Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

The Telegraph has just posted this story on how the airmen were treated:

quote:

Behind him his F15 Strike Eagle was a burning wreck. He had parachuted into a field of sheep somewhere near Benghazi airbase and needed to escape - his fellow crew member had landed in another field nearby.

Raising his hands in the air he called out "OK, OK" to greet the crowd. But he need not have worried.

"I hugged him and said don't be scared we are your friends," said Younis Amruni, 27.

The airman was one of dozens taking to the air to patrol a no-fly zone over Libya and take out Col Gaddafi's air defences.

They have turned the tide in the desert war, helping rebels keep the government from attacking their stronghold in Benghazi, about 45 minutes drive away.

A queue formed to shake the hand of the airman, as locals thanked him for his role in the attacks.

Witnesses said it was around midnight when they heard two planes streak out of the Libyan sky.

Mohamed Breek came out of his home a couple of hundred yards away to see what was happening above his flower-studded meadow.

"It was on fire," he said. "We didn't hear any shots it just fell from the sky by itself and then there was a big explosion."

A rescue helicopter swooped low to collect the second crew member - and strafed the ground to keep the locals at bay.

Bullets tore through Mr Amruni's driveway and gate.

"We are so grateful to these men who are protecting the skies," he said. "We gave him juice and then the revolutionary military people took him away."

On Tuesday morning the blackened wreckage was still smouldering. A guided missile lay at its side. The wings had been ripped from the long-range bomber and its two tail fins stood high above the grass, attracting opposition supporters and souvenir hunters alike.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 14:14

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 12:57

Stroh M.D.: Mar 19, 2011; The eyes can mislead, a smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth.

Brown Moses posted:

The Telegraph has just posted this story on how the airmen were treated:

I reckon he must have been the happiest pilot ever to crash a $31M dollar aircraft. I can't imagine the relief - air force pilots know full well what may happen to them if they end up in the wrong hands.

In fact, there's a cardinal rule of air combat: "Don't bail out over the target area you just bombed".

(As referenced here)

Stroh M.D. fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Mar 22, 2011

# ? Mar 22, 2011 14:21

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Just saw this on a reliable Twitter account:

quote:

Ajdabia is being shelled savagely right now, targeting civilian areas in what could only be described as revenge. #Libya

Seeing Gaddafi's forces are in control of this area, and there's apparently no fighting going on there yet, it sounds like punishment attacks.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 14:23

Lilac: Dec 8, 2005; by Fistgrrl

Speaking of weapons, anyone cast an eye on the new IRIS-T air to air missiles being deployed by fighter aircraft?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Iris.ogg

:aaa:

# ? Mar 22, 2011 14:25

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Tadhg posted:

BrownMoses made a good point a few days ago that a lot of news feeds are running wild with the Tweets regarding Libya. Somebody tweets it, somebody else retweets it, and then people claim that it's legit news. An example being the alleged rebel suicide pilot from a few days ago. I haven't seen anything verifying it, and to my knowledge official sources from the rebels deny it. (BTW, if this has been verified please post some links- it's something that even Qaddafi/Libya State TV is repeating, which is interesting.)

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3482834/Colonel-Gaddafis-commander-son-is-killed-by-Kamikaze-Libyan-pilot.html

It's on the front page of the UKs biggest selling newspaper today but I couldn't find a good image since my work connection is so slow. Settle for a picture of Murdochs face, which should make you more angry.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 14:26

Regnevelc: Jan 12, 2003; I'M A GROWN ASS MAN!

Narmi posted:

Jordan dedicated military assets to enforce the NFZ?

I read that on one of the news reports a week or so ago.

LITERALLY MAD IRL posted:

Yemeni. (Also, "Saudis")

Yeah, it was late

# ? Mar 22, 2011 14:30

Stroh M.D.: Mar 19, 2011; The eyes can mislead, a smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth.

Lilac posted:

Speaking of weapons, anyone cast an eye on the new IRIS-T air to air missiles being deployed by fighter aircraft?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Iris.ogg

I heard LOTR was very popular in Germany.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 14:34

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Before the air strikes, when it looked like everything was going wrong for the rebels, and journalists were either fleeing Benghazi or trapped in Tripoli hotels, most news reports seemed to consist of reprints of AFP or AP stories, a lot of which were relying on Libyan State TV for information.

Now the bombing has started sources that were previously ignored are being used for news stories. The Sun story posted above doesn't state what sources it's using, but I'm 100% sure they are just basing this off reports from Twitter, because I'd know if it had been mentioned by a more reliable source. They basically are looking for exciting news stories to fill a few pages while people are still interested, so their first stop is Twitter. Just vaguely refer to @Libyadude85 as "sources" and you can publish any rumour you like.

