Mister Roboto posted:Didn't they incorporate that into TFU's storyline? Darth Vader's first mission seemed to be cleaning up on Kasshykkkskkkkkh. One of the few gems of the Holiday Special is the pronounciation of that planet as Kazhook.
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Mar 2, 2011 14:24
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Remember the commercial where Darth Vader fights the Energizer bunny and loses because the batteries in his lightsaber went dead? How does this fit into the official Star Wars canon? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxafIhYFOr0
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Mar 3, 2011 00:52
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that awful man posted:Remember the commercial where Darth Vader fights the Energizer bunny and loses because the batteries in his lightsaber went dead? How does this fit into the official Star Wars canon? G-canon
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Mar 3, 2011 00:56
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What happens to the imperial fleet at Endor? Yeah the command ship crashes and probably some of the destroyers got taken out too, but I remember there being at least dozens of them. Did they all get caught in the Death Star's explosion?
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Mar 3, 2011 01:00
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Fledgling Gulps posted:What happens to the imperial fleet at Endor? Yeah the command ship crashes and probably some of the destroyers got taken out too, but I remember there being at least dozens of them. Did they all get caught in the Death Star's explosion? All the commanders got bummed out that the Emperor was dead so they all flew away to become warlords.
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Mar 3, 2011 01:04
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Fledgling Gulps posted:What happens to the imperial fleet at Endor? Yeah the command ship crashes and probably some of the destroyers got taken out too, but I remember there being at least dozens of them. Did they all get caught in the Death Star's explosion?
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Mar 3, 2011 01:14
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Slantedfloors posted:the Emperor no longer subconsciously improving the Imperial crews ability with the Force. This kind of poo poo is what is wrong with the EU.
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Mar 3, 2011 01:21
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omgLerkHat! posted:This kind of poo poo is what is wrong with the EU. Um no, it actually isn't that bad. Timothy Zahn did great.
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Mar 3, 2011 01:24
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I always took that to be the same as Batila's battle meditation.
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Mar 3, 2011 01:26
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KaosFactor posted:I always took that to be the same as Batila's battle meditation. It is.
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Mar 3, 2011 01:26
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Slantedfloors posted:Pellaeon, later to be Grand Admiral Thrawn's protege/bitch, organizes a fighting retreat while taking heavy losses due to the Emperor no longer subconsciously improving the Imperial crews ability with the Force. Although how the hell Pellaeon was giving the orders when their were dozens of higher ranking officers around who could have overruled him is a mystery. I mean pellaeon was basically just some goon who happened to be the 2nd in command of a random star destroyer whose captain bought it during the rebel attack, where did he get the authority to order a retreat?. Not to mention their were supposedly a few grand admirals and even a few normal admirals at the battle who should by rights have assumed command. Now some of it can probably be explained by the higher ranks legging it to grab as much power as they could before the emperors corpse finished cooling but personally I blame it on EU writers not having any idea how a military works and retconning more and more random bullshit into the battle.
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Mar 3, 2011 01:42
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omgLerkHat! posted:This kind of poo poo is what is wrong with the EU. How else do you explain a highly trained fleet with superior numbers retreating from a fight against a ragtag force of Rebels, who they were previously grinding into dust through pure attrition?
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Mar 3, 2011 01:42
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Good (not really) news! We might no longer have the worst sci-fi prequels. Someone's doing Blade Runner prequels.
