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Sirtequote:Pro- and anti-Gaddafi tribes have clashed in Gaddafi's hometown of Sirte - formerly reported as a stronghold of the de facto Libyan leader. More details to follow. Today is going to be very interesting if the rebels keep up their attack on Sirte. If Sirte falls they'll be able to link up with the rebels in Misurata, and Tripoli will be in their sights. New page, so here's the live blogs BBC AJE Guardian This is a map of Libya from AJE showing where the cities are: 
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Mar 5, 2011 12:45
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Sirte Seems the fighting in Sirte may be infighting between the local population, not the rebel forces reaching there quote:The inter-tribal fighting in Sirte was sparked by one tribe refusing to support Gaddafi's fighters in Ras Lanuf yesterday, Al Jazeera Arabic reports. This has reportedly opened a political divide overnight in the city, which is home to 135,000 people - and which houses several government ministries. This sounds like bad news for Gaddafi, if he can't count on the Sirte populace to be 100% loyal then the Gaddafi forces are going to have to deal with that and the rebel attack.
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Mar 5, 2011 12:49
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AJE article on the attacks/counter-attacks:quote:Muammar Gaddafi, the Libyan leader, has launched a fresh military offensive to retake some of the towns he lost control over the past 18 days. source
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Mar 5, 2011 12:50
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Brown Moses posted:Sirte For anyone who didn't know, Sirte's his hometown, so this is actually pretty big. It was one of the few cities that were that are/were supposed to be loyal to him.
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Mar 5, 2011 12:59
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Brown Moses posted:The security services in Egypt are systematically destroying the evidence of their crimes: I don't know if this story was linked in a previous thread on the subject, but I remembered reading it before Mubarak stepped down. Turns out the writer (writing for The Economist) posted it 19 days before Mubarak's resignation, and was likely recounting events from even earlier. To him it was the sign that Mubarak was finished. I'll quote the first three paragraphs, which are the relevant ones, full article here: http://www.economist.com/blogs/newsbook/2011/01/unrest_egypt_0 quote:The battle of Cairo is over, or is it?
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Mar 5, 2011 13:03
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Jut posted:What mustard gas? According to this wiki areticle on the Chemical Weapons Convention Libya has destroyed only 4% of its admitted stockpiles of Chemical weapons. According to the terms of the convention, they have until 25th April THIS YEAR to get rid of the other 96%. Hope CQ doesn't remember this and have a brain wave.
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Mar 5, 2011 13:07
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Ras Lanufquote:Libyan rebel Usama Ahmed, wounded in the fighting at Ras Lanuf on Friday, tells AFP the rebels only had Kalashnikovs to fight against organised, heavily armed Gaddafi forces. Speaking from his hospital bed in Ajdabiya, he says: "At the moment I can't do it but once I recover I will return to the front to advance on Tripoli." quote:Al Jazeera's correspondent in Ras Lanuf tells us that a large number of Libyan military figures have switched sides and have joined the armed opposition groups. Zawiyah quote:Sky News correspondent Alex Crawford, who is in Zawiya, says two brigades - including the elite Khamis Brigade led by Col Gaddafi's son - are attacking the coastal town with tanks and artillery. There are sporadic outbreaks of gunfire on the Tripoli-side of the city, fairly close to where government forces are deployed, although they have been less frequent in the past hour, she adds. She has heard reports of numerous casualties, including one woman who was shot through the head with a 14mm round while driving to her mother's house. She is now in intensive care. Alex Crawford says at least 11 people have been killed, but that the figure is probably higher. quote:As many as 35 of Gaddafi's tanks are approaching Az Zawiyah from the city's east, Al Jazeera is told.
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Mar 5, 2011 13:46
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Libyan rebels seem to have their own Mad Max the Road Warrior. They just can't lose now. 
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Mar 5, 2011 14:17
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AJE's reporting that Saudi Arabia is declaring a ban on all marches and protests.
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Mar 5, 2011 14:19
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Scorchy posted:AJE's reporting that Saudi Arabia is declaring a ban on all marches and protests. Honestly I'm surprised they didn't have one in place already. If poo poo gets bad there the house of Saud will make CQ look like Mohandas loving Gandhi.