Having said that, the Khamis rumour is one of the most persistant, and past rumours seem to have been purposely dismissed by the Gaddafi regime in speeches or appearences, while Khamis hasn't been seen since the supposed attack.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 14:34

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

A good Reuters story about the changing attitude of people in Tripoli:

quote:

Criticism of Gaddafi grows bolder in Libyan capital
TRIPOLI, March 22 (Reuters) - After days of Western air strikes, some people in the Libyan capital felt bold enough on Tuesday to drop their customary praise of leader Muammar Gaddafi for a few moments and say instead they want him gone.

Residents who spoke to Reuters reporters in Tripoli were still too wary to give their names, and switched back to extolling Gaddafi when officials came within earshot.

But their willingness to openly criticise the man who has led the country for four decades was a marked change from the normal pattern, when people have been too frightened of retribution to speak candidly to reporters in the street.

"Here, everyone is waiting. It's not like before," said one man, who steered a reporter away from a government minder towards a coffee shop in Tripoli's medina, or old city, so he could speak freely.

"My children are afraid but I know it's all changing. This is the end. The government has no control any more."

Keeping public opinion on his side in Tripoli is vital to Gaddafi's grip on power because the capital is his biggest remaining stronghold, after the next two biggest cities in Libya were taken over by rebels.

"CRITICAL MOMENT"

In the medina, the sound of pro-Gaddafi songs could be heard from nearby Green Square, where a handful of supporters was holding a rally. Their numbers were sharply down on the thousands who were gathering a few weeks ago.

Isa, a bespectacled businessman with family in Britain, praised Gaddafi when a minder was close, but when the official moved away he changed tack.

"This is the moment. It's critical. The bombs are booming at night. But we are watching the sky and we see the world is trying to help," he said.

A man working in a clothing shop did not want to give his name because he said it was too risky for him to be identified, but he did say: "We want Gaddafi to go."

"We are happy that the West is attacking his forces but we don't want them to get rid of him. We want to do it ourselves. Libyans should get rid of him."

In another change from the usual reticence shown by people in Tripoli around foreign reporters, a man working in a jewelry shop gave his opinion without being asked.

"He (Gaddafi) should have handled it differently. He opened fire on those protesters. They had a legitimate cause. We want changes in this country now."

Gaddafi and his officials say the rebels are al Qaeda militants who are trying to destroy the country.

"Don't believe any of this," said the man in the jewelry shop. "It has nothing to do with al Qaeda."

"These are protests against the system. We all know that Gaddafi is the problem," he said. Moments later a minder walked into the shop and the shopkeeper fell silent.

This article is a good example of the other problem with news reprots from Tripoli, a lot of interviews with the people of Tripoli are being done in the presence of minders, so it's important to look at the context and source of any news story, and question what you are reading.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 14:38

Alphamale968: Sep 17, 2006

I sincerely hope that the F-15 pilot was wearing Spongebob socks. Because I was promised there would be no boots on the ground in Libya.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 14:39

LO Technology: Mar 5, 2011; by Fistgrrl

Stroh M.D. posted:

Not surprising, you're government talked about sending fighters to enforce an NFZ regardless of what anyone else planned to do. They basically claimed you would do it solo if it came to that.

I called bullshit on that one. But it still shows one hell of a commitment when you can gain political points by insisting on sending more troops,into even more dangerous situations if need be.

As for the US, they were pretty open about taking the back seat from day 1 and pulling out once the majority of the dirty work is done. The plan has always been to make this primarily a Euro op.

I wouldn't call outright bullshit on that one. We would probably have intervened anyway. Almost all political parties here agreed that we wouldn't accept Mr. Gadaffis response to our polite request about please stopping killing civilians, by showing us his middle finger. We are in no way a large nation, but I doubt Mr. Gadiffis F1ADs would be a very effective weapon against our F-16A/Bs and pilots.

This is by no means the first time Denmark assist our closest allies. We've been pretty active in the Green Zone in Afghanistan for years and, compared to our size, has accepted a good deal of casualties without a major public whining. We kicked a considerable amount of rear end in Bosnia too.

Most Danes aren't really proud about our participation in these wars, but truth is that the majority of us would feel rather ashamed if we rejected a request for assistance from NATO, the UN or the US.

What surprised me is that the public support for our participation in this event apparently is way more massive than the support for staying in Green Zone.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 14:41

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

The LibyaTNC twitter account just started up after 10 days of silence, posting loads of links at the moment:
http://twitter.com/LibyanTNC

# ? Mar 22, 2011 14:51

Fidel Cuckstro: Jul 2, 2007

Rosscifer posted:

Looking at this situation as an us versus them dynamic is shortsighted. Just because this area was violently anti-American doesn't mean it's bad policy to help them now. People crowded the streets of Benghazi to cheer when the no-fly zone was established. Think about all the good will that this has bought.

The concern isn't that we're helping our enemies, it's that we're charging in to a situation where few people understand the tribal and regional politics driving events, and that there are reasons for this rebellion happening aside from the good guys wanting to institute a good country and big jerk Gadaffi won't let them.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 14:53

Stroh M.D.: Mar 19, 2011; The eyes can mislead, a smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth.

