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I'm guessing a wasteland desert region, somewhere perhaps with an outlaw on a quest for revenge, a woman perhaps with some level of super human powers? Or at least I'm hoping for that, the south needs expanding and the theme would fit, either through the eyes of Ferro Maljinn or those trying to hunt her down.
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Mar 3, 2011 11:47
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I wonder how he's going to introduce guns to the series. They've already got gunpowder and extremely experimental cannons prone to violent self destruction, but that's a long way from cowboys and bang bangs.
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Mar 3, 2011 20:48
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I don't know if there will be guns. Like Jekub said I expect it to be about Ferro Maljinn in the South and at least involve her. It will probably just use a lot of Western tropes and such which would be interesting since he's always made the South out to be an Islamic caliphate-like.
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Mar 3, 2011 21:06
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Logen Ninefingers. William Munny. Boom.
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Mar 4, 2011 03:36
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Hughmoris posted:Logen Ninefingers. William Munny. Boom. All right, I'm coming out. Any man I see out there, I'm gonna...stab him. Any sumbitch takes a shot at me, I'm not only gonna kill him, but I'm gonna kill his wife, all his friends, and burn his drat house down.
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Mar 4, 2011 03:41
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silly posted:I don't know if there will be guns. Like Jekub said I expect it to be about Ferro Maljinn in the South and at least involve her. It will probably just use a lot of Western tropes and such which would be interesting since he's always made the South out to be an Islamic caliphate-like. Extremely minor Heroes spoilers. Really not a spoiler at all buttttttt spoiler tags anyway. Bayaz was experimenting with cannons during the fight. Even if they did violently disassemble themselves (and their operators), it was a clear example of technological progression. I don't see it as too crazy to see some sort of primitive muzzle loader coming in the near future. Dude had a table full of cowboy/gunslinger books, after all. There have to be guns coming. Bummey fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Mar 4, 2011 |
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Mar 4, 2011 06:09
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Bummey posted:Extremely minor Heroes spoilers. Really not a spoiler at all buttttttt spoiler tags anyway. Well yeah I read Heroes and recall that sequence. And I do agree there has to be some larger reason for him including it since it bore really no relevance on the immediate plot of the book. But going from early cannons to what they were using in the West is 700 years of history. Not that that means it can't be done, but it's a rather stark leap. I have thought a lot about fantasy in a gunpowder universe though. I think it would be interesting but it strains a lot of the genre's conventions the further you get away from the more medieval settings.
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Mar 4, 2011 16:17
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silly posted:I have thought a lot about fantasy in a gunpowder universe though. I think it would be interesting but it strains a lot of the genre's conventions the further you get away from the more medieval settings. We are of a singular mind. While gunpowder would be interesting, I hope Abercrombie doesn't introduce it anymore into his stories. In the trilogy, was Logen's age ever mentioned? I always thought of him being in his mid 30's.
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Mar 4, 2011 16:30
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Hughmoris posted:We are of a singular mind. While gunpowder would be interesting, I hope Abercrombie doesn't introduce it anymore into his stories. In the trilogy, was Logen's age ever mentioned? I always thought of him being in his mid 30's. I think he was the same age as Bethod, and Bethod had two sons that were both adults by the end of the trilogy. That'd put Logen between 30-45 I'm guessing.
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Mar 4, 2011 16:32
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silly posted:I have thought a lot about fantasy in a gunpowder universe though. I think it would be interesting but it strains a lot of the genre's conventions the further you get away from the more medieval settings. Adrian Tchaikovsky has planes and (simple) guns and poo poo in his series and it works very well.
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Mar 4, 2011 23:12
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Also remember that the cannons in The Heroes were being developed by the Union where gun powder has been developed and hoarded by the south for some time now. Who knows what those crazy fucks have been trying out in secret all this time.
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Mar 4, 2011 23:54
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Hughmoris posted:In the trilogy, was Logen's age ever mentioned? I always thought of him being in his mid 30's. I'm rereading it, it is and he is.
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Mar 5, 2011 01:29
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Clinton1011 posted:Also remember that the cannons in The Heroes were being developed by the Union where gun powder has been developed and hoarded by the south for some time now. I'd honestly forgotten about that, been a while since I read the trilogy. Could make for some kind of basic flintlocks but I'd hate to see six-shooters.
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Mar 5, 2011 02:31
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I haven't read Heroes yet because I'm finishing up this Locke Lamorra stuff, but I really liked that the technology in the trilogy and BSC were a little bit past medieval level - a little beyond the average level of most fantasy. There was a lot of description in BSC of propaganda posters and we don't even see something as simple as the printing press in most fantasy. It's pretty lame that most fantasy has to be either traditional and medieval or super modern and urban. I like this sort of in-between place that Abercrombie takes it.
