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King Plum the Nth
Oct 16, 2008

Jan 2018: I've been rereading my post history and realized that I can be a moronic bloviating asshole. FWIW, I apologize for most of everything I've ever written on the internet. In future, if I can't say something functional or funny, I won't say anything at all.

Grand Prize Winner posted:

the inevitable HBO miniseries?

You know, I almost hope this doesn't happen. On the one hand: more recognition and money for a cool author. On the other hand they could never do it justice. These are the books that are getting me back into FF and got me over caring what a movie/film adaptation would look like. Nothing, sadly, is unfilmable, but there's so much here that would be lost in translation; there'd be no point.

Just saying. I'm a new Abercrombian. I really wanted to read Rothfess and Martin based on their hype but their reputations are disgusting; I decided if I ever would read their stuff it wouldn't be 'till they finished what they started.

I finally started 'Crombie because he was so enthusiastically recommended by my most trusted reference and becasue the man finished what he started.

I'm only dipping a toe in the thread becasue I don't want to spoil myself. I just fibisged Before They Are Hanged and started The Last Argument of Kings today. This poo poo is amazing. He's got me as deeply invested in the characters as the best of anything I've read. He's got a real way with words too and just deft with his integration of humor.

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IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!

Grand Prize Winner posted:

So who plays the Dogman in the inevitable HBO miniseries? My money's on Steve Buscemi.

Good god why?

Am I really the only person in the world who hates that guy?

onefish
Jan 15, 2004

IRQ posted:

Good god why?

Am I really the only person in the world who hates that guy?

Perfect Buscemi role. He's kind of funny, kind of a good guy, but everyone shits on him and he can't catch a break.

Actually, I guess that makes Forley the Weakest an even better Buscemi role.

(And yeah, I like Buscemi in most of his roles)

RobattoJesus
Aug 13, 2002

Isn't Steve Buscemi short 2 feet and 100lbs to play any of the named men?

I always assumed all the Northmen were basically Scots so I'd probably go with Angus Macfadyen, or even Gerard Butler.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE
I always saw Black Dow as being Northern Irish, personally.

Khatib
Nov 12, 2007

IRQ posted:

Am I really the only person in the world who hates that guy?

Probably. He's a great actor and a pretty great guy.

quote:

In the early 1980s, Buscemi also worked as a firefighter for four years on FDNY Engine 55.[8] After 9/11, Buscemi returned to Engine 55 and worked alongside other firefighters to sift through the rubble from the World Trade Center.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Buscemi

HeroOfTheRevolution
Apr 26, 2008

John Charity Spring posted:

I always saw Black Dow as being Northern Irish, personally.

Accent isn't nearly incomprehensible enough.

IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!

Khatib posted:

Probably. He's a great actor and a pretty great guy.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Buscemi

Well that's pretty cool and yeah he's a good actor I just hate him in everything he's in.

Regardless he's not at all believable as a mass murdering viking like the Dogman or really anyone in Abercrombie's books except maybe Bayaz (because Bayaz is a skeezy rear end in a top hat).

wellwhoopdedooo
Nov 23, 2007

Pound Trooper!

onefish posted:

Perfect Buscemi role. He's kind of funny, kind of a good guy, but everyone shits on him and he can't catch a break.

Actually, I guess that makes Forley the Weakest an even better Buscemi role.

(And yeah, I like Buscemi in most of his roles)

If the Cohen brothers did it, Steve Buscemi would have to play Forley. And it would loving rule. See: No Country for Old Men.

King Plum the Nth
Oct 16, 2008

Jan 2018: I've been rereading my post history and realized that I can be a moronic bloviating asshole. FWIW, I apologize for most of everything I've ever written on the internet. In future, if I can't say something functional or funny, I won't say anything at all.
Buscemi is a pretty good match for Forley's personality/characterization but I just can't imagine the Northmen as anything other than British of some stripe. Then again it could be cool becasue he's supposed to stand out form the others like a sore thumb.

I have an easier time imagining Buscemi as Glotka. For some reason I imagine people of the Union as Americans.

