Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

The latest from the Guardian. Loooong update as there's tons of stuff happening today:

quote:

There was a "warm-up" protest on Thursday in Douma for planned larger demonstrations today, the New York Times reports:

A midday march in the centre of Douma drew about 2,000 people, said Wissam Tarif, a human rights activist who was in the town on Thursday. Several thousand more came to pay their respects to the families of those killed, including a delegation of several hundred students from Damascus University. Mr Tarif said many of those in Douma appeared to have come from outside the city.

Ammar Abdulhamid, a Syrian novelist and opposition figure who now lives in Maryland and has helped young activists in Syria to organize, said that security forces had largely withdrawn from the towns where the largest protests had taken place. Inside the security cordon that now surrounds Dara'a, where Syria's popular protests first began three weeks ago, the town itself has become "semiautonomous," he said.

Dara'a, Baniyas and several Damascus suburbs are effectively under the control of the residents, Mr Abdulhamid said. "We used to call them the poverty belt, and now we call them the revolution belt," he said of the towns surrounding Damascus, the capital.

quote:

Four foreign journalists are still missing four days after being snatched in the frontline Libyan town of Brega, Chris McGreal reports from Benghazi.

The four, including James Foley from the Global Post, were taken at gunpoint by Gaddafi's forces who emerged from the desert earlier this week. Chris says:

In terms of the tactics of actually snatching them, it is a bit of a first. This is unusual in terms of taking reporters, however Gaddafi's forces have been using these tactics against the rebels. The question now is what has happened to them and where they are. It has been four days. Previously when reporters have been arrested by Gaddafi's forces it took three or four days for them to pop up in Tripoli. It is those three or four days that are crucial."

On claims that a Nato air strike yesterday killed a number of rebels, Chris says:

"The rebels on the ground said it was an air strike that hit tanks that had been deployed to the frontline for the first time. These are tanks that were seized from Gaddafi so from the air they would have been indistinguishable. Communications have been quite bad between the rebels on the ground and Nato, so it was quite possible that the pilot was unaware that the rebels had tanks or that they had moved them to the frontline. The rebel leadership tried to claim this was a result of an attack by Gaddafi's airforce. That seemed unlikely partly because of the no-fly zone ...

The mood here is quite anti-Nato at the moment. After yesterday's strike it is not merely seen as an accident by many people. Some people are starting to see some kind of conspiracy. The rebel leadership is quite concerned at the idea that Nato becomes isolated and criticised, because they are relying on it very heavily."

quote:

Around 3,000 Egyptians are protesting in Cairo's Tahrir Square on the "Friday of cleansing" reports AP:

About 3,000 Egyptians are protesting in Cairo's central Tahrir Square holding banners and signs demanding prosecution of ousted president Hosni Mubarak and his regime.
One speaker in the square has vowed, "We are not leaving here until Mubarak is on trial," as the crowd chants, "The people want to try the deposed president."

Activists have called for a large gathering Friday to push for prosecutions of key members of the former regime, including Mubarak and his family, who are now under house arrest at a presidential palace in the Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh.

quote:

Dexter Filkins, in the New Yorker, has written an extensive account of the protests in Yemen and fears that anarchy will reign if President Saleh is deposed:

As officials in both Washington and Sanaa repeatedly reminded me, Yemen is not Egypt: it has virtually no middle class, a weak civil society, a marginal intelligentsia, and no public institutions that operate independently of Saleh. The Yemeni opposition includes notable Islamists, among them Abdul Majeed al-Zindani, a cleric whom the U.S. has designated a terrorist.

A Western diplomat in Yemen said, "O.K., fine, Saleh goes. Then what do you do? There is no institutional capacity�in the bureaucracy, in the military, or in any other institutions in this society�to really step in and pick up the pieces and manage a transition." A failed state in Yemen, coupled with an already anarchic situation in Somalia, could provide Islamist militants with hundreds of miles of unguarded coastline, disrupting the shipping lanes that run from the Suez Canal to the Indian Ocean.

The senior Administration official put it bluntly: "Our goal is to help prevent a coup or a usurpation of power by Muslim Brotherhood types or by Al Qaeda."

quote:

As in Yemen there are international fears as to the void that would be left if President Bashar Assad is toppled in Syria but hostility to him is growing, says the Economist:

Although he is still more likely to opt for repression over rapid reform, as a cycle of protests, funerals and arrests take hold, nobody knows whether he will ride out the trouble or be swept away by it ...

Much will depend on the silent majority of Syria's 22m people, especially its leading businessmen and clerics. So far, governments in the region have sounded sympathetic towards Mr Assad. Qatar's foreign minister, in the forefront of opposition to Libya's Muammar Qaddafi, visited Mr Assad as an apparent gesture of support. Al Jazeera, the influential Qatar-based satellite television channel, has infuriated Syria's protesters by giving them less airtime or credence than demonstrators in other Arab countries. Western governments, for their part, are wary of what might fill the vacuum if Mr Assad's regime fell. But if the protests persist, especially if they get bloodier, the momentum for radical change could quickly resume.

quote:

addafi's troops advanced on Misrata's eastern districts on today, triggering street battles with rebels in the coastal city that forced residents to flee the area, an opposition spokesman told Reuters. Hassan al-Misrati said:

"They tried to advance and enter the city from the eastern side, from an area called Eqseer which is a populated area. The rebels confronted them and clashes are continuing."

Meanwhile, the UN's children agency has said snipers are targeting children in Misrata, AP reports.

Unicef spokeswoman Marixie Mercado told reporters in Geneva the organisation has received "reliable and consistent reports of children being among the people targeted by snipers in Misrata".

She was unable to say how many children have been wounded or killed by snipers in Libya's third-largest city.

quote:

The Guardian's stringer in Damascus, Katherine Marsh (a pseudonym), reports on the background to today's protests and Assad's unsuccessful attempts to stem them with a series of concessions:

Demonstrations are expected across Syria again today - the fourth successive Friday of protests against the regime of Bashar al-Assad. Thousands are expected to gather in the southern city of Dera'a and the Damascus suburb of Douma, where huge crowds gathered last week and at least 15 were shot dead. Numbers are likely to be bolstered by residents from surrounding towns and villages, some of which held their own protests yesterday.

