provided financial, material, logistical, or technical support for, or goods or services in support of the activities described in subsection (b)(iii) of this section or any person whose property and interests in property are blocked pursuant to this order;
(v) to be owned or controlled by, or to have acted or purported to act for or on behalf of, any person whose property and interests in property are blocked pursuant to this order; or
(vi) to be a spouse or dependent child of any person whose property and interests in property are blocked pursuant to this order.

and directed the treasury to go after any state owned assets.

# ? Feb 26, 2011 05:42

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

That underground prison in Benghazi came up a few days ago, here's two pictures.

From http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1360343/Libya-Gaddafi-blames-Osama-bin-Laden-hallucinogenic-pills-Nescafe-uprising.html

# ? Feb 26, 2011 05:53

Ham: Apr 30, 2009; You're BALD!

Petr posted:

The military doesn't need people to go back to work before it can lift the emergency law and the curfew.

The curfew isn't enforced and emergency law won't be lifted until they hand over power to a civilian government in a few months.

I think you guys are grossly overreacting to the news the came out of Egypt yesterday, the army didn't oppose the protest on Friday and thousands turned up all over the country, but 2000 people decided to stage a sit-in in Tahrir Square and the army wouldn't have that, you also have to realize that many Egyptians are apathetic to yesterday's protests as they just want to move the economy. Factories aren't working, workers on strike in many areas, shortage in food-stuffs, it's very easy to blame the protesters for this since they won't go back to work.

The protesters' method of thinking is: We don't want anyone associated with Mubarak's administration in any way, shape or form to hold any of the country's ministerial positions. You've had about 60 years of authoriarian rule where only one party at any time held any real power with no real political opposition, so there aren't that many outsiders that know the inner workings of governments and who have the ability to lead the government for a short transitional period effectively.

Right now, the army and government has issues more dangerous than the middle class not accepting Ahmad Shafik as prime minister. All these people living on less than $2 a day? Forty million Egyptians, pretty much half of Egypt? These people are actually in worse conditions now than before the revolution since most of the factories are stopped due to strikes, fleeing investments and many other effects of Mubarak departing. Besides, how can you expect that all these impoverished people to participate effectively in a democratic election when they don't even have enough money to buy food? Anyone could offer them $30 each and they'd vote for them.

These extremely impoverished people didn't actually participate in the revolution. If they actually had, it might have been a hunger revolution and it would have been a lot more bloddy than it was, most of the people in the revolution were middle class, culturally, socially or economically (or all of that). You won't be surprised to hear many of these extremely impoverished people were in support of Mubarak and they're what the previous thread called "Mubs", pretty much extremely poor people driven to fight others because the government spread the fear they'd be even poorer with Mubarak gone, and so far this is proving to be true.

This is what the army, most political commentators and pretty much the entire religious institution in Egypt have been preaching since February 18th. Many people have doubts about the army and many will tell you "Oh hey it's like Mubarak all over again!!!" when it really isn't. The army keeps on arresting many top personnel and many of Mubarak's personal friends and while Tantawi is a Mubarak cronie too, he's not reaching for power as he knows most of the army and the people will oppose this as he isn't very popular with the officer corps. Right now what he's trying to do is making a clean exit for himself by pretty much cleaning up the country in hopes that when it's time for him, people will have enough sympathy and he would have enough popularity that he won't be implicated as others in Mubarak's administration have.

# ? Feb 26, 2011 05:56

rum sodomy the lash: Nov 24, 2007; by Fistgrrl

quote:

to have materially assisted, sponsored, or provided financial, material, logistical, or technical support for, or goods or services in support of the activities described in subsection (b)(iii) of this section or any person whose property and interests in property are blocked pursuant to this order;

So are they going to go after the British arms industry?

# ? Feb 26, 2011 06:04

iSuck: Jul 22, 2005; by T. Mascis

rum sodomy the lash posted:

So are they going to go after the British arms industry?

Is this a serious question? Of course they won't.

# ? Feb 26, 2011 06:43

de_dust: Jan 21, 2009; she had tiny Italian boobs.
Well that's my story.

