Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

It's just come up on the BBC Twitter feed that the pro-Gaddafi forces have moved into Misarata port, and its been previously reported there's a hospital ship their from Germany providing medical aid.

There's also reports that military installations were hit last night in Sabha, in the south of the country. That's where it's believed a lot of mercenaries are arriving by plane. It's also believed that reinforcements had been heading from there to Misrata and Zintan.

I've also read that coalition aircraft can fly lower now most of the AA defenses are destroyed, so they can target and hit tanks and other vehicles more accurately.

In addition to the reports of airstrikes during daylight hours in Ajdabiya, I'm also seeing some Tweets about coalition aircraft flying around Zintan. This would suggest coalition aircraft feel safer flying during the day, and would support the other reports of AA defenses being destroyed or disabled across Libya.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 11:52 on Mar 24, 2011

# ? Mar 24, 2011 11:27

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 15:15

cioxx: Jul 14, 2001

Here's a curated list of Twitter personalities I'm working on. Some of them from Brown Moses suggestions throughout the thread.

http://twitter.com/revolister/libya

If any of you have suggestions, let me know and I'll update it.

My timeline has too much noise in it. I decided to compartmentalize it into regions/nations to make it easier to glance at information. I just can't keep up during the day with all the stuff that's going down.

# ? Mar 24, 2011 11:56

Vir: Dec 14, 2007; Does it tickle when your Body Thetans flap their wings, eh Beatrice?

French minister of defense hinting at ground forces.

So the situation now is that NATO is in charge in the naval blockade, while the US is in charge of the no-fly-zone and ground strikes?

Sri.Theo posted:

Er, a point by point refutation? She makes a perfectly valid argument - that if we weren't selling weapons to Libya, Egypt, Bahrain, and Saudi Arabia then it would be a lot harder for them to oppress their citizens in the first place.

Depends what you mean by "we". When people were saying "we" armed Iraq, his weapons actually were mostly from Russia/Soviet Union and France. Libya's weapons are mostly Eastern Bloc in origin, with some French and Belgian. Some of the weapons have also been not bought on the open market, but illegally smuggled.

There is half a valid point to be made that selling arms to these autocracies has given them weapons to use against "us", but ANY sort of trade would do it too, because they could
a) Buy weapons from other countries
b) Smuggle the weapons in illegally
c) Make the weapons themselves
Also this only applies to advanced stuff like anti-air missiles. It doesn't really apply to simple things like canons, assault rifles and handguns. It's incredibly easy to make some lovely AK knock-off with access to machine tools and some days of skilled work. It's not high tech. A child laborer can make one or two pistols in a day.

Also, on the flip side of that argument stands the Egyptian and Turkish armies. After Camp David, the Egyptian army has had a close relationship with the United States military, through training, and stuff like how Egypt makes US-designed tanks for themselves. The Egyptian military ultimately chose to side with the people rather than massacring them. Who knows what would have happened if the Egyptian military had not had a relationship to the US?

# ? Mar 24, 2011 12:02

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Zawiyah

quote:

BBC Maya in Manchester, UK, writes: "My husband is from Zawiya and we have received reports that all able-bodied men are being arrested as Gaddafi's troops go door-to-door. We do not know if his family have food but considering that the city has been closed off for weeks I can't imagine what they would have left to eat. There are also reports of women being raped and mobile communication is non-existent. The hospital has also been taken over by the army. We want to raise awareness of just how bad it is inside Libya. Imagine what the terminally ill, the women in labour and those who need life-saving treatement are doing! Personally, if the UN agreement allows for ground troops to enter without the risk of occupancy then I ask the UN to please put this into effect immediately."

# ? Mar 24, 2011 12:26

Stroh M.D.: Mar 19, 2011; The eyes can mislead, a smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth.

evilweasel posted:

Posting about politics on facebook is about the least classy thing you can do ever, regardless of what politics you post about.

Heh, I've been my Facebook networks go-to guy for information about current events since Fukushima. Once I realised I was hours if not days ahead of local media, largely thanks to this fine forum, I felt the need to share.

The response has been overwhelmingly positive so far.