The Kurdish town of Qamischli in the north-east is likely to see gatherings again this week despite a last ditch effort yesterday by president Bashar al-Assad to quell unrest by offering nationality to 200,000 Kurds currently classed as "foreigners".

Some Kurdish leaders have already rejected the move, expressing doubt that it would signify an end to decades-long political and cultural repression of Syria's largest non-Arab ethnic minority, about 10% of Syria's population.

In a further round of what have become regular Thursday offers of minimal concessions, Assad fired the governor of Homs, another city likely to stage protests again today. Earlier this week he reversed a ban on niqab-clad teachers in schools and closing a casino in an apparent attempt to appease conservative Muslims. "He is reaching out to everyone but the people protesting" said an activist in Damascus. "This is causing unrest to grow." No announcement has yet been made on lifting the 48-year-old emergency law � a central demand of protesters.

Katherine says although security forces are reported to have withdrawn to the edge of some towns leaving them semi-autonomous, this has happened in preceding weeks, before forces have moved back in to quell protests on Fridays - with the use of lethal force. And she says that opposition attempts to widen the protests have been unsuccessful so far.

In an attempt to raise pressure on Assad, activists have been trying to mobilise crowds in central Damascus and the northern town of Aleppo, but so far with little success. Human rights organisations and diplomats say they are watching today closely after what happened in Douma last Friday.

quote:

Protests in the Yemeni capital Sana'a could escalate today as splits emerge in the opposition, Tom Finn reports from the city.

There are 200,000 people now stationed outside Sana'a university. If the younger, more frustrated protesters get their way and convince the others that they should march, then we may see an escalation today.

Inside the anti-goverment camp there is an increasing division between the youthful protesters who are saying 'we need to march if we want to get Saleh out of power', and the members of opposition parties who are saying 'we don't need to see any more violence we just need to stay put'.

The political opposition has long been a divided bunch. Islamist, Socialists, and Nasserites, who have struggled to reach a consensus and over the last few years have gained very little out of political negotiations with the president. Now with all this unrest they suddenly have this new found power ... They are not going to accept anything from the president unless he steps down and they get a decent stake in power.

On the Gulf Cooperation Council call for talks and for Saleh to step down under an immunity deal, Tom says:

On the streets that has gone down badly, especially at Sana'a university. The idea of the president and all of his relatives all getting off the hook ... is infuriated for these young guys who are seeking justice.

quote:

Nato has confirmed that its air strikes hit opposition fighters using tanks in their battle with the government forces in eastern Libya, but said it would not apologise for the deaths, reports AP.

Rear Admiral Russell Harding, the deputy commander of the Nato operation, said Nato had no previous information the rebels were operating tanks.

Nato jets attacked a rebel convoy between Brega and Ajdabiya on Thursday, killing at least five fighters and destroying or damaging a number of armoured vehicles.

Harding said that Nato jets had conducted 318 sorties and struck 23 targets across Libya in the past 48 hours. He said:

It would appear that two of our strikes yesterday may have resulted in (rebel) deaths. I am not apologising. The situation on the ground was and remains extremely fluid, and until yesterday we did not have information that (rebel) forces are using tanks.

quote:

Egyptian troops have been warned they face prosecution if they join today's protest in Tahrir Square, CNN reports.

It says the warning comes after videos were posted on YouTube by men purporting to be officers in the Egyptian military publicly challenging the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces.

Meanwhile, protesters in Tahrir Square have unfurled a Syrian flag in solidarity with pro-democracy campaigners there.

quote:

he Turkish prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, has released a statement concerning his peace plan for Libya. Erdogan says:

The fundamental purpose of our policy regarding Libya is the creation of necessary conditions to ensure a transition to constitutional democracy in line with the legitimate demands of the people and the preservation of Libya's territorial integrity and sovereignty.

Erdogan says "we carry no hidden agenda. Our sole agenda is to guarantee the unity and well-being of Libya." He appeals to his "brothers from Benghazi", assuring them that Turkey criticised the use of force against the Libyan people from the start and condemning "propaganda activities" against Turkey, which has been criticised by some for failing to take a strong enough line against Gaddafi. The Turkish prime minister describes the three elements of the "road map" as follows:

1. A genuine ceasefire should be established immediately and the forces affiliated with Gaddafi should lift the siege they impose on certain cities and withdraw from them.

2. Secure humanitarian zones should be established to provide unimpeded humanitarian aid to all our Libyan brothers indiscriminately.

3. A comprehensive democratic change and transformation process that takes into consideration the legitimate interests of all Libyan people must be launched immediately and urgently. This process should aim at establishing a constitutional democracy in which people would be able to elect their leaders with their free will.

Erdogan concludes:

Our people will always stand by the brotherly Libyan people and will work together with our Libyan brothers for the future of Libya.

quote:

@Razaniyat on Twitter says security forces have opened fire in the southern city of Dara'a, where the protests first began three weeks ago. We cannot verify the report.

Video has emerged appearing to show a protest last night in the city. It shows a crowd of hundreds of people, mostly men, chanting and marching through a street.

quote:

The Yemeni president, Ali Abdullah Saleh, has rejected a deal put forward by the Gulf Cooperation Council that involves him standing down in return for immunity from prosecution, according to Reuters. He described the proposal as "belligerent intervention" and said he was opposed to any other country resolving the crisis:

"They need to respect Yemenis' feelings whether they be friends or brothers ... We reject this coup on the legality of our constitution and on our democracy and freedom," he told supporters in San'a as tens of thousands elsewhere in the capital marched seeking his downfall.

Pro-democracy protesters are holding a "Friday of firmness" in Sana'a, shouting "You're next, you leader of the corrupt," as armoured vehicles and security forces deploy across the city. Some 4km away, tens of thousands of Saleh loyalists were marching, waving pictures of the president and banners that read "No to terrorism, no to sabotage".

Saleh's mercurial character and his handling of crisis is vividly portrayed by Dexter Filkins in the New Yorker, referred to earlier. He describes his appearance at a rally last month when he appeared to be offering concession:

While Yemenis offered adoring testimonials, Saleh fidgeted in his chair, repeatedly turning to chat, first with his prime minister and his vice-president, then with a group of aides behind him. Saleh is said to possess a savvy intelligence and the attention span of a teenage boy. Finally, after glancing at his watch, a bejewelled square of violet glass, he rose to speak.