King Dopplepopolos posted:

Yeah, it certainly sounds like the Egyptian military is shooting itself in the foot here.

I was suprised by how many here trusted the military. It was just really biding it's time; it worked.

# ? Feb 26, 2011 07:37

Pureauthor: Jul 8, 2010; ASK ME ABOUT KISSING A GHOST

Did you guys read Ham's post?

# ? Feb 26, 2011 08:24

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

de_dust posted:

I was suprised by how many here trusted the military. It was just really biding it's time; it worked.

We should have listened to the wise de_dust who foresaw this, but now it's too late! Oh wait no read Ham's post.

# ? Feb 26, 2011 08:51

quadratic: May 2, 2002; f(x) = ax^2 + bx + c

Ham posted:

The curfew isn't enforced and emergency law won't be lifted until they hand over power to a civilian government in a few months.

Ham, did you happen to see Heikal's interview last Saturday? I haven't, but I've been told he's claiming that Mubarak is running things behind the scenes from Sharm.

Article 83 of the Egyptian constitution states that "In case of resignation, the President shall address the letter of resignation to the People's Assembly." I realize this is all ~~a bit~~ very :tinfoil:

, but did this actually happen? All we saw on TV was Omar Suleiman stating that Mubarak had turned over power.

edit: Just found this.

quadratic fucked around with this message at 09:23 on Feb 26, 2011

# ? Feb 26, 2011 09:16

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Small and non-violent political protest in Cameroon put down with force. Absolutely pathetic, especially the bit with the water cannon. Not much compared what is happening in Libya, of course, but still bad. I just can't get over how calmly and mechanically he's being beaten.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIo8SQbn8YA

http://postplasticpeople.wordpress.com/2011/02/24/a-protest-diary-the-power-is-within-us/ posted:

8:00 a.m. The first part of our organization team arrived the site. Water sachets and 200 t-shirts in tow, they were busy setting up things for all to march non-violently and determinedly. The gendarmes show up, arrest 6 of our members and 1 journalist from AFP and confiscate our 200 t-shirts and our water. Our close to 300 protestors panic. The march has not even started and people are being arrested. The majority of them desist. A handful of about 20 diehards persist. We start figuring out possible new itineraries. On the spot we decide to print 50 new t-shirts.

11:30 a.m. We get a call from our colleagues at the P.U.R.S. political party. They are still willing to march and they are a good 2-3 dozen as well. We decide to make sure we mark this day. We set off to �Feu Rouge Bessengue� new red t-shirts brandishing �Ca Suffit� on them, in tow. We meet up with our colleagues of P.U.R.S. and don the t-shirts.

About 12:15 p.m. We occupy Boulevard de la Republique at Feu Rouge Bessengue. No traffic can move on one of the busiest streets in Douala. Amazingly, not one single car driver or motorbike driver protests. Those who support join us in our chants. Others turn their vehicles around quietly and go. Some passersby grab a red tee, don it and join our ranks.

About 12:45 p.m. The forces of law and order show up. An armada. About 70-80 policemen, two water cannons, riot gear and shields. We remain firm and as previously decided, sit, to show we are non-violent. These boys (and a few girls) do not have that word in their vocabulary. They use their clubs to begin seriously hitting on some of our protestors. To their grand surprise, I walk up to ask them to stop. The chiefs then realised they had Kah Walla, �l�oiseau� [bird] as one of them called me, right in front of them. For a few minutes they could not figure out what to do with me and had me walking back and forth while they decided to put me in a truck or in a car.

Finally a big boss in civilian clothes shows up. He wants to �teach me a lesson� as he said. He asks that I be put on the median in the middle of the street. Then he turned the entire water cannon truck on for my personal benefit. Note my two fists up in a victory symbol under the water cannon. That�s the lesson I learnt: the power is within us. No amount of violence and hysteria can remove it.