IRQ posted:

Regardless he's not at all believable as a mass murdering viking like the Dogman or really anyone in Abercrombie's books except maybe Bayaz (because Bayaz is a skeezy rear end in a top hat).

Wow I hope nothing happens in the third book that completely and radically alters the character I've been reading about in the first two. Scheming, twisted by long held anger and a touch of vanity, maybe, but a skeezy rear end in a top hat? No, ever since Ballsworthy dropped the picture of Jeff Bridges from Iron Man I can't imagine another actor in the part. Proud, strong, ruthless...possibly tending toward evil depending on your perspective (and I don't fully know his motivation yet). It's actually annoying becasue half the time I'm reading Bayaz I'm imaging Bridges' voice now.

Smoky Bandana
Oct 1, 2009

You can trip on my synthesizer.

IRQ posted:

Regardless he's not at all believable as a mass murdering viking like the Dogman or really anyone in Abercrombie's books except maybe Bayaz (because Bayaz is a skeezy rear end in a top hat).

I'd have Bridges for Bayaz, he looks pretty much exactly as I'd pictured him here. That said, I'd really rather any kind of miniseries didn't come to pass.

RobattoJesus
Aug 13, 2002

King Plum the Nth posted:

I have an easier time imagining Buscemi as Glotka. For some reason I imagine people of the Union as Americans.

I dunno, Glotka used to be a handsome hero-type. It would take a whole lot of torture to turn someone like that into Steve Buscemi.

Also I thought of the Union as British (I'm guessing since they're generic white guys, and I'm British), and in that case I'd suggest Hugh Laurie for Glotka. He's already got the cane experience. Add some horrific scars and remove a few teeth and he's good to go.

Although thinking about it, in my mind Prince Ladisla was Hugh Laurie in Black Adder...

IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!

RobattoJesus posted:

I dunno, Glotka used to be a handsome hero-type. It would take a whole lot of torture to turn someone like that into Steve Buscemi.

Also I thought of the Union as British (I'm guessing since they're generic white guys, and I'm British), and in that case I'd suggest Hugh Laurie for Glotka. He's already got the cane experience. Add some horrific scars and remove a few teeth and he's good to go.

Although thinking about it, in my mind Prince Ladisla was Hugh Laurie in Black Adder...

My take on the geography is that the Union is France and the North is the british isles.

As far as Glokta, Wallace Shawn is too old for it now but would have been great.

wellwhoopdedooo
Nov 23, 2007

Pound Trooper!

IRQ posted:

My take on the geography is that the Union is France and the North is the british isles.

As far as Glokta, Wallace Shawn is too old for it now but would have been great.

To satisfy Hollywood tradition when doing film adaptations, for no reason at all a non-black guy will be made black to make up for the important black character that was cut out (also for no reason). Gentlemen, I present Sand dan Glotka:

[center][/center]

TShields
Mar 30, 2007

We can rule them like gods! ...Angry gods.
I've been an Abercrombie fan since his first book hit shelves. It was on the "New Releases" table at Borders, and I read the first page and knew I had to keep going. Just finished "The Heroes" since our local store didn't get it in on release day. By the time they mailed me a copy, I was already invested in another book.

It was amazing, as usual. I don't think it lacked any of what his other books had. They're all fairly consistently good, so I wasn't disappointed in the least. I REALLY wish I hadn't gotten into him so early on, because now I have to wait a couple years for his next release. I kind of like getting into a series when it's already complete, that way I always know what I'm reading next and don't have to hunt for something new. Oh well.. Guess it could be worse (*cough*ABSOLUTEFUCKER*cough*)

LBJs Jumbo Dick
May 6, 2007
Tacos! Tacos! Tacos!

IRQ posted:

My take on the geography is that the Union is France and the North is the british isles.

As far as Glokta, Wallace Shawn is too old for it now but would have been great.


