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LibyaFeb17.com has got footage of the journalists hit by the mortar strike earlier.  http://feb17.info/media/video-footage-of-hetherington-hondros-and-martin-at-the-hospital/ 
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Apr 20, 2011 21:32
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Tovarisch Rafa posted:So the message I got out of all this is that Europe and the US will do whatever it takes to ensure steady supplies of oil or geopolitical importance. If Libya was Somalia, none of this good stuff would have happened. But the US intervenes in Somalia all the time.
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Apr 20, 2011 21:38
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New Division posted:
I feel like you're starting with a thesis and working backwards to make every American intervention fit into it.
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Apr 20, 2011 21:41
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Xandu posted:But the US intervenes in Somalia all the time. I don't think anybody wants Libya to be like Somalia.
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Apr 20, 2011 21:46
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Xandu posted:I feel like you're starting with a thesis and working backwards to make every American intervention fit into it. Well, the U.S. government openly says it thinks keeping the Gulf of Aden secure is part of its vital strategic interests in the African region. The U.S. military even has the Combined Joint Task Force-Horn of Africa (CJTF-HOA) operating out of Djibouti partially because they think it's important to guard the Gulf of Aden and ensure maritime security for the shipping traffic there (and one of the biggest products shipped there is Persian Gulf Oil). Mind you, I never said that the Western oil needs were the ONLY reason the US and other Western countries are involved in the region. I just said it does play a role in why they have interest there.
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Apr 20, 2011 22:08
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From the Guardian feed:quote:Libya could hold free elections, supervised by the United Nations within six months of the end of the conflict currently engulfing the country, its foreign minister has told the Guardian. quote:The Syrian government arrested a prominent left-wing opposition politician overnight, prompting scepticism among regime opponents over moves to end emergency rule. Reuters reports that Mahmoud Issa was taken from his house around midnight my members of Syria's political security division. In an analysis of Syria's abrogation of its emergency law, the Guardian's Middle East editor, Ian Black, writes: quote:Bob Stewart, who served as a UN commander in Bosnia and is now a Conservative MP, told Radio Four's Today programme that sending in military advisers was only "just" in accordance with the UN resolution. quote:The Guardian's Brian Whitaker says Syria's announcement on the lifting of its decades-old emergency law should be taken with a dose of salt. quote:Amnesty International has called for an independent inquiry into human rights abuses committed by the state security investigations service, which is to be replaced by a new national security body. quote:The UN refugee agency estimates that 10,000 Libyans have fled fierce fighting in the mountainous western region into Tunisia over the past 10 days, including 6,000 over the weekend. The majority are ethnic Berbers, says UNHCR. quote:US officials say the Obama administration has decided to give the Libyan opposition $25 million in non-lethal assistance, AP reports.
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Apr 20, 2011 22:40
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CNN has a Despot Meter. http://www.realclearworld.com/video/2011/04/20/how_does_syrias_bashar_al-assad_rate.html
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Apr 20, 2011 23:03
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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/world/africa/21photographers.html Just announced that Chris Hondros has died as well. 
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Apr 20, 2011 23:20
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Tovarisch Rafa posted:Not the bombing maybe, but its directing it's European lackeys to do it. Totally, dude. It's not like the US was extremely reluctant to intervene in Libya or that Obama had to be dragged kicking and screaming into acting by Clinton/Rice or anything  .
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Apr 20, 2011 23:36
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DevNull posted:http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/world/africa/21photographers.html It looked like shrapnel hit him in the head from what I saw in the video posted at the top of the page. I doubt the doctors in Mistrata had the necessary training or equipment to deal with such an injury. If NATO really wants to send in ground units for "humanitarian operations", sending a combat field hospital might be the best contribution they can make. They know how to deal with the horrific wounds modern weapons can inflict. edit: Actually, Hondros probably would have died even if the best combat doctors in the world were there, but I still think a field hospital unit could save people who would otherwise die. New Division fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Apr 20, 2011 |
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Apr 20, 2011 23:37
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Contraction mapping posted:Totally, dude. It's not like the US was extremely reluctant to intervene in Libya or that Obama had to be dragged kicking and screaming into acting by Clinton/Rice or anything Not to mention the republicans calling him a coward because he wasn't going to follow the French in at first. Obama is probably to the right of Reagan at this point but if you're living in America it looks like your choice in a couple of years is going to be him or Trump. Do you really want a man who went bankrupt running Casinos as your President? Unless it means Trump followed by Weiner or Boehner 4 years later but that will probably guarantee another Bush following that. Remember this post the next time someone tells you the Middle East is full of funny names.