Saleh is a short, stout man, with a thick-necked demeanour and a sandpapery voice. In a speech weeks earlier, he had practically spat at the people assembled before him, vowing to fight the protesters "with every last drop of blood." During a subsequent speech, he laid blame for the protests on the United States and Israel. "There is a control room in Tel Aviv for destabilizing the Arab world," Saleh said. "It is managed by the White House." It was the sort of remark that used to serve him well.

But this time Saleh's tone was soft ...

Yemenis had been debating for weeks whether Saleh would fight like Gaddafi or go peacefully like Mubarak. The consensus seemed to be that Saleh would fall between these extremes, but nobody knew exactly where. He wasn't crazy, but he wasn't a tired old man, either.

quote:

The Guardian stringer in Damascus, Katherine Marsh (a pseudonym), has an update on the fresh protests in Syria:

Protesters are gathering after Friday prayers in several towns. There are protests reported in the north-eastern Kurdish towns of Qamischli, Amouda and Derbassiyeh, with chants of "Syrians are all one", whilst crowds have once again gathered in Douma and Dera'a.

In the coastal city of Banias, eyewitnesses say people are holding olive branches and calling for peace. There are reports of protests in Deir Ezzor, a city in the impoverished eastern region close to the border with Iraq. Residents from there have long complained of a lack of economic development despite the area being home to much of the country's oil and agriculture.

One Kurd says 3,000 people are out in Qamischli - more than he expected. There are security forces there but they have no weapons, he says, whilst there are reports of small attempted protests in other areas being dispersed.

quote:

President Ismail Omar Guelleh of Djibouti is expected to be returned for a controversial third term today in tainted elections that were initially boycotted by the opposition.

The poll will go ahead without independent election observers.

Guelleh's opponents had hoped to spark a protest movement but, in the face of a crackdown, backed an independent candidate in the election, Mohamed Warsama.

Human Rights Watch, which was expelled from the country last month, says Guelleh's regime has arbitrarily arrested protesters and opposition leaders.

Rona Peligal, deputy Africa director, said: "The government has trampled on those very rights that make a vote free and fair. Peaceful protests elsewhere in the region are no justification for the government to deny citizens their basic rights."

Reuters reports:

Guelleh, 63, has been in power since 1999 and a change in the constitution in 2010 allowed him to run for a third term, a move that angered opposition leaders.

Just over 152,000 people are registered to vote in the small Red Sea state that is home to the only US military base in Africa plus the largest French army camp on the continent, and is used by anti-piracy naval patrols.

Warsama, 52, is campaigning on a platform of improving the country's judicial system and social services.

"In the absence of Democracy International, and without independent election observers, President Guelleh will try to legitimise the results of the election by making all sorts of wild claims about voter turnout and the percentage of the vote he has received," Abdourahman Boreh, an opposition figure who went into exile in 2009, said in a March 30 statement.

quote:

Residents in the southern city of Dara'a, where several demonstrators have died in recent protests, have told Reuters that three more people were killed today.

"I saw pools of blood and three bodies in the street being picked up by relatives in the Mahatta area," said one of the witnesses, who spoke to Reuters by telephone.

quote:

The Guardian stringer in Damascus, Katherine Marsh (a pseudonym), has just sent this update on the latest protests against President Bashar al-Assad, with unconfirmed reports of four deaths in the southern city of Dara'a.

There are reports of security forces opening fire and using tear gas to disperse protesters in Dara'a. Activists say four were killed and that ambulances were prevented from reaching the injured, but the Guardian has so far been unable to independently confirm that.

Douma, which has been seething all week since at least 15 were killed last Friday, has reportedly had phone and internet cut. Similarly to last week, protesters have clashed with security forces in Kafer Souseh, an affluent area of Damascus, and eyewitnesses say a demonstration took place in Harasta, another area of Damascus.

Protesters in Banias are now chanting for Dara'a; Jableh has staged a demonstration and residents in Homs have also taken to the streets a day after President Assad sacked the governor who has been a target of protesters' ire.

It seems like today is going to see as many, if not more, people on the streets than last Friday in a growing challenge to Assad who has so far not met the protesters' demands. But with information taking a while to leak out and be verified through amateur footage and calls to eyewitnesses, the full picture will not be clear until later.

quote:

The Yemeni government apparently targeted a leading army general and rival of President Saleh, who defected last month, by telling Saudi military commanders that his headquarters was a rebel base to be bombed, my colleague Peter Walker writes:

The extraordinary plot � foiled when suspicious Saudi pilots aborted the air strike � has emerged in one of the classified US embassy cables released by WikiLeaks.

Dated February 2010, the cable illustrates the extent to which relations between Saleh and Ali Mohsen al-Ahmar had deteriorated more than a year before the general declared his support for anti-regime protesters.

The US cable recounts a meeting between James B Smith, the American ambassador in Riyadh, and Prince Khaled bin Sultan, the junior Saudi defence minister. The talks were arranged for Smith to pass on US concerns about Saudi air strikes on the Houthis, a Shia insurgent group in the north of Yemen.

Khaled told the ambassador that targets were selected by a joint committee of senior Saudi and Yemeni officers.

Smith's note continues: "Prince Khaled also reported that the Saudis had problems with some of the targeting recommendations received from the Yemeni side. For instance, there was one occasion when Saudi pilots aborted a strike, when they sensed something was wrong about the information they received from the Yemenis. It turned out that the site recommended to be hit was the headquarters of General Ali Mohsen al-Ahmar, the Yemeni northern area military commander, who is regarded as a political opponent to President Saleh. This incident prompted the Saudis to be more cautious about targeting recommendations from the Yemeni government."

quote:

There is troubling news of a violent crackdown in the southern city of Taiz in Yemen.

Reuters says dozens have been wounded. Citing medical sources, al-Jazeera reports "more than 50 people have been injured as a result of tear gas in Taiz. Ten others were injured by batons or knives. One person has been shot with live ammunition, and is in critical condition."

quote:

We reported earlier that members of the Egyptian armed forces were warned they would be prosecuted if they joined the protests in Cairo today.

Judging by a picture from Tahrir Square posted on yfrog, it looks like a lot of them have ignored the threat.

