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Zintanquote:Fighting in the western city of Zintan, near the border with Tunisia, has now subsided, an eyewitness has told BBC Arabic. The witness, Abdul, said: "Right now, it is calmer than it was in the morning, when there was fighting and shelling in the east of the city. Those Gaddafi forces have now withdrawn. However, 50 to 60 tanks have massed at the northern entrance to the city. Gaddafi's forces have also cut off the electricity."
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Mar 22, 2011 16:34
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Brown Moses posted:Opposition to the no fly zone is being protested: Putin isn't a total moron - not by a long shot - but this recent statement might have been an honest to goodness brainfart from his side. He has a history of making Sarah Palin'esque statements from time to time. You might remember one of these being that Putin thought Bush had fired Dan Rather, when Rather still wasn't fired, and it was CBS who eventually removed him from 60 Minutes.
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Mar 22, 2011 16:36
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Ajdabiyaquote:BREAKING Benghazi quote:Western warplanes attacked a military aircraft belonging to Muammar Gaddafi's armed forces that was flying towards the rebel-held city of Benghazi.
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Mar 22, 2011 16:36
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Slantedfloors posted:Most of the governments opposed to the NFZ are authoritarian dictatorships. They don't give a poo poo about their own people, why the gently caress would they care what a bunch of Libyans want? It's not like I trust these claims. They just want to bash the western powers "CRUSADERS!" (Russia - Putin) or keep their backs free in case the intervention gets very violent or outdrawn (Germany). Or, worst of all, they don't want these kinds of interventions to become accepted in case they themselves will have to brutally opress protestors against their own regime (Most of them I guess).
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Mar 22, 2011 16:38
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americanmilitary.txtquote:Six villagers in a field on the outskirts of Benghazi were shot and injured when a US helicopter landed to rescue a crew member from the crashed jet, reports Lindsey Hilsum.
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Mar 22, 2011 16:40
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Brown Moses posted:americanmilitary.txt This is pretty much exactly why US involvement should be minimal.
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Mar 22, 2011 16:42
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I know this might sound a bit reactionary to the situation, but does anyone else see this as a possible WW3 scenario? Almost the entire Middle East is in some form of conflict, Russian leaders are fractured, China is starting to weigh in heavily. Pretty scary if you ask me.
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Mar 22, 2011 16:42
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DeclaredYuppie posted:Agreed- I don't necessarily think we're getting into Iraq/Afganistan 2.0 (3.0?) in Lybia, although it's a possible outcome.
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Mar 22, 2011 16:42
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Vir posted:They should be anti-Putin protests. Even better would be if the pro-Gaddafi protests had some pro-Putin posters in them. Are you kidding me? He gets to play the great Russian patriot in front of his own people while his lapdog quietly acquiesces to world opinion. It's a win-win situation for him. ODC posted:I know this might sound a bit reactionary to the situation, but does anyone else see this as a possible WW3 scenario? Uh, no.
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Mar 22, 2011 16:43
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ODC posted:I know this might sound a bit reactionary to the situation, but does anyone else see this as a possible WW3 scenario? WW3 over what? Splintered Arabic states in revolt? China has far too much money invested across the world to want to lose it all fighting a pointless war over some other countries.
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Mar 22, 2011 16:44
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ODC posted:I know this might sound a bit reactionary to the situation, but does anyone else see this as a possible WW3 scenario? Don't be dumb. The likelihood of WW3 to start over the current ME situation is as unlikely as...I can't even think of something that unlikely. Giraffes gaining the power of speech and seizing control of Brazil (for the trees), maybe. Slantedfloors fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Mar 22, 2011 |
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Mar 22, 2011 16:45
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Vir posted:Yes it might. After Rwanda, Bosnia and Somalia, the "responsibility to protect" has been incorporated in international law to make the world responsible to intervene in these kinds of situations in what is otherwise thought of as internal issues. I thought it just made politicians even more reluctant to talk of "genocide" when they don't want to get involved (see sudan). Look, its ok to admit that European countries don't like a madman controlling a country in Europe's soft underbelly. And that things would go smoother if a major source of oil for Europe was under much more friendly control. I just wish that wouldn't mean us spending billions of dollars (yet again). How's all that bailout money we sent to you all through AIG working out for you? Care to share anything so that we can get some health care as well?