The icing on the cake is that as we choked and burned from the chemicals on the water, they then asked us to climb onto their truck. As we climbed up, with our backs turned, they hit us with their clubs. The only feeling I had was one of sadness that those whom you and I�s taxes pay to protect us show such extreme cowardice and meanness. After climbing onto the truck they let us catch our breaths then set us free. What was the point of climbing onto the truck? Just so they could beat our backs? Sad.

13: 40 p.m. The team and I head to Muna Clinic to make sure everybody is ok, a few wounds, some serious, some not too bad. Some serious welts on the backs of a few of our members, my back and eyes are still burning and I smell of hydrogen even as I write this. The amazing result though is a profound feeling of accomplishment:

They wanted to stop us from protesting, we protested.
We have a non-violent philosophy, which we maintained in the face of extreme violence. I could not believe it when the Cameroon ԒBosso guys were walking over to stop the population from throwing stones at the police. An incredible force of young Cameroonians.
We started out almost 300 and ended up less than 50 but [being a] nugget has banished fear, for ourselves and for many other Cameroonians.
The population did not join us in droves, but: not one person out of hundreds complained about the blocking on the road; when the violence broke out they started throwing stones at the police; they doused us with water as soon as the police let us go. They also refused water to a few policemen who had been accidentally sprayed by the water cannon.
If we ever doubted it, we now have extreme clarity on the absolute need for change and the absolute need for unwavering determination in bringing it about in our country.

Xandu fucked around with this message at 09:21 on Feb 26, 2011

# ? Feb 26, 2011 09:19

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

quadratic posted:

Ham, did you happen to see Heikal's interview last Saturday? I haven't, but I've been told he's claiming that Mubarak is running things behind the scenes from Sharm.

Article 83 of the Egyptian constitution states that "In case of resignation, the President shall address the letter of resignation to the People's Assembly." I realize this is all ~~a bit~~ very , but did this actually happen? All we saw on TV was Omar Suleiman stating that Mubarak had turned over power.

Military take-overs don't depend on what the old constitution says: it depends on what the men with the guns and tanks say. They're going to draft a new constitution, until then the army is the constitution.

# ? Feb 26, 2011 09:24

Ham: Apr 30, 2009; You're BALD!

quadratic posted:

Ham, did you happen to see Heikal's interview last Saturday? I haven't, but I've been told he's claiming that Mubarak is running things behind the scenes from Sharm.

Article 83 of the Egyptian constitution states that "In case of resignation, the President shall address the letter of resignation to the People's Assembly." I realize this is all ~~a bit~~ very , but did this actually happen? All we saw on TV was Omar Suleiman stating that Mubarak had turned over power.

Many people think Mubarak is running things from Sharm Al Sheikh. I don't know if he is but some of Mubarak's top allies like Safwat Al-Sharif, Fathy Sorour and others have been completely absent from the political and media stage ever since the revolution and they're not being publicly prosecuted, which fuels many conspiracy theories. Personally I doubt the army will ever try and prop up Mubarak ever again, they've seen how 100% of the officers refused to even consider opening fire on the protesters (Tantawi sent out a poll to gauge their willingness on January 30 asking if they would obey an order to open fire on protesters, results were 100% 'No'.) and if the army doesn't pursue real reform people will be back on the streets in no time.

The way the army handled the protesters last night is pretty stupid even if they just want the economy to get better by preventing strikes and protests, and I don't know how people are going to react yet. I don't specifically agree with the protesters' demands to remove Ahmed Shafik but I agree with the call for change. Currently, I'm undecided on wether the army is pursuing real democratic reform or not and I'm waiting till the committee that is proposing the constitutional amendments to actually publish them (should be today or tomorrow I heard). If these amendments aren't what the people want you can bet they'll be out in the streets in huge numbers again.

And no, Mubarak didn't resign to the people's assembly as stepping down and giving his powers to the military council is unconstitutional, so he doesn't need to go to the people's assembly anyway.

Edit: Quadratic, reading the article Heikal is purely speculating and I think part of what he says is true, but no one can really verify it. Really hope it isn't though.

Ham fucked around with this message at 09:32 on Feb 26, 2011

# ? Feb 26, 2011 09:26

IRQ: Sep 9, 2001; SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!