@mosaaberizing tweets:

Incredible. A group of army soldiers joined the protesters minutes ago, were welcomed with huge cheers from the crowd. #Tahrir

quote:

At least 10 people have been killed in Dara'a a hospital source has told Reuters. Witnesses reported security forces opened fire to disperse demonstrators.

The state news agency SANA reported shooting in Dara'a, but it said "vandals" had opened fire on mass gatherings, killing a policeman and an ambulance driver and wounding dozens of police and residents.

2.56pm - Syria:

Video footage of demonstrations in a number of Syrian cities is now coming thick and fast.

A number feature on the opposition website Syrian Revolution.

This shows a demonstration near the Rifa'ai mosque, in the capital Damascus. The protesters shout "God, Syria and freedom only," according to our Arabic speaking colleague Mona Mahmood.

Another shows a demonstration in the north western town of Homs. After about two minutes protesters appear to start throwing objects at a stone relief of the late authoritarian president Assad.

The protesters refer to the current president as a "coward" and urge him to direct his soldiers towards the occupied territories, rather than protesters. They also pay tribute to protesters killed in Dara'a. "We sacrifice our blood and soul you Dara'a," they chant.

# ? Apr 8, 2011 15:08

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 17:58

Baddog: May 12, 2001

Jut posted:

NATO to rebels "gently caress us? well gently caress you too!"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13010170

This is pretty absurd, since I know I've seen stuff in this thread about the rebels looking for people who can drive tanks in this thread, among all the captured equipment. And the NATO commander doesn't even know?

# ? Apr 8, 2011 15:43

Contraction mapping: Jul 4, 2007; THE NAZIS WERE SOCIALISTS

Baddog posted:

This is pretty absurd, since I know I've seen stuff in this thread about the rebels looking for people who can drive tanks in this thread, among all the captured equipment. And the NATO commander doesn't even know?

I'm pretty sure he was referring to them not being aware of rebel tanks in MISRATA, as opposed to not being aware of them possessing tanks at all. Either way, coordination and communication with NATO has been loving abysmal thus far, and I'm pretty shocked that a hastily prepared UN coalition was able to perform far better in this regard than an organization that's had 50+ years of experience coordinating military action. Hopefully they get their poo poo together soon so the rebels don't have to suffer any more needless casualties than they already have.

# ? Apr 8, 2011 17:17

dj_clawson: Jan 12, 2004; We are all sinners in the eyes of these popsicle sticks.

If you read any articles about the rape victim's CNN interview, don't look at the comments. They represent the worst of humanity: people who are eager to blame the victim for either going out on her own or being a puppet of Obama to justify the war in Libya.

# ? Apr 8, 2011 21:48

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

dj_clawson posted:

If you read any articles about the rape victim's CNN interview, don't look at the comments. They represent the worst of humanity: people who are eager to blame the victim for either going out on her own or being a puppet of Obama to justify the war in Libya.

Apparent rape victim. We don't know anything about her and the video we saw didn't show any of the bruises claimed by the reporters. Given the amount of misinformation to try and portray CQ's supporters as monsters, I'm skeptical at just about everything to do with this war now.

# ? Apr 8, 2011 23:32

Baddog: May 12, 2001

Contraction mapping posted:

You do know the US isn't playing a major role anymore, right? As in, they aren't even running sorties? The UK and France are doing all the heavy lifting now, I seriously doubt the US will be dumping 10 bil into this.

We'll see. You do know that the US is still doing a hell of a lot over there, if not actually killing people anymore. Plus I don't think that Britain and France have the will or the cash to handle anything long term (not that we do). The cost of just a nofly zone was estimated at up to 300 mill per week.

# ? Apr 8, 2011 23:56

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

http://cjchivers.com/post/4376650345/in-eastern-libya-rebels-pushed-back-again

# ? Apr 9, 2011 00:33

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

It took me a moment to realize what that was. When I did, :stare:

I hope there's no one in the back when it goes off.

# ? Apr 9, 2011 00:39

Galaga Galaxian: Apr 23, 2009; What a childish tactic!
Don't you think you should put more thought into your battleplan?!

Young Freud posted:

It took me a moment to realize what that was. When I did,

I hope there's no one in the back when it goes off.

Indeed, and I doubt they had someone do the math to figure out they had to mount that a X angle to hit a target at Y distance using rockets flying an arc of Z.

I just... oh boy. :eng99:

# ? Apr 9, 2011 00:41

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Xandu posted:

http://cjchivers.com/post/4376650345/in-eastern-libya-rebels-pushed-back-again

It's like live action Interstate '76.

# ? Apr 9, 2011 00:42

Contraction mapping: Jul 4, 2007; THE NAZIS WERE SOCIALISTS

Xandu posted:

http://cjchivers.com/post/4376650345/in-eastern-libya-rebels-pushed-back-again

Bless those brave souls and the obscenely dangerous weapons they are willing to construct in defence of their cause :bravo:

# ? Apr 9, 2011 01:12

Lustful Man Hugs: Jul 18, 2010

Xandu posted:

http://cjchivers.com/post/4376650345/in-eastern-libya-rebels-pushed-back-again

Tha- that isn't... is it?

# ? Apr 9, 2011 03:05

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

ChaosSamusX posted:

Tha- that isn't... is it?

It belongs on a Mi-24 helicopter, pictured below, and there's not a chance in hell it will be accurate when it goes off.

# ? Apr 9, 2011 03:24

Pureauthor: Jul 8, 2010; ASK ME ABOUT KISSING A GHOST

This whole thing is deep into the far end of some horrendous black comedy.

# ? Apr 9, 2011 03:35

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

Xandu posted:

It belongs on a Mi-24 helicopter, pictured below, and there's not a chance in hell it will be accurate when it goes off.

To be specific, its a UB-32 rocket launcher that fires S-5 80mm rockets. Essentially, they're unguided folding-fin rockets for ground attack aircraft, not just helicopters.

# ? Apr 9, 2011 03:36

fromoutofnowhere: Mar 19, 2004; Enjoy it while you can.

I would not want to be the passenger or driver of that truck if they manage to actually fire that pod.

