Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Spacedad: Sep 11, 2001; We go play orbital catch around the curvature of the earth, son.

Something rather chilling, coming from the sycophantic ravings of the crazies defending Qaddafi (though we don't know how many of them are forced to do this):

quote:

There, hundreds of supporters offered themselves up as human shields, cheering to newly minted dance songs about their adoration for their leader. �House by house, alley by alley,� the catchiest song went, quoting a Qaddafi speech. �Disinfect the germs from each house and each room.�

It's very telling that the supporters of Qaddafi place such very little value on human life, both theirs, the opposition, and that of random innocent civilians; their 'fight song' describes Qaddafi's indiscriminate killing of civilians, many innocent, but killed in the name of rooting out any opposition. Mind you this is coming from human shields - their morale booster is literally a call for mass murder.

I have only two words to describe Qaddafi supporters: "death cult"

Spacedad fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Mar 21, 2011

# ? Mar 21, 2011 22:27

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Apr 29, 2024 17:26

Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

Baddog posted:

lol one million dead dudes with funny names.

Also France was backing the dudes doing most of the killing.

Uh dude pretty sure he's mocking MSNBC for loving up the names of those two groups which are actually "Hutu" and "Tutsi".

# ? Mar 21, 2011 22:28

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Good liars make sure never to lie all the time.

I don't believe the people leading the rebel movement are paragons of humanity who will save Libya. I am willing to believe the rebel movement itself is mostly made up of simple people fighting for more freedom.
And in the end, how much worse could a new Libyan leader be ?

# ? Mar 21, 2011 22:29

Thomase: Mar 18, 2009

God I love online polls. They are so fair and unbiased...

On an unrelated note guys, do you remember when we voted to change Austin cities waste disposal organization to the Fred Durst center for Humanity and Arts with a 25,000 vote lead on the next?

That was some good online polling.

# ? Mar 21, 2011 22:29

Nilbop: Jun 5, 2004; Looks like someone forgot his hardhat...

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

Them and the Watusi are some pretty vicious killers.

Them and their loving sacred bat.

# ? Mar 21, 2011 22:31

kw0134: Apr 19, 2003; I buy feet pics🍆

Umiapik posted:

No, he's not sure at all. We in the West are seeing the TV pictures and immediately fitting them into our own Middle East narrative: Evil despot vs resolute populace. Other people, in other parts of the world, might see something else entirely. There's a good article on this here (read it!):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/20/bahrain-saudi-intervention-religious-divide

You shouldn't assume that, just because Gadafffi's a murderous lunatic (which he is), the people opposing him are automatically peaceful democrats themselves. Like most of the posters in this thread, I know next to nothing about the history, culture and aspirations of the different tribes that make up the Libyan population. Perhaps they just want rid of Gadaffi so that they can invite Osama Bin Laden into Libya! "That's not true!!!", goons reply indignantly. Well, how do you know?? Have you bothered to investigate what the rebels really want at all? At least ask the questions before taking up their cause so enthusiastically.

I won't claim to be an actual expert in Libyan politics or history, but it's also clear that Bahrain is a poor analogy to tribalism here because this is by no means also a religious divide -- Libyans are almost uniformly Sunni, and there won't be the sort of animosity that exists between the two sects like in the Persian Gulf. Moreover, not that this is any sort of iron-clad indicator, but the leaders and instigators of this rebellion have been mostly civil servants and the professional class, while imans and other religious authorities have been relegated to cheerleading status. As a whole, there's a reliably secular nature to the leadership, to the demands, and to the message the breakaway regions have displayed.

Taken as a whole, it's strongly suggestive that this isn't some backdoor attempt to install Al Qaeda or anything (suggestions that they were AQ pawns were met with reported eye-rolling in rebel held areas when Qadaffi made that particular claim), and that fractures in any ruling coalition are strictly speculative at this point.

# ? Mar 21, 2011 22:36

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

kw0134 posted:

I won't claim to be an actual expert in Libyan politics or history, but it's also clear that Bahrain is a poor analogy to tribalism here because this is by no means also a religious divide -- Libyans are almost uniformly Sunni, and there won't be the sort of animosity that exists between the two sects like in the Persian Gulf. Moreover, not that this is any sort of iron-clad indicator, but the leaders and instigators of this rebellion have been mostly civil servants and the professional class, while imans and other religious authorities have been relegated to cheerleading status. As a whole, there's a reliably secular nature to the leadership, to the demands, and to the message the breakaway regions have displayed.

Taken as a whole, it's strongly suggestive that this isn't some backdoor attempt to install Al Qaeda or anything (suggestions that they were AQ pawns were met with reported eye-rolling in rebel held areas when Qadaffi made that particular claim), and that fractures in any ruling coalition are strictly speculative at this point.

It was hard to judge their specific reaction to that claim. They'd already been pelting the screen with shoes for several minutes.

# ? Mar 21, 2011 22:42

IRQ: Sep 9, 2001; SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!

The-Mole posted:

It was hard to judge their specific reaction to that claim. They'd already been pelting the screen with shoes for several minutes.

I wonder, do they bring spare shoes to throw, or is it just one really bad decision and everyone winds up walking home in someone else's shoes that are 3 sizes too small?

# ? Mar 21, 2011 22:45

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

IRQ posted:

I wonder, do they bring spare shoes to throw, or is it just one really bad decision and everyone winds up walking home in someone else's shoes that are 3 sizes too small?

I'm going to a Persian New Years dinner tonight. I'll ask and report back.

