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some6uy008 posted:After watching a few segments on ESPN, can someone answer why the NFL doesn't like QBs coming from a spread offense? What are the pros and cons of it and why isn't it heavily used in the NFL like it is in college? In the NFL, or any passing system remotely based off a pro offense, the passing game will contain 3 major series. These are 3, 5 and 7 step passes (there's also the screen game, but that's a bit different.) There are very specific mechanics for the QB to follow after taking the snap and getting into his drop while properly setting his feet and throwing the ball. QB's who run a spread system in college very often do not take snaps under center, and very rarely uses the 3/5/7 footwork that is ubiquitous in the NFL. Footwork of course is a large component of accuracy and the ability of the QB to throw a good ball to his target. The spread offense also typically uses a hyper-simplified read/progression system. In some cases, pre-snap the QB will simply read the secondary to see if the middle is open or closed and take his post-snap action without really reading the post-snap defense. There's also more of a learning curve for a spread QB as opposed to a player who came from a pro-style system.
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Apr 7, 2011 22:15
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McKracken posted:In the NFL, or any passing system remotely based off a pro offense, the passing game will contain 3 major series. These are 3, 5 and 7 step passes (there's also the screen game, but that's a bit different.) There are very specific mechanics for the QB to follow after taking the snap and getting into his drop while properly setting his feet and throwing the ball. Going off this, I always see people bring up proper footwork and stuff like that and I've always wondered what this entailed. Can someone go into detail and maybe post some links to youtube or something that can show me good v. bad footwork.
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Apr 7, 2011 22:29
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BIGFOOT PEE BED posted:Who or what is an Elephant? Usually used to describe a hybrid DE/OLB who is comfortable playing with his hand down in a three point stance or in a tradition LB two point stance. The position was invented for Charles Haley as a 49er. some6uy008 posted:Also, they keep talking about "foot work" what are they referring to, I thought that only matters if a QB has to scramble? In any kind of throwing, whether it's a football or a baseball or something else, the placement of your feet and your weight transfer determines in large part where the ball is going and how hard it is going. This is coming up a lot now because Cam Newton's footwork blows to a degree rarely seen in serious pro prospects, and Blaine Gabbert's isn't exactly awesome either. nnnAdam posted:Going off this, I always see people bring up proper footwork and stuff like that and I've always wondered what this entailed. Can someone go into detail and maybe post some links to youtube or something that can show me good v. bad footwork. I'll see what I can come up with, but in general these types of coaching tools and tapes cost some money and wouldn't be on Youtube. oldfan fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Apr 7, 2011 |
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Apr 7, 2011 22:30
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jeffersonlives posted:I'll see what I can come up with, but in general these types of coaching tools and tapes cost some money and wouldn't be on Youtube. Not even so much coaching tapes, but maybe just quarterback highlight videos perhaps and what I should look for would be awesome. I know you know your stuff incredibly well so anything you can provide would be awesome.
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Apr 7, 2011 22:33
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jeffersonlives posted:Usually used to describe a hybrid DE/OLB who is comfortable playing with his hand down in a three point stance or in a tradition LB two point stance. The position was invented for Charles Haley as a 49er. What current NFL players fit this? DeMarcus Ware, right? Maybe Terrell Suggs? Is Aldon Smith a prototypical Elephant?
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Apr 7, 2011 22:50
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Pron on VHS posted:What current NFL players fit this? DeMarcus Ware, right? Maybe Terrell Suggs? Is Aldon Smith a prototypical Elephant? Ware and Jason Taylor would be the two off the top of my head. There's not a ton of guys who are super-comfortable rushing from both stances. I'm working on a big effortpost about footwork.
