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pr0k posted:I think it's pretty safe to say that more or less, the entire western hemisphere fails to understand that the entire middle east, indian subcontinent, and most of africa operates at tribal, not national, levels. It took us a good few years to get a dude in charge of our war operations who understood there different kinds of Muslim, I think 'fails to understand' is the most tactful way to put it.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:01
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DevNull posted:Sorry, it was someone else that said "non-bloody tyrant" which I think was somewhat confusing. He edited his post to make it less confusing. I think a few of us were trying to figure out what he was trying to say. No worries, we were both responding to the same guy.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:02
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I don't know much about Libya, but there are quite a few people saying that this is basically tribal warfare, not some sort of democratic uprising against an autocratic dictator. For instance: http://www.sailanmuslim.com/news/libya-tribes-and-islam-whos-fighting-whom-by-ameen-izzadeen/ So what happens when our new friends start massacring the Qadhafa tribe? Or the new leader is just a new Gaddafi (but from a different tribe)? Do we actually have a good idea of wtf will happen after we blow up a bunch of poo poo over there? It doesn't feel like it at all. Feels like we are running behind the Europeans (specifically France) in this, and doing all their dirty work for them. As if France has ever stopped being involved in ugly and disgusting poo poo in Africa. Its almost their specialty. So I don't think their motives in pushing for this are entirely altruistic. While we ignore everything our Saudi Arabian friends are doing to suppress what might be actual democratic movements.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:02
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Yea I love all the 'a heh, heh, FRANCE is beating us!' as if they haven't been public enemy number 1 in most African and Caribbean nations and have been rumbling about doing some sketchy poo poo in Middle Eastern nations near them for a good while now.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:05
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While I'm not willing to claim I have any clear idea what Libya will be like at the end of this whole affair, I am more than willing to claim that leaving the rebels (and the rest of the Libya) to Gaddafi's tender mercies is not going to be preferable option.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:05
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Stroh M.D. posted:I was fearing that, so I've tried to stay away from US media. Looks like media fails us yet again, if that's the case. I think it would have been best if we were there for support, but did not begin lobbing hundreds of 1.5 million dollar cruise missiles. We (US) really should have just been in the background in the case things went south for the euros. I think I gave my view of it before. We needed to either state plainly that we are in it for the long haul, with the goal being an end to Gadaffy (yes, that would have meant "war"), or we should have stood in the wings. All in or all out. None of this lobbing of cruise missiles, while the euro partners (who are arguably in the lead) are taking care of business. This smacks of one-upping. Young Freud posted:Looks like Medvedev is not Putin's poodle. That is awesome. mrfart posted:Yey, our belgian f16's started flying missions over lybia a couple of hours ago. Do you have a link to your flag? I am uncertain what you would have shedding a tear for it. E:FB Cartouche fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Mar 21, 2011 |
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Mar 21, 2011 18:05
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Baddog posted:I don't know much about Libya, but there are quite a few people saying that this is basically tribal warfare, not some sort of democratic uprising against an autocratic dictator. At this point, the only arguments for that happening is more or less racist scaremongering. So far, reports of how the NTC has been treating captives have been positive (with the occasional exception of a few mercenaries, but it's not like they had any rights to begin with) It looks like they don't want to make the world regret supporting them. And the warfare hasn't been tribal, the revolt has had the most support in the east because that region suffered the worst under Kadaffi. And mind you, Misrata is in the west. Also, I wouldn't listen to a source that writes: quote:Preparing to pitch camp in the bloody desert is the imperialist West which, salivating over Libya's oil, is pushing for a United Nations approved no-fly zone as part of its plan to invade the country on the pretext of humanitarian intervention.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:09
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Darth123123 posted:And the loyalists strap civilians on top of the tanks. Why wouldn't they do this as deranged it sounds? No worse than shooting AA into peaceful protests. AJE just posted this: 
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Mar 21, 2011 18:09
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Contraction mapping posted:I concur, that is the best answer to most questions. However, from time to time the outcome of meddling in the affairs of others is both preferable and morally superior to simply staying out of it. I'm sure many South Koreans and Holocaust survivors would agree. No man you don't understand, this white line we drew on the globe means we can't help any of the people on this side. Clearly they have to do anything on there own.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:10
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Young Freud posted:Dmitry Medvedev, the Russian president, has slammed prime minister Vladimir Putin's comments on military action against Libya as "unacceptable"  Seems like he's learning who's boss.Pretty tempted to post the Russian Masters EX video.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:12
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Namarrgon posted:No man you don't understand, this white line we drew on the globe means we can't help any of the people on this side. Clearly they have to do anything on there own. I never made any geographic qualifiers, we should not meddle in any independent conflicts. If loving Canada was going through this I'd say the same. It's not our place to go barreling in with bombs blazing to 'fix' things, honestly I would have thought that after Kosovo and all that doesn't need to be said.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:13
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Bloopsy posted:AJE just posted this: What is that?