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Apr 21, 2011 01:11
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http://cjchivers.com/post/4794700317/almost-dawn-in-libya-chris-tim-heading-home posted:We’re numb here as the clock nears 4:30 a.m., and we’re not quite sure what to do. The deaths of Chris Hondros and Tim Hetherington on Tripoli Street still seem unreal. Bryan just walked off from the little space we’ve been huddled in, working. He’ll sleep soon, I hope. The work kept us busy enough to hold the worst of the feelings away. But now the work is almost done, and it will hit again with the same shock as the first word. 
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Apr 21, 2011 05:10
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Xandu posted:When I spoke to him a short while ago, I asked if he has been wearing his flak jacket, which I had carried into Misurata for him last week. Tripoli Street is a hell of flying bullets and shrapnel, and he’s on it almost every day. No, he said, I am not wearing it. I asked why not. “I gave it to an ambulance driver,” he said. poo poo, this here made me choke up...
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Apr 21, 2011 06:52
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NYT: (I've cut it up a bit here) http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/world/africa/21rebels.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1 quote:BENGHAZI, Libya — A PKT machine gun, a weapon designed to be mounted on a Soviet tank and fired electronically by a crew member inside, has no manual trigger, no sights and no shoulder stock. That does not prevent many Libyan rebels from carrying it as if it were an infantryman’s gun, even though it cannot be fired.
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Apr 21, 2011 07:26
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Concerned Citizen posted:NYT: (I've cut it up a bit here) Considering your history in this thread, I'm wondering why you're posting this. Is it because it's informative about the state of the popular forces, or is it supposed to make us want to give up supporting them or something? Because, seriously, while this is interesting, it's also hardly new or even surprising information. So a bunch of participants of a more-or-less spontaneous popular uprising are carrying whatever they could find in the way of weapons, don't know how they work much of the time, and aren't nearly as disciplined or tactically astute as real trained soldiers? Seriously, I want to know what your point is. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Apr 21, 2011 |
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Apr 21, 2011 07:59
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The point is, I think, that we're giving anti-aircraft weapons to Al-Qaeda. Now I love Al-Qaeda just as much as the next guy, but I think that's something Western powers should think about.
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Apr 21, 2011 08:30
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:
And using land mines (there was an outcry when CQ did this), child soldiers, firing indiscriminately, and brutalising suspected CQ supporters. Ask yourself, if CQ did the above would you be angry? then why are you sweeping this under the carpet? It's nice to know who our governments are getting into bed with.
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Apr 21, 2011 08:43
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Considering your history in this thread, I'm wondering why you're posting this. Is it because it's informative about the state of the popular forces, or is it supposed to make us want to give up supporting them or something? Because, seriously, while this is interesting, it's also hardly new or even surprising information. I like how you're deciding to ignore the fact that the rebels are straight using CQ tactics word for word because you decided this guy wasn't valid as a poster. Child soldiers and the like is unforgivable, even if the 'good guys' do it.
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Apr 21, 2011 08:54
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That article shows why the rebels need military advisors from the West to whip them into shape, and how useful the communications equipment and other non-lethal supplies being provided by the US will be to the rebels. Over the past few week I've read the rebels have reorganised, and experienced fighters have been seperated from the other rebels, and organised into units and sent to the frontlines. Other rebels, those who just turned up with whatever they could get their hands on with no military experience are being used to man checkpoints and kept away from the frontlines. One major problem is the lack of communication equipment, with plenty of reports of rebels using messengers to run between checkpoints, but the new equipment and training being provided should resolve this issue. Jut posted:And using land mines (there was an outcry when CQ did this), child soldiers, firing indiscriminately, and brutalising suspected CQ supporters. The difference between Gaddafi and the rebels is Gaddafi is using trained soldiers, and most of the rebels are whoever decided to turn up. There's no evidence that the organised elements of the rebels have been using child soldiers, and it's not like they've been rounding up children and giving them guns and marching them towards Gaddafi's troops. From what I can gather most of them are overeager teenagers who probably poo poo their pants and run away the second any fighting starts. While there's evidence that rebels have been brutalising CQ supporters this is again partly down to the fact that the rebels aren't professional soldiers, and just random dudes off the streets of Benghazi, some of which are going to be assholes. It's wrong, and the rebels leadership need to crack down on that sort of stuff, which is hopefully something the advisors from the west will help them do. They've certaintly cut back on parading captured soldiers on TV after HRW directly criticised them for doing it.
