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New Division posted:It's much easier for low-flying helicopters to escape the notice of a NFZ. In Yugoslavia NATO never managed to adequately interdict them. Then an appropriate regional agency should be supplied with SAMs and given permission to enforce the No-Fly Zone against helicopters. Hey, those Rebel guys look pretty responsible, don't they?
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Mar 16, 2011 02:40
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Slantedfloors posted:Then an appropriate regional agency should be supplied with SAMs and given permission to enforce the No-Fly Zone against helicopters. I see where you're coming from but on the other hand I'm finding a translation to the Afghan-Soviet situation a little absurd. There is always the possibility of a parallel but the motivations and attitudes of the people are quite different from the Taliban. They're not ousting foreigners, they're kicking some one who's been there for forty plus years in the junk. I realize your post might not be referencing this but I've picked it up between the lines from various posters. That said, I think it would be a bit irresponsible to provide more than medical or food aid at the moment. As some one said before it's a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation, what with providing even arms delving into the Meddling West image.
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Mar 16, 2011 03:09
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Slantedfloors posted:Then an appropriate regional agency should be supplied with SAMs and given permission to enforce the No-Fly Zone against helicopters. The rebels actually have plenty of MANPADs, it just sounds like CQ's aircraft are out of range. MANPADs versus helicopters usually ends badly for the people in the helicopter. For example, the Strela-2, which is more likely in use, has a maximum altitude of 1500m and a range of 3700m. That might sound a lot but the service ceiling of something like the MIG-23 is about 18km. One can easily fly in at 1000m and climb up quickly once a lock-on is detected, as well as introduce countermeasures. In contrast, a Mi-26 Hind has a service ceiling of 4.5km, takes considerably longer to climb, and most of its weapons fall into that same range as the Strela-2. Young Freud fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Mar 16, 2011 |
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Mar 16, 2011 04:05
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Young Freud posted:The rebels actually have plenty of MANPADs, it just sounds like CQ's aircraft are out of range. MANPADs versus helicopters usually ends badly for the people in the helicopter. Even that guy in the office chair with the assault rifle could down a chopper.
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Mar 16, 2011 04:07
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Apparently the Bahraini government has begun an extremely bloody crackdown:quote:Bahrain: Bloody Crackdowns on Villages http://globalvoicesonline.org/2011/03/16/bahrain-bloody-crackdowns-on-villages/ Some unconfirmed tweets from Bahrain: quote:@mohdashoor Various reports say that the phone service and electricity are up and down in the whole country. I don't know if Al Jazeera is going to be able to continue with impartial coverage: quote:QATAR: Al Jazeera faces tough questions as Doha backs Saudi troops in Bahrain http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2011/03/qatar-bahrain-saudi-arabia-protests-troops-security.html Let's hope that they're not shut down. Does any country even bother to pretend that they care about human rights watchdogs like HRW or Amnesty International any more? Survey says they do not: quote:Bahrain: Martial Law Does Not Trump Basic Rights http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2011/03/16/bahrain-martial-law-does-not-trump-basic-rights Of course, the thing threatening national security is the protesters, and the thing posing a serious thread to the lives of Bahraini citizens is its government, but does that really matter? Of course it doesn't.
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Mar 16, 2011 05:56
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KurdtLives posted:Even that guy in the office chair with the assault rifle could down a chopper. Unfortunately, the guy in the office chair isn't going to fare well against a Hind unless he is also Solid Snake. If you don't have an actual anti-air weapon, shooting at a helicopter is usually a really bad idea.
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Mar 16, 2011 05:58
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They're using the Mi-25 in Libya, which didn't do to well in Afghanistan against the Mujahideen (of course, those guys probably had more training and also used the terrain to their advantage). Wiki posted:Gunship attrition rates were high. The environment itself, dusty and often hot, was rough on the machines; dusty conditions led to the development of the PZU air intake filters. And of course, the rebels fought back whenever they could. Their primary air-defense weapons early in the war were heavy machine guns and anti-aircraft cannons, though anything smaller than a 23 millimeter gun generally did not do much to the Mi-24. The cockpit glass panels were resistant to 12.7 mm (0.5 in) rounds. The rebels still have AA guns and heavy machine guns (though probably not as much as before), and with some training they could probably take down helicopters. With SAMs the likelihood of downing them increases even more. Apology posted:Apparently the Bahraini government has begun an extremely bloody crackdown: Jesus that's horrible. That State of National Security sounds exactly like the emergency law that every other country with ongoing protests has. It's like they're trying to catch outdo Gaddafi. And I hope Al Jazeera is able to continue fair coverage, but Qatar backing the foreign intervention means it probably isn't going to be easy to do so.
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Mar 16, 2011 06:19
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Narmi posted:Jesus that's horrible. That State of National Security sounds exactly like the emergency law that every other country with ongoing protests has. It's like they're trying to catch outdo Gaddafi. 
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Mar 16, 2011 06:45
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Allatum posted:I realize your post might not be referencing this but I've picked it up between the lines from various posters.