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Mar 5, 2011 14:37
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Zawiyahquote:An eyewitness in Zawiya has also just told Reuters by phone that Gaddafi tanks are shelling the centre: "The attack has started. I see more than 20 tanks." A second resident said Gaddafi's forces were using "tanks and mortars". quote:A witness in the western Libyan city of Zawiya tells the AFP news agency that government tanks have entered Zawiya and are firing on buildings. quote:Sky News correspondent Alex Crawford, at Zawiya's hospital, says that within the last 10 or 15 minutes government tanks loaded with soldiers have been rolling in and heading towards Martyrs Square in the centre of the city. She says there was a heavy artillery bombardment lasting about 10 minutes. Since then, the sound of gunfire has died down. Casualties have started arriving at the hospital - many with serious injuries, including a young boy of about 10 whose body peppered with bullets, she adds. There are also reports that government forces have been taking away bodies on the streets to minimise the number of known casualties. Clearly a battle is going on for Zawiya, she concludes.
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Mar 5, 2011 16:12
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Narmi posted:They destroyed three tanks, captured two more as well as some APCs and possibly anti-aircraft guns, and have several pro-Gaddafi soldiers who've surrendered, so it's more than just "overenthusiastic cock waving." You don't know any more than I if the PG forces were forced out, or pulled out of their own accord. You don't even though that holding the city is one of the PG objectives, rather than just harass it and keep the inhabitants scared. The latter seems the safest option at the moment.
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Mar 5, 2011 17:41
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What exactly would harrassing the inhabitants achieve? The city is a hostile stronghold in the middle of the territory he controls, Gaddafi "letting" it continue to be by the rebels makes about as much sense as tranquilizers in the water.
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Mar 5, 2011 17:49
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Wiz posted:What exactly would harrassing the inhabitants achieve? The city is a hostile stronghold in the middle of the territory he controls, Gaddafi "letting" it continue to be by the rebels makes about as much sense as tranquilizers in the water. It takes time to move forces, and if he doesn't have enough in the area to clear the city the best option he has is to harass the line until the cavalry shows up. It's common military strategy.
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Mar 5, 2011 18:02
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VikingSkull posted:It takes time to move forces, and if he doesn't have enough in the area to clear the city the best option he has is to harass the line until the cavalry shows up. It's common military strategy. We were talking about his objective towards the city though, which is obviously to take and hold it, even if that wasn't necessarily the objective of this particular attack. Also, it seems a little odd to commit an armored brigade against the city center if you're not trying to take it, rather than just shelling them from a distance, but I will admit to not knowing a whole lot about military tactics.
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Mar 5, 2011 18:06
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Wiz posted:We were talking about his objective towards the city though, which is obviously to take and hold it, even if that wasn't necessarily the objective of this particular attack. It really doesn't seem to make sense at all. I tend to agree with your suspicion (?) that the earlier attack was an attempt to soften Zawiyah up for taking later (now?).
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Mar 5, 2011 18:16
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Zawiyahquote:A resident of Zawiya tells the AFP news agency: "The tanks are everywhere in the city and are opening fire on houses. I saw at least seven speed outside my house and the shelling does not stop. Pray for us." quote:A doctor in Zawiya has told Sky News the city is being starved into submission, with supplies of food, fuel and medicine cut off. quote:Hussein, the Zawiya resident who has been updating the BBC about the situation there, says Gaddafi forces have not been able to take over the square despite their tanks Ras Lanuf quote:An al-Jazeera correspondent in the eastern city of Ras Lanuf says pro-Gaddafi forces have retreated westwards to the area of Wadi al-Ahmar, 140km (87 miles) from Misrata. The rebels are regrouping and are preparing to move towards Wadi al-Ahmar and then the Gaddafi stronghold of Sirte, he adds. quote:The al-Jazeera correspondent also says there are reports that a rift has emerged in Sirte between the al-Firjan tribe and the al-Qadhdhafa tribe, to which Col Gaddafi belongs. Twenty soldiers from the al-Firjan were tied up and shot dead by members of an internal security