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Mar 21, 2011 18:14
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Baddog posted:I don't know much about Libya, but there are quite a few people saying that this is basically tribal warfare, not some sort of democratic uprising against an autocratic dictator. Who knows what it will be, but the fact is it did start as a democratic uprising against an autocratic dictator in the spirit of Tunisia and Egypt. Which is about the best drat situation you can hope for for reform in the Middle East, driven by the natives.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:14
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Maybe it was caught before but Odyssey Dawn = O.D., someone was having fun at the drugged rebels expense!
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Mar 21, 2011 18:15
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shotgunbadger posted:I never made any geographic qualifiers, we should not meddle in any independent conflicts. If loving Canada was going through this I'd say the same. It's not our place to go barreling in with bombs blazing to 'fix' things, honestly I would have thought that after Kosovo and all that doesn't need to be said. Complete and unequivocal State sovereignty?
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Mar 21, 2011 18:16
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shotgunbadger posted:I never made any geographic qualifiers, we should not meddle in any independent conflicts. If loving Canada was going through this I'd say the same. It's not our place to go barreling in with bombs blazing to 'fix' things, honestly I would have thought that after Kosovo and all that doesn't need to be said. So, isolationism, in other words?
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Mar 21, 2011 18:16
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Namarrgon posted:No man you don't understand, this white line we drew on the globe means we can't help any of the people on this side. Clearly they have to do anything on there own. Despite being run by different people at different times with different concerns, all government actions must be consistent and policies can never change.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:16
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shotgunbadger posted:I never made any geographic qualifiers, we should not meddle in any independent conflicts. If loving Canada was going through this I'd say the same. It's not our place to go barreling in with bombs blazing to 'fix' things, honestly I would have thought that after Kosovo and all that doesn't need to be said. What about when civilians are being massacred and they specifically ask for intervention?
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Mar 21, 2011 18:17
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shotgunbadger posted:I never made any geographic qualifiers, we should not meddle in any independent conflicts. If loving Canada was going through this I'd say the same. It's not our place to go barreling in with bombs blazing to 'fix' things, honestly I would have thought that after Kosovo and all that doesn't need to be said. So what you're saying is that if a dictator decides to take out his own rage on unarmed population with AA guns it is morally unjustified to step in? Because said dictator is the authority in a sovereign nation? You know, hypothetically.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:23
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Round-up from the Guardian:quote:The New York Times journalists detained in Libya have been released, the paper has said. quote:Syria's media has given extensive coverage to events in Libya. While reporting the facts, it has led with the views and speeches of Gaddafi. With the Syrian regime facing mounting pressure at home after four days of protests in the southern city of Dara'a, state broadcasters and the tightly controlled, privately owned press have given prominence to Gaddafi's defiance of air strikes. quote:Military commanders have insisted that Muammar Gaddafi is not a target in the action being taken against Libya. In interviews on Sunday, Liam Fox, the defence secretary, talked up the possibility of Gaddafi being targeted. But today the UK chief of the defence staff, General Sir David Richards, said Gaddafi was "absolutely not" a target. "It is not allowed under the UN resolution and it is not something I want to discuss any further," he told the BBC. quote:Away from the British parliament, there are unverified reports coming in of civilian casualties following an attack by Gaddafi forces in Misrata. Reuters says forces loyal to the Libyan leader have fired on a crowd of unarmed people in the centre of the rebel-held city, killing at least nine, according to a resident. quote:Away from Westminster, the US Army general leading American forces, General Carter Ham, has said it would not be ideal for Muammar Gaddafi to remain in power but attacking the Libyan leader was not part of his mission. quote:More operational details are emerging. Sky News is reporting a Tornado strike on Gaddafi's compound was called off because of danger to civilians and journalists on the ground - specifically that a CNN journalist was broadcasting live from scene. quote:Despite the no-fly zone and coalition action, attacks from forces loyal Muammar Gaddafi continue. As far as what's happening in Yemen: quote:Three generals have defected from President Saleh and thrown their support behind the protesters. Major General Ali Mohsen al-Ahmar, is close to President Saleh and commands the army's powerful 1st armoured division, has accused the government of "unconstitutional and illegal practices". quote:President Saleh may have his back against the wall, but he is not going quietly. Reuters has obtained a statement from Yemen's defence minister saying that the army supports the president. quote:My colleague Mark Rice-Oxley has unearthed a fascinating US cable from WikiLeaks that portrays General Ali Mohsen in an unflattering light. The cable was written by Thomas Krajeski in 2005 when he was the US ambassador in Sana'a. quote:A round-up from AP contains this intriguing line on behind-the-scenes maneuvering to avoid political chaos.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:25
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cioxx posted:What is that? e: Or completely. I can't tell if the captives are photoshopped in, or not. Flyball fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Mar 21, 2011 |
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Mar 21, 2011 18:25
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shotgunbadger posted:I never made any geographic qualifiers, we should not meddle in any independent conflicts. If loving Canada was going through this I'd say the same. It's not our place to go barreling in with bombs blazing to 'fix' things, honestly I would have thought that after Kosovo and all that doesn't need to be said. Yeah, you're totally right. Human rights only apply at the UN headquarters and principles regarding the treatment of POW's are only universal in Geneva. You can't like, prevent a genocide, man. It's one of mother earth's creatures.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:25
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Stepping in always involves dropping bombs on the people you're trying to protect. And by "always" I mean "literally every time you've tried". The US has a really lovely track record.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:26
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shotgunbadger posted:I never made any geographic qualifiers, we should not meddle in any independent conflicts. If loving Canada was going through this I'd say the same. It's not our place to go barreling in with bombs blazing to 'fix' things, honestly I would have thought that after Kosovo and all that doesn't need to be said. You would sit back and watch your neighbours burn to death (this is literally what Gaaddafi has done to his people) and just go "Meh, it's not our problem, let them sort it out"?