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Mar 3, 2011 01:45
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Um no, it actually isn't that bad. Timothy Zahn did great. From what we see in the films the Alliance's forces are far, far outnumbered and outclassed by the Empire, and they lose (from what I remember) two capital ships to the death star's superlaser, which means that after DSII blew they had what, Home One and maybe a couple other capital ships and a number of support ships vs dozens of star destroyers (and likely support ships) and their complement of TIEs. The idea that the Imperial Navy is so incompetent that they would suffer heavy losses while retreating from a situation where they outnumber their opponent a dozen to one because THE PUPPETMASTER is gone makes them a laughable non-threat. When your enemy is completely incompetent and a non-threat there is no satisfaction in them losing and no real danger. The implication that the emperor was running EVERYTHING and without him no one can tie their own bootlaces is dumb in the same way that 'Anakin is the chosen one prophesy blah blah blah and everything depends upon him' is dumb. It makes one character way more important than they needed to be. Was the emperor not important enough being a Sith Master who ruled the galaxy with an iron fist? Did they REALLY need to make him also single-handedly responsible for any success the imperial navy had? Battle Meditation as a concept is something I find to be on the level of fanfiction because writing your characters as incompetent except when ONE specific character is there places everything's outcome on one single character. which aside from being silly and mary-sue like, detracts from the need or ability to make decent secondary characters. WhyteRyce posted:How else do you explain a highly trained fleet with superior numbers retreating from a fight against a ragtag force of Rebels, who they were previously grinding into dust through pure attrition? Literally anything other than loving battle meditation. You could have several admirals realize that with the Emperor gone a power struggle will soon ensue and either begin to fight it out (lead up to the warlord of the week stuff that happened in the EU) or retreat back to their respective home systems to prevent that happening. Such a thing isn't exactly unheard of. Or take a 'no one knew what to do because holy poo poo the loving deathstar just blew the gently caress up' approach. Honestly the former approach makes the most sense considering that (apparently) a lot of folks splintered off from the empire to start their own little warlord empires after Endor. It would make sense for those folks to not want to risk their SDs and TIE forces trying to crush the last of the rebels since when you go rogue you can't replace your poo poo easily. With the imperials distracted and/or fighting amongst themselves you now have a plausible explanation for the retreat and even heavy losses on their part. It even leads up to having tons of warlords or the week running around post-Endor. AND it doesn't invoke stupid mary sue battle meditation bullshit. omgLerkHat! fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Mar 3, 2011 |
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Mar 3, 2011 01:52
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omgLerkHat! posted:From what we see in the films the Alliance's forces are far, far outnumbered and outclassed by the Empire, and they lose (from what I remember) two capital ships to the death star's superlaser, which means that after DSII blew they had what, Home One and maybe a couple other capital ships and a number of support ships vs dozens of star destroyers (and likely support ships) and their complement of TIEs. The idea that the Imperial Navy is so incompetent that they would suffer heavy losses while retreating from a situation where they outnumber their opponent a dozen to one because THE PUPPETMASTER is gone makes them a laughable non-threat. When your enemy is completely incompetent and a non-threat there is no satisfaction in them losing and no real danger. The implication that the emperor was running EVERYTHING and without him no one can tie their own bootlaces is dumb in the same way that 'Anakin is the chosen one prophesy blah blah blah and everything depends upon him' is dumb. It makes one character way more important than they needed to be. Was the emperor not important enough being a Sith Master who ruled the galaxy with an iron fist? Did they REALLY need to make him also single-handedly responsible for any success the imperial navy had? Most canon Star Wars force powers are on the level of fanfiction. It's just something you have to deal with. It is a fictional universe after all.
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Mar 3, 2011 01:57
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omgLerkHat! posted:From what we see in the films the Alliance's forces are far, far outnumbered and outclassed by the Empire, and they lose (from what I remember) two capital ships to the death star's superlaser, which means that after DSII blew they had what, Home One and maybe a couple other capital ships and a number of support ships vs dozens of star destroyers (and likely support ships) and their complement of TIEs. The idea that the Imperial Navy is so incompetent that they would suffer heavy losses while retreating from a situation where they outnumber their opponent a dozen to one because THE PUPPETMASTER is gone makes them a laughable non-threat. When your enemy is completely incompetent and a non-threat there is no satisfaction in them losing and no real danger. The implication that the emperor was running EVERYTHING and without him no one can tie their own bootlaces is dumb in the same way that 'Anakin is the chosen one prophesy blah blah blah and everything depends upon him' is dumb. It makes one character way more important than they needed to be. Was the emperor not important enough being a Sith Master who ruled the galaxy with an iron fist? Did they REALLY need to make him also single-handedly responsible for any success the imperial navy had?