# ? Mar 21, 2011 22:56

quadratic: May 2, 2002; f(x) = ax^2 + bx + c

Paradox Personified posted:

Because the MB frightened 30 more percent into voting right before the turnout. That is what pissed me off.

Did you just pull that number out of your rear end?

edit: Why was an American private jet flying into Libya three days ago? :tinfoil:

quadratic fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Mar 21, 2011

# ? Mar 21, 2011 23:06

Cartouche: Jan 4, 2011

Times posted:

Something rather chilling, coming from the sycophantic ravings of the crazies defending Qaddafi (though we don't know how many of them are forced to do this):

It's very telling that the supporters of Qaddafi place such very little value on human life, both theirs, the opposition, and that of random innocent civilians; their 'fight song' describes Qaddafi's indiscriminate killing of civilians, many innocent, but killed in the name of rooting out any opposition. Mind you this is coming from human shields - their morale booster is literally a call for mass murder.

I have only two words to describe Qaddafi supporters: "death cult"

Has anyone done testing on the water over there? I really have a hard time grokking the mindset of large groups like that. Is it a Jim Jones kool-aid drinking cult type of thing?

# ? Mar 21, 2011 23:07

Ballz: Dec 16, 2003; it's mario time

Cartouche posted:

Has anyone done testing on the water over there? I really have a hard time grokking the mindset of large groups like that. Is it a Jim Jones kool-aid drinking cult type of thing?

Check their Nescafe.

# ? Mar 21, 2011 23:11

Malick23: Sep 10, 2001; I bought all my friends forum accounts and all I got was this lousy custom title

Times posted:

It's very telling that the supporters of Qaddafi place such very little value on human life, both theirs, the opposition, and that of random innocent civilians; their 'fight song' describes Qaddafi's indiscriminate killing of civilians, many innocent, but killed in the name of rooting out any opposition. Mind you this is coming from human shields - their morale booster is literally a call for mass murder.

It sound like the "Zenga Zenga" song from a few weeks back. Can anyone confirm because if so that's hilarious.

# ? Mar 21, 2011 23:28

Baddog: May 12, 2001

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

Uh dude pretty sure he's mocking MSNBC for loving up the names of those two groups which are actually "Hutu" and "Tutsi".

Sorry, given the choice between a goon making fun of african names, or an msnbc announcer misprouncing them, I just assumed the goon. But I guess the msnbc option is nearly as likely.

# ? Mar 21, 2011 23:34

Killer robot: Sep 6, 2010; I was having the most wonderful dream. I think you were in it!; Pillbug

quadratic posted:

Did you just pull that number out of your rear end?

edit: Why was an American private jet flying into Libya three days ago?

Pulled it out of Ham's rear end, actually.

Or rather, Ham was saying that the vote was looking like it was going to be really close in polling before the MB people chimed in on the religious duty, and then we got the results we did.

I don't know how much of it was due to MB statements and how much was due to the early polls being off, but haven't seen anything to really discount either.

# ? Mar 21, 2011 23:59

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Interesting to see Sabha being bombed today, that's much further south, and a Gaddafi stronghold. It's believed a lot of mercenaries were being flown into the airport there, I'm guessing that would be the target of the bombing.

The UK parliament just voted 557 to 13 in favour of the intervention as well.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 00:04

Pseudohog: Apr 4, 2007

mrfart posted:

good question.
the clich�s are beer, chocolate and french fries.
We do have manneken pis, the little peeing guy in brussels. But don't know if that could work.
Maybe I'll try something if I have some time during the next days, so I can post it next time my country bombs something.

I'm so sorry...

# ? Mar 22, 2011 00:07

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Misarata

quote:

21.03.2011
Morning: Gaddafi forces raid outskirts of Misrata Ghiraan and Zawiat Almahjub. They pick at random houses and force residents out at gunpoint to use as human shields whilst State TV records a proGaddafi protest in Misrata.

Gaddafi forces shell their way into centre of city and raise Gaddafi flag over Public Hall building (key building in Misrata). As gaddafi tanks retreat to begin set up for state TV, Misrata's residents head to Public Hall, remove Gaddafi flag and raise Libya's first and only flag yet again. The decision to go out in protest was made by the residents on their own, leaders usually planning operations weren't informed.

After flag was raised, a massacre occured. Unarmed civilians attacked with RPGs, grenades, snipers, tanks - everything.

Fighters quickly organised themselves and managed to push Gaddafi forces back to one entrance and the street connecting it.

Snipers remain situated in, and on, tall buildings equipped with hand grenades and RPGs, as well as their sniper rifles.

Death toll confirmed at 17. Injured are at 125 - and were 113 just an hour ago. Most injuries are critical, clinics flooded, no hospital and a maximum of 20 intensive care units. Many doctors live in the Ghiraan area and have not been able to get to the city after morning raid. Conditions are disastrous. URGENT AID REQUIRED.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 00:08

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Ziwayah
From http://twitter.com/OmarAlmu5tar:

quote:

Via Family: #Zawiyah has been ethnically cleansed

quote:

Via Family: Any male above the age of 16 has been killed, kidnapped, missing, or they've escaped

quote:

Via Family: Journalists are not allowed in and dead Libyans are being dug out of their graves

# ? Mar 22, 2011 00:09

Ace Oliveira: Dec 27, 2009; "I wonder if there is beer on the sun."

Brown Moses posted:

Ziwayah
From http://twitter.com/OmarAlmu5tar:

Oh christ. How big was Ziwayah's population? It can't be too big if Gaddafi's forces have cleansed the town completely.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 00:24

Greyfox1625: Oct 21, 2010

Brown Moses posted:

Ziwayah
From http://twitter.com/OmarAlmu5tar:

"Sorry, but that page doesn't exist"? Oh, had to delete the last character to get it to work. I'd really like to see an official report on whats happening in Zaiwiyah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfydO-Z-D0M What seems to be artillery used in Misrata.