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Apr 7, 2011 23:02
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nnnAdam posted:Not even so much coaching tapes, but maybe just quarterback highlight videos perhaps and what I should look for would be awesome. I know you know your stuff incredibly well so anything you can provide would be awesome. The first tape we'll look at is a Tom Brady game cutup. In general, Tom Brady has some of the best footwork in the league. All but three throws here in this Bills game have the same general properties, no matter what the drop is or whether he's in the the gun or under center. (The Patriots mostly do three step out of the gun, but not entirely, and this tape has a little of everything.) Brady takes nice even steps in his drops, stays on the balls of his feet, slides around in the pocket without look harried or hassled, plants his feet in the direction the ball is going, steps into his throw, and has a smooth, balanced weight transfer. Everything is textbook and Tom Brady is the guy quarterback coaches show their young quarterbacks for this. There are exactly three throws with imperfect footwork in this tape: At 0:57, Brady drops back for a HB screen left. As McKracken already noted, screen footwork is different than your typical drop footwork. The LG doesn't hold his block long enough, Brady is pressured a half-second earlier than he should have been, and ends up throwing badly off-balance with his feet pointing towards the left sideline on a throw that should have been at about a 45 degree angle to the left. The throw ends up being way underthrown and way off target towards the sidelines, and the RDE makes a great play to intercept it. Not really Brady's fault. At 1:18, Brady takes a three step out of the gun. Randy Moss ends up uncovered running a drag route because the Patriots ran one of their patented (and illegal) downfield screens that never get called. Brady throws the ball before he's even out of his drop for a big gain. This is bad footwork in a good way; all he has to do is get the ball in Moss's vicinity here and you've got a big play. At 2:41, the Patriots have a two point conversion attempt. Brady takes a three step out of the gun. The Patriots run another downfield screen that leaves Moss open on what was either a flag or deep out (tough to tell from the camera). Brady starts scrambling under light pressure, doesn't set his feet, and throws off his back foot. The ball ends up way underthrown and intercepted. Brady makes only a couple bad throws on non-screens like this per season, just so happened I managed to find a cutup that included one. Here's another Brady film, not a full game cut but about ten throws. Every throw here is perfect or almost perfect, just the picture of what you'd want the ideal quarterback to look like from the torso down. You can look at almost any Brady game film for this purpose. Aaron Rodgers is another guy who has good footwork, not quite as textbook perfect but he's brilliant moving around in the pocket while still staying in a good throwing position. Now for some bad footwork. Jay Cutler is a good example of a quarterback who is limited by inconsistent footwork. Here's a highlight film of Cutler against the Vikings - so remember, these are just the major throws. Cutler sometimes backpedals out of the snap instead of taking a good drop. More importantly, he throws off his back foot way way way more than is advisable. Despite this, he does usually (although not always) end up with his feet in the right position, he stays up on his feet well, and he has a big enough arm to power through some throws that are ugly in his legs. But if you wonder why he throws so many drat interceptions, a large part of it is because his mechanics are inconsistent as all hell. When Cutler does set and steps into it, he looks like one of the greatest quarterbacks of all-time - the throws at 1:07 and 3:55 are just phenomenal with great mechanics, throws only a couple guys in the league can make. Eli Manning is another guy that looks like a superstar one minute and then the next second you see him throw off his back foot and sail it by 15 yards, but I couldn't find a good video pointing this out. Alex Smith is a similar guy with inconsistent footwork; again, tough to find a video showing this. Not surprisingly, there aren't a lot of negative highlight tapes - or any highlights of non-stars - floating around out there. So now we get to horrible footwork. Here's the picture of exactly what you don't want a quarterback to look like: a phenomenal camera shot of Cam Newton making a few throws at the combine. When I say Cutler or Eli have bad or inconsistent footwork, well, Cam Newton would have to make unprecedented strides to get to their level. His drop steps are choppy, not smooth. His feet are pointing in a different direction than his arm is going; if you isolated his lower body you'd think he was throwing a deep post instead of a deep post corner. His weight transfer is just terrible, he's off his back foot in a situation where there's no pressure or movement which is just inexcusable. In a related note, he isn't stepping into the throw at all. He's much more flat-footed than you'd like everywhere. This is a quarterback whose natural throwing footwork is going to lead him to be horrible at the pro level. Can that be fixed? That's the $64 million question. Some more bad Cam: Here's Cam's pro day workout at Auburn. It's not as good of an angle, but you've got pretty much the same issues - feet aren't in the right position, weight transfer is