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Mar 16, 2011 06:51
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There are eyewitness reports of protesters in Bahrain attacking Indians and pakistanis. Don't know how true it is but the Shia majority doesn't like pakistanis because a lot of them were quickly nationalized to try to shift demographics, and then treated better than the Shia.
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Mar 16, 2011 07:45
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There are reports that Saadi and Khamis Ghadaffi were burned in the kamikazi attack on Ghadaffi's compound and that Khamis is in critical condition.
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Mar 16, 2011 09:19
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There are reports that most of the reports claiming rebel victories are full of poo poo. I want the rebels to win but the reporting from the rebel side is approaching Gadaffi level of delusions how every city they lose is in fact not lost and they suddenly have an air force that achieves amazing results in a few hours.
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Mar 16, 2011 09:37
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Apology posted:Apparently the Bahraini government has begun an extremely bloody crackdown: There was just a doctor on the radio in the main hospital. She's hiding in a cupboard or store room with 20 other doctors while soldiers sweep the floors and snipers target the windows. They've cut power and the generators are only going to hold out for another hour or so. They've got women in labour there, people on life support, everyone is about to be extremely hosed. The soldiers even turfed everyone out of the ground floor and, for some (sinister) reason, state TV is broadsasting pictures from there saying the hospital is empty.
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Mar 16, 2011 09:41
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Narmi posted:They're using the Mi-25 in Libya, which didn't do to well in Afghanistan against the Mujahideen (of course, those guys probably had more training and also used the terrain to their advantage). The Mujahideen regularly downed Hinds with RPGs. There was a tactic were they used the auto-destruct range on the RPG fuze as an improvised flak explosion.
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Mar 16, 2011 10:09
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Couple of bits of news, no idea how accurate or true they are:quote:02:11 Almanara Media trusted sources are reporting that Sirt’s airport, Al Gurdabiyaa air base and two Gaddafi battalions are currently under the control of the defected 36th battalion and the revolutionaries. quote:Almanara Media02:11 Almanara Media are reporting that 25 soldiers and an Officer from the Khamis battalion have defected near the city of Misratah and have joined the revolution There's no way to confirm any of that information as international news organisations have no access to those locations, so there's no way to know how true this stuff is. The situation in the East is pretty unclear, but it sounds like Benghazi isn't being attacked by land, and it's unclear if they've been attacked by air.
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Mar 16, 2011 10:41
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I picked this up from another forum too:quote:4 in the morning in Libya
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Mar 16, 2011 10:52
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It looks like that at the moment that most news organisations are relying on AP and AFP for their updates on whats going on Libya, which is why all the reports are saying the same thing. It's really impossible to verify what's happening without journalists being there, and it's very unlikely AP and AFP are in Sirte or Misarata at the moment. Really Twitter can't be relied on, as we've no way of knowing who all these "reliable" sources that are "confirming" information are. For all we know those sources could just be other Twitter accounts that have given accurate information in the past, who themselves could be quoting other Twitter accounts, creating an echo chamber. Until video evidence starts showing up I'd take everything being said on Twitter with a huge grain of salt.
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Mar 16, 2011 11:12
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Bahrain is cracking down on protesters with extreme violence, AJE has a Live blog here.
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Mar 16, 2011 11:16
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Brown Moses posted:It looks like that at the moment that most news organisations are relying on AP and AFP for their updates on whats going on Libya, which is why all the reports are saying the same thing. It's really impossible to verify what's happening without journalists being there, and it's very unlikely AP and AFP are in Sirte or Misarata at the moment. Even worse, more (if not most) journalists will be fleeing Libya in the next few days as Gaddafi gets near Benghazi.
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Mar 16, 2011 11:42
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Pedrophile posted:Well if these dictators have learned anything it is that foreign soldiers won't defect if they aren't shooting at their own people. This has been common knowledge since before the Romans.
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Mar 16, 2011 11:45
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Brown Moses posted:It looks like that at the moment that most news organisations are relying on AP and AFP for their updates on whats going on Libya, which is why all the reports are saying the same thing. It's really impossible to verify what's happening without journalists being there, and it's very unlikely AP and AFP are in Sirte or Misarata at the moment.
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Mar 16, 2011 11:49
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Looking at todays reports it seems the Gaddafi's forces are currently heavily shelling the city they claimed to have captured last night, which suggests it's not quite as captured as the Gaddafi forces are claiming.
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Mar 16, 2011 11:49
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The-Mole posted:This has been common knowledge since before the Romans. Reinventing the wheel over and over again is pretty much humanity's favourite pasttime.
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Mar 16, 2011 11:49
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Namarrgon posted:Reinventing the wheel over and over again is pretty much humanity's favourite pasttime. but this time it's shiny
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Mar 16, 2011 11:52
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Hezbollah, Moqtada al-Sadr, and Iran have all condemned the Bahrain crackdown. Makes me wonder if one of them will interfere. edit: oh geez, the Bahraini government is describing their operation as a cleansing Xandu fucked around with this message at 12:16 on Mar 16, 2011 |
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Mar 16, 2011 12:12
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Pretty sure you are going to see a rise in terrorism in Bahrain after this.