I always have taken it...Union is England(more Georgian in style,and after having absorbed a few other nations), Northmen are more of a Scottish with a Norse twist culture, Styria are the warring pre-unification Italian city-states... and then you've got that big old crumbling Byzantium analog. And the Gurkish are terribly obvious. But it less geographic, and just more cultural analogs.

Slanderer
May 6, 2007
Is it crazy that I personally hold onto the notion that Whirrun's sword was, in fact, quazi-magical, but was wrong about his death because Bayaz's assistant (name alludes me) interfered, and is all magical and whatnot. It was at least alluded to that he had been around the battle the whole time, so whose to say he wouldn't have acted to intervene in cracknut's death

I mean, it's clear that at the very least, the Maker's swords were simply more durable. But it's hard to figure whether Whirrun lasted as long as he did, shirtlessly swinging around an enormous sword (with some strange proficiency), without "help" from the Father of Swords. That, and the instance where the first cannon is fired, and Whirrun is at the center of it, unharmed.
.

That said, I completely missed the significance of the symbol on the blade that is briefly mentioned (as I haven't read the "first law" trilogy in a good while).

Slanderer fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Apr 7, 2011

TShields
Mar 30, 2007

We can rule them like gods! ...Angry gods.

Slanderer posted:

Is it crazy that I personally hold onto the notion that Whirrun's sword was, in fact, quazi-magical, but was wrong about his death because Bayaz's assistant (name alludes me) interfered, and is all magical and whatnot. It was at least alluded to that he had been around the battle the whole time, so whose to say he wouldn't have acted to intervene in cracknut's death

I mean, it's clear that at the very least, the Maker's swords were simply more durable. But it's hard to figure whether Whirrun lasted as long as he did, shirtlessly swinging around an enormous sword (with some strange proficiency), without "help" from the Father of Swords. That, and the instance where the first cannon is fired, and Whirrun is at the center of it, unharmed.
.

That said, I completely missed the significance of the symbol on the blade that is briefly mentioned (as I haven't read the "first law" trilogy in a good while).

Yoru Sulfur is Bayaz's assistant. My "First Law" books are on loan to someone, but I was trying to remember if he was a cannibal. Weren't there cannibals? If so, when Bayaz was eating the nameless "meat" in front of Calder at the end.. :gonk:

LBJs Jumbo Dick
May 6, 2007
Tacos! Tacos! Tacos!

TShields posted:

Yoru Sulfur is Bayaz's assistant. My "First Law" books are on loan to someone, but I was trying to remember if he was a cannibal. Weren't there cannibals? If so, when Bayaz was eating the nameless "meat" in front of Calder at the end.. :gonk:

I hate replying all in spoilers but...

Sulfur is a cannibal, yes. The mages gain their awesome power from eating people. I'd say the nameless meat was leftovers from the battlefield!

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE
There was definitely a hint of that in that scene, except that Bayaz does not, I am fairly sure, break the second law. He's happy enough to use servants/minions who do (Yoru Sulfur, Shenkt before he split) but he doesn't do it himself - Bayaz' powers seem to have altogether harder limits in terms of endurance and the physical toll they take than those of any Eater.

LBJs Jumbo Dick
May 6, 2007
Tacos! Tacos! Tacos!

John Charity Spring posted:

There was definitely a hint of that in that scene, except that Bayaz does not, I am fairly sure, break the second law. He's happy enough to use servants/minions who do (Yoru Sulfur, Shenkt before he split) but he doesn't do it himself - Bayaz' powers seem to have altogether harder limits in terms of endurance and the physical toll they take than those of any Eater.

Yeah. You're totally correct. I don't know why I was thinking he did...though it was an odd bit of hinting around the nameless meat, wasn't it? It makes me wonder if something has changed, off-screen for Bayaz.

off-topic comment..
We need a Flashman thread. You've got just the name to start one.

Clinton1011
Jul 11, 2007

ganthony posted:

I hate replying all in spoilers but...

Sulfur is a cannibal, yes. The mages gain their awesome power from eating people. I'd say the nameless meat was leftovers from the battlefield!

More specifically Black Dow . See Yoru's comment when Calder asked where the dessert was.