inconsistent at best, steps are all over the place, throwing off his back foot constantly in a non-pressured situation. Notice that his trainers tried to hide this by scripting a lot of running throws and a lot of easy throws, but a good scout isn't going to be fooled. A lot of people said he was improved; that's true, he improved from Pop Warner to high school JV, and the level to which he was better had a lot more to do with scripting the workout to his strengths. And remember, Cam's got one year in a D1 spread option and one year in a JuCo pistol; these workout tapes are all we have of him in a pro style scheme and frankly they scream "developmental third QB/practice squad." If you look at his Auburn highlight films or his Blinn highlight films, you get almost nothing useful past that he's athletic guy with great arm and happy feet, because it's a spread option and essentially every throw isn't a NFL throw. Even watching those you still pick up his terrible weight transfer and inability to set properly with feet pointing everywhere but where they're supposed to. oldfan fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Apr 8, 2011 |
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Apr 8, 2011 00:16
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Jefferson, the link to Newton's combine workout is the Brady week 12 cut. Fantastic write-up. I think a lot of people latch on to throwing mechanics as far as the arm motion goes because it's one of the most obvious and iconic actions of the game, and it's usually what will be mentioned during broadcasts. As a result, the importance of footwork is usually mitigated or ignored, and it's not something anyone who isn't specifically watching for it will notice. The only time you ever really hear about footwork is during the pre-draft evaluations from guys like Kiper or McShay, and even then it's usually just a superficial mention of "not great footwork" without an actual analysis of what or why. Mayock is the only guy I've ever seen elaborate on his opinions in the realm of footwork or throwing mechanics.
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Apr 8, 2011 01:23
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Awesome write up JeffersonLives I appreciate it.
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Apr 8, 2011 01:24
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McKracken posted:Jefferson, the link to Newton's combine workout is the Brady week 12 cut. Welp I fixed that but in case anyone missed it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQkluYNrPvM
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Apr 8, 2011 01:28
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In relation to your comment that he isn't stepping into his throws, I've yet to see him follow through on the release and I'm 5 minutes into the pro day video. Although so far 75% of his throws have been rollouts.
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Apr 8, 2011 01:37
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jeffersonlives: I'm a big niner fan, and have been watching, but based on all the stuff you have pointed out, but have not been paying attention. What are some of Smith's major weaknesses that has caused him to do so poorly year after year? Also, why is everyone going crazy for Kolb? Does he have all the making of a great QB or something?
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Apr 8, 2011 02:18
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some6uy008 posted:jeffersonlives: I'm a big niner fan, and have been watching, but based on all the stuff you have pointed out, but have not been paying attention. What are some of Smith's major weaknesses that has caused him to do so poorly year after year? Alex Smith was one of the first spread option players turned major pro QB prospect. From what I have seen of Smith's recent play, he has the typical problems for former option quarterbacks of poor, inconsistent drops and inability to set himself very well for what I'd call the typical NFL throws, your standing in the pocket slants and outs and posts and such. I did study a fair bit of Utah tape back in the day because everyone was copying Urban's offense and I don't remember Smith as being nearly as sloppy in college as Newton was in college or has shown in his workouts, but this was some years ago so it may have just faded. At the time nobody had really discerned what a big problem converting spread option guys - and there's a difference that sometimes gets missed between option quarterbacks and just regular spread guys in terms of footwork - to pros was going to be. And hell, with Newton all of a sudden the probable 1-1 maybe some people still haven't. I'll let someone else take Kolb. I think he has the makings of a good quarterback but I don't think he's worth a first.
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Apr 8, 2011 03:33
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some6uy008 posted:What are the pros and cons of it and why isn't it heavily used in the NFL like it is in college? Spread offense basically exploits the fact that 11 college dudes can't cover a 50 yard wide field. Professional players are fast enough to be able to.
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Apr 10, 2011 18:11
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Can somebody explain to me the basic differences between the divisions in college football? Which are considered to have the higher talent? Is it anything like baseball where AAA is the peak, and if so, where do the BCS and NAIA fit into this?
