Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

The NTC has already said they won't accept anything less than Gaddafi's family leaving Libya, so it's pretty much a non-starter.

The Italian Foreign Minster just kicked the rumour mill into overdrive

quote:

The Italian foreign minister said Friday that Moammar Gadhafi may have fled Tripoli but is likely still in Libya.

Franco Frattini said "international pressure has likely provoked the decision by Gadhafi to seek refuge in a safe place." The comments came during a TV interview with Corriere della Sera that was posted on the newspaper's website.

"I lean toward the solution of an escape from Tripoli, not an escape from Libya," Frattini said. "Libya is a big country, with desert areas."

Gadhafi is expected to be among three Libyan officials targeted by arrest warrants to be issued Monday by the International Criminal Court.

Gadhafi's compound has been a frequent site of NATO-led airstrikes, including an attack on April 30 where he is believed to have been inside but have escaped unharmed. Seeking to quell speculation he might have been killed, Libyan state TV this week showed Gadhafi meeting tribal leaders, apparently in a Tripoli hotel on Wednesday.

Frattini said he had "many doubts that that footage had been made that day and especially in Tripoli."

From what I've read he was told it by the bishop of Tripoli, who I think is pretty much a shill for the Gaddafi regime, so I doubt it's actually true.

It sounds like there's been a lot of fighting on the outskirts of Misrata today, and the rebels are claiming they cleared out more Gaddafi troops in the east, and they've made even more progress towards Zliten.

# ? May 13, 2011 16:33

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 17:33

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

automatic posted:

Does Stoltenberg actual believe reconciliation is possible at this point or are the Norwegian's just cozying up to the Russians?

After 11k dead and hundreds of thousands displaced I don't really see anything other that regime change happening. Especially when the side that started the slaughter is on the rocks.

Go and read what he said again. He didn't say anything about reconciliation.

Do anyone have any further information on the report that NATO told the rebels they would be bombed if they advanced on Brega? Nato's actions *if* the rebels start to advance on civilian areas controlled by CQ will be the decider I think

# ? May 13, 2011 16:42

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

Brown Moses posted:

The NTC has already said they won't accept anything less than Gaddafi's family leaving Libya, so it's pretty much a non-starter.

If NATO refuse to allow rebels to advance on CQ held cities, then they may not have a choice but to start negotiating. I don't think either side is in the position to be making demands.

# ? May 13, 2011 16:45

automatic: Nov 3, 2010; by Y Kant Ozma Post

Jut posted:

Go and read what he said again. He didn't say anything about reconciliation.

Do anyone have any further information on the report that NATO told the rebels they would be bombed if they advanced on Brega? Nato's actions *if* the rebels start to advance on civilian areas controlled by CQ will be the decider I think

quote:

Norway�s Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg said on Friday that �the solution to the problems in Libya are political, they cannot be solved by military means alone.� Stoltenberg told reporters on the sidelines of a conference in Oslo. �We are very much supporting all efforts to find a political solution to the challenges we are facing in Libya.�

"Political solution" sure sounds like a euphemism for a reconciliation government. What do you think he means?

Certainly doesn't sound like regime change either.

# ? May 13, 2011 16:49

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

I think the big test of what the rebels can achieve will be what happens in Zliten. If the rebels can take over that city then it means they can not only hold cities, but take them back. The next test will be whether or not approaching rebels forces cause the people in the cities to rise up against the occupying Gaddafi forces.

Jut posted:

Do anyone have any further information on the report that NATO told the rebels they would be bombed if they advanced on Brega? Nato's actions *if* the rebels start to advance on civilian areas controlled by CQ will be the decider I think

My understanding is they were told to pull away from Brega so NATO could bomb Gaddafi's forces without risking friendly fire. After the rebels last big push to Sirte and their subsequent retreat everyone who lived in Brega fled to Benghazi. It's not like it's a big built up area where people can hide while Gaddafi's troops do their thing, it's a pretty small place, with everything spread out.

# ? May 13, 2011 16:51

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

automatic posted:

"Political solution" sure sounds like a euphemism for a reconciliation government. What do you think he means?

Certainly doesn't sound like regime change either.

It sounds like seeking a political solution, plain and simple. Getting to the negotiating table and hammering out a deal. Regime change is one possible outcome, reconciliation is another, as are countless other scenarios. You're reading into it what you want to hear.

# ? May 13, 2011 17:11

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

automatic posted:

"Political solution" sure sounds like a euphemism for a reconciliation government. What do you think he means?

Certainly doesn't sound like regime change either.