LO Technology posted:

I wouldn't call outright bullshit on that one. We would probably have intervened anyway. Almost all political parties here agreed that we wouldn't accept Mr. Gadaffis response to our polite request about please stopping killing civilians, by showing us his middle finger. We are in no way a large nation, but I doubt Mr. Gadiffis F1ADs would be a very effective weapon against our F-16A/Bs and pilots.

This is by no means the first time Denmark assist our closest allies. We've been pretty active in the Green Zone in Afghanistan for years and, compared to our size, has accepted a good deal of casualties without a major public whining. We kicked a considerable amount of rear end in Bosnia too.

Most Danes aren't really proud about our participation in these wars, but truth is that the majority of us would feel rather ashamed if we rejected a request for assistance from NATO, the UN or the US.

What surprised me is that the public support for our participation in this event apparently is way more massive than the support for staying in Green Zone.

As great respect as I hold for the Danish air force, there's no way in hell you could have done this all on your own. Hell, without NATO-support you wouldn't even have had bases in striking range.

The NFZ has been as successful as it has because of a level of firepower involved that Denmark couldn't have put on the table on its own. Not to mention intelligence from NATO espionage agencies, satellites and on-the-ground spec ops units. You haven't even got you own AWACs!

Sure, you would have kicked the Libyan air forces collective rear end in an air-to-air engagement. But you would have put up to half you're air force at risk of being downed by SAMs alone.

What I'm referring to is the talk from some Danish politicians about truly soloing it on this one - going in regardless of resolution and NATO decisions.

I'm Swedish. If we pooled all the assets of the Nordic nations for this and managed to borrow a few Italian bases, together we might have been able to pull it off. But none of us could have done it alone.

As for the Swedish contribution, I truly hope our politicians succeed in the quest of finding their balls and actually send those 8 Gripen that have literally been hugging the tarmac in preparation for precisely this kind of mission. I would love to see them accompany yours and Norways F-16s in the air above Libya right now.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 15:08

Spiky Ooze: Oct 27, 2005; Bernie Sanders is a friend to my planet (pictured)

click the shit outta^

Yemen's leader says he'll resign this year:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42207275/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

# ? Mar 22, 2011 15:19

ZenMaster: Jan 24, 2006; I Saved PC Gaming

Annnnnnddddd... we've reached critical mass whereas some Dems are now accusing Obama of trying to steal oil as his motivation for bombing Lybia as GWB quietly chuckles. Enjoy, Barack... enjoy.

"We are in Libya because of oil. It all goes back to the five million barrels of oil we import from OPEC on a daily basis."

-- Rep. Edward Markey, D-Mass., on MSNBC speaking in support of President Obama�s attack on Libya.

Ok, maybe not out and out steal it, but come on, people.

ZenMaster fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Mar 22, 2011

# ? Mar 22, 2011 15:20

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

There's nothing quite so blatant in exposing someone who only relies on rhetoric and ideological blather to paper over their own ignorance as a changing situation.

Somewhere the ghost of Decatur is shouting Remember the Philadelphia!

# ? Mar 22, 2011 15:25

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Did he happen to post that comment on a newspaper comment section, because that sounds like the drivel that gets posted on them.

Zintan

quote:

Almanara Media Alghaba AsSufla area in Az Zintan has been completely liberated from Gaddafi forces by the revolutionaries. The revolutionaries are are still surrounding the security battalions near the weapon and munition stores/dumps. There are currently convoys of mercenaries moving from the direction of Ghadames from the areas of Darj Al Qaryah and Feenawn. These mercenary convoys are on their way to Az Zintan and Nalut to act as reinforcements to the remaining Gaddafi battalions.

Almanara Media is a bit of a unestablished source, but they're at least consistant about their claims of what is going on in Zintan.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 15:28

Vir: Dec 14, 2007; Does it tickle when your Body Thetans flap their wings, eh Beatrice?

Groan. We're there more despite the oil.

Stroh M.D. posted:

You haven't even got you own AWACs!

Few countries have their own full-scale AWACS. The US and UK have them, but NATO has them too, and there's Norwegian and Danish personnel who fly on them.

Norway has P-3 Orion surveillance planes and Denmark uses the CL-604 Challenger (originally a business jet), but they're more for marine surveillance (ships) than airspace and land surveillance.

NATO countries are geared towards complementing each others' forces. Norway has an excellent attack submarine force and frigates, but doesn't have any landing craft, for example. Until a few years ago when the F-16s were upgraded, we didn't have a night-time air-to-ground attack capability either.

It's theoretically possible that Denmark could enforce the no-fly zone alone, even flying from Denmark, but they'd still need overflight permissions. Bases in the Med would be needed for it to be realistic, and they would probably be limited to protecting eastern Libya.

Vir fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Mar 22, 2011

# ? Mar 22, 2011 15:31

AreWeDrunkYet: Jul 8, 2006

ZenMaster posted:

Annnnnnddddd... we've reached critical mass whereas some Dems are now accusing Obama of trying to steal oil as his motivation for bombing Lybia as GWB quietly chuckles. Enjoy, Barack... enjoy.