brigade in Ras Lanuf when they refused to open fire on the rebels, the reports say. quote:Anonymous resident in Bath, UK, writes: "Libya's main refinery is located at Ras Lanuf with secondary refineries at Zawiya and Tobruk. If the freedom fighters can hold these places they can, given time, starve the regime of fuel as none can be imported. This would paralyse the regime's land and air forces and give the freedom fighters a major strategic advantage." quote:Anonymous resident in Bath, UK, writes: "Libya's main refinery is located at Ras Lanuf with secondary refineries at Zawiya and Tobruk. If the freedom fighters can hold these places they can, given time, starve the regime of fuel as none can be imported. This would paralyse the regime's land and air forces and give the freedom fighters a major strategic advantage." quote:Report of a jet shot down near Ras Lanuf. "I saw with my own eyes a downed plane and two dead pilots... [still] strapped into seats," Ahmed Harram, an unarmed rebel supporter, told Reuters. "It was a fighter plane." quote:Rebels are engaging with government forces at Bin Jawad, the BBC's Nick Springate reports from Ras Lanuf. quote:A veteran soldier who is siding with the rebels has told AFP in Bin Jawad that the speed of the advance west towards the city of Sirte will depend on reinforcements and the weather. A dust storm has drastically reduced visibility in the area, the news agency's correspondent says. He adds that Bin Jawad is a small settlement - "two restaurants, shacks and houses". But it is just 150km (95 miles) from Sirte. Tripoli quote:CNN's Nick Robertson in Tripoli tweets: "E Tripoli suburb of Tajura, scene of clashes betwn police&protesters Friday, was calm on surface when we drove through today" Sirte quote:Why would Sirte be such a prize for the rebels? "If Benghazi [rebels] can expand down into the Gulf of Sirte... they've got a very good shot at independence at the least - or maybe even overturning him [Col Gaddafi] at the most," Peter Zeihan, an analyst with the US-based Stratfor think tank, tells Reuters. The fight is likely to be tough because the city is psychologically important: it is not only where Col Gaddafi was born but a place he has fashioned into a second capital designed in his own extravagant image, the agency notes. The centre-piece is the Ouagadougou conference centre, a huge marble-lined hall where Gaddafi hosts summits of foreign heads of state. Col Gaddafi has a tent complex on the beach nearby where favoured leaders are invited to spend the evening. Around the summit complex Turkish workers have been building luxury villas and a marina where, during one summit, a huge motor yacht with a helicopter landing pad on its stern was moored. quote:Opposition group Libyan Youth Movement tweets: "Al Arabia TV, Caller say thousands are moving towards Sirte from Beni Walid to besiege gaddafi forces and their mercenaries #Libya #Feb17"
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Mar 5, 2011 18:29
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Wiz posted:We were talking about his objective towards the city though, which is obviously to take and hold it, even if that wasn't necessarily the objective of this particular attack. His objective is definitely to take and hold, but I agree with the sentiment that he may be launching small attacks just to keep the rebels occupied. It's hard for them to organize as one unit that way, and if he can do that in the rebel held areas he can consolidate his power base to begin a counter attack. Also, running an armored column into and out of a city isn't uncommon. It's likely it was a strong probing attack to test rebel defenses. With it being repulsed, the loyalist commanders have a clearer picture of the fight on the ground and can adjust accordingly. The US did this to Baghdad during the 2003 invasion. The 3rd Infantry Division made what was called the "Thunder Run" as a probing attack that quickly turned into a rout and the next day American forces began pouring into the city. e- or Loyalist forces are a bunch of total gently caress ups, it's more probably that Seizure Meat fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Mar 5, 2011 |
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Mar 5, 2011 18:41
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If they roll those tanks through town with limited infantry that WILL be overpowered
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Mar 5, 2011 18:43
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Wiz posted:Also, it seems a little odd to commit an armored brigade against the city center if you're not trying to take it, rather than just shelling them from a distance, but I will admit to not knowing a whole lot about military tactics. Reports like these are usually so sketchy on details and skewed on facts that it's hard to really tell what has happened. For example, when ordinary people say 'tank', they may mean just about anything from an armoured car to a self-propelled gun: they all are big scary vehicles with guns. But for a serious tactical analysis it is important to know if the vehicles in question are, for instance, T-72's (tanks) or BMP-1's (infantry fighting vehicles).