Greyfox1625 fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Mar 22, 2011

# ? Mar 22, 2011 00:28

Narmi: Feb 26, 2008

Ace Oliveira posted:

Oh christ. How big was Ziwayah's population? It can't be too big if Gaddafi's forces have cleansed the town completely.

Zawiyah is the third largest city in Libya with some 300 000 people.

Narmi fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Mar 22, 2011

# ? Mar 22, 2011 00:30

sweeptheleg: Nov 26, 2007

Greyfox1625 posted:

"Sorry, but that page doesn't exist"? Oh, had to delete the last character to get it to work. I'd really like to see an official report on whats happening in Zaiwiyah

Well they aren't letting foreign journalists in, so that leaves Libyan state tv. According to their official report its partly cloudy and a little humid for this time of year.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 00:33

Kenning: Jan 11, 2009; I really want to post goatse. Instead I only have these🍄.

Warcabbit posted:

Of course, what has to be done now is that the Egyptians need to get a fatwah that voting to their best interests, not as the Muslim Brotherhood say, is the right way, according to Allah. Get it out now, fast, and before the Muslim Brotherhood cook the actual elections.

I don't think you know how fatwas work.

A fatwa may be issued by literally anyone. In general fatawa are issued by scholars in response to a specific question someone has asked them to rule on. Once the fatwa has been issued it is expected that the person who asked the question will follow the ruling, but a fatwa is only considered binding on its issuer. If a fatwa is issued and becomes the consensus of the scholars of the time it may be used in Islamic legal proceedings in a way similar to the way precedent is used in common law, i.e. as one element (but not the sole element) in determining the outcome of a case.

Essentially, there's no such thing as "getting out a fatwa." Even if Shaykh al-Azhar were to say something about not listening to the Muslim Brothers, all it means is that he shouldn't listen to the Muslim Brothers, and that other people know that he thinks that.

Also you're too scared of the Muslim Brotherhood.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 00:38

Apology: Nov 12, 2005; by Y Kant Ozma Post

I got behind on this thread, and since a lot of it seemed like Call-Of-Duty-Armchair-General speculation and posturing,I skipped some pages. I apologize if some of this stuff has already been posted.

In Bahrain, armed thugs are apprehending people, in particular anyone who has flags and signs and other things used by protesters:

quote:

Between the Saudi army tanks and police barricades that are now canvassing the Bahraini capital of Manama, there is a new and scarier breed of checkpoints: those manned by civilian thugs. Masked and wielding bats, chain batons and even swords, they search cars for anything they construe as antigovernment memorabilia, including Bahraini flags, beating passengers should anything be discovered. Foreigners are not exempt. One Western woman said her car's tires were shot. In Hamad Town, a Sunni enclave near King Hamad bin Isa al-Khalifa's palace in Riffa, there have been reports of several beatings by thugs who patrol the area, clubs in hand. Opposition leaders insist that the mask-wearing vigilantes have become government proxies, used to intimidate protesters and foreign journalists. At various checkpoints, police cars have idled nearby while the thugs � some of whom look no older than 18 � harass passersby. The capital is a veritable ghost town as residents abide by a curfew from 8 p.m. to 4 a.m. to avoid the gangs.

Automatic rifles are often propped next to the thugs lounging on sidewalks. The opposition says that obtaining such weapons is nearly impossible for civilians without the express consent of the regime. Using civilian thugs is "a way for the regime to intimidate and threaten the opposition without getting its fingerprints on it," says Barak Barfi, research fellow and Middle East specialist at the New America Foundation. Barfi adds, "It's clear that there's an intimidation campaign being waged against both foreign and domestic media." On Friday, Foreign Minister Sheikh Khaled bin Ahmed al-Khalifa flatly dismissed allegations that the thugs were part of the government apparatus.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2060463,00.html?xid=tweetshare

Uh oh where dah money go:

quote:

Islamic Republic corruption scandal: $11 billion in oil money missing
Posted by admin on March 20, 2011 in English, Featured | 0 Comment

Source: http://iranchannel.org/archives/962

By Cyrus Maximus

A colossal corruption scandal is brewing in Tehran, with the discovery that $11 billion in oil revenues have vanished over the past nine months.

The mullahs and their minions are fighting among themselves about it. Members of the majlis, the Islamic Republic�s version of a parliament, have formed a commission to investigate what happened to $4.3 billion in missing oil revenues from the state-owned petroleum sector that, under the law, should have been deposited into the regime�s foreign exchange reserves.

Another $6 billion in receivables from foreign oil purchasers, according to commission spokesman Emad Hosseini, have disappeared and have not shown up in the foreign exchange reserves account. Other oil funds are also missing, bringing the total amount of missing oil money to top $11 billion since last summer.

A majlis commission report is being submitted to the Islamic Republic judiciary for investigation. The semi-official Fars propaganda agency, Tabnak, Rahesabz, and VOA Persian carry the report.

Separately, Majlis Speaker Ali Larijani accused President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of extensive fraud. The state-run Mehr propaganda agency quoted Larijani as saying, �The report about the draining of last year�s budget, which has been submitted to parliament by the Supreme Audit Court, is voluminous.�

Majlis Deputy Lahouti added, �The National Oil Company was responsible for many of the violations and the Supreme Audit Court must investigate this issue especially in cases where significant funds are involved.� Freedom Messenger brings us the story.