I'm almost a bit sad that I will be out of the loop until Sunday since I'm heading to Norway on a ski trip. StrohBC news will experience some downtime.

But then again, I've been sticking to reporting in an objective fashion. And I've got intelligent friends.

Stroh M.D. fucked around with this message at 12:50 on Mar 24, 2011

# ? Mar 24, 2011 12:42

HJE-Cobra: Jul 15, 2007; Bear Witness; Hell Gem

Well, there's an announcement on the US Embassy website about the large demonstration happening Friday here in Bahrain. It'll be at 4PM, despite the ban on demonstrations right now. Apparently it'll take place in a few different spots, already in the red zones on the map.

Also, they updated that map of places we are supposed to avoid!

http://bahrain.usembassy.gov/demonstration/demonstration-notice-march-26-to-april-2.pdf

So maybe we'll get some more news about what's going on in Bahrain after the demonstrations tomorrow. Hopefully it won't involve large-scale shooting of protestors or anything. I hear that the Crown Prince is supposed to get more involved in the goings-on in Bahrain, maybe there will be serious discussions somewhere?

# ? Mar 24, 2011 12:45

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

I'm certain Friday prayers tomorrow will be pretty big for Yemen, Syria, and Bahrain, even today AFP is reporting a funeral attending by 20,000 people for the people killed yesterday, and fighting in Yemen between different army units.

# ? Mar 24, 2011 12:50

Suntory BOSS: Apr 17, 2006

I was halfway through a post asking why France was so determined in their push for military intervention (to a considerable degree, this is France's war), but came across this article which seems to sum it up. Long story short, Sarkozy needs a boost in the polls.

Sounds pretty skeevy to use military conflict for political advantages, but his main opponent is described as the sort of vehemently anti-immigration demagogue so popular in Europe these days; to be able to prevent a civilian massacre, oust a dictator, and prevent the election of another anti-Muslim European politician is a hat trick of Good Things.

edit; VVV Definitely possible, although Ergodan also seems to have been on some sort of defender-of-Islam kick recently. Who knows?

Suntory BOSS fucked around with this message at 13:11 on Mar 24, 2011

# ? Mar 24, 2011 12:55

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

I get the feeling that some of the opposition from Turkey might be related to France's opposition to Turkey joining the EU as well.

# ? Mar 24, 2011 12:58

Cartouche: Jan 4, 2011

J33uk posted:

Western speaking? I'm torn between imaginging a posse of dudes with Stetsons on or a Roman legion. But seriously, I doubt anyone is sending snatch teams into his palace right now, as fun a rumor as it is.

Spaghetti Western, I'd wager. New Man with No Name movie being filmed?
:clint:

Pissboy Geoff posted:

The different reactions probably have a whole lot to do with who was president. There were mega atrocities going on in Iraq before we invaded there too. They executed like 300,000 people a year in the years running up to the war if I remember reading correctly, not to mention using chemical weapons on their own populace. Bush does military action = bad for Democrats, Obama does military action = bad for Republicans. It is pretty much a no-brainer.

Here's the difference for me:
The only clear thing that Obama has said about this "action" is what the limits are. IE: no boots on ground, and only going to be there for a short while and going to pass over the reins to someone else. Say what you will about Bush's wars, he at least had more concrete/clear objectives.

edit: and congressional approval (whether you believe there were WMDs or not)

Cartouche fucked around with this message at 13:36 on Mar 24, 2011

# ? Mar 24, 2011 13:27

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

quote:

AJE The US Naval Institute has released his handy map showing the location and nationality of the international forces brought to bear against Gaddafi:

Only registered members can see post attachments!

# ? Mar 24, 2011 13:36

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Zintan

quote:

Guardian The people of Zintan, 90 miles southwest of Tripoli, have begun returning from the caves where they sought refuge from government shelling in the last few days, Reuters reports.

Gaetan Vannay, a reporter for Radio Television Suisse, told the news agency: "The people have started moving back from the caves where they were for three or four days. Life is starting back a little bit. A few shops are open. People are still careful. A lot of men are watching outside the city. It is still a city under military siege. But the mood has changed since Friday."