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Apr 21, 2011 08:55
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OwlBot 2000 posted:The point is, I think, that we're giving anti-aircraft weapons to Al-Qaeda. Now I love Al-Qaeda just as much as the next guy, but I think that's something Western powers should think about. Thanks for resurrecting this talking point. Jut posted:And using land mines (there was an outcry when CQ did this), child soldiers, firing indiscriminately, and brutalising suspected CQ supporters. There's been one case of a thirteen year old with a gun, which is bush league stuff compared to the various Sub-Saharan African wars over the past few decades. However, it's definitely not a good sign. The rebels are pretty much only using mines in Misrata from what I understand. You know, completely under siege humanitarian catastrophe zone Misrata? Again, not necessarily a good thing, although I think the land mine issue is somewhat overblown since they can be used in ways that minimize long-term risks to civilians. Whether that's the case here remains to be seen. And I like how you're getting all tearful about the actions of a rebelling populace against their former oppressors. Welcome to basic human nature. We're not a pleasant species, really. Once again, it's definitely not a good thing. And can I just add in closing that you're attempts to force some kind of equivalence between some so-far isolated but nonetheless disturbing incidents amongst a disorganized popular rebellion and the decades' long oppressive reign of Qaddafi & Co. is deeply odious and abhorrent. You really should be ashamed of yourself. shotgunbadger posted:I like how you're deciding to ignore the fact that the rebels are straight using CQ tactics word for word because you decided this guy wasn't valid as a poster. Child soldiers and the like is unforgivable, even if the 'good guys' do it. You're obscuring the real issue with oversimplification here. The thirteen year old mentioned in the NYT article is apparently an eager volunteer. That's a long way from the popularly-accepted (and rightly condemned) definition of child soldier as being some kid snatched from a village and forced to fight in an army. Also they're not "straight up using CQ tactics". If you can't tell the difference between an oppressed people taking out their anger on a captured oppressor and a systematic governmental torture policy, then I really don't think there's much you can offer the conversation in terms of cogent and useful analysis. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 09:00 on Apr 21, 2011 |
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Apr 21, 2011 08:55
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Thanks for resurrecting this talking point. It's a reminder that we know very little about the rebels, and that we should be very careful before doing something stupid like giving them arms.
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Apr 21, 2011 08:59
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Brown Moses posted:The difference between Gaddafi and the rebels is Gaddafi is using trained soldiers, and most of the rebels are whoever decided to turn up. There's no evidence that the organised elements of the rebels have been using child soldiers, and it's not like they've been rounding up children and giving them guns and marching them towards Gaddafi's troops. From what I can gather most of them are overeager teenagers who probably poo poo their pants and run away the second any fighting starts. So what, random people are allowed to use mines and child shields because they're random? If a war crime is a war crime when one side does it, it's one when the other does it, that's how these things work.
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Apr 21, 2011 09:02
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Jut posted:It's a reminder that we know very little about the rebels, and that we should be very careful before doing something stupid like giving them arms. Show me where someone besides an utter moron has suggested that we should be dropping free guns and ammo like confetti all over Cyrenaica. Nobody is arguing that giving the rebels weaponry or funding isn't a potentially dangerous action. What we're saying is that at the moment, if we actually want to do something about Qaddafi, then supplying arms to the rebels is the least bad of a series of options ranging from Not Good (supporting the rebels with arms shipments, limited military liaison operations, and airstrikes) to Potentially Godawful (sending in the Marines).
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Apr 21, 2011 09:05
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shotgunbadger posted:So what, random people are allowed to use mines and child shields because they're random? If a war crime is a war crime when one side does it, it's one when the other does it, that's how these things work. Hey cool, it's like you ignored my whole point about the order of magnitude that separates the current state of the rebel forces with Qaddafi when it comes to committing war crimes and being generally evil!
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Apr 21, 2011 09:07
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shotgunbadger posted:So what, random people are allowed to use mines and child shields because they're random? If a war crime is a war crime when one side does it, it's one when the other does it, that's how these things work. No, you've missed my point. Gaddafi is using an army of professional soldiers to commit a huge range of war crimes against civilian populations and a massive scale, while there's only isolated reports of rebels doing anything even remotely similar. If the rebels had spent the past month shelling civilians and using snipers to murder civilians in the streets of cities then I could agree with you, but they haven't. When those isolated incidents occur they should still be treated seriously, but to compare it to what Gaddafi's forces are doing and say they are just as bad is an incredibly crass comparision. There's also no evidence of "child shields" being used by rebels. Reports of child "soldiers" tend to teenagers who turned up with their dad and spends most their time at checkpoints, not frontline soldiers fighting Gaddafi troops in hand to hand combat.
