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The rebel attack on Brega seems to have failed again, and they've retreated in disarray. http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/01/rebel-attack-on-brega-ends-in-stalemate/?partner=rss&emc=rss Concerned Citizen fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Apr 2, 2011 |
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Apr 2, 2011 02:33
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Concerned Citizen posted:The rebel attack on Brega seems to have failed again, and they've retreated in disarray. quote:One of the rebels had accidentally shot himself through the torso. "Hey guys check this out!" "What are you doing you idiot??" "Nah it's totally cool, the gun isn't even loa--BLAM"
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Apr 2, 2011 03:21
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Countdown until someone puts up a youtube video of rebels marching around to Yakedy Sax. But, seriously. What's going to happen when the original rush of "YEAH REVOLUTION," dies down and we get caught in a protracted fight? How will the NTC maintain morale? Will the NTC be able to maintain control if things continue to not progress? I wonder to what degree these counterattacks are draining rebel morale, and to what degree NTC legitimacy might be flagging? Not necessarily that people would prefer to have Gadaffi back, but maybe seek to replace the largely civilian group with more militarily focused individuals? It's not been unknown to happen. Not saying any of this is going to happen, but it's something of an alarming turn from the "Gadaffi's done and his forces are going to melt away and the rebels will drive to Tripoli!"
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Apr 2, 2011 03:26
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Nombres posted:But, seriously. What's going to happen when the original rush of "YEAH REVOLUTION," dies down and we get caught in a protracted fight? How will the NTC maintain morale? Will the NTC be able to maintain control if things continue to not progress? NTC has been providing food/water/gas/medicine to the people in the east (obviously with foreign help most notably Turkey). Everything I've read about conditions in the west are a bit more grim. Long lines for everything with massive shortages. I don't know how things will end, but if things get protracted then things are going to get worse quicker for the citizens in the west than the east. Perhaps that will even help the rebel cause with more people revolting in the west simply because they want basic necessities.
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Apr 2, 2011 04:42
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Has anyone heard about what has happened around Az Zawiyah? This seemed to be the first major city that loyalist forces attacked and I havn't heard much about the city sense then.
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Apr 2, 2011 05:24
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The NTC isn't the one providing aid. They don't actually anything to give. However, to their credit they are allowing NGOs to distribute aid and improve conditions on the ground, which Gaddafi is not allowing. The human cost of this civil war is now absolutely disastrous, even with the aid. 400,000 displaced Libyan refugees and an unknown and probably unknowable number are dead. Benghazi is turning into Baghdad circa-2005 with rival death squads gunning down regime supporters or prominent rebels. Static frontlines would be one thing, but this back-and-forth is not a good thing for conditions on the ground. Concerned Citizen fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Apr 2, 2011 |
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Apr 2, 2011 05:25
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karthun posted:Has anyone heard about what has happened around Az Zawiyah? This seemed to be the first major city that loyalist forces attacked and I havn't heard much about the city sense then. Every adult male has been disappeared in Zawiyah. That and Qaddafi tried to pull a Potemkin village with it and got called out by UN.
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Apr 2, 2011 05:41
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Reports of friendly fire.quote:SultanAlQassemi: Al Jazeera: Rebels say a @Nato strike near Ajdabiya killed 13 revolutionaries at least. #Libya
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Apr 2, 2011 05:48
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farraday posted:Reports of friendly fire. This is getting close to being a farce. gently caress what a mess this is going to be.
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Apr 2, 2011 05:57
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Didn't see the posted yet, though it's a few days old.http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/31/world/africa/31casualty.html?src=recg&pagewanted=print posted:GHARYAN, Libya — Standing at the grave of an 18-month-old baby on Wednesday, officials of the Qaddafi government presented the first specific and credible case of a civilian death caused by Western airstrikes.
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Apr 2, 2011 05:59
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If nothing else, from this whole experience I've learned that Twitter feeds are the most unreliable source for information on the internet. Not that I expected any non-major media twitter feeds to that reliable, but I actually don't think a single rumor about a major event that started from Twitter turned out to be true thus far. It's actually been remarkable in its inaccuracy VV Fair enough. I didn't follow the Egyptian events nearly as closely I've followed the Libyan events waffle fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Apr 2, 2011 |
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Apr 2, 2011 06:23
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waffle posted:If nothing else, from this whole experience I've learned that Twitter feeds are the most unreliable source for information on the internet. Not that I expected any non-major media twitter feeds to that reliable, but I actually don't think a single rumor about a major event that started from Twitter turned out to be true thus far. It's actually been remarkable in its inaccuracy There's lots of misinformation, outright propaganda and cheerleading this time around. But it also depends on the region. Libya isn't as connected as Egypt. The information coming out of Egypt was pretty reliable most of the time. It should be treated on a case-by-case basis.