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Mar 5, 2011 05:02
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silly posted:Well yeah I read Heroes and recall that sequence. And I do agree there has to be some larger reason for him including it since it bore really no relevance on the immediate plot of the book. But going from early cannons to what they were using in the West is 700 years of history. Not that that means it can't be done, but it's a rather stark leap. I agree that it's a huge technological leap for such a short time period, but at the same time Bayaz had a lot of ties to the Master Maker and seduced the guy's daughter, and practically had free reign of his tower. Given that the MM was a demigodlike being who all but forged souls capable of cutting through reality and creating magical nukes, I don't think that guns would be all that far off. Maybe not firearms as we know them, but who knows that the old magi smuggled out of the tower and has been keeping in secret. If nothing else, it could be a last resort kind of weapon that people only use under dire circumstances for fear of blowing their own limbs off, ala D&D blunderbusses. Would add a lot of tension to gunfight scenes if Abercrombie could randomly blow characters up with their own weapons on authorial whim.
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Mar 5, 2011 06:47
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SammyWhereAreYou posted:I haven't read Heroes yet because I'm finishing up this Locke Lamorra stuff, but I really liked that the technology in the trilogy and BSC were a little bit past medieval level - a little beyond the average level of most fantasy. Sanderson sounds like he might be going there in the future with the Mistborn series, just to keep that on your radar. It's also really good for being rather standard medieval tech fare fantasy. As far as Abercrombie pushing into what appears to be 19th century gun tech, one thing about his world that stood out to me is that it's very, very compartmentalized. The Union, for all that they're supposed to be medieval/renaissance France are horribly ignorant of other cultures, and the other places don't seem to be any better. There could be a wild west teched not-China or something already using 19th century firearms if the gulf between the Union's knowledge of gunpowder and the Gurkish's holds true to other regions'.
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Mar 5, 2011 07:23
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Bummey posted:Adrian Tchaikovsky has planes and (simple) guns and poo poo in his series and it works very well. Paul Kearney's Monarchies of God are also set in a 1500-1600 world, with muzzle-loading smoothbores. Works without a problem. I get actually a bit annoyed that usually Fantasy means you either have to be stuck in a 8-11th century (European) world or in a contemporary world*. Put it into the 15th to early 20th century and I'm twice as eager to read it. Same with Pre-Medieval stuff (Butcher's Codex Alera for example). *I'm not a fan of about 90 % of the Steampunk stuff put out either (Felix Gilman, Vandermeer and Miéville are pretty much the only ones I read. Oh, and Westerfeld's Leviathan recently) Decius fucked around with this message at 08:13 on Mar 5, 2011 |
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Mar 5, 2011 08:09
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You really don't need guns to be a western. It's all about frontiers and wilderness and such. Even when it isn't, it's pretty easy to do a western without guns - Yojimbo for example. Abercrombie talked a lot about reading and watching classic war movies and books to prepare for The Heroes and there weren't exactly Union soldiers with machine guns in the book.
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Mar 5, 2011 11:08
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Just finished The Heroes, and I really liked it. A few thoughts : I know that Abercrombie is showing the futility of war and all that, but I wish he'd create some characters that aren't all miserable as gently caress all the time. Aside from Red Beck, I don't feel that anybody ever gets anything but death or more misery. I really liked the characters of Gorst and Whirrun. Gorst is probably the most miserable of all, but it was fun reading about his unending miserable bitterness and drive to never be weak again. I don't think Whirrun was actually crazy, I got the feeling that he was probably a weird guy, but he hammed up the crazy stuff just to add to his legend. Look at how he acts when somebody corrects him on why they call him Cracknut - he seems to jokingly suggest that knowing why they call him that has ruined his enjoyment of the name. I think he was just a slightly off kilter badass who played up the crazy so his songs would be that much more fearsome. Also, I wish Abercrombie would do a story centered on the adventures of Logen's dozen, considering how most of them seem to be almost legendary badasses. I'd like to see a few of their adventures before Logen was separated from them.
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Mar 5, 2011 19:44
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"Knives, and threats, and bribes, and war?" Bayaz' eyes shone with the lamp light, "Yes?" "What kind of a loving wizard are you?" "The kind you obey." Bayaz is such a baller. Edit: I don't want it to be over!  I hate it when books end!Major spoilers for The Heroes ending Who else called Black Dow's death? The instant he called Shivers "dog" I knew that poo poo was on. Bummey fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Mar 6, 2011 |
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Mar 6, 2011 08:48
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Aye, that bit was quite telegraphed but awesome nonetheless. Dow's posturing to Calder really did get across a sense of power and how loving scary he really was, then Shivers sticks him one. Perfect.
