Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Wafflecopper: Nov 27, 2004; I am a mouth, and I must scream

Brown Moses posted:

Here's a more detailed article about the airport capture from the NYT.

From that article:

quote:

Rebels were also looting the terminals� few office buildings, though after the airport had served as a Qaddafi military position for almost two months, there seemed to be little to steal. A few groups of rebels departed with their pick-up trucks stacked with little more than dingy office chairs.

To be used as mobile anti-aircraft platforms no doubt. Perhaps these chairs are the captured equipment referred to in the Twitter reports.

# ? May 11, 2011 21:34

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# ? May 16, 2024 09:07

Chronojam: Feb 20, 2006; This is me on vacation in Amsterdam
Never be afraid of being yourself!

A Winner is Jew posted:

C-130's full of aid supplies?

Don't think NATO would shoot down their own poo poo... intentionally.

Right. They keep having delays with shipping in supplies, it sounds like. It can be difficult to secure the port, there were the mines and fires, and then verification of who's got what on their boat. It sounds like it would be a lot easier and a lot faster to fly in military cargo aircraft full of supplies, and also easier to fly out anybody that had to leave instead of waiting on ships.

# ? May 11, 2011 21:55

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Well there's this too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2imnqC9vdnw&feature=share

Some pictures of mobile rocket launchers presumably captured. I cant verify it's from the airport, but it's clear from the terrain around them as the jury rigged combat vehicle convoy drives off they're out of the city.

Chronojam posted:

Right. They keep having delays with shipping in supplies, it sounds like. It can be difficult to secure the port, there were the mines and fires, and then verification of who's got what on their boat. It sounds like it would be a lot easier and a lot faster to fly in military cargo aircraft full of supplies, and also easier to fly out anybody that had to leave instead of waiting on ships.

The airport is a hell of a lot more exposed than the port. There's no reason it would be any easier to bring in supplies through the airport and several reasons it would be harder, beginning with sheer capacity.

# ? May 11, 2011 21:56

CeeJee: Dec 4, 2001; Oven Wrangler

farraday posted:

Well there's this too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2imnqC9vdnw&feature=share

Some pictures of mobile rocket launchers presumably captured. I cant verify it's from the airport, but it's clear from the terrain around them as the jury rigged combat vehicle convoy drives off they're out of the city.

Those big rockets at 0:13 are SA-3 anti air missiles on transport trucks. They can't be fired from the trucks but are loaded onto an actual launcher from them.

# ? May 11, 2011 22:03

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

farraday posted:

Well there's this too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2imnqC9vdnw&feature=share

Some pictures of mobile rocket launchers presumably captured. I cant verify it's from the airport, but it's clear from the terrain around them as the jury rigged combat vehicle convoy drives off they're out of the city.

At 1:00, there's a tarted-up white truck with flame racing stripes. I just about laughed one I saw that.

Also, that's a poo poo-load of ammo in the back of that one truck.

farraday posted:

The airport is a hell of a lot more exposed than the port. There's no reason it would be any easier to bring in supplies through the airport and several reasons it would be harder, beginning with sheer capacity.

A good thing about this is the airport is the largest open area inside Misarata. If they can't land planes there, then they can at least conduct airdrops there. The reason they couldn't airdrop supplies before is that there was not enough open space for parachuting pallets to land.

# ? May 11, 2011 22:12

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Few more videos:
Video of captured stuff
https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=114550425297566
https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150243480188799

Families who were stuck in the airport and surrounding area:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wj6nh_JYtS8&feature=share

As I said earlier, I think for the airport to be safe they'd need to secure a 25km area around the airport to stop anything flying in being shot down by Gaddafi's longest range mobile AA missiles.

# ? May 11, 2011 22:21

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

Brown Moses posted:

Few more videos:
Video of captured stuff
https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=114550425297566
https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150243480188799

If you want to know what they've got in the first video, they're Type 63 107mm artillery rockets.

And, in the second video, that's a shitload of ammunition. That's a real boon there, especially if there's small arms ammunition and what not.

Also, that shot of the boots reminds me of the D-Day film, The Longest Day, which has the repeated image of a German officer who has his boots on so quickly he doesn't realize they're on the wrong feet, all because of the quickness and surprise of the Allied invasion.

The rebels moved so fast out from Misarata that the Qaddafi forces left behind even their boots.

# ? May 11, 2011 22:34

Mr. Sunshine: May 15, 2008; This is a scrunt that has been in space too long and become a Lunt (Long Scrunt); Fun Shoe

Young Freud posted:

The rebels moved so fast out from Misarata that the Qaddafi forces left behind even their boots.

Seriously, what's with that? I've seen loads of pictures from across the middle east, either from abandoned battlefields or sites of stampedes, where people have left their shoes and boots behind.

# ? May 11, 2011 23:24

Greve: Nov 7, 2007; Theory Genesis

Mr. Sunshine posted:

Seriously, what's with that? I've seen loads of pictures from across the middle east, either from abandoned battlefields or sites of stampedes, where people have left their shoes and boots behind.

Perhaps they were in the middle of prayer? Other than that I can only imagine the soldiers are not defensive battle ready and are completely oblivious to what is actually happening on the ground.

# ? May 11, 2011 23:39

Chade Johnson: Oct 12, 2009; by Ozmaugh

The-Mole posted:

This is either from Libya or your average Middle Eastern wedding celebration.

[Edit: It's actually from Gaza apparently]

That's a picture of Israeli war crimes in Gaza where they bombed civilian targets with white phosphorous.

# ? May 12, 2011 03:16

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

That was already covered on the last page doofus.

quote:

2:16am Libya's consul in Cairo told Al Arabiya television in remarks aired on Thursday that he was quitting his post to join rebel ranks.
"In response to the souls and blood of the martyrs of the February 17 revolution, I, Faraj Saeed al-Aribi, the Libyan consul in Cairo, declare my resignation and my joining of the February 17 revolution," al-Aribi told the television channel.

quote:

2:04am Libyan state TV showed footage of an apparently healthy Muammar Gaddafi meeting officials in a Tripoli hotel on Wednesday, ending nearly two weeks of doubt over his fate since a NATO air strike killed his son.
Gaddafi, who had not appeared in public since the April 30 strike on his Bab al-Aziziyah compound killed his youngest son and three of his grandchildren, appeared in his trademark brown robe, dark sunglasses and black hat.
"We tell the world: 'those are the representatives of the Libyan tribes,'" Gaddafi said as he pointed to his visitors and then named a few of them.