# ? Mar 24, 2011 13:37

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

cioxx posted:

Here's a curated list of Twitter personalities I'm working on. Some of them from Brown Moses suggestions throughout the thread.

http://twitter.com/revolister/libya

Thanks for this, it's very useful, saves me having to open lots of windows at once.

# ? Mar 24, 2011 13:50

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Very interesting news if true

quote:

alihashem Some Army commanders in Benghazi were arrested for collaboration with Gaddafi's regime. #feb17 #libya

IF they were in cahoots with Gaddafi or not it could be a sign of the Transitional council trying to get their trained forces organized under more aggressive leadership.

Also, possible great news for France when it heads off to sell the Rafale based off it's performance in Libya.

quote:

1259: ABC News are reporting that a French fighter has shot down a Libyan air force jet which was violating the no-fly zone.

Woohoo lets watch those arms sale dollars roll in; suck it Sweden.

farraday fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Mar 24, 2011

# ? Mar 24, 2011 13:58

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

He said the full story should come up on AJA soon, I'm really interested in exactly what happened. It does sound like Benghazi has been trying to root out any Gaddafi supporters after the attack on Benghazi, as they had so much trouble with them during the battle.

# ? Mar 24, 2011 14:04

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Brown Moses posted:

He said the full story should come up on AJA soon, I'm really interested in exactly what happened. It does sound like Benghazi has been trying to root out any Gaddafi supporters after the attack on Benghazi, as they had so much trouble with them during the battle.

They are, but a wide scale internal suppression campaign would be ugly, and likely in full view of the International media. I hope it doesn't head that way.

# ? Mar 24, 2011 14:12

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Someone asked if it endangered Benghazi:

quote:

no not in danger get relaxed, they are behind bars now, except for one senior one who will be with them very soon

It does get worrying when the rebels start rounding people up, sometimes it can suggest a violent and paranoid attitude.

# ? Mar 24, 2011 14:23

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Brown Moses posted:

Someone asked if it endangered Benghazi:

It does get worrying when the rebels start rounding people up, sometimes it can suggest a violent and paranoid attitude.

Goign back to my earlier point I hope this is more about reorganizing the armed forces than trying to crush pro Ghaddaffi sentiment, although I suppose it could be both. The ongoing unwillingness of the defected commanders to move their troops forward has become untenable for the Transitional government. I hope they realize that.

# ? Mar 24, 2011 14:33

PainterofCrap: Oct 17, 2002; hey bebe

Pissboy Geoff posted:

The different reactions probably have a whole lot to do with who was president. There were mega atrocities going on in Iraq before we invaded there too. They executed like 300,000 people a year in the years running up to the war if I remember reading correctly, not to mention using chemical weapons on their own populace. Bush does military action = bad for Democrats, Obama does military action = bad for Republicans. It is pretty much a no-brainer.

Well, the reactions from the opposing party did, anyway. Republicans reacted in the same manner when Clinton authorized airstrikes in Yugoslavia. That was after intense and protracted deliberations by the UN to address what was an obvious ongoing genocide.

Bush decided to invade Iraq. There was no social upheaval, no genocide, no international calls for action, and no 'coalition' but in name; we levelled the infrastructure and continue to occupy the country eight years later.

What's happening now is similar to what was going on in Yugoslavia, but with even more impetus - there is a true regime change going on, one that sprung from the grassroots, and a request for help from the UN. This type of thing is part of the UN's mission.

# ? Mar 24, 2011 14:43

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Tripoli

quote:

BBC A Tripoli resident, unnamed for obvious reasons, tells BBC's Newshour: "I'm not exaggerating if I say tens of thousands of young people are arrested. Look, we cannot even now stay close to each other, three four people, for a couple of minutes talking or chatting, I mean it's very danger[ous].

quote:

ChangeInLibya Tripoli: "No shortages in food but fuel is a problem. Some stations are closed, others only open for a few hours per day

quote:

ChangeInLibya Tripoli: "Families, grandparents & all are staying together nowadays. Either in the safest houses they could find or in farms"

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Mar 24, 2011

# ? Mar 24, 2011 14:49

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

Round-up from the Guardian blog:

quote:

Despite air strikes, Gaddafi's tanks rolled back into Misrata under the cover of darkness and began shelling the area near the main hospital, residents and rebels told Reuters.