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Apr 21, 2011 09:10
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Hey cool, it's like you ignored my whole point about the order of magnitude that separates the current state of the rebel forces with Qaddafi when it comes to committing war crimes and being generally evil! I never said it was exactly the same. I said when it's wrong for one side it's wrong for the other. You can't just handwave away 'well it's just a few people in a loose group' when it's something that before this we were all calling unforgivable evil.
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Apr 21, 2011 09:11
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shotgunbadger posted:I never said it was exactly the same. I said when it's wrong for one side it's wrong for the other. You can't just handwave away 'well it's just a few people in a loose group' when it's something that before this we were all calling unforgivable evil. I'm starting to think you didn't even read the actual article. There's a couple young teenagers with guns guarding some checkpoints. It's not a good thing and it's probably a war crime technically speaking, but jumping up and down and screaming that it's an "unforgivable evil" is loving stupid and there's almost no equivalence with what Qaddafi's been up to. Qaddafi has been shelling hospitals, shooting civilians with flak guns, and depopulating whole loving cities. If he's been letting teens loyal to his regime guard checkpoints it's really the least of his sins, quite frankly. Also, read and reply to Brown Moses's posts, please. He's saying the same things I am.
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Apr 21, 2011 09:20
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While in all cases those acts are wrong and and often illegal, the difference is in Gaddafi's case it's part of a wider strategy that the entire regime is responsible for, and in the case of the rebels it's not part of any strategy, so to condemn the entire rebel movement because of it is rather disingenous. The only real thing you could criticise the rebels for is using land mines, but seeing it could be the difference between Gaddafi troops slaughtering even more civilians or holding the frontline I'd like to think you could maybe understand why they are using them.
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Apr 21, 2011 09:21
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Brown Moses posted:No, you've missed my point. Gaddafi is using an army of professional soldiers to commit a huge range of war crimes against civilian populations and a massive scale, while there's only isolated reports of rebels doing anything even remotely similar. If the rebels had spent the past month shelling civilians and using snipers to murder civilians in the streets of cities then I could agree with you, but they haven't. When those isolated incidents occur they should still be treated seriously, but to compare it to what Gaddafi's forces are doing and say they are just as bad is an incredibly crass comparision. Libya is desert warfare, "front lines" are very fluid. Saying that they spend their times at checkpoints is fairly meaningless when that checkpoint could, in an hour, become a frontline. Anyway, the rebels' use of indiscriminate shelling is well documented. Ever since reporters started covering the rebellion, the misuse of mortars and rockets fired randomly has been regular. I would not be surprised if they killed far more civilians than Qaddafi soldiers at this point. The coverage is one-sided, though - there aren't any reporters embedded with Qaddafi's units to see the outcome of rebel shelling, but plenty of units are there to watch the result of Qaddafi's attacks. It's clear that child soldiers are not being used on a widespread basis, but the fact that we're starting to see them at all during this early stage of the war is a very bad sign. Acclimatizing people to the idea of child soldiers could lead to major war crimes down the road should the civil war continue as a "slow burn."
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Apr 21, 2011 09:22
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It's very unlikely the rebels have killed more people with their shelling then the regular army purely because they have so little firepower. Give them a few hundred pieces of heavy artillery and they would of course blast the poo poo of of any town where a pro-Gadaffy soldier was spotted.
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Apr 21, 2011 09:30
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With regards to child soldiers most recent reports have suggested that as the rebel military has become more organised they've stopped inexperienced and poorly armed soldiers from heading to the frontlines, which I'm going to assume includes 13 year olds boys. You've also got military advisors coming from the West to provide advice and training, so to me that doesn't suggest that the rebels are heading towards forcing children to tool up and head towards the frontlines. Maybe time will prove me wrong, but at the moment I don't think that's the way things are going.quote:I would not be surprised if they killed far more civilians than Qaddafi soldiers at this point. The rebels on the otherhand have been stuck between Brega and Adabiya, and all reports suggest civilians living between Benghazi and Sirte have fled. Brega and Ras Lanuf are pratically ghost towns according to all the reports I've read, because civilians have fled towards Benghazi to avoid the fighting.