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Mar 3, 2011 01:58
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I thought the rebel fleet was close enough to the Imperial fleet that the engagement was at least up in the air, at least until it was revealed that the Death Star was fully armed and operational. Even if you want to remove battle meditation, they'd just lost their head of state, his second in command, and an incredibly valuable and powerful under construction weapon, for what probably seemed to be no real apparent reason to the average Imperial naval officer knee deep in the poo poo. It was probably like the Rebels just suddenly gained the ability to gently caress you in the rear end. At that point everyone probably hosed off in order to regroup somewhere else, and I figure that without the central command of P-Siddy, they just ended up drifting apart. I don't know if it's said, either, but it seems like while there was standardization of equipment, the Imperial navy was probably largely raised from individual sectors, and individual Moffs might have gone 'OK get the gently caress back here until we see what happened, you said EVERYONE DIED? What the space-nuts' The rebels, by contrast, did not fracture and splinter apart, and while the rebel fleet might have been smaller than "the Imperial fleet," it might have been more powerful than individual sector fleets. And after you roll up a few distant Moffs and their forces (which there should have been more of) you get a snowball effect.
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Mar 3, 2011 02:00
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The way I understood it was that it was the end of a 6 year trilogy and the good guys were supposed to win? Jesus.
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Mar 3, 2011 02:09
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Casimir Radon posted:It makes more sense that Palpy was just doing it to assure victory even with the deck stacked in his favor. When he died everyone in the fleet probably started going through withdrawals after suddenly having support they didn't even know they had taken away from them. omgLerkHat! posted:AND it doesn't invoke stupid mary sue battle meditation bullshit.
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Mar 3, 2011 02:22
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Hell, look at it from the position of the Imperial fleet. Here you are, a minor component in an unbeatable trap--the Death Star is invulnerable to attack, it's got a superlaser one-shotting the Alliance capital craft, and the TIEs are nibbling the rest to death while you and the Executor stand there and enjoy the show. The Executor comes under heavy fire, but it's clearly a work of desperation; this is the most powerful warship ever fielded, and it's surrounded by a huge fleet. Then, almost instantaneously, it's taken out. What a blow that would have to be to the rest of the fleet! The Super Star Destroyers were hitherto essentially invincible. While you're reeling from that, the Death Star blows up, taking your sovereign with it. What's your first inclination? "We've still got the advantage of numbers, we can wear them down"? Or is it closer to "holy gently caress they're demons how did they do any of that I've gotta save myself"? Battle Meditation reinforces that, without really cheapening it. You don't have the gentle background vibe saying "you're invincible" going on any more, either. Reeling, the Imperial forces start to see a desertion as one captain loses his nerve, then another, and without any formal announcement, it turns into a rout as the nerve centers of the engagement are ripped away in short order and no one is able to stand up and pull it together.
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Mar 3, 2011 02:24
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Sombrerotron posted:As far as I can remember, that's pretty much how it's explained in one of the Thrawn trilogy books: the sudden disappearance of Palpatine's control left everyone in the fleet disoriented, and in the chaos of battle they didn't really know what to do. The Executor's demise, which I think does in fact happen after Palpatine's death in RotJ, is provided as an illustrative example. It's also demonstrated by C'baoth's control over Veers(?), which effectively results in the destruction of the latter's mind, leaving him little more than a puppet whose body in the end cannot even function without his master's influence.
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Mar 3, 2011 02:28
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ZeeToo posted:Reeling, the Imperial forces start to see a desertion as one captain loses his nerve, then another, and without any formal announcement, it turns into a rout as the nerve centers of the engagement are ripped away in short order and no one is able to stand up and pull it together. It has happened all the time in history. Numerical superiority doesn't mean squat once panic starts to spread.