# ? May 12, 2011 04:12

Cable Guy: Jul 18, 2005; I don't expect any trouble, but we'll be handing these out later...; Slippery Tilde

Reuters article about Gadaffi's reappearance

quote:

A screen behind Gaddafi showed a morning chat show on state al-Jamahirya television. A zoom-in on the screen showed Wednesday's date displayed in the corner.

How convenient.

# ? May 12, 2011 05:29

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

May 12th Live Blogs
AJE
LibyaFeb17.com
Feb17.info

I've been reading that the rebels in the Nafusa region are starting to adopt the same tactics as the rebels in Misrata, basically blocking off roads with tonnes of sand and rubble, and working to encircle Gaddafi troops.
Nafusa is pretty much all mountains, so blocking a road like that makes it impossible for vehicles to pass, and if you are unable to defend a road it's a great way to stop it being used to reinforce and resupply your enemy.
The advantage that the Misrata rebels and Nafusa rebels have is they've had to learn to rely on infantry, and they have great local knowledge, so they understand how to move about the local terrain and what roads to block to cause the maximum problems, and they also don't have to rely on vehicles, so blocking roads don't cause them any issues.

The problem is know this tactic will become much less effective as the rebels head out towards Zliten, which seems to be the Misrata rebels major target at the moment.
They've apparently set up a command post and base in a small coastal town Zurayqi, which is connected to the main highway to Zliten by a 3-4km road, and is about 20km from the centre of Misrata.
That main highway is about 25km of what appears to be farms, with lots of small side roads running off the side of the main highway. That's obviously different terrain from what the rebels are used to fighting in, and I've already read reports of Gaddafi snipers causing problems. On the other hand the last two months of fighting in Misrata has produced a lot of battle hardened rebels fighters who unlike the Benghazi rebels are unlikely to retreat 50km the first time a bullet flys past their head. They've also captured a large amount of equipment from fleeing Gaddafi troops, including rocket artillery, sniper rifles, and other long range weapons they can use fairly freely in open ground. Whether or not they know how to do that is a different question.

Something else that's been interesting over the past couple of days is that NATO seems to be hitting Tripoli during the day as well as the night, something they hadn't been doing before. After losing Misrata airport, and now being bombed constantly I don't imagine the Gaddafi regime and it's supporters are feeling particulary confident.

Losing Misrata Airport has to be a massive blow to Gaddafi's supporters, especially as the rebels are now in control of pretty much all of Misrata, and Gaddafi's forces seem totally unable to make any gains there. It does make the various articles and statements I've read saying the conflict is in a stalemate seem rather idiotic. The question is now can the rebels reach Zliten, and will they be joined by more rebels once they reach it?

# ? May 12, 2011 09:48

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

This is a excellent and long article of a journalists two weeks with the rebels, worth a read if you are interested on what it's like on the ground. Here's a few edited highlights:

quote:

One Grad victim arrived in the back of a blue sedan. Both his legs had been blown off at the knee. A crimson stream of blood trailed on to the tarmac as he was carried into the tent. Within a few minutes he was wheeled out, covered by a blanket.

quote:

His expression changed little, even when a grimacing man in his mid-twenties was rushed in. The man's face was blackened by smoke and his eyes were white and wide with pain and terror. His filthy khaki pants were bloodstained and torn. His forearms were shredded. He was a tank driver. The thowar did not have tanks.

His first request was for a lethal injection, because he was convinced that he would be tortured or beaten for fighting for Gaddafi. Alkesa politely said no, assuring him that he would be looked after. He cleaned the man's leg and groin wounds and sewed up the strips of flesh on his arms. The tank driver said he was from Tripoli, and that his commanders had told him that Misurata was under the control of foreign-ers and terrorists who had been destroying mosques. He said he felt he had been cheated, and was sorry.

quote:

At the media centre, I met a 23-year-old man whom I'll call Ahmed Ali. He worked in the graphic arts and he spoke good English. He was one of Misurata's first revolutionaries. He told me that, on 17 February, he and a few dozen other young men, most of them in their early twenties, held a demonstration in support of the people of Benghazi.

They were arrested by the security forces, who beat them before hauling them away. "During interrogation they showed us our Facebook pages, where we had been talking about plans for a protest. They had been watching us even before," Ali told me.

quote:

The first martyr of the revolution, Khalid Boshahma, was shot dead. For his funeral the next day, tens of thousands of people turned out in the city centre. Tear gas was used. Snipers who had been positioned in nearby buildings began firing in the air. People in the crowd started hugging each other, believing the army had taken their side by refusing to shoot at them. But then the snipers started picking people off. Dozens were shot in the head or chest. None of the protesters had guns - keeping a weapon was prohibited in Libya under Gaddafi - but their rage was enough to shake the army. As demonstrators began setting fire to buildings associated with the regime, state security hastily left Misurata, perhaps having been ordered to, or maybe out of fear. Tension was mounting in Tripoli, and so the government was unable to spare troops to mount a counterattack for two weeks. For many people in Misurata, it was the best fortnight of their lives, Ali told me. But they knew Gaddafi would be back.

Under the guidance of a hastily assembled judicial council, the people of Misurata prepared to defend their city. By looting the local armoury, they had acquired some AK-47s and grenade launchers but most of their weapons were home-made. Young men were instructed to prepare thousands of Molotov cocktails as well as fist-sized bombs known as gelatina, made from TNT.

When Gaddafi's forces finally attacked on 6 March, they met no resistance and were allowed to drive into Tripoli Street, the main boulevard, a few miles long, with its smart shops, coffee houses, banks and office blocks. Then, when the order came, hundreds of young men positioned on the rooftops along the street started hurling their bombs. The thowar joined in with their light weapons. Taken by surprise, the loyalist forces battled for four hours to fight their way forward, but could not. Many of Gaddafi's soldiers were killed, and the survivors were driven back to the edge of the city.

quote:

There were thowar checkpoints every few hundred metres, reinforced with huge berms of sand brought from the beach, or large pieces of concrete pipe. At one roadblock, twisted remnants of missiles and shells fired by Gaddafi's soldiers into Misurata had been placed on top of one pipe. Next to it, with an arrow pointing towards the display, was a sign that read, "These are his weapons." Poking out of the pipe was a rake and spade: "These are our weapons."

quote:

Closer to the city centre, the tactics used by the thowar in the guerrilla war became evident. Giant shipping containers filled with wet sand and metal filings had been used to block off streets to prevent armoured columns getting through. Petrol-soaked blankets lay on the road, thrown there in the hope they would get caught in the tanks' tracks, allowing a Molotov cocktail or rocket-propelled grenade to set one of them on fire.

quote:

Ordinary people in Misurata, who in January could barely tell the difference between a gunshot and a car backfiring, were - in their own minds at least - aural experts on heavy weapons.