As another indicator of the regime�s coverup of systematic corruption, a European Union advisor for economic affairs says the Iranian government is not publishing its economic statistics, indicating what he calls an �economic failure.�

This could spell trouble for Ayatollah Khamenei, Iran�s Supreme Leader, and his family who are reported to control much of the country�s oil wealth. Some systematic exposure could undermine the regime.

http://www.freedomessenger.com/?p=25484

Sounds like the poo poo is hitting the Persian fan all right.

Is Fox News on the same level as the Daily Mail yet? It hurts me to quote them

quote:

EXCLUSIVE: Libyans Use Journalists as Human Shields
By Jennifer Griffin & Justin Fishel
Published March 21, 2011 | FoxNews.com
Print Email Share Comments (1553)

EXCLUSIVE: An attack on the compound of Libyan leader Muammar al-Qaddafi on Sunday had to be curtailed because of journalists nearby, Fox News has learned.

British sources confirmed that seven Storm Shadow missiles were ready to be fired from a British aircraft, but the strikes had to be curtailed due to crews from CNN, Reuters and other organizations nearby. Officials from Libya's Ministry of Information brought those journalists to the area to show them damage from the initial attack and to effectively use them as human shields.

The curtailment of this mission led to a great deal of consternation by coalition commanders, sources told Fox News, but they opted to call off the mission to avoid civilian casualties.

During a Pentagon briefing on Monday, coalition commanders said the huge compound was targeted due to its air defense systems on the perimeter and a military command and control center. It was not targeted to kill Qaddafi, commanders said.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/21/exclusive-libyans-use-journalists-human-shields/

Syria doesn't gently caress around. The Syrian protesters are extremely brave, because they know this. They know what to expect from their government.

quote:

Syrian troops have been deployed in the southern city of Daraa a day after an anti-government protester was killed when forces reportedly fired on a demonstration.

News agencies, citing residents, said that thousands of Syrians marched on Monday in the town following the funeral of Raed Akrad.

A resident told the AFP news agency that a "mass of demonstrators started to march from the cemetery towards al-Omari mosque after the burial".

Demonstrators chanted "Just God, Syria and Freedom," and "Revolution, revolution" according to the resident.

Another witness said security forces had been deployed to block protests, but people had gathered regardless.

Later in the day, Rula Amin, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Daraa, said the situation was still "very tense but quiet".

"There are a lot of security, the army as well as police, there are a lot of checkpoints. But we didn't see any protests, people told us there was a funeral this morning but it ended with no clashes," she said.

Separately, activists said an 11-year-old boy died on Monday after injuries he suffered when security forces dispersed an earlier demonstrations in the city.

http://english.aljazeera.net//news/middleeast/2011/03/201132112130110767.html

Even their children are fierce. The good news is that the word "fierce" can also describe loyalty and love as well as anger and violence. One would think that the Syrian government would understand that if you shoot at two protesters, there will be four tomorrow, but...

I fear that things are going to get very ugly in Syria shortly.

Just a tweet that caught my eye:

quote:

@JustAmira
Amira Al Hussaini
Dear truth, I mourn ur death in Arabia

@JustAmira
Amira Al Hussaini
Dear shame, we'll bury u in the same mass grave, along with truth, dignity and decency

It's hard to be profound in 140 characters or less but Amira Al Hussaini somehow manages.

Truly the revolution in Kashmir is the most forgotten revolution:

quote:

Protests likely to hit train services
HT Correspondent, Hindustan Times
New Delhi, March 21, 2011
Email to Author

First Published: 23:40 IST(21/3/2011)
Last Updated: 23:42 IST(21/3/2011)

Jat agitation is likely to intensify further with Jat leaders threatening to block the Delhi-Ambala railway line if their demand for reservation in jobs under the OBC category is not met by March 25. The agitation is likely to result in disruption of railway services between Delhi and Punjab, Harya na, Himachal Pradesh and Jammu & Kashmir, causing shortage of vegetables, fruits and even petroleum products that come from Panipat refinery.
The agitating leaders have also threatened to cut off Delhi from the rest of North India on March 28, if the Central government fail to fulfill their demands.

Although rail traffic resumed on Delhi-Moradabad section after the intervention of the Allahabad high court, the agitation on Delhi-Bathinda section of Northern Railway and Bikaner and Jaipur division of North Western Railway is still disrupting railway services on several routes in Haryana and Rajasthan for almost two weeks now, senior railway officials said.

According to officials, 42 trains remained cancelled and routes of another 41 routes were curtailed due to the ongoing agitation. Senior railway officials said 36 trains remained cancelled and 43 trains ran on shorter routes on the day of Holi.

"To ensure that passengers receive a regular flow of information we are providing updated information on our telephonic enquiry system.

The TV screens on all major stations are also showing updated information and public address system are also announcing regular updates," a railway spokesperson said.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Protests-likely-to-hit-train-services/Article1-676020.aspx?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

The tone this article suggests that the protesters are dastardly, ne'er-do-well agitators, but at the same time the article admits that what they want is jobs. Let's not forget that India had a caste system in recent history, and some will tell you that they still quietly follow it (which they deny). I'm pretty sure that the Kashmiri are the lowest of the low, and last in line for every sort of resource. I have to admit I don't know much about the whole issue.

This next article might be more enlightening, however:

quote:

Amnesty slams India over Kashmir abuse
Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:16PM

Indian government has deployed more than half a million troops across Kashmir.
Rights group, Amnesty International has slammed India's laws on dealing with people suspected as threats to state security in Indian-administered Kashmir.