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Apr 14, 2011 22:54
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Quiet Feet posted:Can somebody explain to me the basic differences between the divisions in college football? Which are considered to have the higher talent? Is it anything like baseball where AAA is the peak, and if so, where do the BCS and NAIA fit into this? I'm pretty sure there might be a much more detailed post covering this in the OP, but anyway here goes: There are 3 NCAA divisions. Division 3 is non-scholarship and the least competitive, although there are some schools like Mount Union that are annual powerhouses and could probably compete with some D-2 programs. Many D-3 schools are small liberal arts colleges. Division 2 schools have 36 full scholarships to award annually. The talent is higher, many players at this division might have D-1 measurables in some areas but have some form of deficiency that makes them unappealing to bigger programs. An example of this would be a running back with 4.4 speed and great lateral quickness, but is only 5'5 and 155 pounds. Division 1 is comprised of 2 subdivisions. What was formerly D-1A is now known as FBS (bowl subdivison) and 1-AA is now FCS (championship subdivision.) This is where probably 97% of future NFL players come from (I just made that number up, but it is exceedingly rare for a D-2 or D-3 player to get invited to camp, let alone make a roster, let alone have more than a few game career.) FBS is the most competitive level, which all of the famous, bigtime programs such as Michigan, Texas, Florida etc belong to. FBS has 85 full scholarships to award annually. The BCS is the format currently used to determine the national champion at the FBS level, and I'm pretty sure Gendo or someone put together a really good post that fully covers this aspect of NCAA in the OP. This is basically where all the top level talent is. FCS schools only have 63 scholarships to award yearly, and they compete in a tournament to determine the champion (as do D-2 and D-3 schools.) The talent at FCS schools is lower than FBS schools on the whole, but this is widely variable dependent on the particular conference. What was formerly the Atlantic 10 conference, and now the CAA, is composed of schools (Delaware, Umass, Richmond etc) which routinely send players to the NFL. Many of these players are only ever special teamers or career backups, but if you consult your favorite teams roster you will probably find at least 1-3 starters who came from FCS schools and the odds are good they came from a CAA school, like Joe Flacco (UDel) or Marques Colston (Hofstra).
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Apr 15, 2011 00:01
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McKracken posted:Division 3 is non-scholarship and the least competitive, although there are some schools like Mount Union that are annual powerhouses and could probably compete with some D-2 programs. Many D-3 schools are small liberal arts colleges. To clarify, D3 schools can still give scholarships, they're just  academic scholarships , and I'm not sure how tightly monitored they are or how strict of standards they have to adhere to.
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Apr 15, 2011 01:21
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No Safe Word posted:To clarify, D3 schools can still give scholarships, they're just Usually through grants more than scholarships. There's always ways to get a guy in, same way D2s get a lot more than 36 scholarship level guys. I think there's also a lot less of a separation between D2 and D3 largely because of this, which is something that bears out to a degree in the head-to-heads.
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Apr 15, 2011 03:30
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No Safe Word posted:To clarify, D3 schools can still give scholarships, they're just University of New England is under investigation for getting hockey players on "diversity scholarships": http://www.pressherald.com/news/ncaa-probes-athletes-financial-aid_2011-03-27.html
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Apr 15, 2011 03:43
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Loopholes, the cornerstones of America
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Apr 15, 2011 08:59
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tk posted:University of New England is under investigation for getting hockey players on "diversity scholarships": http://www.pressherald.com/news/ncaa-probes-athletes-financial-aid_2011-03-27.html Of all the sports I would expect players to be on "diversity scholarships", hockey would be dead last.
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Apr 18, 2011 21:19
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Dominion posted:Of all the sports I would expect players to be on "diversity scholarships", hockey would be dead last. Swedes, Finnish, Russians, and so on are...technically diverse yes.
