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kimbo305 posted:The only awkward one there is the Swift sedan. True, it looks like Suzuki tried to recycle doors made for some other car. edit: new page needs content! One car I'm looking forward to is the new Pagani Huayra which is still mad as a hatter and now has two turbos bolted on to its Mercedes V12 engine. And by "looking forward to" I mean that we'll probably see it every couple of episodes on Top Gear for the foreseeable future. el topo fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Mar 9, 2011 |
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Mar 9, 2011 00:53
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Holy poo poo. You can argue that it looks like Pug poo poo but no one can deny that the newest Aveo design is infinitely better. That buick interior is sexy too.
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Mar 9, 2011 01:09
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If small sedans invariably look like poo poo, then why not just make them all into hatches, which look somewhere between tolerable and excellent in most cases? Mind you, I sort of like the look of small Lada sedans. They're hideously ugly and boxy, but in an adorable way. Why can't a company that can maintain some degree of quality and safety come up with such a design?
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Mar 9, 2011 05:19
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PT6A posted:If small sedans invariably look like poo poo, then why not just make them all into hatches, which look somewhere between tolerable and excellent in most cases? Because for whatever reason some markets prefer sedans which is why they're almost always available as both. Do you mean this Lada:  or this one:  ?Because they both look anything but adorable to me (if anything that Pug nose Chevy is more endearing)
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Mar 9, 2011 05:37
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dissss posted:Because for whatever reason some markets prefer sedans which is why they're almost always available as both. No, I mean the older ones like the 2101.
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Mar 9, 2011 15:56
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So how does the new FF's front drive work? Can't tell if there's a diff or gears packed in there: http://www.autoblog.com/2011/03/08/video-ferrari-ff-4rm-drivetrain-explained/
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Mar 9, 2011 17:20
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Looks like those clutch packs take the place of a transmission clutch and the differential. The pinion gear drives that big cylindrical housing, the clutch packs control how much of the power gets sent to each front wheel. E: It's got some variation on a gearbox, it just splines directly to the crankshaft, and the clutching/slipping action takes place in the "diff" housing. Sorry if that was unclear. Basically it's an e-diff that also serves as a clutch for the front tranny. Fender Anarchist fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Mar 9, 2011 |
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Mar 9, 2011 17:32
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Fucknag posted:Looks like those clutch packs take the place of a transmission clutch and the differential. The pinion gear drives that big cylindrical housing, the clutch packs control how much of the power gets sent to each front wheel. I don't really see that clutch pack alone being able to multiply engine revs over the car's speed range. Is it really just slipping / not activating at some speeds?
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Mar 9, 2011 17:44
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I am desperately in love with the CRZ, but I'm not sure it's quite right for purchasing right now. Is there any reliable news that an updated model, like a cr-z si, might be released anytime soon? If not, is there a show anytime in the near future where Honda may make such an announcement? Basically I want someone to tell me such a thing will exist in 3 months and it will be $19k new
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Mar 9, 2011 17:59
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There are some small saloons in the EU that seem to be well proportioned:  Is there something about USA crash regs (stronger side impact protection?) that results in the odd shapes for your compact saloons? EDIT: USA car pic for comparison since we've moved on a page 
Mutley fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Mar 9, 2011 |
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Mar 9, 2011 18:29
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The Wonder Weapon posted:I am desperately in love with the CRZ, but I'm not sure it's quite right for purchasing right now. Is there any reliable news that an updated model, like a cr-z si, might be released anytime soon? If not, is there a show anytime in the near future where Honda may make such an announcement? There's been rumors swirling around for a while now that Honda will be releasing a turbo version soon. Have read it on several automotive blogs but don't know how reliable the news really is until Honda announces it. Mutley posted:There are some small saloons in the EU that seem to be well proportioned: That's because those aren't small saloons. Alfa = 183 inches Skoda = 180 chevy = 173 travisray2004 fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Mar 9, 2011 |
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Mar 9, 2011 18:32
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kimbo305 posted:So how does the new FF's front drive work? Can't tell if there's a diff or gears packed in there: Looks like it has two gearboxes 
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Mar 9, 2011 19:23
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el topo posted:Looks like it has two gearboxes It pretty much, yea.
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Mar 9, 2011 19:39
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I guess there can still be legitimate weight savings to be had. But imagine if the front and rear gears didn't shift exactly in time... Can't be soon enough that the front piece goes all eletric ala the 918.
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Mar 9, 2011 19:46
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travisray2004 posted:That's because those aren't small saloons. I guess we have a different opinion of what constitutes a small saloon. e.g. Skoda = 177inch x 75inch Whereas a Typical Saloon is a Ford Mondeo = 191inch x 82inch Once you're down to the size of the Chevy it's into hatchback territory which suit snub noses better. Either way we both agree the Chevy is gently caress ugly and that's the important thing here 
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Mar 9, 2011 19:54
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Mutley posted:Either way we both agree the Chevy is gently caress ugly and that's the important thing here I think that front end would look okay on a hatchback.