Nenonen posted:

Military take-overs don't depend on what the old constitution says: it depends on what the men with the guns and tanks say. They're going to draft a new constitution, until then the army is the constitution.

That isn't necessarily a bad thing though. Even though the military will probably wind up maintaining its own status quo, Egypt will still be better off if they get to have free elections that wind up controlling the other aspects of governance.

# ? Feb 26, 2011 09:26

Ham: Apr 30, 2009; You're BALD!

About yesterday's events: Egyptian Military is apologizing for an unintended use of force

"In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

The Higher Council of the Military Forces

Message No. "22"
To the youth of the Jan. 25th Revolution

An apology, and what we owe you allows it.

The Higher Council of Military forces confirms to the young people of the Jan. 25th Revolution it's dedication to achieving the noble goals of the revolution and that what happened yesterday through the demonstrations of "Friday of Loyalty(?)" is the result of unintended clashes between the military police and the sons of the revolution, and that there hasn't nor will there ever be orders issued to transgress on the sons of this great country and that all possible precautions will be taken to prevent this from happening again in the future.

Higher Council of the Military Forces"

So it looks like today's demonstrations won't be opposed, thank god.

# ? Feb 26, 2011 09:48

quadratic: May 2, 2002; f(x) = ax^2 + bx + c

Ham posted:

About yesterday's events: Egyptian Military is apologizing for an unintended use of force

This is good news.

It's a bit disturbing that Tantawi polled his officers on their willingness to shoot protesters, but is today the de facto ruler of Egypt. I hope that's not actually true.

The impression I've gotten about Shafik is that he did a decent job as the minister of civil aviation and is perhaps unfairly tainted by his association with Mubarak. Is that your impression as well?

Regardless, I share your hope regarding the military's intentions, and I sincerely hope the proposed constitutional amendments reflect a real effort towards democratic reform.

# ? Feb 26, 2011 10:09

Ham: Apr 30, 2009; You're BALD!

quadratic posted:

It's a bit disturbing that Tantawi polled his officers on their willingness to shoot protesters, but is today the de facto ruler of Egypt. I hope that's not actually true.

Keep in mind, these are military commanders. Mubarak was the supreme commander of the military and they had to follow orders and I'm sure the order to open fire on protesters wouldn't come form him but he wouldn't really oppose it on his own. While Tantawi is representing Egypt he's not actually running it on his own, the military council (the chiefs of staff) all are.

quote:

The impression I've gotten about Shafik is that he did a decent job as the minister of civil aviation and is perhaps unfairly tainted by his association with Mubarak. Is that your impression as well?

Yes, that was my impression. It's also the same impression many people had about Omar Suleiman before Mubarak appointed him as VP which pretty much killed the man's political career. Shafik is nothing like Suleiman though, Suleiman was a spy chief while Shafik was minister of civil aviation and a former EAF pilot, also his ministry was considered one of the "cleanest" when it came to efficiency, effectiveness and corruption.

# ? Feb 26, 2011 10:14

Finlander: Feb 21, 2011

So, how much does the military police differ from the regular military? That is to say, is the military police made of regular joes, like the military, or are they some sort of elite fighting force, or something?

# ? Feb 26, 2011 11:10

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

Xandu posted:

I smell of hydrogen even as I write this

wait, what?

# ? Feb 26, 2011 11:17

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

For monitoring Twitter

cioxx posted:

This is the best site for monitoring twitter, for those who don't know.
http://twitterfall.com/
Just plug in #tripoli and watch the stream come through. You can do exclusions and all kinds of neat things. Twitter's search interface and the ajax-y update is not that good.

For monitoring aircraft unable to land at Tripoli

Monkeytime posted:

Here's an interesting site that lets you monitor global air traffic:
http://www.flightradar24.com/

Live Blogs
BBC
Guardian
AJE

Guardian round up:

quote:

� Anti-government protests are continuing across Libya, including in the capital, Tripoli, where protesters are reported to have taken control of some areas of the city.