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Apr 2, 2011 06:29
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Young Freud posted:Every adult male has been disappeared in Zawiyah. That and Qaddafi tried to pull a Potemkin village with it and got called out by UN. Ya thats all that I have heard about it too.
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Apr 2, 2011 06:45
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Looks like we sure have a vested interest in this situation beyond minimalizing civillian deaths. I thought this whole thing was going to be limited to humanitarin concerns. 'Hey fledgling new government we just propped up, remember when we did all of that poo poo for you? Remember when you said you needed a no fly zone enforced because warplanes were bombing civillian centres and we did it? Remember when you needed highways and cities cleared of mechanized infantry and artillery and we did that? Remember when you still sucked at fighting so we armed the poo poo out of you and painted targets with secret operatives and provided CIA training to roofers and accountants so you could attain leadership? Well, we need a couple favours'.
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Apr 2, 2011 06:55
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Cicero posted:Wow.  Guns: Not a necessary evil but a potential danger to yourself and others that you don't want to be shot. Act accordingly. As for the story about the unfortunate baby... it obviously sucks, but hopefully the circumstances and the family's version in NYT mitigates whatever propaganda effect Gaddafi's regime can make out of it. I must confess, as a layman I imagine that it would be difficult even with military hardware and techniques to "imagine" this happening (a tank shell "flying" out of the explosion intact enough to be lethal wherever it landed)... but it has, so hopefully future strikes will have accounted for such a possibility.
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Apr 2, 2011 07:02
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Chortles posted:Believe it or not, this is entirely possible considering that if these are former civilians who are (still) not used to having firearms, then they probably don't know the cardinal rules of carrying them -- muzzle discipline, trigger discipline, always assuming it to be loaded, situational awareness -- kind of like in America! I don't want to generalize and say everyone in the Middle East/North Africa has a gun, but they're not exactly rare.
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Apr 2, 2011 07:07
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Darth123123 posted:Oh that's rich. Got a link? I kind of doubt everything the CIA does is successful/good, but they can't be completely moronic. Calling in GPS coordinates can't go wrong. *bombs hospital*  Slantedfloors posted:That's what happens when your agency was founded by trust-funders with no real world experience and is kept alive by people looking for something on their resume before they jump ship to the defense industry. To me, the other explanation for the CIA's competence issues makes more sense (institutional schizophrenia, turf battles between operations and analysis), though to be frank I also believe that the "bleeding" of experienced personnel (which conservatives may blame on the Church Committee, though I wouldn't) and the need to get "operators" in post-9/11 had to do with it in recent years as well. I recall one of the Four Truths of Special Operations being that "SOF cannot be mass-produced quickly." Xandu, while that may be, I'm referring to the rebels here (and of course in particular the "own-goaler"). Celestatiune posted:I have no idea who this other guy is, and I don't necessarily think a standing army is a terrible idea, but Libya *does* have a standing army. It's the one that's the threat to liberty.
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Apr 2, 2011 07:12
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Contraction mapping posted:
No it doesn't guarantee anything, and it certainly doesn't guarantee the success of the NTC, of which we don't know how much sway they actually have over the people on the ground.
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Apr 2, 2011 07:13
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Chortles posted:
I know, I'm just a little surprised they're so incompetent with weapons.
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Apr 2, 2011 07:16
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Jut posted:No it doesn't guarantee anything, and it certainly doesn't guarantee the success of the NTC, of which we don't know how much sway they actually have over the people on the ground. Xandu, I'm not in the least surprised, simply because there doesn't seem to be a public "gun safety" culture in America that doesn't tend to stem from "the gun community" (or of course, law enforcement and military), other than trigger discipline becoming the norm in fictional depictions of law enforcement and military, so I can see many Americans -- or rather, any Western society without such a culture or conscription (to imbue such a culture) -- making similar or identical errors at handling small arms.