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Mar 9, 2011 20:44
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Yeah the Alfa is by no means in the same size class as the Chevy... and the Alfa 159 is arguably the best looking sedan in the past thirty years.
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Mar 9, 2011 21:27
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Mutley posted:Once you're down to the size of the Chevy it's into hatchback territory which suit snub noses better. Thats the problem, even though hatches work better at that size point for some reason some markets prefer even their small cars to be sedans. That Chev competes in the Fiesta and Fabia size bracket
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Mar 9, 2011 22:49
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dissss posted:Thats the problem, even though hatches work better at that size point for some reason some markets prefer even their small cars to be sedans. Now I'm totally confused. The Chevy is 173inches but a Fiesta is way smaller at 155inches. When I said hatch I meant like a VW Golf (which is still smaller than the Chevy!) Or is the Chevy the same price as a Fiesta but made larger, and made really really badly?
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Mar 9, 2011 23:00
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Mutley posted:Now I'm totally confused. Because the sedan adds a chuck onto the back - a Fiesta sedan is a 173.6" according to Wikipedia
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Mar 9, 2011 23:04
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dissss posted:Because the sedan adds a chuck onto the back - a Fiesta sedan is a 173.6" according to Wikipedia A fiesta saloon? MADNESS
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Mar 9, 2011 23:26
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PT6A posted:If small sedans invariably look like poo poo, then why not just make them all into hatches, which look somewhere between tolerable and excellent in most cases? Trunk space? It's really difficult to build a good small sedan, and the best examples - Civic, Elantra - more closely resemble hatchbacks, with a shape that adds a trunk and hides the small size. GM is starting to get it right, but their biggest enemy is controlling the urge to torpedo their own products with god-awful styling. It's obvious what the 'signature' grille is trying to accomplish, but it's having the opposite effect and it isn't what the market is looking for. Mutley posted:A fiesta saloon? MADNESS It loses a bit in the handling and for whatever reason costs 2 grand less but otherwise it's the same car and it looks 'right' the way they did it. Ford put effort into the redesign, something GM has a lot of trouble with: 
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Mar 10, 2011 05:16
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NOTinuyasha posted:It loses a bit in the handling and for whatever reason costs 2 grand less but otherwise it's the same car and it looks 'right' the way they did it. Seriously? I refer you back the the previous page: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3270178&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=41#post389002868 - if thats not an awkwardly proportioned car I don't know what is.
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Mar 10, 2011 11:46
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dissss posted:Seriously? It's the prettiest girl at the ugly ball
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Mar 10, 2011 13:18
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Having had a chance to think I beleive the reason it seems odd to me to have a '3 box' saloon shape at such small sizes is that it become inefficient. The point behind a hatchback is you get to combine the rear passenger and boot space making the car more compact. It's almost like wanting to look like you own a big swanky car but actually only buying a small one. The saloon shape has 'rich exec car' pedigree (at least in the UK usually only execs buy saloons).
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Mar 10, 2011 17:33
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dissss posted:Seriously? Dunno the Fiesta sedan looks like a taller fatter version of the old Chrysler cab forward LH sedans. I think part of the funny proportions game is how much longer the front doors are compared with the rear doors, and the relative distance between A/B pillar and B/C pillar, and the difference in length between hood and trunk. The "long hood short deck" look works really well for coupes, but with 4 doors it just looks silly. In particular, I've never liked the Civic sedan, where the front wheel sits basically at the base of the A pillar. That ridiculously raked windshield (which at the time was advertised as being steeper than that of the NSX) just looks really awkward stuck in front of a dumpy looking sedan with a bulgy rear roofline and arched C pillar/rear window. That roofline is practical because it increases headroom for rear seat passengers, but I think ideally, you want the A-line top silhouette to look at least somewhat describe an arc that is moderately symmetrical on a sedan. A wedgy looking sedan just looks ungainly and unstable due to its length, and I think ideally the angle of the windshield and rear window should be at least somewhat similar so as to maintain a visual continuity between the end of the greenhouse and the trunk itself. Sedans have always been popular in the US. Until the age of the SUV, the sedan was the family car for most Americans. In part, I think it's because Americans prefer a larger car with a longer wheelbase. Also, isn't it true that a sedan tends to be quieter than its comparable wagon/hatch/2box equivalent because of the way the space is divided?
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Mar 10, 2011 20:37
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Cream_Filling posted:Dunno the Fiesta sedan looks like a taller fatter ver I don't really mind it. In those cases, I wish more designers hid the rear door, though, like here: 
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Mar 10, 2011 20:41
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SwashedBuckles posted:It's the prettiest girl at the ugly ball I guess thats why we end up with so many different designs. Personally I think its easily the ugliest car in its class, including that pug-Chevy. Cream_Filling posted:A wedgy looking sedan What do you think of the Peugeot 407? I reckon its the most ungainly sedan on the market:  Cream_Filling posted:Sedans have always been popular in the US. Until the age of the SUV, the sedan was the family car for most Americans. In part, I think it's because Americans prefer a larger car with a longer wheelbase. Also, isn't it true that a sedan tends to be quieter than its comparable wagon/hatch/2box equivalent because of the way the space is divided? Usually the wheelbase is the same between the sedan and hatch versions of a car. As far as refinement goes its not really noticeable these days, although the perception is still there which is why my grandfather bought an Astra sedan over the hatchback.