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Mar 22, 2011 16:47
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Brown Moses posted:americanmilitary.txt Haha Americans. Wounding locals even on rescue missions in mostly secure territory. I'm surprised they didn't just land the Blackhawk right on top of the guys house to soften the landing. Why would they even strafe the ground, according the earlier article?
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Mar 22, 2011 16:48
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Are you kidding me? He gets to play the great Russian patriot in front of his own people while his lapdog quietly acquiesces to world opinion. It's a win-win situation for him. It also lets them pretend that Medvedev isn't completely under Putin's control. You'd think that Russia would be fine with the NFZ keeping the fighting going, which keeps the price of oil high.
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Mar 22, 2011 16:48
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el samayo grande posted:It also lets them pretend that Medvedev isn't completely under Putin's control. I'm pretty sure Russia doesn't give a gently caress about any of this and is just covering it's bases.
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Mar 22, 2011 16:49
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The Yugoslav Wars were much closer to WW3 scenarios because there was a danger that Russia could have gotten real mad on behalf of its Serbian allies instead of bowing out, but in reality it wasn't really that close and the Russian military at the time was such a mess (and still is, to a lesser but still major extent) that it's ability to wage war was almost nil, and no one's going to fire nukes over Banja loving Luka. And China isn't stupid. It's determined to be an economic hegemon, not a military one.
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Mar 22, 2011 16:49
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ODC posted:I know this might sound a bit reactionary to the situation, but does anyone else see this as a possible WW3 scenario? Maybe should something truly inciting happen (like Israeli jets bombing Iranian nuclear enrichment facilities)...but as for now no.
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Mar 22, 2011 16:50
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ODC posted:I know this might sound a bit reactionary to the situation, but does anyone else see this as a possible WW3 scenario? Stop watching Glenn Beck immediately.
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Mar 22, 2011 16:51
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ODC posted:I know this might sound a bit reactionary to the situation, but does anyone else see this as a possible WW3 scenario? VERY unlikely. But as we are seeing in the last few months, unlikely things are happening every day.
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Mar 22, 2011 16:52
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Slantedfloors posted:Don't be dumb. Being a giraffe I find your attitude a tad offending.
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Mar 22, 2011 16:56
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killing_fields posted:Haha Americans. Wounding locals even on rescue missions in mostly secure territory. I'm surprised they didn't just land the Blackhawk right on top of the guys house to soften the landing. Why would they even strafe the ground, according the earlier article? To tell the impossible to identify persons, probably with AKs, to get the gently caress back? But actually shooting at people versus warning shots was an obvious mistake of enormous magnitude.
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Mar 22, 2011 16:57
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Darth123123 posted:To tell the impossible to identify persons, probably with AKs, to get the gently caress back? But actually shooting at people versus warning shots was an obvious mistake of enormous magnitude. I don't think many of the rebels have many AKs, do you have other support for that? In the video they take of the downed jet, none of the men there even have weapons at all.
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Mar 22, 2011 16:58
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Baddog posted:I thought it just made politicians even more reluctant to talk of "genocide" when they don't want to get involved (see sudan). Kissinger would be aghast at such sloppy geopolitical calculations.
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Mar 22, 2011 16:59
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Slantedfloors posted:Don't be dumb. The path is clear, we must implement a NFZ to liberate the oppressed birds.