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Apr 2, 2011 07:21
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Chortles posted:The uncertainty is part of what keeps me from falling in behind "give Gaddafi asylum if he quits" -- discount the NTC all we want, but what if "the people on the ground" feel the same way as the NTC in wanting Gaddafi to face justice even if it draws out the conflict? Then the war will continue until either one side has won, or it drags on long enough to make them reconsider the exile option. CQ's going nowhere at the moment though.
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Apr 2, 2011 07:27
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Not saying the rebels are the same in Libya as Cote d'Ivoire, but the human rights abuses by Outarra aligned (though not controlled) forces over the past few weeks and especially today are a great example of why the good guys aren't always so good.
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Apr 2, 2011 08:04
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J33uk posted:This is getting close to being a farce. gently caress what a mess this is going to be. quote:Shortly after 3 p.m., General Younes drove in a small entourage out onto the desert plain short of Brega. His troops gathered around him as he drove slowly through the ranks; they walked beside him firing rifles and machine guns in the air. He left the lines, and soon after the rebel attack began, opening with volleys of rockets.
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Apr 2, 2011 08:17
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Xandu posted:Not saying the rebels are the same in Libya as Cote d'Ivoire, but the human rights abuses by Outarra aligned (though not controlled) forces over the past few weeks and especially today are a great example of why the good guys aren't always so good. Black African's were (are still being?) hunted down by rebel groups on suspicion of being mercenaries shortly after the conflict in Libya started.
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Apr 2, 2011 08:18
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CeeJee posted:The attack was impressive for its display of firepower but unimpressive in its coordination. It was unclear if the rebels knew precisely what their targets were or if they were simply lobbing high-explosives toward the town. "Abdul, you've switched off your targetting computer. What's wrong?" "Nothing. I'm all right." *blasts a hospital*
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Apr 2, 2011 08:41
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CeeJee posted:Friendly fire indicates the coalition and rebels being on the same side, they are not. The coalition is there to protect civilians, and if more heavy weapons end up in the hands of the rebels those will be increasingly threatened by them. If the rebels were bombarding a town, then do you think the air strike was on purpose?
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Apr 2, 2011 08:53
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Jut posted:If the rebels were bombarding a town, then do you think the air strike was on purpose? The air strike (if it happened at all, since it was on Twitter odds are it didn't) was not at Brega but reported near Adjabiya. But according to the UN resolution, a rebel unit launching terribly inaccurate rockets at a town held by the government should be attacked.
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Apr 2, 2011 09:20
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This just gets weirder and weirder: http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wo...rike_Near_Brega quote:"Some of Gaddafi's forces sneaked in among the rebels and fired anti-aircraft guns in the air," said rebel fighter Mustafa Ali Omar. And those civilian casualties from earlier ? It was the elusive Free Libyan Air Force all along ! quote:Reports of the deaths come after the Libyan government claimed Western airstrikes at a village nine miles from Brega killed at least 12 civilians and wounded dozens more.
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Apr 2, 2011 11:10
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Someone's having fun writing fanfic on twitter and having it reported in the news.
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Apr 2, 2011 11:16
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It's okay, it does provide melodramatic outbursts from you and others condemning the intervention which is always a laugh.J33uk posted:
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Apr 2, 2011 13:26
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Lascivious Sloth posted:It's okay, it does provide melodramatic outbursts from you and others condemning the intervention which is always a laugh. I'm not condemning the intervention, but the situation on the ground is getting increasingly ugly. Anyone remember "days, not weeks"?
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Apr 2, 2011 13:30
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No because no one said this would take days. It was always looking to be a drawn out revolt or civil war. It would have been days though if the UN didn't intervene.
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Apr 2, 2011 13:47
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Lascivious Sloth posted:No because no one said this would take days. It was always looking to be a drawn out revolt or civil war. It would have been days though if the UN didn't intervene. Don't be an rear end, the time scale for this being over has varied from "next week" to "ages".
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Apr 2, 2011 13:59
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I still don't really grasp the optimism some of you have in overthrowing the Gaddafi regime. What will probably happen is that a new dictatorship that undermines rights and civil liberties will be installed but instead it will be a puppet western government in the place of Gaddafi. Gaddafi has always been mostly anti-US and anti-west so no wonder our government decided to choose Libya as a place of intervention versus some of the other middle-eastern dictatorships. Being how corrupt and amoral the west is, as clearly unveiled by Wikileaks and other related government documents, means that any gains by Western countries, especially the United States, is a blow against humanity. I truly feel the country that really needs a revolution on the scale and severity of Libya or Egypt is the United States. How come we Americans are not attempting to overthrow our government when it is revealed to be so corrupt and amoral?