Boom. "That's a Grad." Bang. "That's a mortar." Boom. "A tank shell."

Bang. "Katyusha rocket." Boom. "Nato must be bombing again."

quote:

At the hospital, I saw a ten-year-old boy who had been shot in the head while stepping outside to play with his friends. Such was the fear of snipers that some people had been too terrified to risk fleeing the city centre when the snipers came in. These included 101 orphans housed close to Tripoli Street. After huddling together in the basement of their orphanage for weeks, they had nearly run out of food. The power and water had been cut.

Selima al-Teer was one of two social workers trapped with the children. "My colleague and I were so afraid of snipers, but we decided we had to run to try and find food," she told me. "We took a hammer, ran about 500 metres to a supply store, and broke the door down. We put food in a wheelbarrow and ran back to the orphanage."

They made the journey three times. �Each time we just said to each other: 'May God help us,' and then ran," she said. Eventually, with the help of the thowar, all the children escaped and found refuge in a Quranic school in a safer suburb of the city.

quote:

As the days passed, it was clear that the thowar were gaining the upper hand on the snipers. By blocking the streets, they had managed to cut Gaddafi's resupply lines and began clearing buildings along Tripoli Street one by one. To identify the snipers' hideouts, the revolutionaries crept along side roads and then held out small pieces of mirror to look up the street, examining the reflection for the tell-tale puff of smoke whenever a shot was fired. Then they attacked the buildings with their Kalashni�kovs, heavy machine-guns and RPGs. Finally, they sent fighters into the buildings. They worked through the floors, sometimes tossing burning tyres into rooms to smoke out the last of the snipers.

quote:

Inside the hospital, while trying to ascertain the day's casualty figures, I bumped into Suleiman Ibrahim, a prominent businessman in Misurata who had been helping out around the hospital for weeks with Haythem, his younger brother. Haythem had left for Malta that morning on a boat - one of the very few able to enter the harbour in days - to sort out business in China. The men's two younger brothers, twins in their early twenties, were both working for the hospital, one as an ambulance paramedic, the other as a doctor. "This war is disastrous. Misurata has paid a big, big price," Suleiman said.

He was desperate to get his parents out of the country, but his mother had refused to leave unless all her sons did, too. They would not.

I had heard the reason many times from different people: we win, or we die.

# ? May 12, 2011 12:40

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Updates for the last 12 hours:
Gaddafi and friends

quote:

Libyan state TV showed footage of an apparently healthy Muammar Gaddafi meeting officials in a Tripoli hotel on Wednesday, ending nearly two weeks of doubt over his fate since a NATO air strike killed his son.
Gaddafi, who had not appeared in public since the April 30 strike on his Bab al-Aziziyah compound killed his youngest son and three of his grandchildren, appeared in his trademark brown robe, dark sunglasses and black hat.
"We tell the world: 'those are the representatives of the Libyan tribes,'" Gaddafi said as he pointed to his visitors and then named a few of them.

The Rebels and friends

quote:

Libya's consul in Cairo told Al Arabiya television in remarks aired on Thursday that he was quitting his post to join rebel ranks.
"In response to the souls and blood of the martyrs of the February 17 revolution, I, Faraj Saeed al-Aribi, the Libyan consul in Cairo, declare my resignation and my joining of the February 17 revolution," al-Aribi told the television channel.

quote:

Libyan rebels, bouyed by their capture of Misurata airport, geared Thursday for an assault on the town of Zlitan that would take them another step closer to the capital Tripoli.

Zliten is a town in the Misrata District of Libya. It is located on the southern coast of the Mediterranean Sea west of the Gulf of Sidra. The name is given to both the town and the whole area and is situated 160km east of the capital, Tripoli.

The airport at Misrata, Libya's third-largest city fell to the rebels on Wednesday after long and intense fighting with troops loyal to Libyan strongman Muammar Gaddafi, an AFP correspondent said.

quote:

At least three rockets struck the strategic rebel-held crossroads town of Ajdabiya in eastern Libya on Thursday but no casualties were reported, residents and a medic told AFP.

The first hit a house in an eastern neighbourhood of the town shortly before 6:00 am (0400 GMT), residents said. "The rocket came through the roof of the kitchen. We were sleeping but were not injured," said Mohamed Awad, pointing to the debris littering the ground.

A second rocket struck near a rubbish heap and a third partly destroyed two cars in the same neighbourhood. It was not possible to determine where the rockets had been fired from.

Doctor Ahmed Al-Ignashi, head of Ajdabiya ambulance services, confirmed the rocket attacks. "They did not cause any casualties," he said. Ajdabiya, 160km south of the rebel bastion of Benghazi, has been under rebel control for several weeks now, but there is continuing fighting with government forces who hold the oil town of Brega, 80km to the west.

For several days, the rebels have been positioned 20mk west of Ajdabiya, while Muammer Gaddafi's forces are 20km further west.

On Monday, six rebels were killed in heavy fighting between the two towns and on Wednesday, a small loyalist force conducted a raid six kilometres from Ajdabiya, killing one and wounding two.

quote:

UK prime minister David Cameron has invited the Libyan opposition to establish a formal office in London.

quote:

David Cameron and the foreign secretary, William Hague, have met Mustafa Abdul-Jalil, head of the National Transitional Council in London. In a gesture more symbolic than anything else the UK has promised to supply the rebels with uniforms and body armour for a police force and help set up a public radio station
Cameron � who has not followed the lead of France and Italy in recognising Abdul-Jalil�s group as Libya�s new government � said: �These steps continue our very clear intention to work with the council to ensure Libya has a safe and stable future, free from the tyranny of the Gaddafi regime.�

quote:

The Opposition appointed a new economy and interior ministers for their executive body. Abdullah Shamiya, who spent years as a political prisoner under Qaddafi, was named economy minister, Abdel Hafiz Ghoga, vice president of the rebels� National Transitional Council. A judge, Ahmed Hussein, was appointed minister for the interior and local governance

NATO

quote:

5 airstrikes were heard in the Tripoli in the early morning as planes continuously flew overhead. Four more were heard later in the space of ten minutes.

quote:

Libyan state television says North Korean embassy in Tripoli has been damaged by NATO air strike on sites in the city on Thursday.

The news, which was flashed up in a caption on al-Jamahiriya TV, said the embassy suffered major damage in NATO strikes on military and civilian sites in the Libyan capital.

It did not say if the embassy was hit directly, or when the damage occurred.

quote:

On May 11th, NATO warplanes flew 141 sorties, 46 of which were intended as strike sorties. Some of the key targets included:
In the vicinity of Tripoli: 4 Ammunition Storages, 4 Command & Control Facilities, 2 Surface-To-Air Missile Launcher.
In the vicinity of Surman: 4 Surface-To-Air Missile Launcher.
In the vicinity of Misratah: 1 Surface-To-Air Missile Launcher.