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Mar 16, 2011 12:19
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Brown Moses posted:Bahrain is cracking down on protesters with extreme violence, AJE has a Live blog here. Bringing in foreign troops by the request of an unpopular government to quell popular protests sounds like something straight out of the Soviet Union playbook. I wonder how this is going to play in Iraq. The Iraqi Shia must feel massive sympathy towards the Bahraini protestors, having been through the oppression by a minority and the massacres themselves. I suspect the impact will be huge.
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Mar 16, 2011 12:25
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Even in isolation these events are terrible, and risk all sorts of consequences, but as part of events happening across the Middle East they could have even more consequences. It's the first time the protests have been split so clearly down religious lines, and will be viewed across the Muslim world as Sunni on Shi-ite violence and oppression.
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Mar 16, 2011 12:28
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It's still amazing to me that at New Years, every single one of these states was operating 'normally'.
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Mar 16, 2011 12:34
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Yeah, there may be a substantial Shia-backed rebellion in Bahrain. Hence the pre-emptive move of sending in foreign troops and armor. I hope the Shia get the rights and freedom they deserve.
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Mar 16, 2011 12:35
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Several news sources and twitter feeds are reporting that Shia protesters attacked a university and a hospital and are attacking people in the street both sides look untrustworthy at the moment Edit: not to mention completely conflicting Libya reports it's getting confusing to gauge situations
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Mar 16, 2011 13:06
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdkZJqqmKCo For one fleeting moment, every one of these people thought they were going to be free, for one small moment they thought that they can finally vote in their representatives, have fair trials, have jobs, have decent education, have an opportunity to build their country and use it's vast oil reserves to turn this loarge land with a small population into something amazing. Very soon, they will all be dead. or wishing they were. I feel like crying.
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Mar 16, 2011 13:15
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The UN envoy sent to investigate the situation in Libya went to Zawiya, called Gaddafi out on having "liberated" the town and it being full od his followers. This isn't the Jordanian guy Ban Ki-moon sent, although they might be part of the same group, so I'm not sure how much weight his report holds. Ban Ki-moon guy met with Libya's Foreign Minister and basically told them to stop dicking around.quote:UN Libya envoys see destruction, urge end to fighting source Xandu posted:Even worse, more (if not most) journalists will be fleeing Libya in the next few days as Gaddafi gets near Benghazi. It's sad, but I can't blame them. I know MSF has already pulled its teams out of the est due to the insecurity as well (they've also tried to get into Libya from Tunisia but were barred entry by Libyan authorities), and I don't think news agencies will be too keen on letting their guys stay much longer either. Reporters have already had problems going out in the west if they don't have a government guide to take them on guided tours, and reporting from the east seemed to be the only way they could move about freely. Pretty soon there's only going to be propaganda (from either side, then from only one) coming out, like we're already starting to see. Narmi fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Mar 16, 2011 |
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Mar 16, 2011 13:15
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Aw jeez, why did I accept a job in Bahrain right before this all happened? Apparently the guys who deliver bottled water to the water coolers here in my office are no longer delivering. Hooray, no water in the office! I've heard talk around the office that there's some checkpoint and/or barricade type stuff up in parts of Manama. I haven't seen any of it yet since I live pretty close by, but still worrisome. Well, I've stocked up on Spam and bread. I just want things to settle down so I can properly get to work at my relatively new job here!
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Mar 16, 2011 13:57
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I'm sure once they've finished shooting all the protesters your water deliveries will return to normal, no need to worry.
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Mar 16, 2011 14:01
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Brown Moses posted:I'm sure once they've finished shooting all the protesters your water deliveries will return to normal, no need to worry.
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Mar 16, 2011 14:27
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:No water in a desert country where the tapwater is unsafe is a pretty big deal You know what else is a big deal? A persecuted religious group being targeted by what their government is officially terming a "cleansing". But, yeah. Water bottles. Important.
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Mar 16, 2011 14:31
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Al-Saqr posted:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdkZJqqmKCo And nobody will call out the Saudi goverment on their horrible atrocities, because of their massive oil production. Nobody will try to stop them. They are untouchable.
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Mar 16, 2011 14:31
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Brown Moses posted:I'm sure once they've finished shooting all the protesters your water deliveries will return to normal, no need to worry. Those uppity Muslims getting in the way of my paycheck!
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Mar 16, 2011 14:32
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I have to say, that goon has clearer sense of priorities (I said clearer, not better) than most people I know in person, assuming that it isn't just a clumsily-planted attempt at astroturfing. Also, anyone know the "comedic sociopathy" trope? Well, turns out that this -- whether that goon's priorities or the going-ons in the Middle East -- is what that sociopathy actually looks like.
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Mar 16, 2011 14:48
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