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Apr 2, 2011 14:22
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ZetaReticuli49er posted:I still don't really grasp the optimism some of you have in overthrowing the Gaddafi regime. What will probably happen is that a new dictatorship that undermines rights and civil liberties will be installed but instead it will be a puppet western government in the place of Gaddafi. Gaddafi has always been mostly anti-US and anti-west so no wonder our government decided to choose Libya as a place of intervention versus some of the other middle-eastern dictatorships. Being how corrupt and amoral the west is, as clearly unveiled by Wikileaks and other related government documents, means that any gains by Western countries, especially the United States, is a blow against humanity. because the united states government has not resorted to using force upon its citizens, and that you can throw the fucks out every 4 years. Next comes the argument that they are all the same and all that bad, stop being so  and go vote for a 3rd party if enough people do it the third party wins and the mainline opposition party of the loser will be happy to see their political foe thrown out. (If a republican loses to a third party democrats will be drat sure to see him out. same goes for a democrat losing to a third party and republicans making sure he is gone.). The people legitimately believe that they do have a choice in the matter of who runs the country and as long as that faith remains they will continue to try to work with the already existing system to achieve their goals rather than trying to destroy the system. So why aren't americans overthrowing the government? because they don't think things are that bad and it is their opinion that matters as a collective not your minority opinion.
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Apr 2, 2011 14:44
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ZetaReticuli49er posted:I truly feel the country that really needs a revolution on the scale and severity of Libya or Egypt is the United States. How come we Americans are not attempting to overthrow our government when it is revealed to be so corrupt and amoral? ZetaReticuli49er posted:I still don't really grasp the optimism some of you have in overthrowing the Gaddafi regime.  Because the world is a big place. We do not get to rearrange it to to be less corrupt or to force morals on it. We all have just a tiny piece of influence, so when enough like minded people all push in the same direction big things can happen. Keep pushing.
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Apr 2, 2011 14:50
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ZetaReticuli49er posted:
Apparently, having any sort of diplomatic relationship, or agreeing on even a single policy, makes you each other's "puppet" in retard-speak. Given your custom "LET ME TELL YOU 'BOUT THEM BLACKS" title, I take it your desire to overthrow the US constitution has nothing to do with you having a dark skinned president? Vir fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Apr 2, 2011 |
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Apr 2, 2011 14:52
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puppet western government
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While it's not a confirmation of the twitters about an army battalion turning on Bab Al-Azizya, it looks like something went down last night in Tripoli. According to Al Jazeera, Libyan state television claims "military and civilian areas east and south-west of the capital Tripoli came under fire, by what it calls western assailants, crusaders and colonialists".
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Apr 2, 2011 15:23
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Jut posted:No it doesn't guarantee anything, and it certainly doesn't guarantee the success of the NTC, of which we don't know how much sway they actually have over the people on the ground. Well now let's see here, 100% of coalition attacks thus far have been against the forces of the Gadaffi, while 0% of coalition attacks have been against the forces of the NTC, and this is not expected to change in the near-future. Also, Gadaffi controlled areas of Libya are under an embargo while NTC controlled areas are not only embargo-free and receiving international aid, but may wind up receiving military aid in the near future. Given that one side of this conflict is being starved of supplies and receiving unrelenting potshots from some of the worlds most powerful military forces, while the other side is suffering from neither, would you care to explain to the class how the UNSCR which produced these game-changing differences does not 'guarantee' the success of the NTC?  (Saying the NTC has questionable support on the ground and would fall apart after Gadaffi is gone would be a fair concern, if not for the fact that all but one of Libya's tribes have thrown their support behind the NTC) Edit: I speak the English good. Contraction mapping fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Apr 2, 2011 |
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Apr 2, 2011 15:50
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Lascivious Sloth posted:No because no one said this would take days. It was always looking to be a drawn out revolt or civil war. It would have been days though if the UN didn't intervene. ahem. quote:In his meeting with Members of Congress today, sources tell ABC News, President Obama said he expected that the period that the US would be involved in heavy kinetic activity would be "days, not weeks," after which he said the US would then take more of a supporting role. (March 18)
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Apr 2, 2011 15:58
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