"We are in Libya because of oil. It all goes back to the five million barrels of oil we import from OPEC on a daily basis."

-- Rep. Edward Markey, D-Mass., on MSNBC speaking in support of President Obama�s attack on Libya.

Ok, maybe not out and out steal it, but come on, people.

Is he wrong? Would there be a military response to Libya if it wasn't strategically important?

Clearly that's not the only reason behind it, but oil is no small part of the reason there are Western planes over Libya and not any number of other countries where human rights abuses are taking place.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 15:35

scaevola: Jan 25, 2011

Stroh M.D. posted:

I heard LOTR was very popular in Germany.

If nothing else, it's clear why they're called "Iris"

# ? Mar 22, 2011 15:37

kw0134: Apr 19, 2003; I buy feet pics🍆

DeclaredYuppie posted:

The concern isn't that we're helping our enemies, it's that we're charging in to a situation where few people understand the tribal and regional politics driving events, and that there are reasons for this rebellion happening aside from the good guys wanting to institute a good country and big jerk Gadaffi won't let them.

No one knows with absolute certainty how the tribal faultlines will quake after all is said and done, and it is not an unfounded fear, but it's also true that there is very broad support regardless of region for the rebellion. The article above about Tripoli, supposedly Qadaffi's strongest base of support, shows that the level of dissent is proximate to the amount of government firepower that can be immediately brought to bear as a "rebuttal." A reminder too that Tripoli experienced heavy protests before troops were let loose on the population; this would indicate that the rebellion strongly crosses tribal lines and cannot be reduced to a simple east/west Libya conflict.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Libya is now very heavily urbanized. When Qadaffi took power, where one lived in the interior was important, but now some like 90% of the population lives in a city along the coast. There's been a steady erosion of said ties to familial lands and peoples, something which we can ironically thank Qadaffi for.

I won't expect a fairy tale ending where everyone lives happily ever after, but I think also people are giving too much thought on supposed tribes when the entire nation at some point has been in protests.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 15:39

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Misrata

quote:

Spokesman for the revolution�s media desk in Misratah gave a comprehensive update to Alarabiya TV this morning. We have translated his update for you:
Spokesman: (Battalions) Around the city of Misratah which it has formed a blockade around for 4 weeks till now. These battalions have closed the main entrance and exit points to the city from the east, west, south and south west. But the forces that were on the gates of the city and which attempted to break in from the western region specifically via Tripoli Street, this is the battalion that was responsible for the bombarding, firing and destruction that was caused to the people of Misratah over the psat 48 hours. They were also responsible for the massacres that also resulted in the deaths of 5 children, 4 of which belong to one family while they were attempting to run away from the bombardment and shelling of these brutal battalion.

News Anchor: So the bombing is continuing?

Spokesman: Sorry I did not hear the question

News Anchor: The bombing is continuous?

Spokesman: The bombing comes and goes. For example, during this morning we heard a variance in the bombing that happened in the center of the city and the residential areas. Sometimes it becomes very heavy then it lessens. It seems that these battalions have positioned themselves in specific areas in the entrance of Misratah in Tripoli Street in an attempt to go �around� the city behind Misratah Central Hospital. It seems that the revolutionary youth, based on the report I have just received, the youth and the city�s residents managed to surround these battalions on the spot, and they are now cornered by the revolutionaries.

Regarding the snipers, this is a vicious tactic that these battalion forces have used during the past while. These snipers have been positioned atop high buildings and given orders to kill anyone who passes in front of their sight from innocent civilians, revolutionaries as well as targeting families which is in their line of fire in the residential areas that are neighbouring to these tall buildings. This has made the situation more difficult, in terms of weeding out these battalions from the western entrance.

News Anchor: Alright, what in your opinions prevents the coalition forces from attacking these forces? Is it because they are close to the city? Perhaps because they are present in and amongst the residential areas?

Spokesman: In my opinion, the bet was on �time� from the beginning, starting from the first ceasefire pantomime that the regime concocted in an attempt to buy some time till its battalions were able to enter into the city�s residential areas and centralize in them. Naturally, this will make the coalition forces unable to air strike these battalions without causing damage to residential areas and killing civilians.

As for the battalions which are centralized on the western and eastern entrances to the city, then it is these forces that we hope will be targeted with air strikes from coalition forces. That, and I point to the fact that the coalition forces had completed air strikes on the Air force college south of Misratah where a number of battalion forces were based. We expect that it positively caused a severe blow to their abilities. That said, we are hopeful that the forces that are still surrounding the city for the past 4 weeks will also be targeted.

Yafran

quote:

There are further reports of fighting on the ground between pro-Gaddafi forces and the rebels. The AFP news agency says at least nine people were killed in clashes on Monday and Tuesday in the rebel-controlled town of Yafran, 130km (80 miles) south-west of Tripoli.