Political solution can be anything that is not a military solution - even if military means are the driving force behind it. For example, WW1 ended with a political solution as the Kaiser was forced to resign and the new government agreed to the peace terms but didn't surrender. WW2 ended with a military solution as Allied armies occupied the whole Germany, Hitler shot himself and the armed forces surrendered unconditionally. The question is, is Gaddafi and his henchmen more like the Kaiser or the F�hrer?

# ? May 13, 2011 17:13

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

Just realised, the 60 day limit on the War Powers Act is drawing near...then what?

# ? May 13, 2011 17:19

OregonDonor: Mar 12, 2010

Jut posted:

Just realised, the 60 day limit on the War Powers Act is drawing near...then what?

Probably a renewal and more of the same imperialist bullshit until NTC oil contracts are arranged and Gaddafi is either eliminated or steps down from power.

# ? May 13, 2011 18:24

kw0134: Apr 19, 2003; I buy feet pics🍆

Jut posted:

Just realised, the 60 day limit on the War Powers Act is drawing near...then what?

Nothing. Congress won't push the matter and even if it wanted to the current legislative calendar is booked solid to the next election. Obama will, like all his predecessors, mark the date by avoiding anything which would create any sort of precedent for acknowledging the legitimacy of the resolution.

# ? May 13, 2011 18:42

ecureuilmatrix: Mar 30, 2011

Hasn't the NTC promised to honor existing (i.e. Gaddafi-negotiated) contracts?

# ? May 13, 2011 19:58

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Any they deem legal.

Gaddafi reared his head:

quote:

Libyan state television said on Friday it would air a statement by Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi shortly.

The announcement came after Italy said that Gaddafi had likely been wounded in Western air strikes and had probably left Tripoli.

quote:

Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi said in an audio recording broadcast on state television on Friday that he was in a place where NATO cannot reach and kill him.

�I am telling the coward crusaders that I am at a place you cannot reach and kill me,� he said in the recording broadcast on al-Jamahiriya television.

NATO bombed Gaddafi�s Bab al-Aziziyah compound in Tripoli on Thursday.

quote:

�I tell the cowardly crusader (NATO) that I live in a place they cannot reach and where you cannot kill me �. I live in the hearts of the millions,� said the voice, which sounded like Gaddafi�s. There was no accompanying video.

He also said he was making the statement after receiving a �massive� number of calls asking about his condition following a NATO air strike on his compound on Thursday.

Probably not being filmed isn't helping his case.

# ? May 13, 2011 20:30

Ballz: Dec 16, 2003; it's mario time

Brown Moses posted:

Any they deem legal.

Gaddafi reared his head:

Probably not being filmed isn't helping his case.

Didn't they release video of him a few days ago, and made sure to include a shot of him in front of a TV news program showing the day's date?

# ? May 13, 2011 20:50

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Guma El-Gamat "UK Co-ordinator for the benghazi based National Transitional Council NTC in Libya" just posted an interesting Tweet:

quote:

Tripoli moving tonight after strong rumours on gadhafi's life heavy gunfire now in different parts and news of large desertions by G thugs

He doesn't post much about the situation in different areas, so it's interesting he chooses to Tweet that information.

There's also various reports of the rebels having reached the east side of Zliten, currently fighting Gaddafi forces there.

# ? May 13, 2011 20:53

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

Brown Moses posted:

Any they deem legal.

Gaddafi reared his head:

Probably not being filmed isn't helping his case.

No, he's pulling the "Osama puts curtains on the walls" so you don't know where he's hiding.

I'm really thinking that he's hiding in the Rixos, now.

# ? May 13, 2011 20:53

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Speaking of interesting Tweets:
From FebLiba17.com

quote:

BREAKING :Tripoli is on fire NOW. FFs are advancing to the centre with tanks and rockets etc liberating districts on the way.

From 2 minutes ago.

# ? May 13, 2011 20:56

Finlander: Feb 21, 2011

Brown Moses posted:

Speaking of interesting Tweets:
From FebLiba17.com

From 2 minutes ago.

Whoa whoa whoa, hold on just a second, there.
If this is true, where'd they come from? Aren't all the rebels stuck on the other side of the country?

# ? May 13, 2011 21:31

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Maybe from here:

quote:

#Freedomfighters are now firmly in control of #Mitiga air/military base CONFIRMED

That was where it was rumoured a few days ago that the rebels had raised there flag after a unit decided to join the rebels. This is all of course totally unverifiable, so don't get too excited yet. The one thing that makes this more interesting is the Tweet I posted by that TNC member, could all be BS though.