# ? May 12, 2011 12:46

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

Looking at Zlitan in Google Earth, I'm wondering the rebels are going to take the hills south of the town first. There's a lot of open area between the hills and the city to lure Qaddafi forces out, the hills curve around and present an opportunity to cut of the westbound road out of Zlitan, there's a chemical and (more importantly) cement plant that could be used to create fortifications, and access to a lake/reservoir. Any of these would be advantageous in getting Qaddafi's forces out of the city.

# ? May 12, 2011 13:08

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

If they keep using the same tactics as before they'll probably aim to encircle Gaddafi's forces, and block roads to prevent reinforcements. What'll be interesting is if once they get close to Zliten will we see Zliten rebels attacking Gaddafi forces in the city. There's already been claims that some of the rebels who fought to take control of the airport came from Zliten, and there's certaintly been no reports to suggest Zliten has been under seige like other cities in the area.

Maj Gen John Lorimer, Chief of Defence Staff's Strategic Communications Officer and Ministry of Defence spokesman on military operations is Tweeting some interesting stuff:

quote:

HMS Liverpool was tasked with other NATO warships to intercept small high speed inflatable craft spotted approaching the port of Misratah. Similar boats have previously been used by the regime to attempt to mine the harbour.

The regime artillery on the coast fired an inaccurate salvo of rockets at Liverpool. HMS Liverpool immediately returned fire with her 4.5" gun, which silenced the shore battery. As a result of the prompt action by HMS Liverpool and the other NATO warships, Colonel Qadhafi's boats abandoned their operation.

RAF aircraft patrolled over the besieged city of Misratah on Monday, and attacked a number of regime targets in the area. The RAF aircraft damaged or destroyed two mobile radar systems, two multiple rocket launchers and a main battle tank

On Tuesday, RAF aircraft attacked a surface to air missile system and anti-aircraft artillery near Bani Walid. The aircraft also caused severe damage to a military vehicle depot near Tripoli, using Paveway bombs to hit the target despite cloud cover.

On Wednesday RAF aircraft successfully attacked 5 mobile radar systems & 1 surface to air missile launcher in strikes near Tripoli and Sirte

# ? May 12, 2011 13:23

Cable Guy: Jul 18, 2005; I don't expect any trouble, but we'll be handing these out later...; Slippery Tilde

Brown Moses posted:

This is a excellent and long article of a journalists two weeks with the rebels, worth a read if you are interested on what it's like on the ground. Here's a few edited highlights:

A great article. I've not heard the term "thowar" before. Seems pretty obvious that it means the rebels. Is there a more accurate translation though?

Martyrs?
Freedom fighters?
Those who seek to soil the jellabiya of the snake with the streaks of their buttcracks maybe?

Edit:

quote:

�There is no macaroni in Misurata."

I'm afraid that when I look back in twenty years to the Arab Spring, this will be the quote I most remember.

Edit 2: ___________VVVVVV Thanks VVVVVV____________

Cable Guy fucked around with this message at 14:43 on May 12, 2011

# ? May 12, 2011 14:04

quadratic: May 2, 2002; f(x) = ax^2 + bx + c

Cable Guy posted:

A great article. I've not heard the term "thowar" before. Seems pretty obvious that it means the rebels. Is there a more accurate translation though?

Martyrs?
Freedom fighters?
Those who seek to soil the Jellabiya of the snake with the streaks of their buttcracks maybe?

Thowar means revolutionaries, thawra means revolution.

# ? May 12, 2011 14:14

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

quote:

An interesting update from Bahrain, where the head of the military has taken a leaf out of Muammar Gaddafi's book by claiming anti-government protesters were influenced by drugs.

Announcing that a Saudi-led military force which helped crush protests will remain in the kingdom even after a state of emergency ends, the head of Bahrain's military, Sheik Khalifa bin Ahmed Al Khalifa, said protesters were "given pills which affected their minds and made them do unusual things", echoing Gaddafi's equally implausible notion that Libyan rebels had had their Nescafe spiked with hallucinogens. He had a sinister warning for those thinking of renewing the protests:

quote:
I say to those who did not get the message, 'If you return we will come back, stronger this time'

AP says the quotes come from state-run Bahrain News. I can't see it on the English-language feed, which is nonetheless fascinating reading in a KCNA-style propaganda way.

Welp, someones invoked the magical drug fairy in Bahrain, guess they are on course for a full scale revolt now.

# ? May 12, 2011 14:49

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

Seems like the international community is doing little about Syria other than a few token sanctions.
Any update as to if anyone's actually going to bring the Syria issue up to the UNSC? There is little difference between that and Libya.

P.S. gently caress Bahrain and the cunts who stood by doing nothing.

# ? May 12, 2011 14:55

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Sadly Bahrain and Syria both have far too many powerful friends for there to be any sort of international support beyond some token measures, unless it looks REALLY obvious the protests are going to overthrow the government.

# ? May 12, 2011 15:00

big fat retard: Nov 11, 2003; I AM AN IDIOT WITH A COMPULSIVE NEED TO TROLL EVERY THREAD I SEE!!!! PAY NO ATTENTION TO WHAT I HAVE TO SAY!!!

Brown Moses posted:

Sadly Bahrain and Syria both have far too many powerful friends for there to be any sort of international support beyond some token measures, unless it looks REALLY obvious the protests are going to overthrow the government.

Whether Syria's crackdown succeeds or fails, I can't see the regime recovering. Same with the crackdown in Bahrain. France was able to utterly crush the first Algerian uprising. It was their brutality and heavy-handed tactics that eventually mobilized the people to reorganize and kick them out.

I doubt that the citizens of Bahrain, Syria, and even Iran are somehow going to forget what had happened. Many of these uprisings were partly fueled by smaller uprisings and grievances that took place during the 80s. I doubt Syria's uprising would be as potent were it not for the Hama massacre. What I see with the GCC and the desperation of the Syrian regime and the Bahraini regime are thugs banding together to delay the inevitable. There's no way in Hell I can view Syria's potential successful crackdown, or Iran and Bahrain's genuinely successful crackdown, as anything other than short term Phyrric victories.

# ? May 12, 2011 15:32

DevNull: Apr 4, 2007; And sometimes is seen a strange spot in the sky
A human being that was given to fly

Christopher Albon has a good article in the Atlantic today about heath workers being targeted by these regimes.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/05/as-arabs-revolt-government-forces-target-health-workers/238782/

Not really news on progress, but I think it shows just how far these dictator are willing to go to stay in power. They have absolutely no respect for human life. There was an article by C.J Chivers a few weeks ago that had a story of a doctor that Chivers had given a flak jacket to. He later asked the doctor if he was wearing the jacket. The doctor said no, that he had given it an an ambulance driver because he was coming under fire more often.