# ? Apr 9, 2011 03:37

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

Leperflesh posted:

Which is a long-winded way of saying, General Ham has no loving business suggesting that the US might put boots on the ground, just hours after Obama reiterated that the US will not put boots on the ground.

Did anyone miss the part where General Ham outright stated that the US putting boots on the ground would actually be a bad idea?

quote:

Asked whether the U.S. would provide troops, Ham said, "I suspect there might be some consideration of that. My personal view at this point would be that that's probably not the ideal circumstance, again for the regional reaction that having American boots on the ground would entail."

# ? Apr 9, 2011 04:41

Yaos: Feb 22, 2003; She is a cat of significant gravy.

Xandu posted:

http://cjchivers.com/post/4376650345/in-eastern-libya-rebels-pushed-back-again

That was that one guy in the Pacific in WW2 that held off an attack on his own using mounted guns and using a mortar like a gun so it's not too bad! Of course, he probably knew what he was doing.

# ? Apr 9, 2011 05:12

killing_fields: Jan 31, 2009

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/04/20114921821599558.html

"Egyptian army breaks up protest with force
Gunfire reported as soldiers storm Cairo's Tahrir Square, where protesters called for prosecution of former officials."

Back to square one??

# ? Apr 9, 2011 05:35

Homeroom Fingering: Apr 25, 2009; The secret history (((they))) don't want you to know

Xandu posted:

It belongs on a Mi-24 helicopter, pictured below, and there's not a chance in hell it will be accurate when it goes off.

That's what you see when it goes off, not being accurate? Because I see half the rebels in the immediate area dead and the other half on fire.

# ? Apr 9, 2011 06:47

Nonsense: Jan 26, 2007; Can't post for 17 hours!

killing_fields posted:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/04/20114921821599558.html

"Egyptian army breaks up protest with force
Gunfire reported as soldiers storm Cairo's Tahrir Square, where protesters called for prosecution of former officials."

Back to square one??

This is very big news, and its been suspected pretty much during all of last month that the military was pulling shady poo poo, even worse considering the NDP was still around, in power, and completely free to run in the next elections, and not burned to the ground and turned to ashes.

# ? Apr 9, 2011 07:10

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

Nonsense posted:

This is very big news, and its been suspected pretty much during all of last month that the military was pulling shady poo poo, even worse considering the NDP was still around, in power, and completely free to run in the next elections, and not burned to the ground and turned to ashes.

Any reason they shouldn't be free to run in the next election? let democracy and poo poo weed them out if the people desire it (of course this is assuming they will be fair elections)

# ? Apr 9, 2011 07:25

quadratic: May 2, 2002; f(x) = ax^2 + bx + c

I haven't seen this reported anywhere yet, but the Egyptian Supreme Council of the Armed Forces has issued Communique 34 ordering the detention of Ibrahim Kamel, a prominent figure in the NDP. He, along with a few of his lackeys, are accused of inciting violence in Tahrir Square yesterday. Kamel was previously accused of funding the infamous "Battle of the Camel" and other general thuggery during the protests.

# ? Apr 9, 2011 07:40

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

Good, let justice take care of him and set an example. The NDP should be able to run otherwise again they will not be democratic elections. The military really should either capture and give Mubarak over to authorities, or just say that either they can't because his money props them up or because they made a deal with him if he left power without a struggle.

# ? Apr 9, 2011 08:05

CeeJee: Dec 4, 2001; Oven Wrangler

Galaga Galaxian posted:

Indeed, and I doubt they had someone do the math to figure out they had to mount that a X angle to hit a target at Y distance using rockets flying an arc of Z.

You can seen them in action here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7dqwII-gbU It's very spectacular and Allahu Akbar worthy.

Like Gadaffi, Gbagbo is refusing to go along with the playbook that he's defeated and should just give up. Or this bunch of rebels is just as good at making poo poo up like besieging his residence and getting UN help for that little last push.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13019333

quote:

Forces loyal to Ivory Coast's incumbent leader Laurent Gbagbo have gained ground in Abidjan, the UN says.

UN peacekeeping chief Alain Le Roy said Mr Gbagbo's forces had used a lull for peace talks to strengthen their position in the country's main city.

Forces loyal to the internationally recognised president Alassane Ouattara had been besieging Mr Gbagbo in his residence in Abidjan.

But the UN says Mr Gbagbo's troops now control two districts of the city.

"They clearly used the lull of Tuesday as a trick to reinforce their position," Mr Le Roy said, referring to a dip in the fighting after three of Mr Gbagbo's generals requested talks.

It had appeared three days ago that Mr Gbagbo was on the verge of defeat but the upscale Plateau and Cocody areas of Abidjan are now fully in the control of his forces.

The BBC's Mark Doyle, in Abidjan, says the Ouattara camp's claim to have Mr Gbagbo's residence surrounded appears exaggerated.

# ? Apr 9, 2011 09:53

XK: Jul 9, 2001; Star Citizen is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it's fidelity when you look out your window or when you watch youtube

fromoutofnowhere posted:

I would not want to be the passenger or driver of that truck if they manage to actually fire that pod.

Despite all the naysaying in this thread, I saw video of one of those being used, and it worked perfectly. They pulled the pick-up to the side of the read, shot off a few rockets, then continued on their way. It didn't even seem slightly ungainly. Similar to the video in the previous post, but the one I saw had a guy in the back helping aim. Yes, he was smart enough to stand off to the side.

XK fucked around with this message at 10:38 on Apr 9, 2011

# ? Apr 9, 2011 10:36

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

XK posted:

Despite all the naysaying in this thread, I saw video of one of those being used, and it worked perfectly. They pulled the pick-up to the side of the read, shot off a few rockets, then continued on their way. It didn't even seem slightly ungainly. Similar to the video in the previous post, but the one I saw had a guy in the back helping aim. Yes, he was smart enough to stand off to the side.

Looks like they stand more chance of landing randomly somewhere in a city than hitting the intended target.

# ? Apr 9, 2011 11:57

KurdtLives: Dec 22, 2004; Ladies and She-Hulks can't resist Murdock's Big Hallway Energy

Jut posted:

Looks like they stand more chance of landing randomly somewhere in a city than hitting the intended target.