Nearly 20,000 people have been arrested and held under the Public Safety Act (PSA) since 1989.

"Kashmir authorities are using PSA detentions as a revolving door to keep people they can't or won't convict through proper legal channels locked up and out of the way," said Sam Zarifi, Amnesty's Asia-Pacific director, calling on India to scrap PSA.

There have been almost daily demonstrations against Indian rule in the region since June 2010, when security forces killed a teenage protestor.

Government forces have responded by imposing curfews and restrictions on the movement of people.

The Kashmiri people have accused the Indian police of opening fire on peaceful demonstrators and bystanders during the unrest. Most of the victims were young men.

Since early June, violent street protests and crackdowns have left more than 110 people dead.

New Delhi has been repeatedly criticized for resorting to force rather than finding a diplomatic solution to the issue.

India and Pakistan both claim Kashmir in full but have partial control over it.

Despite the risks, it seems the Kashmiris are determined to continue their "people power" movement.

Political analysts say frequent street protests of the past two years are giving new life to the Kashmir liberation struggle.

Over the past two decades, the conflict in Kashmir has left over 47,000 people dead by the official count, although other sources say the death toll could be as high as 90,000.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/171089.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

"Mine!" "No, mine!" "Mine!" "No---" *tears the baby in half*

The Bahraini government apparently does not give a gently caress what the rest of the world thinks about their tactics in suppressing the protests:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxOXnm7X5No

"And the protesters are bunched up here because the army is right over there---gently caress, RUN!!!" :derp:

A few pages back, amidst all the armchair-generalling, someone mentioned that these things aren't likely to happen in Morocco:

quote:

Amid escalating unrest in Middle East and North of Africa, Moroccans have also taken to the streets to protest corruption in Morocco and demand better civil rights.

Thousands of pro-democracy protesters gathered in Rabat and Casablanca on Sunday shouting "the Moroccan people demand change!" and holding up placards reading "For the freedom and dignity of the Moroccan people."

Protests in Morocco began earlier this year following revolutions in Egypt and Tunis which led to the overthrow of the governments in both countries.

In February thousands of Moroccans staged peaceful demonstrations across the country, prompting Morocco's King Mohammed VI to emphasize his commitment to �pursuing the realization of structural reforms.�

The king announced on March 9 that he had appointed a committee to draft a reform of the constitution widening the prerogatives of elected officials and ensuring officials are accountable and the judiciary independent.

Mohammed VI added that the new proposals would be announced in June and the draft constitution will be put to a referendum.

On March 14, however, Morocco's riot police armed with truncheons broke up peaceful protest in Casablanca in an unusual show of violence, injuring 13 people and arresting 54 others.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/170929.html

Things are happening in Morocco, if you know where to look for the news (Google). You can do it from your armchair and everything!

quote:

Renewed protests in Morocco despite king's reform pledge
Mar 20, 2011, 13:56 GMT
Rabat - Thousands of protesters on Sunday once again took to the streets in Morocco to call for democracy and social justice, despite extensive reforms promised by King Mohammed VI.
In the capital Rabat, witnesses said some 4,000 people participated in a rally, while authorities put the figures at 1,500. Protests were also reported in the economic hub of Casablanca and other cities.
Islamist and far-left groups had called for the demonstrations. Although they were not approved by authorities, the police did not initially intervene.
A week ago, police had violently broken up unauthorized demonstrations, injuring 13 people and arresting 54, according to the state news agency MAP.
The king had earlier unveiled extensive constitutional reforms, saying that he would renounce some of his vast powers and strengthen those of the government and parliament.
Government opponents say the plans do not go far enough.
Morocco had previously remained largely untouched by the unrest that continues to grip the Arab world, with individual rallies but no mass demonstrations.

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/africa/news/article_1627436.php/Renewed-protests-in-Morocco-despite-king-s-reform-pledge

That last line isn't quite true---the demonstrations took a while to get going, but an "individual rally" is the same as a "small demonstration". I think that the Moroccans were slowed by the constitutional reforms and some concessions early on, but once they had time to realize that the changes wouldn't actually improve their daily lives, they got going just like nearly everyone else in the Arab world. This is only my opinion, however.

:lol:

quote:

@JustAmira
Amira Al Hussaini
AGAIN: I am being cyberbullied for doing my job: I am on a "terrormongers" list: http://twitter.com/!/khattak99/terrormongers #Bahrain

"Terrormonger" is obviously a synonym for "good journalist" so I am following everyone on the list but not the list itself.

And finally some Ivory Coast News. My Ivory Coast information source hasn't posted since March 17

so I've had to strike out on my own. I apologize if the news isn't up to snuff:

quote:

In Ivory Coast, journalists pick sides or flee
By Nassirou Diallo with Mohamed Keita/CPJ Africa Staff
Reporting on the power struggle in Ivory Coast is increasingly perilous, with journalists facing a climate of threats, intimidation, and attacks that has forced many to choose between adopting partisan coverage or fleeing to safety. "Here, we are in a situation where if you are not with one camp, then you are against them. You must show you are partisan," reporter St�phane Gou� told CPJ today.

Gou� heads a local press freedom group called the Ivorian Committee for the Protection of Journalists (CIPJ), which has documented and spoken out against abuses committed by supporters of both President Laurent Gbagbo and challenger Alassane Ouattara. Goue said he fears for the safety of all journalists following Sunday's call by Gbagbo youth militia leader Charles Bl� Goud� to arm the president's supporters.