� The UN security council is to meet later on Saturday to decide what action to take against Gaddafi. This could include an arms embargo against the government, a travel ban and asset freeze against the Libyan ruler, his relatives and close allies, and referring the violent crackdown to the International Criminal Court so it can investigate possible crimes against humanity.

� The US has announced sanctions against the Libyan government, with Barack Obama signing an executive order blocking property and transactions related to Gaddafi's regime.

� Libya's UN ambassador, Mohammed Shalgham, has denounced Gaddafi, just three days after praising him as "my friend".

� Foreign governments are continuing efforts to evacuate their citizens from Libya. The latest - and probably last - flight from Gatwick to bring back Britons stranded in the country left early on Saturday morning. But further missions to rescue oil workers trapped in the desert are being prepared.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 12:23 on Feb 26, 2011

# ? Feb 26, 2011 11:24

breaklaw: May 12, 2008

BBC just showed video from downtown Tripoli this morning. Everything was very peaceful and normal looking. Normal traffic on the streets and sidewalks, road crews working, busses running... Interesting.

# ? Feb 26, 2011 12:29

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

This might explain why:

quote:

Residents in Tripoli say Gaddafi's regime is arming civilian supporters to quash dissent, AP reports. Locals contacted by the news agency on Saturday said trucks of pro-regime civilians were patrolling the streets. The move follows a speech Gaddafi made to his loyalists in Green Square on Friday, in which he called on them to "retaliate" against the anti-government demonstrators.

As this video shows mercenaries have been cleaning up evidence of killings:
http://www.libyafeb17.com/?p=2576
There were a lot of reports on Twitter yesterday and Thursday saying pro-Gaddafi supporters were painting over anti-Gaddafi graffiti and cleaning up in general, and at the same to Saif Gaddafi was giving various interviews and speeches saying everything was normal in Tripoli, and now you see the world media being invited in to visit Tripoli.

To the credit of the BBC, the report they did from Tripoli last night said they were being bused around by Gaddafi's supporters, and even though Saif said everything was normal it was clear from the scenes of hundreds guest workers which the Libyan economy relies on freezing outside the airport waiting to get home that things weren't at all normal.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 12:39 on Feb 26, 2011

# ? Feb 26, 2011 12:32

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

More about Gaddafi arming his supporters in Tripoli:

quote:

AP has more details on the reports of Gaddafi's forces arming civilians in Tripoli loyal to the regime. The news agency says most residents of the Libyan capital remain in doors, terrified of bands of armed civilians running checkpoints and patrolling the city.

quote:
A 40-year-old business owner said he had seen Gadhafi supporters enter one of the regime's Revolutionary Committee headquarters Saturday and leave with arms.
He said the regime is offering a car and money to any supporters bringing three people with them to join the effort.
"Someone from the old revolutionary committees will go with them so they'll be four," the witness said when reached by telephone from Cairo. "They'll arm them to drive around the city and terrorize people."
Other residents reported seeing trucks full of civilians with automatic rifles patrolling their neighborhoods. Many of the men are young, even teenagers, and wear green arm bands or cloths on their heads to show their affiliation to the regime, residents said.

The Guardian is repeating the claim from Press TV a couple of days ago that Gaddafi's youngest son has joined the protesters.

quote:

Gaddafi's youngest son, Saif al-Arab, has joined the anti-government protesters in the eastern city of Benghazi, Press TV is reporting.

Saif al-Arab was sent by his father to co-operate with Libyan security forces in the crackdown on pro-democracy demonstrators. He also hinted that his father would commit suicide or flee to Latin America in the face of growing condemnation over his violent crackdown on the protests.

In Egypt news:

quote:

This just in from BBC Arabic's Cairo office: The Ruling Higher Military Council in Egypt has approved amendments to the constitution but delayed a debate about presidential powers until a permanent constitution is drafted. The approved amendments include re-instating judicial oversight of elections and introducing presidential term limits. Presidents will be allowed a maximum of two four-year terms.

quote:

Military police have beaten protesters outside the cabinet office near Tahrir Square where they were trying to camp out to press for sweeping political reforms.

The clash signalled both a tougher line from the country's military rulers and the growing impatience of the opposition movement, AP reports.