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Mar 21, 2011 18:26
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Namarrgon posted:No man you don't understand, this white line we drew on the globe means we can't help any of the people on this side. Clearly they have to do anything on there own. The people in Rwanda and Sudan were/are not deserving of help because a) Those countries are populated by very dark people b) They don't have any resources c) Once you have killed over a million people, the numbers kind of become meaningless. While killing around a thousand people (and getting videotaped) is apparently grounds for immediate action (as long as our allies are not doing the killing). d) all of the above?
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Mar 21, 2011 18:27
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Namarrgon posted:So what you're saying is that if a dictator decides to take out his own rage on unarmed population with AA guns it is morally unjustified to step in? Because said dictator is the authority in a sovereign nation? After you sell the dictator those AA guns and that tear gas and train his security forces, you don't get to decide how he uses them. That would be interfering in an independent conflict.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:30
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Baddog posted:The people in Rwanda and Sudan were/are not deserving of help because They didn't ASK, duh, well, didn't ask loud enough, well, they didn't have signs.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:31
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Baddog posted:The people in Rwanda and Sudan were/are not deserving of help because True/False: Since we didn't stop one murder we aren't allowed to stop any others.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:31
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farraday posted:True/False: Since we didn't stop one murder we aren't allowed to stop any others. True/False: No one should ever learn from their mistakes, ever.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:32
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Shageletic posted:Round-up from the Guardian: I really hope they're not going to rebel based on this assumption.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:33
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There just was a snippet on the BBC stream, which I didn't quite catch. Something about some planes aborting their missions due to non-combatants at the target site. Does anyone have more information about this? Was this just incidental or was it human shields? Could that explain why the extensive shelling of some cities has not been stopped yet?
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Mar 21, 2011 18:33
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Baddog posted:The people in Rwanda and Sudan were/are not deserving of help because I think the horrors of Rwanda are a good reminder for why we should take a more proactive approach to helping establish order and fight evil throughout the world. Sorry we couldn't help out there, let's see if we can help out here and not make the same mistake.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:35
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Thunderstorm posted:There just was a snippet on the BBC stream, which I didn't quite catch. Something about some planes aborting their missions due to non-combatants at the target site. Does anyone have more information about this? Was this just incidental or was it human shields? Could that explain why the extensive shelling of some cities has not been stopped yet? Read a few posts upward. Tornado attack on Ghaddafi compound called off due to civilans and CNN reporter.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:35
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Baddog posted:The people in Rwanda and Sudan were/are not deserving of help because Rwanda was a travesty. The failure to respond to the genocide was what essentially drove the intervention in Kosovo, delayed as that one was too. Sudan is another story. It was in many ways far more complicated than Libya, lacking a potentially democratic opposition for one thing. Vastly different strategic challenges was another.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:35
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farraday posted:True/False: Since we didn't stop one murder we aren't allowed to stop any others. False. Can you answer my multiple choice though?
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Mar 21, 2011 18:35
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Democrazy posted:I think the horrors of Rwanda are a good reminder for why we should take a more proactive approach to helping establish order and fight evil throughout the world. Sorry we couldn't help out there, let's see if we can help out here and not make the same mistake. So you think America needs to be Spider-Man, if Spider-Man used a shotgun instead of webs?
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Mar 21, 2011 18:36
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Baddog posted:False. Can you answer my multiple choice though? Your multiple choice is begging the question so hard I feel like I should toss it a bone to make it stop with the puppy dog eyes.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:36
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shotgunbadger posted:So you think America needs to be Spider-Man, if Spider-Man used a shotgun instead of webs? The world community =/= the United States.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:37
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shotgunbadger posted:So you think America needs to be Spider-Man, if Spider-Man used a shotgun instead of webs? So you would not intervene in the Rwanda situation with any sort of action?
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Mar 21, 2011 18:38
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Baddog posted:The people in Rwanda and Sudan were/are not deserving of help because This is right on the money and all, but there's also one other component here that makes Libya stick out: forces fighting against the dictator, massacrer possess large swathes of territory. It's more likely we'll intervene if the good guys already have a good chance of winning. If it's a place like Syria, where the foreign community's thumb on the scale might not produce anything, then that decreases the likelihood of foreign intervention.
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Mar 21, 2011 18:38
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