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Apr 19, 2011 02:23
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edit: whoops wrong thread
TLG James fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Apr 29, 2011 |
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Apr 29, 2011 01:39
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edit: nevermind
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Apr 30, 2011 04:36
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I don't know if this is actually a Real Thing or not, but I have heard over the last few years, that Peyton Manning really really struggles against 3-4 defenses. I've heard that (especially during Pats/Colts and Chargers/Colts games), but I've never really understood why. Peyton is as good at surveying a defense and identifying where the pressure is coming from better than anyone I've ever seen. Why is it that he struggles against 3-4 base defenses?
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May 4, 2011 21:37
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SteelAngel2000 posted:I don't know if this is actually a Real Thing or not, but I have heard over the last few years, that Peyton Manning really really struggles against 3-4 defenses. I've heard that (especially during Pats/Colts and Chargers/Colts games), but I've never really understood why. Peyton is as good at surveying a defense and identifying where the pressure is coming from better than anyone I've ever seen. Why is it that he struggles against 3-4 base defenses? For the past few years it seems like most of the best defenses in the AFC run a 3-4. He plays New England, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, the Jets, and I guess San Diego has a decent defense sometimes too. I don't think he's struggling against 3-4 defenses so much as he's struggling against good defenses, which is reasonable even for Manning. He hasn't really struggled to beat the bad 3-4 defenses because they're bad defenses, I don't think the scheme is a thing.
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May 5, 2011 00:46
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SteelAngel2000 posted:I don't know if this is actually a Real Thing or not, but I have heard over the last few years, that Peyton Manning really really struggles against 3-4 defenses. I've heard that (especially during Pats/Colts and Chargers/Colts games), but I've never really understood why. Peyton is as good at surveying a defense and identifying where the pressure is coming from better than anyone I've ever seen. Why is it that he struggles against 3-4 base defenses? Houston ran a 3-4 for the first several years and he was like 8-0 during those years. Just as a counterpoint.
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May 5, 2011 01:27
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Also outside of that 2006 playoff game he torches the ravens regularly. That defense just happened to be nearly as good as the 2000 ravens so that helped. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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May 5, 2011 01:34
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Wollawolla posted:For the past few years it seems like most of the best defenses in the AFC run a 3-4. He plays New England, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, the Jets, and I guess San Diego has a decent defense sometimes too. I don't think he's struggling against 3-4 defenses so much as he's struggling against good defenses, which is reasonable even for Manning. He hasn't really struggled to beat the bad 3-4 defenses because they're bad defenses, I don't think the scheme is a thing. Yeah, there's nothing magical about a 3-4 defense that makes it more difficult to throw against. Many of the better teams in the AFC just happen to use that as their base system.
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May 5, 2011 01:50
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He's also struggled against the Browns and Chiefs when their defenses were nothing special. What I'm saying is that Romeo is magic
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May 5, 2011 15:51
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More anecdotal evidence: the Colts have lost to the Cowboys the last two times they've played each other, and the Cowboys (ostensibly) run a 3-4. Peyton also threw a pick 6 to a linebacker in each game.
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May 6, 2011 03:58
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Tad Ghostal posted:More anecdotal evidence: the Colts have lost to the Cowboys the last two times they've played each other, and the Cowboys (ostensibly) run a 3-4. Peyton also threw a pick 6 to a linebacker in each game. The Dallas 3-4 is the least like a 3-4 of any "3-4" defense in the league, though.
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May 6, 2011 13:27
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Following and after the draft, I keep reading DE moving to OLB and adjusting from a 3point stance to 2 point. There is that much of a different and is there an advantage of 3stance vs 2point stance?
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May 6, 2011 19:17
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some6uy008 posted:Following and after the draft, I keep reading DE moving to OLB and adjusting from a 3point stance to 2 point. There is that much of a different and is there an advantage of 3stance vs 2point stance? It's not the stance so much as where you stand. 3-point stance means you're right on the line, usually facing a lineman, need to use different techniques to rush the passer, are responsible for a gap and have some run-stopping jobs, etc. If you're a stand-up LB, you get a bigger run-up, are often blocked by a RB or a TE, and may have to drop into coverage sometimes. A lot of 3-4 OLBs will vary their position and stance on a play by play basis, taking advantage of the holes they see in the blocking schemes, etc. That role is where the "3-4 is better for blitzing" generality comes from.