Tens of thousands of protesters rallied in Tahrir Square on Friday to keep up the pressure for reform, in particular to demand the dismissal of prime minister Ahmed Shafiq, who was appointed by Mubarak.
CIf quotes

Military police moved in on a group of about 150 demonstrators outside the cabinet office near after midnight, said youth activist Shady Ghazali. "One man was slapped so hard he bled from his face," Ghazali told the news agency.

quote:
He and at least four others were detained and taken to a lockup that already held dozens of other protesters who were apparently arrested throughout the day, he said. Some of them showed bruises and other signs of mistreatment, he said.
"The military police is behaving like the state security," Ghazali said.
The Supreme Council of the Armed Forces later apologised for the military's response and said the situation "wasn't intentional." In a statement, the council promised such confrontations would not happen again.

# ? Feb 26, 2011 13:35

Namarrgon: Dec 23, 2008; Congratulations on not getting fit in 2011!

Of the general population, who would be a supporter of Gaddafi? I'm pretty sure I don't understand the intricacies of Libyan culture.

# ? Feb 26, 2011 14:21

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

Namarrgon posted:

Of the general population, who would be a supporter of Gaddafi? I'm pretty sure I don't understand the intricacies of Libyan culture.

People from his tribe, people who believe he's defending the country, and people enticed by a car and money.

# ? Feb 26, 2011 14:29

Roark: Dec 1, 2009; A moderate man - a violently moderate man.

Jut posted:

People from his tribe, people who believe he's defending the country, and people enticed by a car and money.

Also, people who know that if he goes down, they're going down too (secret police etc).

# ? Feb 26, 2011 14:41

Spiky Ooze: Oct 27, 2005; Bernie Sanders is a friend to my planet (pictured)

click the shit outta^

Some twitter reports of civilians being bombed in Libya now.

# ? Feb 26, 2011 15:47

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Gaddifi's grip on Tripoli is slipping:

quote:

Gaddafi's security forces have abandoned parts of Tripoli, where protesters now openly defy the regime, Reuters reports.

The withdrawal of security forces from the working-class Tajoura district after five days of anti-government demonstrations leaves Gaddafi's grip on power looking tenuous, says the news agency.

Residents say troops killed at least five people overnight when they opened fire on protesters trying to march from Tajoura to the central Green Square. The number could not be independently confirmed.

A funeral on Saturday morning for one of the victims turned into another show of defiance against Gaddafi. "Everyone in Tajoura came out against the government. We saw them killing our people here and everywhere in Libya," Ali, aged 25, told Reuters.

"We will demonstrate again and again, today, tomorrow, the day after tomorrow until they change."

Any news where the bombing is taking place?

# ? Feb 26, 2011 16:01

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

From Twitter
Just got a phone appeal: #Libya navy ships sent to bombard Benghazi. They fear attack from air force if they run for Malta.

So they asked if they can get some kind of NATO protection for trip to Malta if they announce they are fleeing #Qaddafi.

That should be a no-brainer for US/NATO: announce free passage routes for mil ships/planes disobeying Qaddafi orders. Now!

Serbian military pilots reportedly bombing anti-government protesters in Tripoli and Benghazi. #Libya #feb17 Milosevic trained them well

# ? Feb 26, 2011 16:08

Spiky Ooze: Oct 27, 2005; Bernie Sanders is a friend to my planet (pictured)

click the shit outta^

Brown Moses posted:

Gaddifi's grip on Tripoli is slipping:

Any news where the bombing is taking place?

No it just comes up on the twitterfall saying Al-Jazeera reported it, and reports of loud military helicopters and planes also were there the same time. No confirmation anywhere.

# ? Feb 26, 2011 16:12

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

I think someone started retweeting something from days ago, and people have just started retweeting it.

This is a Google Map of towns and who controls them at the moment.

Lots of chatter about Gaddafi getting desperate and doing something terrible soon.