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Mar 3, 2011 04:14
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Ferrosol posted:Although how the hell Pellaeon was giving the orders when their were dozens of higher ranking officers around who could have overruled him is a mystery. I mean pellaeon was basically just some goon who happened to be the 2nd in command of a random star destroyer whose captain bought it during the rebel attack, where did he get the authority to order a retreat?. Not to mention their were supposedly a few grand admirals and even a few normal admirals at the battle who should by rights have assumed command. Now some of it can probably be explained by the higher ranks legging it to grab as much power as they could before the emperors corpse finished cooling but personally I blame it on EU writers not having any idea how a military works and retconning more and more random bullshit into the battle. In Heir to the Empire I think it's mentioned that the Chimaera was an admiral's flagship and the admiral was killed in the fighting, so when Pellaeon ordered the retreat the fleet thought the orders were coming from the admiral. Although why that means he would continue to command the fleet afterward I don't know. To be honest this is one of the big plot points of Heir to the Empire that really bugs me, would it really have been so hard for Zahn to make Pellaeon an admiral? As for the other officers at the battle I think it's been established that Pellaeon orders the retreat of the main Imperial fleet only after the other grand admirals/admirals have already been killed, surrendered, or split their own personal fleets off to go warlord. So that part at least I don't have a problem with.
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Mar 3, 2011 06:05
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Pallaeon stayed in command because every other admiral took advantage of the anarchy to take things for themselves.
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Mar 3, 2011 06:19
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Not to mention, you're in the nave of a cult of personality dictator who rules by fear. You don't necessarily want to be there. You watch him presumably die. There is a good chance of rebellions breaking out on the ships at Endor.
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Mar 3, 2011 06:24
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KaosFactor posted:Not to mention, you're in the nave of a cult of personality dictator who rules by fear. You don't necessarily want to be there. You watch him presumably die. There is a good chance of rebellions breaking out on the ships at Endor. I'm pretty sure there was open Rebellion on the DS2 during its last moments, you can clearly hear hell let loose with what I assume is Imperials of all kinds fighting to the death for some transport out of there when Luke is dragging Vader to the shuttle.
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Mar 3, 2011 06:27
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Why are there more than 30 posts in this thread every day? This makes me sad 
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Mar 3, 2011 06:45
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SeanBeansShako posted:I'm pretty sure there was open Rebellion on the DS2 during its last moments, you can clearly hear hell let loose with what I assume is Imperials of all kinds fighting to the death for some transport out of there when Luke is dragging Vader to the shuttle.
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Mar 3, 2011 06:48
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So how exactly were strong Super-Star Destroyers? We never see the one in Empire and RotJ actually do anything.
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Mar 3, 2011 06:52
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Ferrosol posted:Although how the hell Pellaeon was giving the orders when their were dozens of higher ranking officers around who could have overruled him is a mystery. I mean pellaeon was basically just some goon who happened to be the 2nd in command of a random star destroyer whose captain bought it during the rebel attack, where did he get the authority to order a retreat?. Not to mention their were supposedly a few grand admirals and even a few normal admirals at the battle who should by rights have assumed command. Now some of it can probably be explained by the higher ranks legging it to grab as much power as they could before the emperors corpse finished cooling but personally I blame it on EU writers not having any idea how a military works and retconning more and more random bullshit into the battle. People getting shot to hell often stop to have Rank and dick measuring contests. When a group is in a panic the first one to say "Follow me" is the one who is in charge for the most part.
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Mar 3, 2011 06:57
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I don't really mind battle meditation or whatever, but maybe we can use a real life analogy. The Death Star 2 is the main HQ of the military and Palpatine and his vice-Emperor are both there. So let's say the President and Vice are both at the Pentagon during war with Iran or something, and all of a sudden the Pentagon is UNEXPECTEDLY nuked to ashes. This means, I believe, our Secretary of Defense takes over. I didn't know his name without googling--without cheating, does anyone here know? I doubt most people do know who he is. I could see panic spreading if we took a heavy loss like that. Now, obviously this is a ridiculous extreme, mainly because America's never been in such a situation. In fact, it's so ridiculous I might even say widespread panic WOULD spread across our military simply because it's so inconceivable. Panicked emails, texts, calls, from civilians to their military contacts, suddenly everyone starts to worry about exactly what's going on, maybe you're just a little on edge from being stationed in the desert for 11 months straight, maybe your lieutenant doesn't seem to know either, you know, I never liked him anyways, maybe it's time to really take control from that smug fucker, etc. Once the first dominoes start to fall... Mister Roboto fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Mar 3, 2011 |
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Mar 3, 2011 07:08
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Speaker of the House, actually. But the point is well made.