Government snipers in the city, Libya's third largest, were undeterred by the bombing raids though and had carried on firing indiscriminately throughout, residents said. A rebel spokesman said the snipers had killed 16 people.

"Government tanks are closing in on Misrata hospital and shelling the area," said a doctor in Misrata who was briefly reached by phone before the line was cut off. It was impossible to independently verify the reports.

quote:

The excellent Colum Lynch at Turtle Bay on the Foreign Policy website points out a little-noticed fact about the UN sanctions against Libya that could come back to haunt the international community.

Like similar sanctions imposed on Iran, the move to cut off Gaddafi's chief sources of revenue has the potential to inflict collateral economic harm on ordinary people. It marks a shift from the UN security council's efforts over the past decade to develop highly targeted sanctions that punish a rogue government's elite while shielding ordinary people from harsh economic pain.

"If a stalemate continues and there is no regime change, these measures will starve the economy," David Cortright, a scholar at the Kroc Institute for International Peace Studies at Notre Dame University and one of the country's leading experts on UN sanctions, told Turtle Bay. "Sooner or later, and probably sooner, Libya will begin to face internal economic difficulties, and therefore, humanitarian difficulties."

quote:

Presidential guards loyal to President Ali Abdullah Saleh clashed in the town of Mukalla with army units backing opposition groups, AP reports.

The confrontation wounded one person. Protesters are planning a "day of departure" rally in the capital, Sana'a, tomorrow after prayers that could bring hundreds of thousands on to the streets. Around 10,000 people gathered this morning, chanting slogans such as "Go, go, you coward; you are an American agent".

The International Crisis Group thinktank says the political tide has turned decisively against President Saleh.

His choices are limited: he can fight his own military or negotiate a rapid and dignified transfer of power. By choosing the latter path now, he has a chance of ensuring an honourable departure and, most importantly, of sparing his country a brutal and bloody civil war.

ICG warns, however, that the most powerful current backers of the protest movement - Ali Mohsen al-Ahmar, Sheikh Sadiq al-Ahmar's brothers and salafi leaders such as Sheikh Abd-al-Majid al-Zindani - are long-time regime insiders and symbols of the status quo.

Over time, Ali Mohsen and the older generation in the president's tribe, the Sanhan, as well as the al-Ahmar brothers, have felt increasingly marginalised by the concentration of power around the president's son and nephews. Today, this rivalry within the Hashid tribal confederation is playing out in the context of the protest movement.

quote:

#BREAKING ABC's Martha Raddatz: #Gadhafi sends up first warplane violating no fly zone -- plane is shot down by French fighter jets. #Libya

And from Reuters:

quote:

"Government tanks are closing in on Misrata hospital and shelling the area," said the doctor, who was briefly reached by telephone before the line died. "The situation is very serious." ... Abdul Basset, another rebel spokesman, said the shelling at Misrata hospital was continuing. "We fear a massacre. There are about 1,000 people in the hospital and most of them are in critical conditions, they can not move or run -- many amputees among them," he said. "There are also ten Filipino nurses who we lost contact with on Friday."

He added the generator supplying electricity to the hospital had been destroyed, which left the facility without power. "We call on the world to help us. God help us, God help us," he said.

# ? Mar 24, 2011 14:59

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

quote:

Latest on that ABC News report about a Libyan air force jet shot down for violating no-fly zone: it was a single-engine Galeb, apparently. Still no confirmation of that report.

I assume it refers to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soko_G-4
There's no mention of them being used in Iran, but they are used in Serbia, where it has been claimed Iran has been hiring mercenary pilots from.

# ? Mar 24, 2011 14:59

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Brown Moses posted:

I assume it refers to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soko_G-4
There's no mention of them being used in Iran, but they are used in Serbia, where it has been claimed Iran has been hiring mercenary pilots from.

It's more likely to be one of these

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soko_G-2_Galeb

Which are part of the Libyan air force.

# ? Mar 24, 2011 15:02

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

Brown Moses posted:

I assume it refers to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soko_G-4
There's no mention of them being used in Iran, but they are used in Serbia, where it has been claimed Iran has been hiring mercenary pilots from.