# ? May 12, 2011 16:49

A Winner is Jew: Feb 14, 2008; by exmarx

DevNull posted:

Christopher Albon has a good article in the Atlantic today about heath workers being targeted by these regimes.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/05/as-arabs-revolt-government-forces-target-health-workers/238782/

Not really news on progress, but I think it shows just how far these dictator are willing to go to stay in power. They have absolutely no respect for human life. There was an article by C.J Chivers a few weeks ago that had a story of a doctor that Chivers had given a flak jacket to. He later asked the doctor if he was wearing the jacket. The doctor said no, that he had given it an an ambulance driver because he was coming under fire more often.

Wasn't the US journalist that was killed recently not wearing his flack jacket as well because he gave it to an ambulance driver a few days before?

# ? May 12, 2011 16:52

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Few bits:

quote:

YouTube user freeeeelibyan posted this video, claiming it shows a mercenary loyal to Muammar Gaddafi �killing Libyans� as he fires an assault rifle out a window. The video was found on a mercenary after their defeat in Misurata, the description says.

The man filming the video asks the shooter what he�s doing, and the shooter responds: �Wait and you�ll see.�

�Show me how you�re going to do it,� the cameraman says.

The shooter then points his gun out the window.

�Can you see him now?� the cameraman asks. �Today is the 14th, they said its liberation day, it�s you or us.�

Then: �Fire! Fire�

The video cuts, then the shooter says, �He�s gone, gone.� It�s unclear who they�re talking about, but both men ask Allah to have mercy on him.

quote:

A Libyan military attache at the country�s embassy in the United Arab Emirates told Al Arabiya television on Thursday he was quitting his post to join the rebel ranks. �I announce my split from the regime and my joining and wholehearted support for the February 17 revolution,� said air force brigadier Ammar Bilqasem, who was wearing a badge of the rebel flag on the lapel of his jacket. �Victory is near,� he said.

quote:

The International Criminal Court will likely issue an arrest warrant for Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi by the end of the month, Italy�s foreign minister said. The warrant would be a �key moment� in the battle against Gaddafi and would make it impossible for him to escape into exile, foreign minister Franco Frattini said on Thursday. �From that moment on, an exit from power or from the country will no longer be imaginable,� he said.

Apparently Italy has asked for the warrent to be issued for Gaddafi on May 15th, according to AJE.

# ? May 12, 2011 21:29

Fragrag: Aug 3, 2007; The Worst Admin Ever bashes You in the head with his banhammer. It is smashed into the body, an unrecognizable mass! You have been struck down.

A Winner is Jew posted:

Wasn't the US journalist that was killed recently not wearing his flack jacket as well because he gave it to an ambulance driver a few days before?

It was an article about the killed photographers, but I think the main liaison for the journalist was a red cross representative if I'm not mistaken.

# ? May 12, 2011 22:05

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

There's an interesting rumor that's cropped up following Sky News' Mark Stone's report on Qaddafi's recent appearance on state TV. The meeting with the tribal elders took place in the Rixos hotel, the same hotel the western journalists are staying in. So, Qaddafi was able to meet with these tribal leaders without anyone noticing.

The rumor goes is that Qaddafi may actually be staying at the hotel, under the reasoning that NATO would not bomb a hotel full of reporters.

# ? May 12, 2011 23:55

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Mahmoud Jibril, interim PM of the rebels, is in DC today and tomorrow, presumably to drum up more international support.

# ? May 13, 2011 01:19

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

An obviously :nws:

that appears to show the aftermath of Syrian security forces opening fire on a women's protest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbu7duIX6SE

# ? May 13, 2011 01:42

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

Re: HMS Liverpool - that's not counter-battery fire, that's counter-battery gently caress YOU

Still, I wonder if the artillery pieces were destroyed or if they were merely abandoned/stopped firing, and the boats also not destroyed but no longer simply venturing out (due to the lack of covering fire?).

# ? May 13, 2011 05:31

ecureuilmatrix: Mar 30, 2011

Yeah, I'd be curious to learn about the material results of the Sea Battle of Misrata. Where does Q find people crazy enough to run a gauntlet of Western frigates?

According to this, HMS Liverpool and HMCS Charlottetown :canada:

were joined by a French ship. Any ideas which one? Courbet?

Naval support would be pretty cool for the Eastern rebels, I mean Brega is a seaport (and Ras Lanuf, Sidrah...) and the entire Daffy supply line is a coastal road. Just park the hulk of Ark Royal off the coast!

EDIT: Les Fran�ais say they shot at stuff near Brega on the 2nd with Montcalm and near Misratah on the 7th with Courbet. 100 mm Naval Gun suckers!

ecureuilmatrix fucked around with this message at 07:50 on May 13, 2011

# ? May 13, 2011 07:14

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

It gets better -- the Liverpool's stated (on Wiki) to have a 114 mm gun :haw:

(actually 113 mm -- 4.45 inches -- according to Wikipedia) Here's a seemingly official article on the exchange.

Personally, ecureuilmatrix, I'd be very interested in reading about the Sea Battle of Misrata, not least because (at least if GBS is anything to go by) it sounds like it'll be one of the more overlooked elements of the 2011 Libya conflict, passed over for "decry the Western IMPERIALISM"

Heck, this is the first time I can recall a naval exchange in a while that wasn't against Somali pirates who'd mistaken a warship for a target...

# ? May 13, 2011 08:24

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

I bet they won't be trying to sneak into Misrata using rubber dingys again.

May 13th Live Blogs
LibyaFeb17.com
http://feb17.info/news/live-libyan-unrest-libyan-diplomat-toraia-ben-saleem-has-been-arrested-near-paris/
AJE

Dipolomacy

quote:

Mahmoud Jibril, the chief of the opposition National Transitional Council, is expected to meet Michele Flournoy, the US under secretary of defense on Friday at the Pentagon.

quote:

A Libyan opposition leader made a plea on Thursday for the United States to free up some of the billions of dollars in frozen Libyan assets, saying the Benghazi-based rebels were in a financial crisis.

Mahmoud Jebril, a US-educated technocrat who has become the public face of the rebel Transitional National Council, is making the rounds in Washington seeking greater support for rebels struggling to end Muammar Gaddafi�s 41-year rule.

quote:

Britain has promised to provide Libyan opposition with police gear.

Gaddafi and friends

quote:

Pressure is mounting on Muammar Gaddafi from within his stronghold in the Libyan capital, with increasing NATO airstrikes and worsening shortages of fuel and goods.