Kneel Before Zog
Jan 16, 2009

by Y Kant Ozma Post
So for those who read both stand-alone novels. Which one reads better?

Silentgoldfish
Nov 5, 2008

Kneel Before Zog posted:

So for those who read both stand-alone novels. Which one reads better?

They're pretty different. Best Served Cold is a serial revenge novel while The Heroes is one battle from many different perspectives. That said I think the Heroes is better written.

Clinton1011
Jul 11, 2007

Kneel Before Zog posted:

So for those who read both stand-alone novels. Which one reads better?

I liked The Heroes more but I gotta admit Best Served Cold has some of the best characters Joe has created yet but I hated Monza with a passion, not that she was poorly written just that she is such I stupid bitch that you can't help but hate her. I guess that just speaks for Joe's ability to create characters.

If you're asking what one to read first read Best Served Cold since it takes place before The Heroes and has some things that you might want to know before going into The Heroes. None of them are required to enjoy The Heroes but if you are going to read both read Best Served Cold first.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Kneel Before Zog posted:

So for those who read both stand-alone novels. Which one reads better?

I would say that Best Served Cold works better as a stand-alone than The Heroes does. Neither one requires that you read the First Law Trilogy but you might miss a lot of the stuff happening in The Heroes if you skip the trilogy, whereas for the most part you'd be unimpeded reading BSC.

TShields
Mar 30, 2007

We can rule them like gods! ...Angry gods.
Joe hasn't written a weak book yet, in my opinion. Some are better than others, but you can't say any of them are bad. Just go in order.

Notahippie
Feb 4, 2003

Kids, it's not cool to have Shane MacGowan teeth

TShields posted:

Yoru Sulfur is Bayaz's assistant. My "First Law" books are on loan to someone, but I was trying to remember if he was a cannibal. Weren't there cannibals? If so, when Bayaz was eating the nameless "meat" in front of Calder at the end.. :gonk:

Specific to that, I may be missing something obvious but I couldn't work out what Yoru's message to Bayaz was in the scene where Bayaz is getting extremely pissy because the lord marshall is going to sue for peace. Sulfur comes up and whispers in Bayaz's ear, and suddenly Bayaz relaxes and says "go for it." What message do you think he passed on? I was looking for strange or unexplained phenomena after that scene, but I never caught it.

Daico
Aug 17, 2006
I'm watching the first episode of Camelot and I'm suddenly struck by how very close Merlin and Bayaz are. I mean, I grant, it's basically the point that Bayaz inverts the trope, but the difference is hardly a nudge away.

Bizob
Dec 18, 2004

Tiger out of nowhere!

Notahippie posted:

Specific to that, I may be missing something obvious but I couldn't work out what Yoru's message to Bayaz was in the scene where Bayaz is getting extremely pissy because the lord marshall is going to sue for peace. Sulfur comes up and whispers in Bayaz's ear, and suddenly Bayaz relaxes and says "go for it." What message do you think he passed on? I was looking for strange or unexplained phenomena after that scene, but I never caught it.

It may have been news that Stranger Come Knocking was ready to switch sides

IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!

Daico posted:

I'm watching the first episode of Camelot and I'm suddenly struck by how very close Merlin and Bayaz are. I mean, I grant, it's basically the point that Bayaz inverts the trope, but the difference is hardly a nudge away.

Eh, Merlin in that is still trying to do what he thinks is best for England or whatever.

Bayaz only breaks the trope in that you don't really know what the hell he's about, for that matter I'm not convinced Abercrombie knows himself. Being secretive, short tempered, manipulative, ruthless, etc and whathaveyou aren't really anything new.

onefish
Jan 15, 2004

IRQ posted:

Eh, Merlin in that is still trying to do what he thinks is best for England or whatever.

Bayaz only breaks the trope in that you don't really know what the hell he's about, for that matter I'm not convinced Abercrombie knows himself. Being secretive, short tempered, manipulative, ruthless, etc and whathaveyou aren't really anything new.