Aren't they firing on Brega, which I thought was now a ghost town? No civilians to accidentially blow up? not that they will be lucky enough to hit any Loyalists either

# ? Apr 9, 2011 12:13

Sargs: Aug 15, 2001; Poyekhali!

It's worth remembering that Russian air-to-ground rockets were developed originally from a common rocket system produced in the thirties that could be fired either from aircraft against point targets (tanks, f'rinstance), or en-masse against area targets when fired from ground-based launchers like the famous Katyusha, or "Stalin's Organ", so they've got a development history of being dual-use

I bet there's probably a bit in the manuals for the modern-day rocket pods detailing exactly how to set one up so it can be fired as improvised artillery. Given that they're designed to be fired from aircraft, the backblast will be confined to a narrow jet without too much spread (you don't want to flame out your own jet engines by ingesting rocket exhaust) but I really did not expect the driver to still be in the truck when he fired the bloody thing; that's some serious faith in the toughness of modern windshields...

# ? Apr 9, 2011 12:19

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

KurdtLives posted:

Aren't they firing on Brega, which I thought was now a ghost town? No civilians to accidentially blow up? not that they will be lucky enough to hit any Loyalists either

When a town's under CQ's control it's a ghost town, as soon as the rebels take it, it's a civilian area. In short we don't know how many people are still there.

# ? Apr 9, 2011 13:31

Contraction mapping: Jul 4, 2007; THE NAZIS WERE SOCIALISTS

CeeJee posted:

You can seen them in action here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7dqwII-gbU It's very spectacular and Allahu Akbar worthy.

That's much safer than than I thought it would be, but still pretty useless as a weapon unless they've got a rangefinder in the truck and are firing at a dense sea of Gaffy's troops. The only way I could see this working accurately on a land vehicle with the limited aiming tech the rebels have is to jury-rig it on a cherry-picker to fire downward and have some guy in the box aiming the drat thing somehow, and even then it would be pretty loving hard to score a hit.

# ? Apr 9, 2011 17:55

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

Latest from the Guardian:

quote:

A Libyan opposition group is asking the US for immediate access to frozen assets of Muammar Gaddafi to pay for humanitarian needs in rebel-held areas, according to Reuters:

Ali Aujali, who resigned in February as Libya's ambassador to the United States and now heads Libya's most prominent rebel organization in Washington, in a letter to US Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner said the humanitarian conditions have deteriorated in areas held by the rebels.

Rebel groups seeking to overthrow the Libyan leader have been fighting pro-Gaddafi forces in a civil war ignited in February when Gaddafi tried to crush pro-democracy rallies.

Aujali, in the letter dated Thursday, said his group, the transitional national council, "needs immediate access to the Gaddafi regime's frozen assets in U.S. financial institutions to meet the basic needs of the Libyan people."

The United States has frozen more than $34 billion in assets as part of sanctions against Gaddafi and his top officials.

quote:

NPR has posted an audio report by Lourdes Garcia Navarro, who was one of a number of journalists taken yesterday to the city of Misrata by the Libyan regime.

The purpose of the trip was to show that pro-Gaddafi forces are in control of the city, the last in western Libya in active revolt against the regime.

But when the group of journalists arrived they immediately found themselves in the middle of a firefight.

"The battle for Misrata is far from over," reported Garcia Navarro.

On the way out, she said that they met a group of diplomats from Cuba, Venezuela and Serbia who were scheduled to have lunch in the city.

However, the diplomats were instead diverted to the site of a Nato air strike miles in a different direction.

quote:

A move by pro-Gaddafi forces into the rebel-held town of Ajdabiya today appears to have been more of a raid than a serious attempt to recapture it.

That's according to the BBC's John Lane, who has just been speaking to the BBC news channel from the eastern city of Benghazi.

Nevertheless, he said that the raid by the pro-Gaddafi force, who came by surprise from positions in the desert, would be regarded as a setback for the rebels.

Coalition aircraft appear to have made no attempt to attack the raiders.

quote:

Chris McGreal has filed a report for the Observer on the sudden shift in mood among rebels in the eastern city of Benghazi.

Anger has been increasing there over what is seen as a retreat by the west from air strikes against Muammar Gaddafi's forces � a fury compounded by two botched Nato raids that killed rebel fighters and growing impatience with the rebel leadership:

Recent setbacks have shaken confidence and raised concerns that Libya might be facing an extended civil war or division, which means divided families among other things.

People in rebel-held areas want to know what the revolutionary council � a 31-person body that functions around a core of 11 people who have been publicly named and meet regularly in Benghazi � is doing about it. But they are getting few answers.

The council's two principal leaders, Mahmoud Jibril and Mustafa Abdul Jalil, are hardly visible. Both men are, in any case, regarded by those dealing directly with them as sincere and well-meaning but lacking in charisma or authority.

One person working closely with the council's day-to-day operations was deeply frustrated at the fact that "they don't understand the need to communicate with the Libyan people".

"They don't understand that no one knows who they are. These lawyers and doctors in Benghazi who say they are a government, it's like kids playing dress-up for a lot of them."

"They don't understand the need to explain to the people what it is they are doing," the source said.

The council meetings themselves reflect the new-found freedoms Libyans in the rebel-held areas have to say what they think without fear of persecution, but they are not necessarily an efficient form of governance.

"They talk a lot. It's seen to be rude to interrupt and everyone who has had to suppress his opinion all these years is enjoying expressing it," the source said.

"But while they talk a lot they've slammed the brakes on making decisions on some things � the constitution, economic planning for the future � because the country is still divided and they don't want to be accused of imposing decisions on the other half of the country when Gaddafi is gone. They say there has to be a national discussion before these decisions can be made."

But even where decisions are made, few of the people affected by them are told.

Domestic opinion is not the priority because of the revolutionaries' need to win international recognition and access to desperately needed Libyan financial assets frozen overseas.

quote:

Evan Hill, an online producer for Al Jazeera English, tweets:

The Egyptian army has told TV crews that anyone live broadcasting their press conference today will be arrested. #jan25 #Tahrir

quote:

Some more news from Syria now, where Reuters quotes witnesses as saying that Syrian security forces opened fire today on mourners near a mosque in the flashpoint city of Deraa after a mass funeral for pro-democracy protesters.

Security forces used live ammunition and tear gas to disperse thousands of people who were chanting freedom slogans after assembling near the old Omari mosque in the old quarter of the southern city near the border with Jordan, they said.