An activist said on Friday that there has also been a wave of anti-government protests in several Tripoli neighborhoods this week � dissent that in the past has been met with zero tolerance and brutal force.

quote:

A Libyan diplomat has been arrested near Paris. Toraia Ben Saleem is one of the 14 diplomats declared personae non grata in Paris last Friday, giving them two days to leave.

Ben Saleem�s daughter and lawyer are calling the arrest a �kidnapping.� They say the police did not have an arrest warrant. They are filing a complaint in the Paris courts.

Misrata daily update from the rebels

quote:

The day started fairly quiet in Misrata city, after a pretty successful day yesterday when the FreedomFighters were able to comb the Air force Academy and the Misrata International Airport and clear it of all Gaddafi forces.

Also some families who had been detained and help hostage in their homes near the airport were freed in ( qariyat nusur aljaw ). In a location just South of the air force academy, families were forced to stay indoors by Gaddafi forces for 2 months � they had no access to clean water, electricity and there was a huge shortage in food (some survived on eating grass).

There are still areas in East Misrata which have not been Liberated yet � the area between Kirzaz thru Temina.

There are still clashes between FF and G forces in the belt area south of Misrata , also in Temina close to Dafniya Gate, where the Gerdaffi forces are located on the borders of Zliten.

Also G forces are still located in Krareem area east of Misrata , and close to the Agriculture Police department in the south .

There have been NATO strikes this morning on a building with G forces located in it .

DISASTROUS situation in Temina area: FF have been advancing until they found Gaddafi Forces using families from Temina as HUMAN SHIELDS. FFs forced to cease fire and retreat to avoid a catastrophe.

Benghazi
A photo of the first batch of newly qualified police. Note their shiny new cars and brand new uniforms:

Only registered members can see post attachments!

# ? May 13, 2011 08:42

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

CJ Chivers posted another blog entry about the situation in Misrata:

quote:

Ali Mahmoud, a Libyan rebel, drew a caricature of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi on an aircraft seized in Misurata on Thursday.C.J. Chivers/The New York TimesAli Mahmoud, a Libyan rebel, drew a caricature of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi on an aircraft seized in Misurata on Thursday.

MISURATA, Libya � If the official statements by the government of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi about the battle for this city were true, then much that was visible around the airport on Thursday did not actually happen or exist.

There were no clusters of rebels and machine-gun trucks at the traffic circle by the outdoor bazaar and huge mosque. The empty fighting holes, left in haste on Wednesday by fleeing Qaddafi soldiers, were not empty. The loyalist soldiers there were just especially well-camouflaged.

Those armed rebels on the runway, milling around by the score? They were not really there.

And certainly Rabi Mustaf Algnidi, 20, did not drive with his fellow rebels into one of the airport�s military hangars and climb atop a Soko G-2 Galeb military jet, pry open the cover of the fuel tank with a bayonet and siphon out jet fuel, mouth-to-hose, into an empty water jug.

There are parallel Libyas in Libya, and in some ways they have yet to meet.

One world is the world portrayed in some of the statements of loyalist officials, like Moussa Ibrahim, the government spokesman, who on Wednesday, as Misurata�s airport fell into the hands of anti-Qaddafi rebels, insisted that no such thing had occurred.

�This is nonsense,� he said. �We control the airport and we also control the seaport.�

The seaport on Wednesday was in fact under the control of the rebels, who stood at its three gates with rifles, on watch beneath the red, black and green rebel flag.

The only loyalist presence on Wednesday, port officials said, took the shape of two dinghies of frogmen or soldiers that tried to approach the harbor from the west.

They did not make it by miles, said Hafed Makhlouf, the port supervisor. �NATO sunk one of them and chased the second dinghy away.�

That report could not be independently confirmed, unlike the rest. Like that Mr. Algnidi, after securing a jug of fuel from the Qaddafi military jet on Thursday, went to the far side of the hangar to climb about a helicopter, a Bristow Eurocopter Super Puma, as if it were a playground set.

�God is great!� he said.

The Libyan conflict has been, by almost any human measure, a sorrow. Libyans have set upon Libyans. Thousands of them have been killed on each side and many more have been wounded, some maimed and broken for life. Untold numbers more are missing.

The future of the country is uncertain. The intentions and motivations of the Western countries who have supported the rebels have been called into question. Normal civilian life is suspended. School and banks are closed, phone networks are down, transportation lines between regions have been severed, medical services are strained and unexploded munitions lie about.

War can sow grief and hate and uncertainty. All of these are evident here. Some Libyans already ask, even as they acknowledge the rebels� sacrifices, how, later, will these young men be disarmed? Everyone waits for an end, and wonders what it will bring.

But among the many emotions to which war can give license, are also moments of relief and exuberance, like that seen here, as the siege of Misurata appeared, in the minds of many rebels, to be nearing an end. If there are signs in Libya of a brittle government and cult of personality cracking further, then maybe the sights in the hangar were sufficient.

Ali Mahmoud, who arrived on the same rebel truck as Mr. Algnidi, initially focused on work. He went from plane to plane looking for weapons. But the two G-2 Galebs and the pair of J-21 Jastrebs, both vintage Yugoslavian models, had already given up their nose-mounted machine guns to a previous crew of scavengers.

So for a moment Mr. Mahmoud set aside his pragmatism, and joined his friend�s irreverence. He produced an orange marker and began to sketch on one of the helicopter�s doors. A mock-up emerged quickly � of Colonel Qaddafi�s face, cap and exaggerated hair.

Mr. Mahmoud drew a circle around the face, and a line through it, before misspelling, in English, a single word: �Donkey.�

If the Qaddafi government still controls the Misurata airport, then the Qaddafi government has a sense of humor indeed.

A third rebel produced a stack of small papers and arranged them on the hangar floor in Arabic script, card by card, until they formed a slogan: �Libya free.�

�Thank you,� the rebel said in halting English to a visitor, before stepping into their truck, which carried two looted .50 caliber machine guns and a jug of looted jet fuel, and driving slowly away. He raised his fingers in a victory sign.

Once outside the hangar, the driver gunned it, setting off for a spin down the airport runway, where there was not a Qaddafi government official � or soldier � in sight.

A Twitter user also posted a map of the frontlines in Misrata based off various reports

Only registered members can see post attachments!

# ? May 13, 2011 09:22

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

I thought this article posted on the Guardian Live Blog provided some interesting insight into the situation in Syria, Yemen, and Libya:

quote:

Following the comparatively swift exits of Ben Ali in Tunisia and Mubarak in Egypt, we now have three Arab leaders who face serious challenges to their power but are proving more much difficult to dislodge: Gaddafi in Libya, Salih in Yemen and Assad in Syria. Which of them, I wonder will be the next to go � and when?