Gou� told CPJ he has gone into hiding himself after being threatened in response to his public statements. In comments made on the UN-sponsored radio station, Gou� criticized Gbagbo's efforts to restrict the press and questioned the antistate charges lodged against jailed journalists Aboubacar Sanogo and Yayoro Charles Lopez Kangb� of the rebel-held TV Notre Patrie.

http://www.cpj.org/blog/2011/03/in-ivory-coast-journalists-pick-sides-or-flee.php

Maybe that's what happened to my original Ivory Coast source. They might have fled.

Or, maybe they got shelled to death while out trying to buy a mango:

quote:

United Nations officials today intensified their condemnation of an attack yesterday by forces allied to C�te d'Ivoire's defeated president on a market that killed 25 to 30 people and wounded dozens more, with the Organization's human rights office warning that it could be a crime against humanity.

Such charges can bring the alleged perpetrator within the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court (ICC), whose prosecutor is already leading a preliminary examination into the deadly violence sparked by former president Laurent Gbagbo's refusal to step down despite his UN-certified and internationally recognized defeat by opposition leader Alassane Ouattara in last November's run-off elections.

"We utterly condemn yesterday's attack by rockets or other missiles on a civilian area in the Abobo suburb of the [commercial] capital Abidjan," UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) spokesperson Rupert Colville told a news briefing in Geneva, referring to the neighbourhood that is a Ouattara stronghold.

"It is quite difficult to avoid the conclusion that this may be an international crime, possibly a crime against humanity. We are very concerned that the situation in C�te d'Ivoire appears to have deteriorated even further over the past week."

http://allafrica.com/stories/201103180966.html

A little more on the market attack:

quote:

Abidjan � The violence in C�te d'Ivoire has gotten so that women sitting at a vegetable stall mid-afternoon can end up in pools of blood on the ground in an instant.

A mortar attack that killed at least 25 people in the commercial capital Abidjan on 17 March came from military forces loyal to Laurent Gbagbo and "could constitute a crime against humanity", says the UN Operation in C�te d'Ivoire (UNOCI).

Nafissa Hagba saw the shells hit the market in Abobo District. "There was no firing, no warning. Just this whistling noise and then explosions everywhere. The market was chaos. It hit stalls where mainly fruit and vegetables are sold; many women were there." Nafissa counted seven bodies.

One of the bodies was that of 30-year-old Ouattara Ousmane. After days of being holed up at home - as is the case for many Abobo residents amid fierce violence - he had gone out to buy food in the market, his brother said. "He was so happy to leave the house, where we've been cooped up for so long," 34-year old teacher Ouattara Kapet told IRIN. "He never came back home. A neighbour told us he was under the wreck of a market stall. There was shrapnel in his neck."

A team of UN experts who visited the site "were able to provide confirmation of the type of shells and their provenance," UNOCI spokesperson Hamadoun Tour� told IRIN.

In a report released on 15 March Human Rights Watch said organized attacks on civilians by Gbagbo's forces likely constitute crimes against humanity and that the killing of civilians by forces loyal to Alassane Ouattara "also risks becoming crimes against humanity should they become widespread or systematic".

UNOCI said in a 19 March statement it would "take appropriate measures to ensure the protection of civilians, in accordance with its mandate".

Many Ivoirians say they are frustrated that international forces in the country are not doing more to stop the carnage.

"Civilians continue to be killed - every day civilians are killed," said Andr� Banhouman Kamat�, president of the executive national office of the Ivoirian Human Rights League.

"It's not that UNOCI has done nothing....They have take action to protect civilians, but we have a situation where peacekeepers themselves cannot go into certain areas because of the insecurity."

Kamat� said the violence is scarcely getting any attention in the world. "C�te d'Ivoire has been completely erased from the world's radar, with all that's going on in Japan, in Libya."

UN Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator Valerie Amos said the shelling incident "demonstrates a blatant disregard for international humanitarian law".

An Abobo resident said this is one of many mortar attacks on civilians in the area in recent weeks.

"Urban warfare" is what the UN Refugee Agency called the Abidjan violence in an 18 March statement. Some 300,000 people have been forced out of their Abidjan homes since November, according to UNHCR.

One minute you're buying eggplant, cassava, and a little okra, and the next minute you're lying in a pool of blood with a piece of shrapnel in your neck.

I also like how the Gbagbo government can slaughter hundreds of civilians and yet it's still not enough to qualify as crimes against humanity. It's almost as if they're keeping a tally with hashmarks: "88...89...90...oh, burned a baby alive? That counts as two...93...94..."

quote:

Abidjan � Vegetable seller Caroline Tibet recently lost about US$420 in aubergines, cassava and okra when gunfire broke out near the truck just loaded up with her goods near the town of Du�kou� in western C�te d'Ivoire.

"My investment went up in smoke," she told IRIN. That has not, however, stopped Tibet and hundreds of other women in the commercial capital Abidjan from braving gunfire, curfews and ubiquitous and often dangerous roadblocks to keep the city's central food market stocked.

"The risks are enormous," she told IRIN at the March� Gouro in Adjam� District - where people from all over Abidjan come for fruit and vegetables daily. "But if we gave up, there would be nothing in the markets and the people would feel the crisis even more sharply."

The vendors travel regularly to plantations in the west. These days their schedules are largely shaped by curfews. "Once night falls, all of us - sellers, drivers - sleep under the trucks," Tibet said. "At sunrise, once roads are open again, we set off for Abidjan." In normal times, women said, even if people finished loading up a truck at 1am they would drive back.

These constraints take their toll on family life. "It's a huge sacrifice we make," Chantale Abou, a mother of three, said. "We barely see our children."