At least 37 were killed across the country on Friday, according to a Syrian rights group, the National Organisation for Human Rights.

"What is happening in Syria is a flagrant violation of (human rights)," it said in a statement.

After Friday's bloodshed, Syria's interior ministry warned it would not tolerate breaches of the law and would deal with "armed groups", the country's state news agency, SANA, said today.

quote:

Djibouti's president, Ismail Omar Guelleh, garnered 80.58 percent of votes cast in the country's elections on Friday, according to provisional results out today.

The result would give him a third term in power in small Red Sea state, where the opposition initially boycotted the ballot and tried to start Egyptian-style protests in February.

The interior Minister, Yacin Elmi Bouh, said that Guelleh's rival, Mohamed Warsama, got 19.42 percent of votes cast in the election, which had a 69.68 percent turnout, according to Reuters.

Just over 152,000 people are registered to vote in the small Red Sea state which has the only US military base in Africa and the largest French army camp on the continent.

Human Rights Watch said that the US-funded Democracy International election monitoring organisation was expelled from Djibouti in March. The government said the body had failed to maintain its neutrality in the run-up to the vote.

quote:

Authorities in Bahrain have arrested and beaten up a prominent human rights activist and members of his family, according to a rights group in the tiny Gulf kingdom.

Abdulhadi al-Khawaja was arrested with two sons-in-law, the Bahrain Centre for Human Rights said in a statement on Saturday after security forces launched a crackdown on pro-democracy protesters.

"They broke the front door to the house and then beat them severely" along with another man, the group said, adding:"... al-Khawaja was beaten so severely that the blood stain is still visible on the staircase. And when his oldest daughter, Zainab, tried to intervene she was beaten as well."

Al-Khawaja lived in exile for 12 years before he was allowed to return under a general amnesty, according to Reuters.

He was imprisoned for political dissent in 2004 and later pardoned by the king.

quote:

As many as 100,000 people marched earlier today in the Yemeni city of Taiz, where about 400 were injured in previous protests.

The demonstrators blame the local governor, chief of security and leader of the ruling party for the violence, according to an Associated Press report on protesters who have taken to the streets for the second day to demand the ouster of President Ali Abdullah Saleh.

The Yemeni government meanwhile, angry over Qatar's suggestion that Saleh resign, recalled its ambassador to the Gulf state.

The official Yemeni news agency Saba said the ambassador was recalled for consultation on the recent statement made by the Qatari prime minister, Sheik Hamad bin Jassem, about the six-nation Gulf Co-operation Council's offer of mediation between Saleh and the opposition.

AP had more on the situation today in Taiz, where activist Ghazi al-Samei said protesters were in the yard in front of the governor's office and had been there since Friday.

The demonstrators, joined by several members of parliament, are demanding the governor's removal and trial.

Another activist, Abdel Malek al-Youssefi, said Taiz's main streets were filled with black smoke as a result of burning tyres, and that at least 30 children needed to be hospitalised for smoke inhalation.

He said tanks were at the city's outskirts to prevent people from other towns taking part in the rally and that many supporters of the ruling Congress party changed their allegiances and joined the ranks of the opposition.

quote:

To Libya now, where forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi shelled retreating rebels west of Ajdabiya today, forcing fighters to pull back and open fire with their own heavy weapons to try to hold the town.

As the shelling intensified, a major blast occurred on the outskirts of the city and threw up a mushroom cloud, according to the Associated Press, although it was not immediately clear whether it was a Nato air strike or part of the ground battle.

While a humanitarian breakthrough has come in the form of a Red Cross aid ship that docked in the besieged Misrata, AP has more on the battle for control of the country:

The government attacks on Ajdabiya quickly changed the fortunes of rebels who had earlier sent units deeper toward the strategic oil port of Brega, 40 miles (65km) from Ajdabiya, and captured two soldiers loyal to Muammar Gaddafi.

It's unclear whether government troops would make a push of their own into the eastern town of Ajdabiya, which has been nearly deserted by civilians. But taking control of the town would open the way to the rebel stronghold of Benghazi and the eastern port of Tobruk near the Egyptian border.

Most rebel forces pulled back to Ajdabiya when the shelling began, but later appeared to attempt a counter-offensive with heavy machine guns and rockets. Black smoke rose from parts of the town and some buildings were ablaze.

Earlier, rebels had pushed deeper toward Brega, a key prize in the back-and-forth battles with government forces.

Rebels say they took two prisoners after a clash with soldiers near Brega's Bright Star University, outside the government-controlled oil facilities, marking a noticeable advance by rebels against Gaddafi's forces.

The eastern Libyan port has changed hands more than five times since the uprising against Gaddafi's rule began in February. The port and oil storage facilities are strategic for both sides.

Rebels have regrouped on the front lines after a mass retreat Thursday when Nato air strikes accidentally hit a rebel armoured column.[quote]

[quote] Last night's scenes in Tahrir Square, where military and police stormed in to remove protesters demanding the trial of former president Hosni Mubarak and the removal of Field Marshal Mohammed Hussein Tantawi as interim head of state, were perhaps inevitable, says colleague Peter Beaumont.

He explains why Egypt could be moving closer to a centre-stage position in the ongoing political earthquakes across the Middle East:

Over the last few weeks � while international attention has been focused on Libya and Yemen � dissatisfaction has been growing rapidly both with the slow pace of reform, the lack of legal moves against Mubarak and his allies, and a growing fear that the army has been undermining the country's revolution.

They are concerns that have seen ever larger numbers turning out in recent Fridays at Tahrir Square which culminated in this Friday's huge protest which drew hundreds of thousands.

Those demonstrators have in the last fortnight delivered a forthright warning to Tantawi, chanting slogans reminding him his legitimacy is derived from the 25th January Revolution but also � of more concern for the army � calling once again for the fall of the regime.

The growing tension has not been missed by the High Council of the Armed Forces, which Tantawi heads.

In an effort to placate groups, including the Youth Revolution Coalition, which emerged from the events of Tahrir Square, it ordered the purging of most of the editors of the country's national press.

But the moves, judging by the scale of yesterday's protest, appear to have been too little and too late � not least over boiling anger over the lack of moves against Mubarak now under house arrest in Sharm el Sheik.