# ? Feb 26, 2011 17:19

Patter Song: Mar 26, 2010; Hereby it is manifest that during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man.; Fun Shoe

Ham posted:

"In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

The Higher Council of the Military Forces

Message No. "22"

Do they need to do the "Military Communique # 22" thing? It just smacks so hard of "junta."

# ? Feb 26, 2011 17:22

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Patter Song posted:

Do they need to do the "Military Communique # 22" thing? It just smacks so hard of "junta."

They're the army (and yes they are the junta, for now anyway) and have a certain standard way of communicating of their decisions. Should they have put it on the Twitter?

# ? Feb 26, 2011 17:39

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Evidence of Gaddafi trying to destroy oil refineries:

quote:

The Guardian's Martin Chulov in Libya tweets: "Went to site of crashed Libyan air force jet today. Pilot refused to bomb oil depots&ejected. One bomb wedged in sand."

# ? Feb 26, 2011 18:06

BIG HORNY COW: Apr 11, 2003

Whenever I see Saif all I can think of is a really tan George Bluth Sr.

THIS, is my demand!

# ? Feb 26, 2011 18:40

big fat retard: Nov 11, 2003; I AM AN IDIOT WITH A COMPULSIVE NEED TO TROLL EVERY THREAD I SEE!!!! PAY NO ATTENTION TO WHAT I HAVE TO SAY!!!

Ham posted:

About yesterday's events: Egyptian Military is apologizing for an unintended use of force

"In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

The Higher Council of the Military Forces

Message No. "22"
To the youth of the Jan. 25th Revolution

An apology, and what we owe you allows it.

The Higher Council of Military forces confirms to the young people of the Jan. 25th Revolution it's dedication to achieving the noble goals of the revolution and that what happened yesterday through the demonstrations of "Friday of Loyalty(?)" is the result of unintended clashes between the military police and the sons of the revolution, and that there hasn't nor will there ever be orders issued to transgress on the sons of this great country and that all possible precautions will be taken to prevent this from happening again in the future.

Higher Council of the Military Forces"

So it looks like today's demonstrations won't be opposed, thank god.

The Egyptian military is reminding me of the Portuguese military during the Carnation Revolution:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution

This is a Good Thing. It's rare that a military coup and a military-run transition is actually benevolent and genuinely dedicated to democracy.

# ? Feb 26, 2011 19:22

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

THE HORSES rear end posted:

This is a Good Thing. It's rare that a military coup and a military-run transition is actually benevolent and genuinely dedicated to democracy.

The thing is, though, that we don't know that yet. In Portugal it was young radicalized officers who overthrew the old farts. In contrast, in Libya it was... young radicalized officers who overthrew the old farts. And the model for the Libyans was (wait for it...) Egypt, where young radicalized officers overthrew the old farts. Well, at least Nasser was young at the time. In all those cases the military promised democracy, but the actual results were something else.

But this situation is nothing like those predecessors, including Carnation Revolution. The army is the old farts, like in the Turkish coups of the past decades. But here the power behind the revolution is not the army, it is the people. The army leadership seems to have understood that the road of Nasser, Sadat and Mubarak has come to its end, but whether they and the people who took it to the streets will agree on the future of Egypt remains to be seen (and what the people who didn't participate in the protests will say). I think the chances are good that the army will let democratic process take over, but it is not completely certain until power is transferred to a civilian government that the army pledges allegiance to.

# ? Feb 26, 2011 19:43

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Apr 29, 2024 16:20

Ewan: Sep 29, 2008; Ewan is tired of his reputation as a serious Simon. I'm more of a jokester than you people think. My real name isn't even Ewan, that was a joke it's actually MARTIN! LOL fooled you again, it really is Ewan! Look at that monkey with a big nose, Ewan is so random! XD

The RAF has evacuated ~150 Brits from the desert areas using 2 x C130 Hercules - this has been confirmed by our Defence Secretary.

The BBC News security correspondent has said the operation involved the use of SAS & SBS also involved dealing with "heavily armed people". The fact this is written as fact rather than "reports suggest" means to me he's got the info from somewhere credible.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12588947

# ? Feb 26, 2011 19:54

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

«‹›3125 »