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Mar 5, 2011 18:46
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Nenonen posted:Reports like these are usually so sketchy on details and skewed on facts that it's hard to really tell what has happened. For example, when ordinary people say 'tank', they may mean just about anything from an armoured car to a self-propelled gun: they all are big scary vehicles with guns. But for a serious tactical analysis it is important to know if the vehicles in question are, for instance, T-72's (tanks) or BMP-1's (infantry fighting vehicles). Yeah, this is a good point as well. Even different actual tanks can vary in effectiveness, like if the Libyan military still has T-62s. The difference in a T-62 and T-72 is important to note, but from APC's to MBT's the news calls all armored vehicles "tanks". Seizure Meat fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Mar 5, 2011 |
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Mar 5, 2011 18:51
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VikingSkull posted:Yeah, this is a good point as well. Even different actual tanks can vary in effectiveness, like if the Libyan military still has T-62s. The difference in a T-62 and T-72 is important to note, but from APC's to MBT's the news calls all armored vehicles "tanks". Most of the tanks I've seen pictured have looked like T-55s, which would make sense since they make up the bulk of CQ's armored forces. Those things go down in flames to a single well-placed RPG shot.
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Mar 5, 2011 19:11
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Speaking of RPGsquote:Reports from Zawiya, where fierce battles have been raging throughout the day, suggest civilians have been learning how to use rocket-propelled grenades in order to defend their homes.
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Mar 5, 2011 19:22
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If the tanks shown at the beginning of the footage of the BBC video report here are from outside Zawiya, as the reporter says, then they clearly must be T-72's. There's 11 shown on the video. One Libyan army tank company (modelled after Soviets) has 10 tanks, so there was at least a full tank company in there. If the reports of more than 20 tanks attacking Zawiya are true, then it would mean a whole tank battalion. edit: after the tanks the video shows a rebel checkpoint with a 122mm self-propelled artillery 2S1 Gvozdika blocking the road. This vehicle is no match to any tanks, but its gun would be very lethal against infantry. Nenonen fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Mar 5, 2011 |
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Mar 5, 2011 19:34
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Nenonen posted:If the tanks shown at the beginning of the footage of the BBC video report here are from outside Zawiya, as the reporter says, then they clearly must be T-72's. There's 11 shown on the video. One Libyan army tank company (modelled after Soviets) has 10 tanks, so there was at least a full tank company in there. If the reports of more than 20 tanks attacking Zawiya are true, then it would mean a whole tank battalion. Yeah, those are T-72s I think. 20 T-72s is going to be a tough nut to crack. If they have capable infantry support that's going to be fairly dangerous to the rebels. Of course, urban combat is a great equalizer.
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Mar 5, 2011 19:39
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VikingSkull posted:Yeah, those are T-72s I think. 20 T-72s is going to be a tough nut to crack. If they have capable infantry support that's going to be fairly dangerous to the rebels. A few rolls of concertina wire or something similar is enough to stop tanks dead in their tracks for at least the time for the crew to untangle it from the drive wheels and treads. Creative use of the environment and materials at hand with decent teamwork would be enough to bring down the pro-government forces in an urban environment.
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Mar 5, 2011 19:48
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Wiz posted:What exactly would harrassing the inhabitants achieve? The city is a hostile stronghold in the middle of the territory he controls, Gaddafi "letting" it continue to be by the rebels makes about as much sense as tranquilizers in the water. Keep the inhabitants scared, deprived of sleep, and cut off from supplies. Makes a surrender more likely, or a future offensive less risky. There is no need to take the city if he can neuter it instead. As I previously mentioned too, it keeps rebels away from Tripoli.
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Mar 5, 2011 20:16
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Jut posted:Keep the inhabitants scared, deprived of sleep, and cut off from supplies. Makes a surrender more likely, or a future offensive less risky. Propaganda/morale. He's losing cities left and right, unless he starts winning some fights soon his own troops are going to start doubting their chances.
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Mar 5, 2011 20:18
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Wiz posted:Propaganda/morale. He's losing cities left and right, unless he starts winning some fights soon his own troops are going to start doubting their chances. He's alive and he has Tripoli, which is the most important thing for him now. If he starts throwing away his troops in messy attempts at capturing cities, then he's going to have bigger problems in terms of manpower. It wouldn't surprise me if after a few days attacking Z, and drawing rebels towards the city to defend it, he pulls out the troops to go and harass a poorly guarded city after enacting a 'scorched earth' policy on Z, leaving the rebels to worry about the care of the civilian population.