Many in Egypt want to see a trial not only of Mubarak but his son Gamal as well and many of their allies, and insist on an accounting of where the family's wealth came from.

It goes beyond that, as Al Ahram weekly made clear this week. What many desire is a wide-ranging purge of those Mubarak party loyalists in key positions across Egyptian society, including universities and governors.

Despite all this, the proximate trigger for last night's assault may have been something of more direct concern to the army itself � the appearance of several dozen military officers at the demonstration who defied orders to join the protest.

quote:

Syrian security forces used live ammunition overnight to disperse a pro-democracy protest by hundreds of people in a Sunni district of Latakia, according to a report from Reuters.

The shooting reportedly caused scores of injuries and possible deaths, said residents, including one who saw water trucks hosing down the scene in the Sleibeh district of Latakia, Syria's main port, 210 miles (330km) north-west of the capital.

Anti-government demonstrations spread across Syria yesterday with the highest turnout yet in a month of unrest, despite a heavy crackdown by security forces in the city of Deraa in which at least 22 people were reported killed.

quote:

As the fallout from uprisings around the Middle East continues, the most intense round of fighting since Israel's 2008-09 offensive is taking place between Israeli forces and militants in Gaza.

Israel pounded Hamas targets in the Gaza Strip with air strikes and tank shells today, killing four militants, according to Palestinian officials contacted by the Associated Press news agency.

As Palestinian missiles landed in Israel, AP reported:

In all, 18 Gazans have been killed and more than 65 wounded since Israel unleashed the strikes following a Hamas attack on an Israeli school bus on Thursday.

An anti-tank rocket struck the bus, seriously wounding a 16-year-old boy and injuring the driver.

After Israel's devastating military offensive in the winter of 2008-09, Gaza's Hamas rulers had largely observed a ceasefire, and it was not immediately clear why the Islamic militants chose to end their relative restraint.

Israel, in turn, has pledged to strike back hard for the bus attack, in an attempt to restore the deterrence created by the Gaza war.

Early on Saturday, an Israeli air strike struck a car near Rafah in southern Gaza, killing three Hamas militants.

Hamas said one of its top commanders, 29-year-old Tayser Abu Snima, and two of his assistants were killed.

Later, Hamas said a tank shell killed another militant near the Jabalya neighbourhood in Gaza. The Israeli military said it was not aware of a strike involving a tank shell.
Overall, the Palestinian death toll since Thursday includes 11 militants, a Hamas policeman and six civilians.

Hamas and Islamic Jihad fired more than 15 missiles into Israel on Saturday. The rockets reached the vicinity of the Israeli cities of Ashdod, Ashkelon and Beersheba.

The military confirmed that its newly deployed Iron Dome defence system knocked some of them down. No Israelis were wounded in the attacks.

And because god knows we need it, here's a positive take on the protests in Yemen:

quote:

In five years my country has witnessed six wars, but now the people's guns are silent; they have chosen peaceful change. Despite the fact that hundreds of protesters have been killed by the regime, not one police officer or security agent has been killed by the masses. Even Ma'arab, the most unruly and turbulent province, has witnessed its first peaceful demonstrations.

Violent tribesmen who have fought each other for decades have come together in "liberation squares"; blood feuds have been forgotten. When snipers killed more than 50 protesters and wounded 1,000 on the Friday of Dignity, it was the young who arrested the culprits; not one was attacked or injured, despite the anger and the blood that had flowed in the streets. This was the peaceful nature of the revolution in practice.

For the first time people in the south stopped calling for separation, raised the national flag and demanded an end to the regime. It's been truly historic. The country is united in its aim to rid itself of the regime through public vigils and rallies, civil disobedience and slogans instead of tear gas and bullets.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/apr/08/revolution-saleh-yemen-peace-historic

# ? Apr 9, 2011 20:24

Contraction mapping: Jul 4, 2007; THE NAZIS WERE SOCIALISTS

Shageletic posted:

Good stuff

Thanks for the update; Syria's starting to get out of control

.

(Also, you've got a broken quote in there you may want to fix)

# ? Apr 9, 2011 21:04

Nilbop: Jun 5, 2004; Looks like someone forgot his hardhat...

This really doesn't seem to be slowing, does it?

I wonder how far this will spread. I wonder if we could expect to see this level of rioting in Greece or Spain soon, or further east.

# ? Apr 9, 2011 21:16

IRQ: Sep 9, 2001; SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!

Contraction mapping posted:

That's much safer than than I thought it would be, but still pretty useless as a weapon unless they've got a rangefinder in the truck and are firing at a dense sea of Gaffy's troops. The only way I could see this working accurately on a land vehicle with the limited aiming tech the rebels have is to jury-rig it on a cherry-picker to fire downward and have some guy in the box aiming the drat thing somehow, and even then it would be pretty loving hard to score a hit.

There's no way they hit anything but sand with that thing, but it is the most awesome technical I've ever seen.

# ? Apr 9, 2011 21:19

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

It's not slowing down, but at the same time, it's easy to forget only two governments have been overthrown.

# ? Apr 9, 2011 21:19

Zero grinder: Sep 25, 2010; Fun Shoe

IRQ posted:

There's no way they hit anything but sand with that thing, but it is the most awesome technical I've ever seen.

It's like the GLA rocket buggy. Shoot and scoot.

# ? Apr 9, 2011 21:37

killing_fields: Jan 31, 2009

Zero grinder posted:

It's like the GLA rocket buggy. Shoot and scoot.

You are nerdy as gently caress dude but that is a very funny comparison.

# ? Apr 9, 2011 22:04

Zero grinder: Sep 25, 2010; Fun Shoe

killing_fields posted:

You are nerdy as gently caress dude but that is a very funny comparison.

SA The internet is nerdy? Surely you jest!

Regardless its amazing to see how fast this revolutionary movement is spreading.

# ? Apr 9, 2011 22:11

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Apr 29, 2024 17:58

DonT15: Oct 31, 2010

Xandu posted:

It's not slowing down, but at the same time, it's easy to forget only two governments have been overthrown.

This.

It's going to be a lot harder for this to continue. No governments are going to be caught off guard anymore.

# ? Apr 9, 2011 22:14

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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