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Mar 6, 2011 13:24
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The longer he drew out that duel, the more obvious his splattery death was. And I wanted Dow to stay King at that point, even though his entire character and everything about him made it obvious he couldn't be Got to: "I was a potter, the clay made my hands so soft, would you believe it? But then the wars came and things... happened" And I'm blubbing like a girl. Then Red Beck goes home and holy poo poo I literally have to stop reading. Think his teasing of the Bloody Nine was a pretty dick move, but ballsy. I know I'm the guy that said "Logen's dead, move on" but gently caress me I miss him. Total return to form, for my money. BSC was a bit of a flabby mis-step (if by no means a bad book) but this is right up there with the bookends of the trilogy, if not quite up to the insane threatening madness of Before They Are Hanged. Craw's whining occasionally got irritating, but other than that I don't think he put a foot wrong. Gorst's monologues were frequently really funny. Looking forward to his next trilogy already.
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Mar 11, 2011 00:38
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Evfedu posted:Got to: Neither of these bits had me actually crying or anything, but the 'potter' bit did give me a lump in my throat. I was surprised by just how moving that simple sentence was.
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Mar 11, 2011 19:42
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I'm a delicate little flower, apparently.
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Mar 11, 2011 21:02
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Rereading this I've thought of a few things (sorry about spoiling everything- it's just in case): Number one: Bayaz coming in at the end and controlling essentially renders all the things Calder did completely pointless; instead of serving Black Dow he's serving Bayaz. Calder is now in exactly the same position as Glokta and essentially had the same plot (casting off an old master only to get an even worse one, the same person for both)- this may be intended but is treading on old ground and for me just seems boring. Also the writing for Bayaz just rubbed me the wrong way; I lost count of the number of times he did things without ceremony or undignifiably, and is described in the prose as talking to people as though they were dogs. Yes we get it Bayaz is bad and rude and totally not the stereotypical wizard but there's no need to go to these lengths, especially when we've already had a whole trilogy focused on him. Number two: There was nothing new in this book. I'm not counting cannons and sandwiches; we're familiar with those. One of my favourite things about the First Law Trilogy was the backstory and the occasional glimpses of the early madness; Aulculus, Fenris the Feared (especially), the Divider, ect. There was nothing like that; we have some very brief glimpses of very odd and rather pointless magic in Ishri, and the Father of Swords was obviously one of Kanedias'. The rest of the book may be strong enough to carry it, but it wouldn't hurt to include a few references to some fantastical elements. Especially considering what Abercrombie has dreamt up in the past. Number three: It was very refreshing to read fight scenes from the point of view of someone who isn't constantly terrified. Yes there was only one of those characters but it was a step in the right direction, as I was starting to get bored reading about people swallowing sour spit and fighting clumsily. It was nice to read fights from a brilliant soldier's point of view (who wasn't a mad demonic spirit). Number four: I'm getting tired of all the weariness. I understand that this is supposed to be dark fantasy, but to my mind dark does not mean dreary. That is all I felt from the campfire scenes (and basically every scene involving Craw); a bunch of people droning on and on about how pointless everything is. It just felt boring. This is one of the main reasons I didn't feel anything when Whirrun's death rolled around; to be honest his dialog with Craw felt the same as all the other dialog scenes with Craw. I hadn't got to know anything about Whirrun except that he appeared mad, and that he's a really good fighter. The book didn't give me enough reasons to care that he died. Also in a book that prides itself on its realistic battle scenes I'm skeptical that Craw could've had a long chat with a man suck through with a spear, while in the middle of a melee. Number five: This is a minor point but what exactly do you need to do to become a Named Man? The details seem vague but if all you need to do is kill four guys then i'd expect half Dow's army is a named man by the end of the battle. When other people talk about Named Men they talk of hardened veterans, not people who've committed one act of bravery. The whole thing seems to change to suit the narration at the time. Number six: Having said all of this I will admit I loved the chapter with the different points of view as each person gets killed, and aside from anything else Abercrombie writes fight scenes better than anyone I know. Also Scale Ironhand may be the greatest name I have ever heard.
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Mar 12, 2011 00:06
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Replies to thoughts: 1. These aren't really the types of books I'd normally reread. I'm not surprised you're disappointed with a bunch of stuff on reread - these are action fantasies, and I'm not sure there's enough depth there to make a reread rewarding. I think I agree with you about most of your complaints, but I still really liked the book as I read it. 2. I totally agree with your feeling, re: Named Men, that the idea of Named Men in this book seems different and less "cool" than what it had been implied to be in the past. And one question of my own: did we ever find out what Jolly Yon Cumber wanted Craw to tell his sons if he died? I was reading kind of quickly by the end and might have missed it. For some reason I was thinking it would be something like "kids, your dad was secretly a homosexual", but I don't think there were actually any points at which that was really suggested.