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Mar 5, 2011 20:26
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Jut posted:He's alive and he has Tripoli, which is the most important thing for him now. If he starts throwing away his troops in messy attempts at capturing cities, then he's going to have bigger problems in terms of manpower. It wouldn't surprise me if after a few days attacking Z, and drawing rebels towards the city to defend it, he pulls out the troops to go and harass a poorly guarded city after enacting a 'scorched earth' policy on Z, leaving the rebels to worry about the care of the civilian population.
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Mar 5, 2011 21:29
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From AJE:quote:*5:59pm Now to see what happens with the protests across the country if they officially sign on to a nominal government.
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Mar 5, 2011 21:34
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quote:Libyan Youth Movement I'm in love with the revolution. Also, how the hell did they do that (if they did)
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Mar 5, 2011 21:42
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Twitter saying Egyptians have sex tapes and poo poo flooding out of the Secret Service building. Hashtag #amndawla http://twitter.com/ShadyMokh http://twitter.com/MahyAshmawy First image is supposedly a sex tape of an arab princess    
Jack Napier fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Mar 5, 2011 |
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Mar 5, 2011 21:57
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brathering posted:I'm in love with the revolution. I'm not sure, but I did see some burning tanks on AJ and more equipment captured by the rebels. I guess CQ's guys are not well trained and turned around when people started exploding. Or they chose to cut in and cut out, just killing people as they went, so they could weaken the city further. Tomorrow will tell, I suppose.
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Mar 5, 2011 21:58
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Jack Napier posted:Twitter saying Egyptians have sex tapes and poo poo flooding out of the Secret Service building. Wow. Also http://twitter.com/MahyAshmawy/status/44128705139843072 is claiming that Mubarak is in Cairo along with his wife and sons.
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Mar 5, 2011 22:04
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quadratic posted:Wow. Can you translate some of the stuff I posted after the edit?
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Mar 5, 2011 22:06
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brathering posted:I'm in love with the revolution. I read on the BBC all the tanks suddenly just left the city, along with the troops. So are those Egyptians in the building at the moment, taking copies of everything or what?
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Mar 5, 2011 22:08
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Brown Moses posted:I read on the BBC all the tanks suddenly just left the city, along with the troops. I'm guessing so. Shredded folder titles  Names, specialties  Shredded mountains   Apparently they used a simple slice, it should be easy to reassemble. I'm hoping they bag it up and take it all.
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Mar 5, 2011 22:17
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AJE article on the second attack on Zawiya:quote:Anti-government fighters in the western Libyan town of Az Zawiyah have repelled repeated attacks by forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi, the Libyan president. BBC's live updates reports a slightly different on Zawiya story however: quote:2050: Residents of the rebel-held city of Zawiya have told the BBC that government tanks, which had been shelling buildings in the centre of the city, withdrew suddenly for reasons that are unclear. At least 30 people are reported to have been killed in Saturday's fighting in the city, during which many buildings were damaged or set on fire. Control of Zawiya is seen as crucial to Colonel Gaddafi's efforts to defend his stronghold in nearby Tripoli So whether they were pushed out or withdrew on their on is somewhat debatable apparently. This was posted a few hours ago, shows how far along the rebels have gotten (doesn't show the western half of Libya unfortunately):  Click here for the full 1440x871 image. Still, it seems like now that they've made headway, they're going to push forward to Sirte. e: found a higher-resolution map e2: posted yesterday's by accident Narmi fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Mar 5, 2011 |
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Mar 5, 2011 22:23
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Jack Napier posted:Can you translate some of the stuff I posted after the edit? Sorry, I'm about to head out and run some errands, but at a quick glance it looks like the first document is some sort of memo about a purchase of airplanes and vehicles. The second one looks like it's regarding the purchase of a metric fuckton of hollow-point ammunition. Here's a video of a torture device they've retrieved, with a guy describing how it was used on him. In Arabic, but you'll get the gist of it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgvIhO1CI8w Also http://www.amndawlaleaks.tk
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Mar 5, 2011 22:25
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