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Apr 21, 2011 09:32
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Concerned Citizen posted:I would not be surprised if they killed far more civilians than Qaddafi soldiers at this point. Considering Qaddafi's apparently had at least one town depopulated en masse and has been shelling the gently caress out of Libya's third-largest city, I don't know how you could claim this with a straight face. Also, there's the whole issue of intent. When Qaddafi's men kill civilians it can be pretty safely assumed to be an intentional action. That's a far cry from accidental casualties from mortar and rocket fire. Hell, the Libyans seem to understand this well enough. Remember them saying, in essence, "oh well", when some of them were accidentally injured by U.S. forces trying to rescue a downed aircrew? quote:It's clear that child soldiers are not being used on a widespread basis, but the fact that we're starting to see them at all during this early stage of the war is a very bad sign. Acclimatizing people to the idea of child soldiers could lead to major war crimes down the road should the civil war continue as a "slow burn." It's quite possibly a very bad sign, yes, and to be honest that's just more reason to do what we can to ensure the less lovely side wins the day quickly.
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Apr 21, 2011 09:32
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Sorry for the ambiguity, but by "killed more civilians than Qaddafi soldiers," I meant that the rebels had killed more civilians with their shelling than they had managed to Qaddafi soldiers. I'm certain Qaddafi has killed more civilians than the rebels. I don't think the story of Qaddafi de-populating an entire town is true, though. I remember reading that many cases of Qaddafi supposedly going door to door and abducting all the young men actually just ended up being a case of people simply fleeing prior to Qaddafi's arrival. Concerned Citizen fucked around with this message at 09:38 on Apr 21, 2011 |
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Apr 21, 2011 09:36
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Well it's at least an arguable position I suppose. The civilians/soldiers thing, I mean.
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Apr 21, 2011 09:39
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As I said before, if you are talking about the rebels using artillery there's a few factors to consider when discussing civilian casualties caused by it: 1) The towns on the rebel front lines are pretty much entirely depopulated based on all reports I've read, with their citizens heading to Benghazi, 2) Those towns are made up of areas that are spread out, and low density, 3) There were reports that a lot of the random firing of weapons were the rebels showing off to camera crews, and they were firing into desert, 4) During the early days of the war the rebels claimed they were avoiding using those sorts of weapons on areas they believed had civilians. I think the key point is number one, especially as it's the one that is probably the mostly widely confirmed by Western journalists. If the rebels reach Sirte and start using artillery on populated areas then I'll be more than happy to heap criticism and condemnation on them, but to me it seems that they are only using them on areas where civilians have already fled.
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Apr 21, 2011 09:46
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Concerned Citizen posted:Sorry for the ambiguity, but by "killed more civilians than Qaddafi soldiers," I meant that the rebels had killed more civilians with their shelling than they had managed to Qaddafi soldiers. I'm certain Qaddafi has killed more civilians than the rebels. Ah, I misread that one. It's going to be hard to prove this is correct or not, I suspect it will depend on how many 'African mercenaries' were killed after those irresponsible and deeply racist twitter messages claiming atrocities carried out by Africans came up early in the conflict.
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Apr 21, 2011 09:53
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Live Blogs 21st April Guardian LibyaFeb17.com
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Apr 21, 2011 09:53
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quote:Reuters Two witnesses have said that revolutionaries have now taken control over the border crossing at Dhehiba. One of the witnesses said that there had been fierce clashes at the border since Tuesday evening. There's been a lot of fighting in that area over the past week, and it's close to Nalut which has also seen a lot of fierce fighting, and the usual Gaddafi tactic of surrounding the town and shelling it. It might be a chance for a lot of the civilian population to flee into Tunisia, so it'll hopefully save a lot of people.
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Apr 21, 2011 10:04
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Concerned Citizen posted:Libya is desert warfare No, no it isn't. It's urban warfare. Concerned Citizen posted:I would not be surprised if they killed far more civilians than Qaddafi soldiers at this point. You are a terrible poster. You have no evidence. There is much evidence to support that Gad has killed thousands of civilians. You should really think before you post absolute unsubstantiated poo poo so frequently. edit: I should say it's turned almost entirely into urban warfare since the NFZ, obviously. Lascivious Sloth fucked around with this message at 11:35 on Apr 21, 2011 |
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Apr 21, 2011 11:30
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Concerned Citizen clarified he meant he thought the rebels had killed more civilians than they've killed Gaddafi soldiers, not that they've killed more civilians then Gaddafi has. Combat in Libya is taking place in different areas, Misarata is full on urban combat; in the East they are fighting on open desert roads, and small spread out towns that provide few of the same advantages you would get from urban combat; and in the far west you have fighting occuring in more mountainous areas, where Gaddafi's troops are struggling.
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Apr 21, 2011 11:42
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