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May 6, 2011 19:21
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some6uy008 posted:Following and after the draft, I keep reading DE moving to OLB and adjusting from a 3point stance to 2 point. There is that much of a different and is there an advantage of 3stance vs 2point stance? The difference isn't so much in the stance, as the way in which the player is utilized and the corresponding difference in technique, fundamentals and ability needed to play well in that role. A 4-3 DE is going to be playing a 5 or 7 tech 95% of the time. His specific responsibilities will differ depending on the DC, but generally he's a run stopper keeping contain and directing flow to the LB's, and the outside pass rush where he will get upfield to the QB's outside leg. A 3-4 OLB has a much more varied set of responsibilities which will usually contain some degree of coverage, varying with ability. He won't always line up on the LOS, so he won't be playing the typical DL techniques, he will have to blitz and cover TE's and backs. He'll have more responsibilities to read the formation and offensive alignments. A lot of defensive linemen don't have the fluidity in their hips that coaches like to see from LB's, and even the players that do have the ability to switch position need time to transition to their expanded roles, particularly in pass coverage. Rushing from a 2 point stance isn't always the same as rushing from a 3 point stance, especially if an OLB is lined up in a ghost technique outside a 4 or 5 tech DE. A good tackle will realize he has inside leverage against an edge rusher from anything outside a 5 tech and kick step infinitely if the rusher is determined to go around his outside. The OLB will have to have a quick enough first step to beat the OT to the outside with pure speed, or throw his balance with a stutter step and than quickly post to the inside while the OT is recovering from his commitment to kick out.
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May 6, 2011 19:49
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Follow up question: In general, are DE and OLB similar in stats and speed, if so is that why DE are sometimes asked to play OLB instead of the DT? Assuming the above is true, how do you guys speculate Mario William will do at OLB (read this is what the Texan are planning on doing)?
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May 7, 2011 00:46
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some6uy008 posted:Follow up question: Even speaking to generalities, there is a fair amount of variety between body types and athletic ability at each position that it's hard to give any sort of universal rule, even a vague one. Some college players who play DE might convert to a DT or NT in the pros, some might play a 7 tech 4-3 DE and some might play a 5 tech 3-4 DE. All DE's are not necessarily similar in size, speed and ability to 3-4 OLB's, but a subgroup of DE prospects which meet a GM's criteria to play OLB will assuredly be scouted to see if they'd transition well to that position. I haven't seen Williams play enough (only see the Texans when they play the Jets or during primetime) to make any accurate predictions, although he certainly does have the size and speed to be an elephant OLB.
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May 8, 2011 17:43
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I remember reading that there is a baseball website that requires a subscription to have access to a huge array of job postings for all the different levels of baseball. I guess like a monster.com but for baseball only. Is there something like this for football? And if so, what is it? I'd like to make a subscription to this part of my brother's college graduation present for those curious (who would be?). Thanks.
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May 9, 2011 01:25
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Totally TWISTED posted:I remember reading that there is a baseball website that requires a subscription to have access to a huge array of job postings for all the different levels of baseball. I guess like a monster.com but for baseball only. The only baseball website I know of that requires a subscription is Baseball Prospectus, and while I'm not a member, so I'm not 100% sure, I think that is 100% for stats, news and articles related to such...although if I'm wrong I'm sure the SAS baseball fans can correct me. I've never heard of a website that aggregates NFL job listings. Do you mean for the business side of things, like PR, IT, marketing etc, or a front office/coaching position?
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May 9, 2011 05:16
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McKracken posted:The only baseball website I know of that requires a subscription is Baseball Prospectus, and while I'm not a member, so I'm not 100% sure, I think that is 100% for stats, news and articles related to such...although if I'm wrong I'm sure the SAS baseball fans can correct me. I think he's talking about PBEO. There's not exactly a per se football equivalent AFAIK; NFL jobs are on Teamwork, NCAA jobs are on the NCAA site, and everything else is hit and miss.
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May 9, 2011 05:20
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