The Libyan Air Force had at least a hundred G-4s as trainers and light attack aircraft. If CQ is starting to bring those up instead of the Mirages (which I think he only has one left, last I checked) or the MiGs, he's pretty much running on fumes now.

Edit: No, the Libyan Air Force page only lists Soko G-2s. It looks like the G-4s are from somewhere else.

# ? Mar 24, 2011 15:03

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Based on other reports they are probably forcing the pilots into them at gun point.

Misarata

quote:

Our colleague, Mona Mahmood, has been speaking to Muhammed, a rebel spokesman, in Misrata. This is what he told her.

quote:
Misrata is in a miserable situation, people can hardly go out for their basic needs because of the snipers on top of the main hospital, University Hospital, which has tanks surrounding it. The hospital is empty of patients but has become a base for government forces.

I helped in evacuating 19 bodies and more than 100 wounded. The rebels moved to the other hospital in the city which is 1.5km from the vegetable market after the main hospital was taken by Gaddafi forces. There are some tanks stuck in this covered market. If they come out, they come under rebel fire and if they try to flee, the crews will be killed by the people.

The 10-floor hospital is full of wounded, but their families are scared to visit because of the shooting and there is an acute shortage of medical supplies. There is a a clinic for new born babies called al-Saeed clinic. It was hit by tank fire and we do not know what happened to the babies there.

There is no fighting between the rebels and Gaddafi forces, but snipers are not giving a chance for any one to move and the tanks are shooting at random.

My 14-year-old son, Hassan, was shot in the leg, which had to be amputated because there is no proper medical treatment. Power comes and goes in the centre of the city but there is no power at all in the outskirts. we depend on generators. Still, getting fuel is not that easy, so we have to use it carefully. Mobiles and landlines are dead only Skype is working and this is how we chat to each other and transmit news between different cities in Libya.

Water is a real problem in Libya before the war but now it is worse cause the main city that supplied Misrata with water, Sekket, is controlled by Gaddafi forces. Misrata is well-known for being a commercial city but with no more food coming to the city, we do not know what will happen. People are trying to share their food now.

# ? Mar 24, 2011 15:10

Narmi: Feb 26, 2008

Young Freud posted:

The Libyan Air Force had at least a hundred G-4s as trainers and light attack aircraft. If CQ is starting to bring those up instead of the Mirages (which I think he only has one left, last I checked) or the MiGs, he's pretty much running on fumes now.

Edit: No, the Libyan Air Force page only lists Soko G-2s. It looks like the G-4s are from somewhere else.

Didn't the US or UK say yesterday or the day before that Gaddafi's air force had lost its capability to wage war? I guess if they're relying on older aircraft, that kinda proves it.

Also, in regards to trying to root out Gaddafi sympathizers,

quote:

11:28am

Reuters photographer Goran Tomasevic snapped this photograph on Monday. It shows a rebel gunman at a checkpoint aiming his AK-47 at a man protecting another man who the fighter believes is a Gaddafi sympathizer, and shows how fluid the situation in Libya can be:

# ? Mar 24, 2011 15:11

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

There's a bit more on that in the Telegraph as well.

quote:

"They were beaten on their feet and the woman was slapped around the face until she admitted planning an attack on the mosque," said Basim Mohamed, muezzin at Quiche mosque.

Inside the car they say they found an AK-47 and 10 cartridges of ammunition.

A frenzied mob formed outside the mosque as word spread that Gaddafi assassins had been cornered. It only dispersed when rebel gunmen arrived to take away the suspects to an uncertain fate.

It wasn't supposed to be like this in free Benghazi. After throwing off the shackles of Gaddafi's brutal rule, Libya's young opposition movement is rounding up suspected opponents and delivering its own brutal form of justice in a city living in fear that they have been penetrated by a fifth column of government loyalists.

Rebel leaders admit that dozens of Gaddafi supporters have been arrested or killed.

Every night, gangs of vigilantes assemble at makeshift roadblocks � made from piles of rubble, oil drums or piping � to control entry and exit from their neighbourhoods.