The Syrian uprising is the most recent � it began in the middle of March � and my gut feeling is that it will not succeed quickly. The Assad regime could easily survive into next year, if not for longer, though it is unlikely ever to recover from the blow to its authority.

"The regime will dig in its heels and fight to the end," Joshua Landis writes on his blog. But he continues:

quote:
"The Syrian opposition has successfully established a culture of resistance that is widespread in Syria and will not be eliminated. Even if demonstrations can be shut down for the time being, the opposition will not be defeated. Syria�s youth, long apolitical and apathetic, is now politicised, mobilised, and passionate. All the same, the opposition remains divided and leaderless, which presents great dangers for a post-Assad Syria."

In Yemen, where protests directed specifically against the president began during the second half of January, Salih has been playing his usual wily game. he has already agreed to go, but he keeps finding reasons why he should stay a bit longer. Protected by his Republican Guard, he seems to have decided that street protests alone � even if millions take part in them � are not going to dislodge him.

This has led to many predictions that the result will be armed conflict. But there is also a possibility that the economy will bring him down.

The Chinese news agency, Xinhua, has a grim report today which quotes the Yemeni oil minister as saying economic collapse is "imminent".

The report says Yemen's oil production "has been halved in recent weeks after producers pulled out their staff and halted output, which led to the closure of the country's sole refinery in Aden".

The minister, Amir Salim al-Aydarus, blamed this mainly on "sabotage", though he also acknowledged the role played by "political deadlock".

"The sabotage and destruction by outlaws on oil and gas pipelines as well as electricity lines exacerbated the economic situation," Aydarus is reported as saying. "If the problem persists, the government will be unable to meet the minimum needs of the citizens. The situation will pose a catastrophe beyond imagination."

In Libya, where the rebellion began in mid-February, there has been much talk of a prolonged stalemate � though I'm sceptical about that. Judging by recent reports, the rebels are gradually consolidating their position while the Gaddafi regime is being slowly worn down by the Nato bombing and other factors. When the time comes, it could collapse quite suddenly.

The course of events in Libya is now largely in the hands of outside forces, unlike Syria and, to a lesser extent, Yemen (where the GCC countries are involved diplomatically), and my reading of the situation is that western powers are in no great hurry to see Gaddafi go. After more than 40 years in power, another few months is neither here nor there, so it's better to keep him pinned down in Tripoli until the rebels have properly got their act together and are capable of running the show.

One way or another, all three regimes � in Libya, Yemen and Syria � are on the slide. In any of these countries, unforeseen events such as assassination or a coup could hasten their demise but as things stand at the moment it looks like a toss-up as to whether Salih or Gaddafi will be the first to go.

One benefit that a prolonged conflict has for the rebels is it allows the rebel government in Benghazi to create things like a police force, and run local council elections, as well as creating a greater sense of unity among the rebels, as well as making it less likely they'll tolerate anything but a proper democracy one Gaddafi is gone. If they spend months fighting and dying together to get rid of Gaddafi I can't envision them suddenly deciding they'll return to old tribal loyalties, and settling with a new Western sponsered strong man.

NATO Report for the day:

quote:

On May 12th, NATO aircraft flew 145 sorties, 52 of which were intended as strike sorties. Some of the targets included:
In the vicinity of Tripoli: 2 Surface-To-Air Missile Launchers, 3 Buildings inside a military camp. In the vicinity of Misratah: 1 Surface-To-Air Missile Launcher, 2 Buildings, 1 Truck-Mounted Gun, 1 AntiAircraft Gun.
In the vicinity of Al Qaryat: 10 Ammo storages.
In the vicinity of Sirte: 5 Ammo Storages, 1 Command & Control Node.
In the vicinity of Brega: 1 Rocket Launcher, 1 Tank.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 11:06 on May 13, 2011

# ? May 13, 2011 10:46

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Mahmoud Jibril is the prime minister and chair of the Libyan National Transitional Council's executive board, and gave the following speech, Tweeted by Andy Carvin, to the Brooking Institute yesterday. This is cut and paste from his Tweets, so it's not word for word:

quote:

What's happening in Libya can't be separated from what's happening in Egypt, Yemen, Syria, etc. What's taking place is a natural result of globalization that began in the 80s, a new cultural paradigm, and this trend is irreversible. Freedom of expression, participatory democracy.

It's in the US strategic interest to pay close attention to what's going on. Overall foreign policy should be revisited.

Communication is the name of the game. Knowledge is spreading like hell. Mass communications is going to affect our lives more than ever - access to information, etc.

What started on Feb 17th was the start of the revolution. Those kids who took to the streets were peaceful, and they demanded dignity, rights, education, a better future. Unemployment exceeds 30% yet there is vast wealth due to oil revenue. There is mass deprivation of the people. This generation has no fear whatsoever. Completely different from previous gen, where fear was a central value.

The first group of martyrs became the fuel of the revolution. Different parts of society to came to march in the streets. Regime new they lacked personnel to put it down. They concluded that killing more protesters would attract intl involvement, which would rally Libyans around Gaddafi.

We tried from the beginning to create some sort of structure to counter Gaddafi's arguments about Al Qaeda, etc. The first goal was to communicate to the outside world that Libya is one country. One history, one future, capital in Tripoli.

The NTC is not a political org. We're an interim administrative org until the regime falls. Then the people decide leaders. The NTC represents all Libyan territory. Reps from south and west now heading to Benghazi to join the council. There are now 14 ministries to serve whatever needs the people have. But we're facing an acute financial problem.

I want to thank the US and the free world for taking this stand against tyrrany.

This revolution started as a peaceful one. Arms was forced upon us b/c of this genocide, this killing machine. Estimates suggest at least 11k people have been killed in the last 12 weeks; 750k people have fled the country.

We are very optimistic about the future. The people in Misurata fought back Gaddafi forces and are now marching west. Active uprisings have been happening in Tripoli over the last week. Our people are breaking the sieges that exist in the western mountains, so they too can march on Tripoli.

I think there's a lot at stake for the US and free world who came to our aid. We can serve as a model to others. We can be a model not just for the Arab world, but for Africa. Developing real democratic models that can be imitated. Libya can again be the bridge between Europe and Africa when it comes to development.

I disagree there is a military stalemate on the ground. People say the opposition can't end this militarily. I would argue the *regime* can't end it militarily.

Freedom fighters are marching to Tripoli. When the right of power fights the power of right, the power of right always wins. You'll see in the coming weeks there's still more ground to be gained by freedom fighters.

Gaddafi only has two powers left: the power to kill and the power to bribe. We need to stop the former right now.