But the women remain positive. Plantain seller Bernadette Trazi� Lou told IRIN: "The crisis has perhaps diminished economic activity but it hasn't undermined our morale to make food available in the markets and avoid famine."

"The most important thing is a return to peace," said Ta Lou Iri�, president of the March� Gouro administrative council. "It's all up to the politicians; they owe us peace so the economy can bounce back."

http://allafrica.com/stories/201103180578.html

I am filled with admiration.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 00:42

Pablo Bluth: Sep 7, 2007; I've made a huge mistake.

Apology posted:

Is Fox News on the same level as the Daily Mail yet? It hurts me to quote them

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/21/exclusive-libyans-use-journalists-human-shields/

Fox had a guy on that trip too
http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/21/robertson-this-allegation-is-outrageous-and-its-absolutely-hypocritical/

# ? Mar 22, 2011 00:48

Lustful Man Hugs: Jul 18, 2010

Brown Moses posted:

Ziwayah

Dear God, that's horrible.

It's absolutely cringeworthy to think about what would happen if Gaddafi had taken control of the whole country.

And this is the third largest city in the country. Where the hell are the fighter jets?

# ? Mar 22, 2011 01:02

Cabbages and Kings: Aug 25, 2004; Shall we be trotting home again?

Ace Oliveira posted:

Oh christ. How big was Ziwayah's population? It can't be too big if Gaddafi's forces have cleansed the town completely.

wikipedia posted:

In 2006, the Az Zawiyah District was estimated to have a population of about 291,000 people,[5] most of whom were concentrated in the city. Az Zawiyah has a university named the Seventh of April University which was founded in 1988. There is also an oil field near the city and Az Zawiyah has one of the two most important oil refineries in Libya.

----------------
This thread brought to you by tremendous head!

# ? Mar 22, 2011 01:04

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

ChaosSamusX posted:

And this is the third largest city in the country. Where the hell are the fighter jets?

quote:

#
2233: The man said there were at least 40 tanks in place in the foothills of the mountains near Zintan.

Dunno but it sounds like a shooting gallery

# ? Mar 22, 2011 01:12

Tiki Powers: Jul 19, 2005; If your friendship can survive this, your not playing dirty enough

Brown Moses posted:

Ziwayah
From http://twitter.com/OmarAlmu5tar

Has anyone confirmed this. If true that's sickening on a level I hadn't even thought possible. It's difficult to even think about.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 01:12

neamp: Jun 24, 2003

For Zawiya, what is probably meant is that every adult male from every family that was found to have been involved in the uprising "was disappeared".
At most a few thousand people, I'd guess, but probably less, with selective enforcement making examples of only some families so the rest know their place.

In other rumors, Gaddafi may be paying mercenaries with forged Libyan currency, picture was posted.
Seems a bit doubtful to me that mercenaries would even accept anything but dollars though. And I saw some video that showed dead mercenaries with stacks of dollar bills in their pocket, so one of them probably wasn't the source of that fake money.

Remember though how he gave every family 500 dinars or so a few weeks back? Wonder if he financed that with some shiny new photocopied bills, since as I understand it Libyan dinars used to be printed in the UK and that source is now cut off.
Libyans might want to examine their money more closely.

vvv Crushing of the Zawiya uprising took place before the intervention, but news of what happened there is only slowly coming out since the city is totally locked down.

neamp fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Mar 22, 2011

# ? Mar 22, 2011 01:15

Fapitalism: Apr 12, 2003; When Capitalism fails, you will always have Fapitalism.

If the rumors about Ziwayah are true then there goes any hope the U.S. and allies could pull out of trying to help Libya. The spin from Arabs will be if the coalition didn't go in then Ghaddafi would never have been pushed to the brink and forced to take really drastic action and eliminate a whole city.

Of course Ghaddafi has proven before the coalition even invaded that he is nuts and capable of mass civilian casualties. But that will all be forgiven to much of the world because the coalition pushed him into such dire straits. I know America wants to help countries, and to the pessimists the U.S. is in Libya for the oil (heads up, U.S. got no oil from Libya before this "war") but America needs to realize the Middle East is a pit that no matter what an outside country does in the region it will always be seen as imperialism.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 01:23

Total Meatlove: Jan 28, 2007; Rangers died, shoujo Hitler cried ;_;

People think that 'he was forced into mass killings of civilians' could ever actually hold weight?

# ? Mar 22, 2011 01:41

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

As interesting as conditions in Libya are at the moment I think we're much more likely to see things collapse in Yemen first (which isn't much of a prediction really).

Definite question of Saudi led intervention there. The mass military defection of the last few days suggests heavily to me an attempt to establish military control, possibly temporary, possibly otherwise, in the wake of the collapse of Saleh's government.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 01:42

Lustful Man Hugs: Jul 18, 2010

Fapitalism posted:

If the rumors about Ziwayah are true then there goes any hope the U.S. and allies could pull out of trying to help Libya. The spin from Arabs will be if the coalition didn't go in then Ghaddafi would never have been pushed to the brink and forced to take really drastic action and eliminate a whole city.

Of course Ghaddafi has proven before the coalition even invaded that he is nuts and capable of mass civilian casualties. But that will all be forgiven to much of the world because the coalition pushed him into such dire straits. I know America wants to help countries, and to the pessimists the U.S. is in Libya for the oil (heads up, U.S. got no oil from Libya before this "war") but America needs to realize the Middle East is a pit that no matter what an outside country does in the region it will always be seen as imperialism.