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Mar 3, 2011 07:15
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Space-Alexander Haig.
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Mar 3, 2011 07:20
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arioch posted:Speaker of the House, actually. But the point is well made. Yeah, Secretary of Defense is actually after Speaker of the House, I think. Though I only remember this because it was part of the plot of XXX:State of the Union. I always assumed that the Imperials retreated at Endor in a sort of "Well, poo poo, guys," moment. Their big superweapon just bought it, along with their leader and his right hand. My thought was they just fell back to reorganize their leadership, since I highly doubt Palpatine laid out a successor at any point.
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Mar 3, 2011 07:22
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Who really cares? This is exactly the kind of nit-picking that makes the expanded universe stuff so bad. The whole rebellion vs. empire conflict serves only as a backdrop for the story of Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader. The Emperor was, in terms of the story, the empire. The actual logistics of why the imperial forces turned tail and ran or exactly how thoroughly they were defeated at Endor is irrelevant. That, when you get right down to it, is why the prequels and almost all of the expanded universe stuff sucks, because it's all largely irrelevant. Star Wars, the original trilogy, tells a complete story. With the redemption and death of Vader, the story is over. Continuing the story, either into the future or the past, is pointless. If there really, honestly had to be an expanded universe to Star Wars, it should have focused on other stories entirely unrelated to the Skywalkers.
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Mar 3, 2011 07:58
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Phylodox posted:Who really cares? This is exactly the kind of nit-picking that makes the expanded universe stuff so bad. The whole rebellion vs. empire conflict serves only as a backdrop for the story of Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader. The Emperor was, in terms of the story, the empire. The actual logistics of why the imperial forces turned tail and ran or exactly how thoroughly they were defeated at Endor is irrelevant. I don't think you "get" the Star Wars Questions megathread.
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Mar 3, 2011 08:02
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Locutus Of Bored posted:I don't think you "get" the Star Wars Questions megathread. Okay, let me give it a try, then: IG-88 did it.
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Mar 3, 2011 08:04
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Phylodox posted:Who really cares? This is exactly the kind of nit-picking that makes the expanded universe stuff so bad. The whole rebellion vs. empire conflict serves only as a backdrop for the story of Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader. The Emperor was, in terms of the story, the empire. The actual logistics of why the imperial forces turned tail and ran or exactly how thoroughly they were defeated at Endor is irrelevant.
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Mar 3, 2011 08:10
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Phylodox posted:Who really cares? This is exactly the kind of nit-picking that makes the expanded universe stuff so bad. The whole rebellion vs. empire conflict serves only as a backdrop for the story of Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader. The Emperor was, in terms of the story, the empire. The actual logistics of why the imperial forces turned tail and ran or exactly how thoroughly they were defeated at Endor is irrelevant.
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Mar 3, 2011 08:14
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Phylodox posted:Okay, let me give it a try, then: No one here REALLY stays up at night angry about the EU (at least, I hope not), so I assume everyone's just having fun nerding it up and chatting about their favorite series. I just like lightsabers and such. Also, looking up the Secretary of Defense gives me this awesome quote: "In my opinion, any future defense secretary who advises the president to again send a big American land army into Asia or into the Middle East or Africa should 'have his head examined,' as General MacArthur so delicately put it." — Defense Secretary Robert Gates, speaking at West Point Star Wars : helping us learn about our military chain of command.
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Mar 3, 2011 08:16
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