On Sunday, gunfights echoed around the city as gangs sought to mop up pro-Gaddafi elements after government troops had been fought back a day earlier.

Foreign workers fled the city long ago in fear of being mistaken for a government-hired mercenary.

Many residents are now too frightened to drive through the dark streets at night, fearing a shakedown or worse at the proliferating checkpoints.

"If they don't know who you are, and are in their part of town, and you have a nice car, then they are going to think you are a car thief or they say you are with Gaddafi," said one driver who now stays close to home after dark.

"Maybe you hesitate or seem nervous and they will think you have something to hide.

"Not all of them are good people."

The rebel's interim government is made up of professionals academics, businessmen and lawyers often educated in the UK or US who make all the right noises about democracy, human rights and the rule of law.

But they are far removed from the excitable volunteers who man roadblocks through the night, stopping cars they believe may have been stolen or dragging suspected Gaddafi loyalists into the street.

Mustafa Gerhiani, the urbane spokesman for the rebels' provisional government in the east, said there were several hundred government supporters in the city who had formed sleeper cells.

"We know where they live and many have been rounded up. There are people looking for them. A lot have been caught and killed," he said.

However, he added that some had been detained for their own protection and that the revolutionary council did not condone mob justice.

"But if they start shooting what can you do?"

# ? Mar 24, 2011 15:14

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

You can start taking control of your city, god drat.

You can not be in charge without having control, otherwise you're not actually in charge. You'd think some of these people would realize that they don't have a military base so they ned a popular one, and just letting people try and self organize while you claim to be in charge is not the same as creating a popular base.

# ? Mar 24, 2011 15:23

Spiky Ooze: Oct 27, 2005; Bernie Sanders is a friend to my planet (pictured)

click the shit outta^

Cartouche posted:

Say what you will about Bush's wars, he at least had more concrete/clear objectives.

You just said Bush had clear goals in the Middle East without any sense of irony. Amazing.

# ? Mar 24, 2011 15:25

big fat retard: Nov 11, 2003; I AM AN IDIOT WITH A COMPULSIVE NEED TO TROLL EVERY THREAD I SEE!!!! PAY NO ATTENTION TO WHAT I HAVE TO SAY!!!

Spiky Ooze posted:

You just said Bush had clear goals in the Middle East without any sense of irony. Amazing.

Bush did, but he misled the public about them (although he was pretty blunt in speeches he gave to West Point and other less public avenues).

# ? Mar 24, 2011 16:16

Lareous: Feb 19, 2008

THE HORSES rear end posted:

Bush did, but he misled the public about them (although he was pretty blunt in speeches he gave to West Point and other less public avenues).

I'd rather be ambiguous than be clearly wrong, to be honest.

# ? Mar 24, 2011 16:18

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Spiky Ooze posted:

You just said Bush had clear goals in the Middle East without any sense of irony. Amazing.

I'm sure he did (initially). Don Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and others who had been there during the Kuwait war, had been busy planning the toppling of Saddam while resting in R'lyeh for the Clinton years.

Clarity of goal doesn't guarantee that it is sound, however.

# ? Mar 24, 2011 16:19

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

The US goal is pretty clear, it's just not being made explicit for international political reasons.

# ? Mar 24, 2011 16:24

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Some pretty bold claims are being made about Misrata:

quote:

39 tanks invaded #misrata Waldensian morning, 22 were destroyed by revolutionaries using RPGs

quote:

#misrata #libya caller says alhamdulilah about 30 pro #gaddafi snipers have been killed today. Fighting is still going on

Also Zintan

quote:

3 tanks, 2 GRAD vehicles, anti-air missle truck, BMB troop carrier and 4 cruiser carrying AA guns captured

quote:

yesterday was attack but attack was blocked, 120 mercenaries were killed, 15 were captured, and forces were pushed back 35K.

All from @SerajElalem, so who knows how reliable he is.

[edit]Apparently he's involved with Alive in Libya, which was set up in Benghazi with the help of Small World News

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Mar 24, 2011

# ? Mar 24, 2011 16:29

big fat retard: Nov 11, 2003; I AM AN IDIOT WITH A COMPULSIVE NEED TO TROLL EVERY THREAD I SEE!!!! PAY NO ATTENTION TO WHAT I HAVE TO SAY!!!