I'm sure there will be negative fallout from this incident towards the coalition if even a tenth of the rumors about Ziwayah are true, but even I'm not that cynical.

Hell, this could even be a moment that galvanises the international community against the Gadaffi forces irreversably (not that I'm saying this event would be a good thing. Even thinking about it, I'm treading a fine line between absolute despair and absolute rage).

# ? Mar 22, 2011 01:42

Joementum: May 23, 2004; jesus christ

Richard Engle (in Tobruk, Libya) discussion with Chris Matthews.

Matthews: What is going on in the war? Are we going after Qaddafi? What are we doing in this war, do we know?

Richard Engle: The rebels here think we have given them unconditional military support. Their only strategy seems to be allow the US and other military powers to scorch the earth and destroy Qaddafi's military so that they can make a very slow advance toward Tripoli.

They do see a humanitarian element to this because if Qaddafi's forces had been allowed to enter Benghazi or Tobruk there very likely would have been massacres, but now they think this rebel movement which has been leaderless and disorganized believes it has has been recognized and given the full support of the United States military.

Matthews: Are we giving arms of any kind? Small arms, artillery,armor, what are we giving to the rebels. Anything?

Engle: I have seen no evidence that we are giving the rebels anything. They seem to be holding the weapons that they seized from the units of Qaddafi that were destroyed by the Americans. Sometimes they're armed with just pocket knives...

The rebels are in two groups. There are the volunteers, they seem to be a little bit braver, they're the ones heading out to the front lines. They're not having a lot of success. That's one group. The other are the divisions of the army, formerly Qaddafi's army, that defected. And they are not really doing much of anything.

In Tobruk today, we went to the main army command to talk to one of the top generals here who had supposedly joined the rebellion. He was at home today and had taken the day off.

Matthews: Do the rebels think we're going for the kill, Qaddafi?

Engle: they hope so and that's what they want. They seem to think there could be a few ways to end this conflict. The US could continue to trailblaze for them and scorch the earth so they can move forward. They think they can reach Tripoli in a short amount of time, perhaps weeks or a few months. Or if there's enough pressure, there could be some sort of coup in Tripoli and someone could come out and assassinate Qaddafi. Or the third option would be that one of these missiles comes and actually kills Qaddafi. If none of those things happen there could be a long stalemate. Once the US starts this, once the US and other powers begin to provide the rebels with a safe haven and air cover it's very hard to take that away. Because if you're offering your protection and they try to advance, they will advance, and you take that air cover away, the rebels are very likely to start losing again and we're back to the situation where we were and the main cities being threatened with being overrun.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 01:52

Fapitalism: Apr 12, 2003; When Capitalism fails, you will always have Fapitalism.

ChaosSamusX posted:

I'm sure there will be negative fallout from this incident towards the coalition if even a tenth of the rumors about Ziwayah are true, but even I'm not that cynical.

It will happen, look at the Arab league this weekend. (not quotes)

Friday: We feel that this coalition is a good step towards ending Libyan bloodshed.
Sunday: We were not aware that the coalition would be taking such massive military steps to help civilians and are therefore questioning our backing of the plan.

Ziwayah will be the same, either the governments not participating in the coalition will question where the coalition was when Ziwayah was wiped out or they will take the stance of the rebels were basically done for before the coalition and therefore by the coalition bombing Libya they have prolonged the bloodshed.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 01:57

Narmi: Feb 26, 2008

Fapitalism posted:

It will happen, look at the Arab league this weekend. (not quotes)

Friday: We feel that this coalition is a good step towards ending Libyan bloodshed.
Sunday: We were not aware that the coalition would be taking such massive military steps to help civilians and are therefore questioning our backing of the plan.

Ziwayah will be the same, either the governments not participating in the coalition will question where the coalition was when Ziwayah was wiped out or they will take the stance of the rebels were basically done for before the coalition and therefore by the coalition bombing Libya they have prolonged the bloodshed.

It's already begun happening - I read that the UAE has already pulled out from offering military support, and is now saying they will only be offering humanitarian aid. If Qatar pulls out it will mean only western militaries will be engaging Gaddafi's forces.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 02:02

Fapitalism: Apr 12, 2003; When Capitalism fails, you will always have Fapitalism.

Narmi posted:

It's already begun happening - I read that the UAE has already pulled out from offering military support, and is now saying they will only be offering humanitarian aid. If Qatar pulls out it will mean only western militaries will be engaging Gaddafi's forces.

Yup, the Muslim world gets to paint America as the great evil once again. Weeks from now when the rebels have made no progress nobody will remember that there were multiple Arab countries onboard the coalition at the start, which will lead to further Western hatred.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 02:13

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 17:26

Ramms+ein: Nov 11, 2003; Henshin-a-go-go, baby!

Fapitalism posted:

Yup, the Muslim world gets to paint America as the great evil once again. Weeks from now when the rebels have made no progress nobody will remember that there were multiple Arab countries onboard the coalition at the start, which will lead to further Western hatred.

Well, seeing as how we are now engaged in official wars in no fewer than three Muslim countries, not counting Yemen and the allegations of military involvement in Somalia, I can certainly understand how someone who (possibly in reaction to the huge numbers of civilian deaths resulting from our sanctions and occupation of Iraq, for example)now categorically rejects US military operations in a Muslim country would be opposed on principle to our current venture in Libya.

That being said, it's certainly not the same as Iraq, although the fact that the opposition appears so fractured and disorganized and that the coalition hasn't been able to articulate a clear end-game scenario that would likely result from our current actions still gives me an ominous feeling. The specter of post-invasion Afghanistan looms.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 02:37

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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