Ajdabiya

quote:

Al Jazeera's correspondent, James Bays, who is 9km from Ajdabiya, said that rebel fighters were attacked 800m from where they are stationed.

"Fighters gathered up there and one of their vehicles was hit ... all fighters fled that position and are now where I am, which is basically the front line," he said.

"Their vehicle was hit by tank round or a missile. I don't think anyone was hurt.

No one really is making any progress. The oppositon are where they were 24 hours ago ... They are lightly armed volunteers ... a professional officer on the rebel side told me they're very brave but to the point of being suicidal.

"Gaddafi forces are much more heavily armed. The opposition have the numbers and they seem to have the momentum but on the other side the Gaddafi forces have the power."

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Mar 22, 2011

# ? Mar 22, 2011 15:40

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

AreWeDrunkYet posted:

Is he wrong? Would there be a military response to Libya if it wasn't strategically important?

Clearly that's not the only reason behind it, but oil is no small part of the reason there are Western planes over Libya and not any number of other countries where human rights abuses are taking place.

It's reducing a complex situation down to one simple arguement that doesn't reflect the true nature of the various issues at hand.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 15:41

Vir: Dec 14, 2007; Does it tickle when your Body Thetans flap their wings, eh Beatrice?

AreWeDrunkYet posted:

Is he wrong? Would there be a military response to Libya if it wasn't strategically important?

Yes it might. After Rwanda, Bosnia and Somalia, the "responsibility to protect" has been incorporated in international law to make the world responsible to intervene in these kinds of situations in what is otherwise thought of as internal issues.

AreWeDrunkYet posted:

Clearly that's not the only reason behind it, but oil is no small part of the reason there are Western planes over Libya and not any number of other countries where human rights abuses are taking place.

A more important strategic consideration is its location. The guy should look at a map. If the oil was the motivation, then the US would have vetoed intervention to keep Gaddafi happy and the oil flowing.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 15:42

LO Technology: Mar 5, 2011; by Fistgrrl

Stroh M.D. posted:

As great respect as I hold for the Danish air force, there's no way in hell you could have done this all on your own. Hell, without NATO-support you wouldn't even have had bases in striking range.

The NFZ has been as successful as it has because of a level of firepower involved that Denmark couldn't have put on the table on its own. Not to mention intelligence from NATO espionage agencies, satellites and on-the-ground spec ops units. You haven't even got you own AWACs!

Sure, you would have kicked the Libyan air forces collective rear end in an air-to-air engagement. But you would have put up to half you're air force at risk of being downed by SAMs alone.

What I'm referring to is the talk from some Danish politicians about truly soloing it on this one - going in regardless of resolution and NATO decisions.

I'm Swedish. If we pooled all the assets of the Nordic nations for this and managed to borrow a few Italian bases, together we might have been able to pull it off. But none of us could have done it alone.

As for the Swedish contribution, I truly hope our politicians succeed in the quest of finding their balls and actually send those 8 Gripen that have literally been hugging the tarmac in preparation for precisely this kind of mission. I would love to see them accompany yours and Norways F-16s in the air above Libya right now.

I agree that it would have been a stupid move, but we would most likely have done it anyway. Most of our citizens were prepared to accept casualties if needed. I'd also be a bit surprised if a single AWACS from a friendly country wouldn't have assisted. Luckily for the pilots it didn't came to that though.

Our Prime Minister has just announced that we support the US wish of retreating. The situation should now be controllable by the UK, Italy and Denmark. Just keep your silly SAABs at home, seems like they're not really needed for now

Don't worry. We won't ship all our birds or guns. Don't get any silly ideas, Swede. If we feel like reclaiming Sk�ne, Halland and Blekinge we're still prepared

# ? Mar 22, 2011 15:42

Nih: Oct 22, 2008

I'm Danish and I never heard anything about "doing it solo". There was talk about possibly participating in a "coalition of the willing" if the UN or NATO were unable to agree on anything in time to save the civilians, but that's hardly the same.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 15:46

HeroOfTheRevolution: Apr 26, 2008

Saying it's to steal oil is a horrible, horrible fallacy. Considering Gaddafi basically hoarded the oil wealth for himself, if he was to fall and a democratically elected regime emerge in his place (a big if, of course), and the oil wealth was to be distributed by the market and not by the elites, then Libya's people would generally benefit as a result. It's not like the money oil-guzzling nations pay for oil goes poof, it's just that it too often goes straight into the Swiss bank accounts of dictators in control of the supply.

Sure, there's Western oil interests at stake, but if everything goes the way we want it to (it probably won't), it will surely benefit the Libyan people as well. Of course, this was what people said in Iraq, too. It's all a matter of getting a functioning government in place, and I don't necessarily mean one eating out of the West's hands. In fact, for the Libyan people, that's exactly what they don't need. But there's also a big difference between a puppet government and a belligerently hostile one, and while I'm not necessarily optimistic, somewhere in between them is where I'd like to see Libya (and the rest of the Arab Spring potential-democracies) eventually go.