Lareous posted:

I'd rather be ambiguous than be clearly wrong, to be honest.

It's not really a matter of right or wrong, it's just the reality of foreign policy. With the exception of Jimmy Carter, just about every foreign intervention that the United States has taken part in since Truman left office has been publicly ambiguous for both domestic political reasons and the insanely complex politics of the international world.

Even the most simplistic and straightforward (and thoroughly justified) military actions will undoubtedly go against the interests of some great power or against the narratives of many people.

I think Jimmy Carter's honesty was almost a cautionary fable to other presidents about being unambiguous about foreign policy.

# ? Mar 24, 2011 16:33

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Misarata

quote:

Our colleague Mona Mahmood has managed to contact another resident in Misrata, Ahmed, who describes himself as a political activist. This is what he told her.

The situation is much quieter than yesterday. Snipers are still in Tripoli street in the city but it seems the coalition bombing yesterday helped to stop tank fire. It seems that the snipers in the city lost contact with central command and do not know what to do. People are out today but they are very cautious. Some of the shops are open.

The baby clinic was fired on by tanks and I have seen a video released by the rebels showing injured babies. The city has been under siege for almost a month now, so no food is coming in. We depend on what we have stored since the start of the uprising.

Part of the hospital came under under fire yesterday. The main problem now, is the lack of medical supplies which are running out quickly because of the number of wounded.

Gaddafi's forces were searching houses and took away many men. Some of the houses only had old men. They were given the Libyan green flag and told to keep them. The soldiers said the men would be arrested if they did not find the flags when they returned.

Just a note about the video of injured babies, there were people on Twitter criticising people for posting videos of babies with cleft pallats and other such things as war injuries from Misarata, so it could be related to that.

Benghazi

quote:

Detained government soldiers and suspected mercenaries are kept in a former military prison near Benghazi, now taken over by rebels. Some of the men admit to serving with Gaddafi's forces, but say they had no other choice, but to fire at rebels and civilians during battles for cities in the east of the country:

Abul Majid Mohammed, who served in the Al Fadila Battalion of the army, told Reuters news agency:

quote:
If anybody refused to open fire they would kill them, or burn them alive and on our eyes they killed soldiers who refused to fight.

That would certaintly be backed up by other reports of soldiers that had been killed and bunrt for refusing to follow orders.

# ? Mar 24, 2011 16:35

Baddog: May 12, 2001

evilweasel posted:

The US goal is pretty clear, it's just not being made explicit for international political reasons.

I know the whole horrible precedent about assassination of foreign leaders, but I wish we could just go loving kill him already and get the gently caress out of this mess before it gets any worse.

# ? Mar 24, 2011 16:44

Cartouche: Jan 4, 2011

Nenonen posted:

I'm sure he did (initially). Don Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and others who had been there during the Kuwait war, had been busy planning the toppling of Saddam while resting in R'lyeh for the Clinton years.

Clarity of goal doesn't guarantee that it is sound, however.

Pretty much this. I never said that his goals were sound, but they at least had substance.

Lareous posted:

I'd rather be ambiguous than be clearly wrong, to be honest.

I find that pretty frightening. Your superhuman talent of hindsight amazes me.

Cartouche fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Mar 24, 2011

# ? Mar 24, 2011 16:48

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Details from Reuters about the plane the was destroyed earlier:

quote:

A French warplane fired an air-to-ground missile at a Libyan military plane and destroyed it just after it landed at Misrata air force base, a French armed forces spokesman said on Thursday. "The French patrol carried out an air-to-ground strike with an AASM weapon just after the plane had landed at the Misrata airbase," the spokesman said, adding that the plane, belonging to Muammar Gaddafi's military, had breached the UN-imposed no-fly zone.

# ? Mar 24, 2011 16:59

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 15:15

Lareous: Feb 19, 2008

Cartouche posted:

I find that pretty frightening. Your superhuman talent of hindsight amazes me.

"And you see that CIA report? We should've had more than one disgruntled escapee that claimed Saddam had WMDs."

# ? Mar 24, 2011 17:28

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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