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Mar 22, 2011 17:00
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Slantedfloors posted:Don't be dumb. Not as unlikely as you might think Sir. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCRgS9vI6Ak#t=58
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Mar 22, 2011 17:05
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kw0134 posted:a stable, known quantity largely aligned with our economic interests mmm hmmmm
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Mar 22, 2011 17:05
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killing_fields posted:I don't think many of the rebels have many AKs, do you have other support for that? In the video they take of the downed jet, none of the men there even have weapons at all. I'm not military expert, but really? What would be the most likely small arms they use? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8364485/Libya-a-peasants-revolt-with-AK-47s.html And the video is most likely not at the same time, and at some distance away from where the pilot rescue occured. They ejected at high altitude.
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Mar 22, 2011 17:08
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ODC posted:I know this might sound a bit reactionary to the situation, but does anyone else see this as a possible WW3 scenario? Middle East: These leaders have no-one on their side, at the worst every one of these countries would be replaced by a junta and the world keeps turning Russia: Putin says the popular anti-western thing for more points from his people while Medvedev holds the official stance the country needs to maintain to keep up the international points China: Why does everyone think that China is a threat to anyone? Their economy is entirely dependent upon the West, any conflict scenario and the West will stop purchasing from them and China will see mass starvation and internal collapse within months. Anyone can make the cheap poo poo they do, but only the West is buying it.
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Mar 22, 2011 17:10
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killing_fields posted:I don't think many of the rebels have many AKs, do you have other support for that? In the video they take of the downed jet, none of the men there even have weapons at all. Yes there are AK variants in wide use in Libya. Remember, they've bought a lot of weapons from the Soviet bloc during the years. They also have FN FAL assault rifles. You can't tell rebels and loyalists apart just by the weapons carried, because arms depots have been raided, forces have changed sides, and equipment is being seized all the time. The images you saw were of curious onlookers. It's likely that rebel fighters were in the area to secure the pilots. But when the rescue choppers come, they have a hard time telling friend from foe, so the strafing is done to get everybody to keep out. I think more people may have been injured by the rebels' happy shooting and blue-on-blue shooting than were injured by the US rescue - but it would be good if the US pilots could tell the rescuers that they're with friendlies so no need to shoot. Vir fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Mar 22, 2011 |
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Mar 22, 2011 17:14
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Baddog posted:mmm hmmmm
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Mar 22, 2011 17:14
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The only strategic allies and interests of the West that China can really threaten are Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, India, and Afghanistan. Of those, the first four would at the very least bloody China's nose real good in a straight-up slugfest on their own; and for the last one, they can have it. Please, China, take it! But it's a moot point since it would go completely against their interests to do any of that.
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Mar 22, 2011 17:15
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kw0134 posted:Are you saying Qadaffi wasn't happy to sell us all the oil we wanted at standard market rates, and that him reasserting control wouldn't have brought production online faster than said office-chair rebels? Because as far as I can tell, you have nothing to rebut with and are grasping for straws here Gadaffi is far from a stable guy and has sponsored people to kill Americans for the greater part of his reign. The only reason he sold oil at market price is because OPEC told him to, and because if he didn't he wouldn't make any money to fill his non-Swiss bank accounts with.
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Mar 22, 2011 17:16
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Competition posted:China: Why does everyone think that China is a threat to anyone? Their economy is entirely dependent upon the West, any conflict scenario and the West will stop purchasing from them and China will see mass starvation and internal collapse within months. Anyone can make the cheap poo poo they do, but only the West is buying it. Wouldn't the West's economy go belly up in turn if the Chinese import market suddenly closed?
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Mar 22, 2011 17:17
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Pureauthor posted:Wouldn't the West's economy go belly up in turn if the Chinese import market suddenly closed? Sure, but China's would go faster, and the West can feed itself. Therein lies the problem, the two are hugely interconnected. War just isn't feasible.
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Mar 22, 2011 17:19
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Really, if anyone had an interest in Libya's oil it would be Italy, and they've pretty much pussed out since the beginning.