HeroOfTheRevolution fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Mar 22, 2011

# ? Mar 22, 2011 15:49

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

And here is the Guardian:

quote:

China has called for an immediate ceasefire in Libya, AP is reporting.

The agency said foreign ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu told a news conference Tuesday that China wants an immediate cease-fire and talks to end the violence.

China was one of five countries that abstained from last week's vote on the UN resolution.

quote:

Ian said it appeared Gaddafi's Bab al-Aziziya complex, which was hit on Sunday night, had been struck again, but says there "seemed to be less air activity last night than on the previous two nights" in the capital. "Maybe that reflects the international aspect of this crisis, where we're hearing so much about divisions and squabbling about exactly what this war is supposed to be about, and what it's supposed to achieve," Ian said.

Libyan officials have admitted privately � it's not the kind of thing they say in public � that yes, [the military action] has been effective, their air defence system has been demolished. They say � and of course there's no way of checking this � that there have been no flights inside Libya since last Thursday night when the UN security council passed its resolution. They like to portray themselves as being obedient and accepting the writ of the UN, at the same time as complaining that what the UN authorised was the protection of civilians and the complaint in Tripoli is what's happening is going far beyond that.

quote:

The Guardian's security and defence correspondent, Nick Hopkins, says the row over whether or not Gaddafi is a target for coalition forces will be a major issue for the [UK] MoD again today.

The problem is that I think there's a disagreement over definitions essentially. I think the MoD would accept that under international law there is a case for Gaddafi being a legitimate target, but they're not targeting him � they haven't done so far and they're unlikely to, and they won't unless they're explicitly told to by the Foreign Office. I think in some ways it's an argument over semantics, but the fact it's going on is just embarrassing and a huge diversion at a time when they should be concentrating on other things.

quote:

More on those Ajdabiya air strikes � Chris McGreal has been on the phone from the outskirts of the city, where he has seen four large plumes of smoke after hearing aircraft overhead.

The presumed air strikes occurred around 9.15 GMT after what had been a quiet morning. Chris says the rebels appear to have learned their lesson after the debacle yesterday when they rushed into the town after some air strikes only to flee in chaos when they came under fire from Gaddafi's tanks. He added that the rebels will be more careful now to make sure that Gaddafi's armour and heavy weapons in and around Ajdabiya are destroyed before they try to enter the city.

Chris reports that the fight for Ajdabiya has been going on for 10 days now but that the rebels remain disorganised militarily and that the air strikes have proved utterly decisive; on Saturday Gaddafi's forces were fighting inside Benghazi, now they are defending Ajdabiya, 100 miles from the rebel stronghold. That is very much due to air power.

Here is Chris's vivid account of the rebel debacle yesterday.

quote:

US Defence Secretary Robert Gates has arrived in Moscow for talks on Libya, in the middle of the first major public disagreement between President Dmitry Medvedev and Prime Minister Vladimir Putin.

Gates will not meet Putin but will see Medvedev, Reuters reports. Yesterday Medvedev said he did not consider the UN resolution to be wrong � in stark contrast with Putin, who compared the military action to "medieval calls for crusades".

On his flight to Russia, Gates praised strengthening ties with Moscow and noted that Russian leaders "despite their reservations" chose not to vote against the UN Security Council resolution authorising military action in Libya. Russia abstained along with Brazil, China, Germany and India.

Yesterday Putin compared action on Libya to the Iraq invasion and said it showed Russia was right to spend billions on its military. He told workers at a missile factory in Votkinsk in central Russia that the UN security council resolution was flawed and it "resembles medieval calls for crusades".

quote:

Chris McGreal has just been on the line from the outskirts of Ajdabiya. He said he has heard planes flying overhead for about an hour, and has heard a number of "very large" explosions and can see black smoke rising from the city and the surrounding area.

"We have to assume coalition aircraft are attacking Gaddafi forces around Ajdabiya," Chris said.

However there is still "incoming shellfire" periodically towards rebel forces from the Ajdabiya frontline, Chris added, suggesting that the air attacks have not knocked out all the positions yet.

quote:

Sam Jones writes that according to Reuters, 40 people were killed yesterday as Gaddafi's tanks shelled the rebel-held western city of Misrata � and there appears to be no let-up today.

Residents have told the news agency that casualties in today's fighting include four children who were killed after the car they were travelling in was hit.
"The situation here is very bad. Tanks started shelling the town this morning," a resident, called Mohammed, told Reuters by telephone from outside the city's hospital, adding:
"Snipers are taking part in the operation too. A civilian car was destroyed killing four children on board, the oldest is aged 13 years."

quote:

AP is reporting that two Qatar air force Mirage 2000 fighter jets and a C-17 cargo aircraft were heading to Crete in the first sign of military operations by Qatar so far to help enforce the no-fly zone. The planes made an unscheduled stop at Lanarca, Cyprus. Cypriot authorities initially refused the aircraft's request to land for the unscheduled stop, but later granted permission after the pilots declared a fuel emergency.

quote:

France's foreign ministry has said that NATO could provide support to military intervention by the Western-led coalition in Libya when the US scales back involvement, Reuters reports.