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Mar 12, 2011 02:13
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onefish posted:Replies to thoughts: The thing about named men is that it's far from an objective measure. The idea that names are earned as much through chance as actions fits thematically with a lot of Joes books. I took Jolly Yon's position to be similar to Craws and Wonderfuls, regretting the decisions that took him away from being a father. Its revealed when Craw leaves that Yon doesn't even know where they are, so I feel that what Yon asks of Craw is his final attempt at establishing a connection to his sons. This is of course without actually taking responsibility.
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Mar 12, 2011 02:38
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I felt Red Beck got his name so easily as a PR move by Reachey. The Northmen have just fought a desperate defence against a larger and, going by the guys in plate armour, better equipped foe and morale's gonna be a little shaky. If a raw recruit can do something heroic and get a Name then surely the more experienced fighters can step up and prove they deserve one as well. In Shivers' case I imagine he was mocked with the name for a good while before his prowess became apparent and, seeing as everyone just called him Shivers anyway, it stuck and morphed into a Name that was respected rather than a form of derision.
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Mar 13, 2011 21:13
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A teenager killing off 4 trained soldiers is a pretty impressive feat and it's well worth a name. Not everyone is Logen slaughtering armies of Shanka. I also have a feeling that getting a name isn't that much of an impressive thing but keeping it is what's important. This is the north anyway, there isn't X requirements before you qualify for something. A lot of the stuff about Calder is perfectly true. It was the point. He was an idiot who would of had his throat slit if it wasn't for Bayaz.
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Mar 14, 2011 02:16
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Just finished The Heroes and enjoyed the hell out of it. Gorst is the epitome of  .Best Served Cold was decent, but didn't quite tickle my fancy the same way the original trilogy and The Heroes did. Can't really place my finger on why.
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Mar 18, 2011 01:12
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Just finished The Heroes and Wise Man's Fear back to back. Enjoyed The Heroes much, much more. Gorst might be one of my favorite fantasy characters ever. Just so absurdly bitter, his running commentary was fantastic. Really excited to see where this whole series goes.
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Mar 21, 2011 02:53
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Just finished it, and it was loving great. Love Gorst, Whirrun, and Calder...Bayaz I'm getting kind of tired of. I want to see some major wizard poo poo go down.
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Mar 27, 2011 19:07
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Comrade Flynn posted:Just finished The Heroes and Wise Man's Fear back to back. Enjoyed The Heroes much, much more. Gorst might be one of my favorite fantasy characters ever. Just so absurdly bitter, his running commentary was fantastic.
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Mar 28, 2011 02:07
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Both write very good prose (although Rothfuss' subject he writes about is often very cringeworthy, like all things involving women and sex), but Rothfuss main character(s) are far more accessible - not better mind you, but Abercrombie's protagonists tend to be hard to stomach at times even for me who loves flawed people.
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Mar 28, 2011 14:10
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Yeah, chiming in on this: 1. Abercrombie hobbles himself awfully by making even the most likable characters objectively monstrous. I wouldn't have it any other way, but of the two characters most easily defined as "good" in his books (up to BSC spoilers): one was a mass-murderer of frankly epic proportions, the other was a revenge-driven incestuous warlord. 2. Rothfuss' prose is so accessible you could give his books to a twelve year old and they'd sit down and read. And because of this he's easily marketable as "Harry Potter for teens/grownups!", which is a drat fine market niche to occupy. I wouldn't worry about Joe, he made it into a top 10 best-seller list over in Blighty with The Heroes, so there's steam building underneath the guy.
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Mar 28, 2011 21:50
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Keep in mind that Abercrombie's marketing budget is probably 1/6th of what's thrown behind Rothfuss, too. As cynical as it might be to suggest, the very fact that you'll see ROTHFUSS, ROTHFUSS, ROTHFUSS everywhere and abercrombie once in a while suggests that more people will probably pick up Rothfuss.
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Mar 28, 2011 22:54
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Evfedu posted:I wouldn't have it any other way, but of the two characters most easily defined as "good" in his books (up to BSC spoilers): one was a mass-murderer of frankly epic proportions, the other was a revenge-driven incestuous warlord. The most easily-defined 'good' character is the Dogman, and of all the characters given points of view or major roles, he is by far the least flawed.
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Mar 29, 2011 13:23
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Quite right. I suppose it's fitting I forgot about him.
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Mar 29, 2011 18:06
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So who plays the Dogman in the inevitable HBO miniseries? My money's on Steve Buscemi. V: poo poo, you got me there. Grand Prize Winner fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Mar 31, 2011 |
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Mar 31, 2011 02:16
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Grand Prize Winner posted:So who plays the Dogman in the inevitable HBO miniseries? My money's on Steve Buscemi. How is he going to play Dogman and Forley at the same time?
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Mar 31, 2011 03:24
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