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Mar 22, 2011 17:20
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He's done nothing to stop said flow of oil, grudgingly or not, and that he's had no indications whatsoever of changing course (being that, you know, he likes his oil revenue). If it was only about oil in our friend's completely simplistic view of things, why mess with something that's been well enough for a while? Secondly, Qadaffi as recently as 2008 was held up as an example of a "reformed" Arab leader who can be a "partner" with the West. He went in and slammed a bunch of Al Qaida training camps within Libya, as an example. If our only intentions in the international politics world is purely about our strategic needs, we should have been screaming AL QAIDA AL QAIDA until Bengzhali was a crater and then promptly forgot the whole mess. In any event, gambling that we get a more favorable government while we can deal with the truculent one we know of is simply bad strategic sense, if we're going by Baddog's particularly simplistic analysis.
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Mar 22, 2011 17:25
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Pureauthor posted:Wouldn't the West's economy go belly up in turn if the Chinese import market suddenly closed? It wouldn't have to be a sudden thing, it would be a difficult early couple of months establishing the new manufacturing bases but following that period things would carry on as normal (things might be slightly more expensive). Hell part of this could be mitigated by bringing many of the jobs back to the West, some of this stuff is made over here just not in the same numbers, but within a week or two you could double your workforce and have the factories going 24/7 instead of just during the day. Derailment: This is why I'm in favour of a fairtrade tax, have a list of ten essential workers rights and for every one which a country doesn't have gets them a 10% tax increase on products from their country. poo poo gets a little bit more expensive here but it retains jobs and builds sustainable economies around the world.
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Mar 22, 2011 17:27
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kw0134 posted:In any event, gambling that we get a more favorable government while we can deal with the truculent one we know of is simply bad strategic sense, if we're going by Baddog's particularly simplistic analysis. While I think your point has merit (and I don't think oil played a huge role in the decision-making process), the problem is we don't know anything about what that government will look like. There's not a whole lot of political rhetoric coming from the rebels and what's there is disorganized and sporadic, much like the organization of the rebels themselves. We don't even know if we can achieve what you're saying we can achieve. There's just so many question marks, and I feel like the last time we went into a conflict with this many question marks, without visualizing the endgame, we ended up with Iraq. HeroOfTheRevolution fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Mar 22, 2011 |
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Mar 22, 2011 17:28
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:The problem is we don't know anything about what that government will look like. There's not a whole lot of political rhetoric coming from the rebels and what's there is disorganized and sporadic, much like the organization of the rebels themselves. We don't even know if we can achieve what you're saying we can achieve. There's just so many question marks, and I feel like the last time we went into a conflict with this many question marks, without knowledge of the endgame, we ended up with Iraq. The logical answer is that against strict rational sense, we let our ideals sway the decision, and we're going in because we feel it's the "right thing" to do. It may in time be a stupid decision, it may even turn out to have that cynical lining (of that I have no doubt), but it cannot be discounted that at some level there's an altruistic element in ramming the resolution through the UN.
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Mar 22, 2011 17:37
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quote:The US joint task force commander, Admiral Samuel Locklear, somewhere in the Mediterranean is taking questions from reporters. In opening remarks, he said despite current coalition successes, Libyan forces are not yet in compliance with UN security council resolution 1973 because of continued Libyan government actions against civilians. quote:Locklear says he is aware that Gaddafi forces are attacking civilians in Misrata in contravention of the UN security council and that the coalition is "considering all options". It sounds like there have been no coalition attacks yet against those Gaddafi forces. quote:Locklear says the coalition is keeping a close eye on Gaddafi's 32nd brigade, considered his best troops. Most of them have been deployed close to Tripoli. He says the coalition won't have much trouble with Gaddafi's ageing air force. quote:Locklear says he expects Qatar planes to be up and flying by the weekend (See 1.15pm). Qatar is the first Arab League country to take part in operations in Libya. I really hope this is a sign that Misrata will get some help soon.
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Mar 22, 2011 17:37
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