"When the Americans decide to take a bit of a step back, NATO could come in to support, that seems fairly clear," the news agency quoted foreign ministry spokeswoman Christine Fages as saying.

A heated meeting of NATO ambassadors on Monday failed to agree on whether the 28-nation alliance should run the operation to enforce a U.N.-mandated no-fly zone.
Forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi attacked a town near Tripoli on Tuesday after a third night of air raids on the capital, but the Western campaign faced questions over the future of its command structure.

quote:

Reuters is reporting that Algeria's foreign minister has said Western military intervention in Libya is "disproportionate" and must end immediately. Algeria is a member of the Arab league.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 15:49

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Nih posted:

I'm Danish and I never heard anything about "doing it solo". There was talk about possibly participating in a "coalition of the willing" if the UN or NATO were unable to agree on anything in time to save the civilians, but that's hardly the same.

You wouldn't have had to. Although the US always takes the headlines since it is the premier military power this intervention is being driven from Europe. The Danish belligerence(not quite the right word) is only part of a larger movement in Europe's capitals to intervene here, for a variety of reasons.

That's why the argument about why the US is involved for oil are idiotic, it isn't really being sold to us. I don't think Europe is in this for the oil either, but at least if we were to make that charge it would have a hope of being more accurate.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 15:53

Vir: Dec 14, 2007; Does it tickle when your Body Thetans flap their wings, eh Beatrice?

LO Technology posted:

Don't worry. We won't ship all our birds or guns. Don't get any silly ideas, Swede. If we feel like reclaiming Sk�ne, Halland and Blekinge we're still prepared

No you're not. Just like Norway, Denmark doesn't have any landing craft either. But Sweden does.

HMS Loke II
Sv�vare 2000

Vir fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Mar 22, 2011

# ? Mar 22, 2011 15:55

Fidel Cuckstro: Jul 2, 2007

kw0134 posted:

No one knows with absolute certainty how the tribal faultlines will quake after all is said and done, and it is not an unfounded fear, but it's also true that there is very broad support regardless of region for the rebellion. The article above about Tripoli, supposedly Qadaffi's strongest base of support, shows that the level of dissent is proximate to the amount of government firepower that can be immediately brought to bear as a "rebuttal." A reminder too that Tripoli experienced heavy protests before troops were let loose on the population; this would indicate that the rebellion strongly crosses tribal lines and cannot be reduced to a simple east/west Libya conflict.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Libya is now very heavily urbanized. When Qadaffi took power, where one lived in the interior was important, but now some like 90% of the population lives in a city along the coast. There's been a steady erosion of said ties to familial lands and peoples, something which we can ironically thank Qadaffi for.

I won't expect a fairy tale ending where everyone lives happily ever after, but I think also people are giving too much thought on supposed tribes when the entire nation at some point has been in protests.

Agreed- I don't necessarily think we're getting into Iraq/Afganistan 2.0 (3.0?) in Lybia, although it's a possible outcome.

Also I think we'd agree that it's important to caution that an agreement between various factions in Libya that they don't like Qadaffi doesn't necessarily mean they'll agree about much else once a new government needs to be finalized and decisions about who is in charge of what is divvied up.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 15:55

HeroOfTheRevolution: Apr 26, 2008

Putin sure is one shrewd guy. It's all theater, of course. Putin gets to play Nevsky raging against the European Hordes and maintain his cult of personality, while Medvedev actually advances Russia's true position on it and doesn't step on any toes. It's great politics.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 15:56

LO Technology: Mar 5, 2011; by Fistgrrl

Nih posted:

I'm Danish and I never heard anything about "doing it solo". There was talk about possibly participating in a "coalition of the willing" if the UN or NATO were unable to agree on anything in time to save the civilians, but that's hardly the same.

http://www.b.dk/politiko/loekke-aabner-for-flyveforbud-over-libyen-0

Sorry, the above link is in Danish. Technically we were ready, if the Arab League requested a NFZ.

Vir posted:

No you're not. Just like Norway, Denmark doesn't have any landing craft either. But Sweden does.
HMS Loke II
Sv�vare 2000

Wake up. We just build a bridge to your silly country.

LO Technology fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Mar 22, 2011

# ? Mar 22, 2011 16:02

Stroh M.D.: Mar 19, 2011; The eyes can mislead, a smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth.

LO Technology posted:

I agree that it would have been a stupid move, but we would most likely have done it anyway. Most of our citizens were prepared to accept casualties if needed. I'd also be a bit surprised if a single AWACS from a friendly country wouldn't have assisted. Luckily for the pilots it didn't came to that though.

Our Prime Minister has just announced that we support the US wish of retreating. The situation should now be controllable by the UK, Italy and Denmark. Just keep your silly SAABs at home, seems like they're not really needed for now

Don't worry. We won't ship all our birds or guns. Don't get any silly ideas, Swede. If we feel like reclaiming Sk�ne, Halland and Blekinge we're still prepared

Hey, don't forget about the Norwegian, Spanish, Italian, Canadian and Qatar(ian?) contributions.