Well, I don't know, it's new-ish. Particularly, the idea that a wizard is fundamentally different than a human, and will not have human interests at heart seemed *relatively* new, or newly employed, with Abercrombie. I have no idea if Merlin in that series has that feel to him as well, but it sounds like not quite. Though "good" wizards aren't usually short-tempered/manipulative/ruthless either.

Mandragora
Sep 14, 2006

Resembles a Pirate Captain

onefish posted:

Well, I don't know, it's new-ish. Particularly, the idea that a wizard is fundamentally different than a human, and will not have human interests at heart seemed *relatively* new, or newly employed, with Abercrombie. I have no idea if Merlin in that series has that feel to him as well, but it sounds like not quite. Though "good" wizards aren't usually short-tempered/manipulative/ruthless either.

I don't know, in Tolkien's books the wizards are straight up angels given human shells to wear during their time in Middle-Earth and under a binding agreement not to utilize the full extent of their heavenly power except in direct conflict with other angelic/demonic beings (with some exceptions made). Gandalf is also the only one who keeps mortal interests at heart throughout the course of the series; Saruman starts out with his heart in the right place but falls prey to pride and thinks he can do better than his maker given the right tools, Radagast becomes more interested in the preservation of nature than in civilization, so on and so forth.

I think that Abercrombie's genius lies in taking the idea of such a wizard to its logical conclusion: accumulating several lifetimes of wisdom and power and believing that this makes him better suited to lead his "people" to prosperity, having enough time to actually plan for this and get the better of his kindred, and seeing the state of the world believing that he can surpass his creators/teachers and do a better job of running things. What we're seeing is practically the story of Saruman told if he had managed to vanquish Gandalf and continue rallying forces, completely dehumanizing the enemy with deep-rooted propaganda, solidifying a power base through cunning politics with the "civilized" folk of the Union and through threats or bribery with the "savages" as need be.

I'm really interested to see where he goes with the Prophet and any books set primarily in the south now. Bayaz has been firmly identified as not evil, but incredibly ruthless, sociopathic and with a burning need to maintain and advance civilization at any price. I can't even begin to guess how the Prophet and company are going to be portrayed; we know they absolutely are religious fanatic cannibals who allow slave trading, but I hope we get to see them either just as bad as Bayaz, or as a viable alternative to his rule. They must have been pretty backed into a corner by Bayaz to turn to breaking the second law on such a regular basis. Following the Middle-Earth subversion from earlier, it would be interesting to see him as a benevolent Gandalf-esque figure who has only pushed his people to acts of evil to protect the greater world from Bayaz's machinations.

Liesmith
Jan 29, 2006

by Y Kant Ozma Post

onefish posted:

Well, I don't know, it's new-ish. Particularly, the idea that a wizard is fundamentally different than a human, and will not have human interests at heart seemed *relatively* new, or newly employed, with Abercrombie. I have no idea if Merlin in that series has that feel to him as well, but it sounds like not quite. Though "good" wizards aren't usually short-tempered/manipulative/ruthless either.

Not only is it not relatively new, it's old as balls. Gandalf is an angel, Merlin is the antichrist

Pistol_Pete
Sep 15, 2007

Oven Wrangler

Silentgoldfish posted:

...The Heroes is one battle from many different perspectives.

When I started reading this and saw just how many characters he was introducing, I nearly gave up there and then. I hate those overlong fantasy novels where you need a goddamn flow chart to keep up with who everyone is. But I persevered and ended up being very impressed by the skill with which Abercrombie handles the frequent changes of perspective in the novel. As the story unfolds, you can always understand what's going on and how the fighting is progressing; at the same time, you develop a interest in each character and what's happening in their own little part of the battlefield. Nice work.

TShields
Mar 30, 2007

We can rule them like gods! ...Angry gods.

Umiapik posted:

When I started reading this and saw just how many characters he was introducing, I nearly gave up there and then. I hate those overlong fantasy novels where you need a goddamn flow chart to keep up with who everyone is. But I persevered and ended up being very impressed by the skill with which Abercrombie handles the frequent changes of perspective in the novel. As the story unfolds, you can always understand what's going on and how the fighting is progressing; at the same time, you develop a interest in each character and what's happening in their own little part of the battlefield. Nice work.