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Mar 11, 2011 00:05
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dissss posted:
That would be a nice vehicle with that right proportions but the long hood and tiny trunk make it look like a guppy.
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Mar 11, 2011 01:37
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dissss posted:What do you think of the Peugeot 407? I reckon its the most ungainly sedan on the market: I think it has a massive overbite and the front doors look too big compared to the rear. And the black side trim reminds me of a Hyundai Accent, which is not a good thing.
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Mar 11, 2011 16:11
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dissss posted:What do you think of the Peugeot 407? I reckon its the most ungainly sedan on the market: I quite like it, I find it stylish.
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Mar 11, 2011 17:53
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dissss posted:I guess thats why we end up with so many different designs. Personally I think its easily the ugliest car in its class, including that pug-Chevy. Hmm. My personal opinion on the Peugeot 407 is that it pulls it off, somehow, as many of the crazier french designs do. In part I think it's because the increased length compared to, say, the Civic Sedan example from before helps balance out the very stretched out front half of the greenhouse from the stubby back half. That nose still looks suuper long to me, though, but it might not look so long from another angle as there's lots of tricks you can use to disguise a long front overhang. Also, proportionally the trunk is so short (compared to overall length, etc.) that it almost looks like an ancestor of the "four-door coupe" fad. Looking at the Peugeot, I'm reminded again of the famous "cab-forward" Chrysler LH sedans, which take a more balanced approach to proportion in terms of hood/trunk length and front/back window rake. Pretty lovely cars, mechanically, but they were definitely design leaders at the time. The car shown dates back to 1999. Were they ever sold on the continent? I remember hearing that very recently they were licensed to some Russian car company, but I doubt they ever made it further west from that agreement. 
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Mar 11, 2011 18:31
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My mother had a 300M Special, I thought it was quite good but dealing with the Chrysler organization was such a pain in the arse (the dealer we had to deal with was a complete crook) that I will never buy a Chrysler product. And my uncle used to sell the things -- we had built-in family loyalty, but the appeal of making a dishonest buck off the customer completely ruined it, and Chrysler Canada backed the thievin' dealer every step of the way.
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Mar 11, 2011 18:50
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el topo posted:I quite like it, I find it stylish. The 407 Coupé is much better looking IMHO: 
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Mar 11, 2011 19:27
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Cream_Filling posted:Looking at the Peugeot, I'm reminded again of the famous "cab-forward" Chrysler LH sedans, which take a more balanced approach to proportion in terms of hood/trunk length and front/back window rake. e: the 407 does look like the Portofino concept, though.
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Mar 11, 2011 19:29
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kimbo305 posted:How? Cab-forward cars have shortened hoods with relatively reduced front overhang. The front window rake is much more extreme on the Peugeot, counter to the idea of increased cabin space. I'd say that the important figure in making something "cab-forward" is more the axis-to-dash ratio from pushing the passenger compartment far forward near the front suspension than overhangs alone. The comparison I was making was in more general to the LH styling itself, including how there is less windshield rake and a shorter front end/longer rear end compared to the 407. I'd say (maybe) the 407 seems to be one of those cases where the car was designed as a coupe first, then sedanified. That's why the front end and front doors are so long in those cases. btw, here is the Lamborghini Chrysler Portofino concept from 1987, since it was mentioned.  I know the current vogue in styling is for sporty cars to follow the BMW model of short overhangs, pushing the wheels as far out to the corners of the car as possible. And it certainly looks good. But I've also heard that actually one positive factor for GT racing is a design with a long front overhang, since it allows for more downforce to be generated there. I'm not sure how reliable this info is, though.
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Mar 11, 2011 19:59
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Cream_Filling posted:But I've also heard that actually one positive factor for GT racing is a design with a long front overhang, since it allows for more downforce to be generated there. I'm not sure how reliable this info is, though. It makes some measure of sense - with a longer surface, you could mount larger deflectors. You'd have to be careful, though, because the increased moment arm about the front wheel is going to tend to lift the back end of the car up - go too wild and you would need a larger wing in the back and both will increase drag forces substantially.
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Mar 11, 2011 20:30
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KozmoNaut posted:The 407 Coupé is much better looking IMHO: Looks similar to the Dodge Avenger/Stratus and Chrysler Sebring coupe.
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Mar 11, 2011 21:58
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Yeah, but does it weigh 10,000lbs like the Avenger?
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Mar 11, 2011 22:27
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Super Aggro Crag posted:Yeah, but does it weigh 10,000lbs like the Avenger? I think he's talking about this Avenger (1994-2000), which weighed less than 2900 lbs. Not great, but i looked it up and the new Avenger is 3570 lbs with the 4 cylinder. 
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Mar 11, 2011 23:54
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