As for the claim, it was somewhen around Thursday and was made by a politician from R�dgr�ne (I think they're called) and can be found somewhere in the this thread (translated to the "Red Green Party")

And come on, we both know full well that a war between Denmark and Sweden would just end with either side blowing the �resund Bridge, which would be it, seeing how neither of us have true amphibic capabilities

End of derail.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 16:14

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Opposition to the no fly zone is being protested:

quote:

If the Arab world remains uneasy about the no-fly zone, there is little sign of reluctance among the Libyan rebels. The Libya desk at the BBC World Service has learned that representatives of the rebels' Transitional national Council in Benghazi have called a protest for Tuesday evening against Russia's calls for the air strikes and the no-fly zone to be suspended. They expect a significant turn-out. One resident told the BBC: "We are happy about air strikes. Without them Benghazi would have been destroyed. Gaddafi's forces brought long line of tanks with weapons to destroy us. Without french air strikes on saturday we would be dead. WE think it's a good step. The UN is helping us." Another said: "We are happy the coalition strikes are here. It saved Benghazi from absolute disaster."

quote:

The Guardian's Martin Chulov is outside where the Arab League have been meeting today in Cairo.

"There's been large numbers of protesters outside," Martin says. "Around about 500 of them, most of them carrying the new Libyan flag, which is actually the original Libyan flag before Gaddafi's rule, they're waving that along with Egypt's flag. Half of these protesters are Libyans, half are Egyptians, and they're calling on the secretary general of the Arab league, Amr Moussa, to clarify his position on the no-fly zone."

quote:
[The Arab League] will need to declare their hand today. Amr Moussa's under a lot of pressure to clarify what it is that he is looking for in Libya and what it is that he will accept. It all comes down to a definition of what is a no-fly zone. There seems to be a mood within the organisation that there was almost a rush into battle as Gaddafi's forces advanced on Benghazi on Saturday. They say there wasn't a battle plan, there needs to be one, and there needs to be some clarity about outcomes. The Arab League are looking to work towards a statement which they will release tonight which they hope will get rid of any ambiguity.

Update on the pilots that were picked up from The Guardian:

quote:

Tom Kington files this for the Guardian from onboard the USS Kearsarge:

quote:
One of two American pilots who crashed in Libya on Monday night was in good condition on Tuesday onboard a US Navy vessel in the Mediterranean after being rescued by a Marine helicopter.

Two crew members of a US Air Force F-15E Strike Eagle ejected over northeast Libya at 10.30pm local time on Monday after their aircraft experienced a malfunction, the US military has said.

The whereabouts of one pilot is unknown, although the US military said he was 'safe'. The second was picked up by an Osprey tiltrotor helicopter, flown by the US Marines from the USS Kearsarge, an amphibious assault ship now stationed in the Mediterranean.

The Kearsarge hosts four Ospreys � which can use their twin rotors to take off like a helicopter before the rotors swivel in flight into vertical position to allow it to fly like an aeroplane. Harrier jets have also been undertaking raids on Libya from the vessel.
Two Ospreys, complete with a crew of four and a 12 strong Marine rescue team, took part in the rescue of the F-15E pilot, who was reported to be in good condition aboard the Kearsarge on Tuesday. The rescue marked the first time Ospreys have flown over Libya.
The F-15E, which is based at RAF Lakenheath, was flying out of Aviano airbase in Italy.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Mar 22, 2011

# ? Mar 22, 2011 16:14

Stroh M.D.: Mar 19, 2011; The eyes can mislead, a smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth.

LO Technology posted:

http://www.b.dk/politiko/loekke-aabner-for-flyveforbud-over-libyen-0

Sorry, the above link is in Danish. Technically we were ready, if the Arab League requested a NFZ.

Wake up. We just build a bridge to your silly country.

Which, in the case that either side did something stupid like trying to drive an armoured column over it, would be blown to high hell in 0.3 seconds.

Seriously though, end of derail!

# ? Mar 22, 2011 16:21

Tarnek: Nov 4, 2009

Those protests in Benghazi would make it very hard for the spineless nations that want the intervention to stop because "they want what's best for the Libyan people", ie "no bombings of civilians", by which they mean no intervention at all.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 16:25

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

It wouldn't suprise me if you saw larger protests after Friday prayers in Benghazi supporting the NFZ as well.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 16:26

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 12:57

Slantedfloors: Apr 29, 2008; Wait, What?

Tarnek posted:

Those protests in Benghazi would make it very hard for the spineless nations that want the intervention to stop because "they want what's best for the Libyan people", ie "no bombings of civilians", by which they mean no intervention at all.

Most of the governments opposed to the NFZ are authoritarian dictatorships. They don't give a poo poo about their own people, why the gently caress would they care what a bunch of Libyans want?

# ? Mar 22, 2011 16:32

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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