His shifting viewpoints are one of the highlights of his books because he does them so loving well. I loved the battles in this book where it would frantically change from one side to the other and you'd see the same microcosm of action from different eyes every time.

DFu4ever
Oct 4, 2002

Kneel Before Zog posted:

So for those who read both stand-alone novels. Which one reads better?

You know, it might be best to clarify how stand-alone the two books are. They are only stand-alone in the sense that they aren't part of a trilogy story like the first three books (which really were just a prologue to the larger story he is developing). They are very much books 4 and 5 of the larger story, though, and should be read in that order.

I have never understood how people can jump around a series that is being told in order. It never pays off for the reader to do that.

EDIT: He honestly should just start having the books labeled as part of an ongoing series.

HeroOfTheRevolution
Apr 26, 2008

Best Served Cold is stylistically a lot like The First Law, but condensed down to a single volume. The Heroes is shorter than any of the other books and reads differently, but he does a great job with it. It's much more a war novel than the others. I'm about halfway through The Heroes and think they're both about equal in terms of enjoyability.

But yeah, you should read BSC first because one major character is thoroughly developed in it and a more minor but still important one is introduced, plus events from BSC are referenced in The Heroes. In fact, you'd completely spoil BSC (not to mention TFL) if you wanted to read it in the future if you happened to pick up The Heroes first, which kind of sucks since it was on the bestseller list and heavily marketed and might be many people's first introduction to Abercrombie.

Like DFu4ever said, they really should label The Heroes as book 5 of a series or something.

wellwhoopdedooo
Nov 23, 2007

Pound Trooper!
Oh man, I just read the part in LAoK where Logen kills Tul Duru and Crummock's kid (at least I think that's who the boy with the axe was, I stopped at the end of the chapter) and jesus christ that has got to be the saddest loving thing I've ever read.

Now, if my predictive skills are anywhere near right, and they've toggled between nearly predicting stuff down to the paragraph (saw Jezal becoming king from Bayaz's first lecture) to being dead wrong (thought for sure he'd end up marrying Ardee somehow, now I get the feeling she'll end up "with" Glokta in some way although that's got to be wrong, she'll probably just suffer some ignoble death brought on by being too bitter to live) so I'm still hoping I'm wrong, but, Logen just needs to be ostracized, probably agree and decide, "welp, I'm irredeemably evil", probably be forced kill someone he doesn't want to while in his right mind to cement it (Crummock is a likely suspect, possibly Shivers (unlikely, he needs to be re-embittered, in any other series I'd say he needs to forgive Logen, but either way he's unresolved), maybe Dow although I think he's got a different death coming, if it's Dogman I swear to gently caress I'm done reading this goddamn book), and then die fighting the Feared.

If this book wasn't stuffed chock full of some of the best characters I've ever read I would have put it down halfway through the first book, but god drat this motherfucker can get inside a character's head, and I am flat-out addicted. Of course, once he kills all the "good guys" off I'm worried I won't give a poo poo about the story anymore--as bad-rear end as Bayaz is, I'm not reading it for him.

The only thing I haven't seen yet is a viewpoint from a clearly evil or clearly innocent (not to be confused with good) character--a Bethod POV would be nice at some point, or a minor like the dudes Luthar used to gamble with. After three books, he's starting to fall into the "unexpected is expected, everybody sucks" trap, and it's an open question in my mind whether he doesn't write those characters at all because pure greed/hate/idiocy is uninteresting and flat, or because he can't get into their heads. Or, even better but I'm doubtful by this late in the trilogy, getting into someone like Bethod's head would flip things around.

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HeroOfTheRevolution
Apr 26, 2008

From now until the end, things just get realer and realer. Come back and read that post when you're through (and then again when you read BSC and The Heroes, since some of the plot threads are left dangling) and you'll have a laugh.

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