A ceasefire would be a partition of the country, which we completely reject. There's better protection of civilians, freedom fighters are gaining more ground and getting more confident. The ICC arrest warrant will be real political pressure on Gaddafi. Squeezing and strangling the regime.

Hopefully in the next few weeks we'll see a total collapse of the regime from within. A political solution would have to protect and highlight the rights of the Libyan people.

The Turkish proposal is promising and could be a viable means for negotiating, incl departure of Gaddafi. The Turkish proposal is more comprehensive, covers both a ceasefire and a departure of the Gaddafi family. Any political solution must be compatible with the aspirations of the entire Libyan people.

Then various questions were asked, here are his replies:

quote:

If I meet Obama, I'd really thank him for the role the US has played, and strongly urge him to play a more active role.

quote:

There should be an interim govt incl #ntc members, technocrats from previous regime, supreme court judge, mil, civ society. We are running out of money. We have people under siege, or living as refuges. We have a human tragedy in the making. They can't release the money yet b/c we're not recognized as the official new govt, even though Gaddafi called illegit.

We've worked it out with Qatar, Italy, France. Other countries with recognize us in the next few days. Sen Kerry is trying to create legislation to release money to us. But we're going to need around $3 bil. So keep most of our assets as collateral and let us access the other money to get the job done. If these finance issues continue for another 5-6 weeks, it might be too later.

quote:

We'll call for elections only after the fall of the regime, the constitution is drafted and the people approve it.

quote:

Re: NATO, we're talking about protecting civilians. The resolution states this by any measures necessary. NATO's strikes lately are more successful, more responsive. There were some complaints before.

NATO is more active now re: carrying out the UNSC resolution.

quote:

NTC is an administrative body. When it's time to decide Libya's rulers, that should be a fully democratic process.

quote:

We don't have a timetable (re Tripoli); the freedom fighters need to defend themselves, too. It's self defense. They're getting slaughtered day and night. It's a peaceful revolution, not an armed struggled. They're being forced to do whatever to defend themselves. But this is still a peaceful revolution. [/qutoe]

[quote]We are seeking every type of assistance from our Arab brothers. Qatar has done that immensely, as has UAE. Kuwait, Jordan and Morocco are helping as well. So I can't just single out one country. I thank all of them.

quote:

We have a depleted commodity. We have only oil, and it won't last forever. We have to think of an alternative economy.
Our future economy must be based on our geographic positioning and in areas we can be competitive in. We can become a service economy based on knowledge, a new education philosophy.

quote:

There needs to be an independent judiciary; we're talking about accountability and transparency.
Reaching that stage is a must. We're facing a number of challenges, including a demographic challenge. Population down.

Egypt will have 117 mil people by the time we get to 2025, while Libya will be just 8.1 mil.

The scarcity of water is also a challenge. We've got the worst access in the region.

And people don't respect the state any more. There's been a lack of rule of law. We need to restore both. We're in a state of nature right now; all against all. If we don't rebuild the state, we could become a failed state.

We have the financial resources. We just need the right vision and the political will to do it.

# ? May 13, 2011 11:17

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Small update, the ICC just announced it will issue arrest warents for Gaddafi and friends on Monday.

# ? May 13, 2011 12:39

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Big update:
Diplomacy

quote:

Russia called on Friday for negotiations as soon as possible between Libyan opposition and Muammar Gaddafi�s government

quote:

Russia said on Friday that the U.N. Security Council must decide how to free up and distribute Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi�s frozen assets, adding that they should not be used to arm any side in the war-torn country.

quote:
�The process of their distribution for humanitarian aid should be controlled by the Security Council � It is fundamentally important to ensure that these finances are not used for the delivery of weapons to Libya,�

quote:

Norway�s Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg said on Friday that �the solution to the problems in Libya are political, they cannot be solved by military means alone.� Stoltenberg told reporters on the sidelines of a conference in Oslo. �We are very much supporting all efforts to find a political solution to the challenges we are facing in Libya.�

quote:

International Criminal Court prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo said on Friday he would seek arrest warrants on May 16 for three people considered most responsible for crimes against humanity in Libya. The judges may accept the application, reject it, or ask for further information. More than 1,200 documents have been reviewed including videos and pictures and more than 50 interviews have been recorded or individuals screened to be interviewed. The evidence has been collected through 30 missions in 11 states

Humanitarian issues

quote:

There is concern that the fighting in Libya is blocking access to the Western mountains area, where the World Food Programme believes there are severe food shortages

quote:

Migrants fleeing conflict in Libya by sea have a one in 10 chance of dying in a Mediterranean crossing in appalling conditions on massively overcrowded, unseaworthy boats, the U.N. refugee agency said on Friday.

West Libya

quote:

Libya�s pro-democracy fighters have taken up a new line of defence in the Western Mountains where from their high vantage point they can easily observe the movements of Muammar Gaddafi�s troops on the plains far below. It has been a successful last few moves for the NATO-aided rebels who have repelled attacks on land and sea in the last few days � but things are far from over.

quote:

NATO launched more airstrikes Friday in Tripoli as Moammar Gadhafi�s regime faced open defiance on the ground, with activists reporting gunfights between protesters and soldiers in several of the capital�s neighbourhoods. The protests, coupled with worsening shortages of fuel and other goods, have prompted Gadhafi�s rebel opponents to predict that his hold on the capital may be in jeopardy.The sound of two airstrikes could be heard in Tripoli early Friday, though it was not immediately clear what they targeted.

East Libya

quote:

Libyan state TV claims At least 16 people were killed and up to 40 were wounded, in a Nato strike on a guest house in Brega.

Regarding the supposed Brega attack, State TV is claiming it occured after a religious ceremony was televised from the bombed location, suggesting that not only did NATO bomb civilians, but they also purposely bombed a religious ceremony. Twitter users who viewed the video shown on State TV of the bodies noted they were all male, and didn't appear to be wearing any religious clothing. They also noticed that Brega was pretty much deserted after the local population fled when it became the frontline in the war.

There's also unconfirmed reports that NATO recently attacked a large number of Gaddafi troops near Brega, and the rebels might be preparing for a push, and that this report is an attempt by the regime to stop NATO from attacking troops in and around Brega.

# ? May 13, 2011 15:32

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# ? May 16, 2024 09:07

automatic: Nov 3, 2010; by Y Kant Ozma Post

Does Stoltenberg actual believe reconciliation is possible at this point or are the Norwegian's just cozying up to the Russians?

After 11k dead and hundreds of thousands displaced I don't really see anything other that regime change happening. Especially when the side that started the slaughter is on the rocks.

# ? May 13, 2011 15:51

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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