Doesn't help that Twitter is hosed at the moment.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 21:38 on May 13, 2011

# ? May 13, 2011 21:35

Finlander: Feb 21, 2011

Hmm.
Well, if it is a lie, it's a huge gamble. I mean, sure, it might make the people in the city try and rebel, as well, but that would most likely just end in them getting slaughtered, with the final result being an even more oppressed and demoralized city.
I'm not even sure why they would do something like that.

# ? May 13, 2011 21:44

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

It could always just be people making poo poo up on Twitter, and it getting passed on, it's hard to really know what's going on, the best journalists there can do at a time like this is Tweet if they hear any gunfire or explosions in the distance.

# ? May 13, 2011 21:46

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Finlander posted:

Hmm.
Well, if it is a lie, it's a huge gamble. I mean, sure, it might make the people in the city try and rebel, as well, but that would most likely just end in them getting slaughtered, with the final result being an even more oppressed and demoralized city.
I'm not even sure why they would do something like that.

I doubt twitter is the primary method of communication between the rebel leaders and the population

# ? May 13, 2011 21:59

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Basically it's like any chain e-mails that resurface every six months. There are always people who don't recognise that it's old (and false) rumours, and will pass it on as a new thing.

# ? May 13, 2011 22:08

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

I don't know if everyone is just excited tonight for some reason, but there's all sorts of poo poo floating about on Twitter at the moment, I'll wait until there's more solid information before posting anything here. The way some people are talking Gaddafi will be in chains by the morning.

# ? May 13, 2011 22:10

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

I think any time a nation's leader leaves the capital of their country in an emergency, especially one who has so many bunkers inside that capital, it usually means poo poo has really hit the fan for them.

# ? May 13, 2011 22:19

Chade Johnson: Oct 12, 2009; by Ozmaugh

I think they said that 2 months ago

# ? May 13, 2011 22:19

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

ChangeInLibya just posted this stuff:
MISRATA: Liberation of Dafniyah's western gate which is only 5 kilometres from Zliten

quote:

Zliten BREAKING: NATO warships bombarding Gaddafi forces in Zliten's "Tuesday" market - & clashes between G forces & FFighters

I guess we'll see what's what in the morning.

# ? May 13, 2011 22:34

neamp: Jun 24, 2003

The problem is even the reports from the last few days haven't been backed up with any evidence.
From Misurata and Nafusa we get accurate reports from people who are actually there often on the same day as events happen and videos backing up the claims shortly after.
For Tripoli and other areas under Gaddafi's control it's usually unsourced Tweets suddenly popping up or "some guy's cousin in Tripoli said..." and then nothing to follow it up.
Let us see some video evidence or at least a live phone call or something.

# ? May 13, 2011 22:35

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

The other problem is when you see videos they are all in Arabic, so it's hard to know what's actually happening in them.

# ? May 13, 2011 22:37

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

Brown Moses posted:

ChangeInLibya just posted this stuff:
MISRATA: Liberation of Dafniyah's western gate which is only 5 kilometres from Zliten

I guess we'll see what's what in the morning.

I just looked in Google Earth. Dafniyah's really more like halfway between Misarata and Zliten. It's more like 25km from the Dafniyah's center to Zliten's center. Of course, Zliten was the name of a district that encompassed a lot of the surrounding minor towns.

# ? May 13, 2011 22:53

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

ChangeInLibya just posted the translation of the rebels update for today from Misrata:

quote:

There were very good news today, with one exception - the bombardment that killed 3 children this afternoon. We managed to completely liberate Dafniyah today and revolutionaries went 2 km past the western gate.

There are big clashes between Misrata revolutionaries and Gaddafi forces. Hopefully, we'll connect with Zliten #FFs soon. Being able to reach our Freedom Fighters (brothers) in Zliten will allow us to pave the way towards Tripoli god willing.

As for the south, revolutionaries got as far as the Kararim gate (on the way to Tawergha) - where we had many victories. We managed to free a large number of families that were stranded in Temena and Kararim and revolutionaries managed to get as far as the Kararim gate which is only 15km from Tawergha (clashes with G forces are still going on now).

Revolutionaries promise that by tomorrow they will be able to get to Tawergha and help the citizens liberate themselves.

"What about the families that were stranded for a very long time in Ghiran, Dafniyah and other areas?

Many families were rescued today from Dafniyah and Ghiran, we also rescued a group of Christian Egyptians that were stuck. These Egyptian brothers were being held against their will with little food and water in the Dafniyah church. They were held for over 70 days along with other families and had no electricity and weren't allowed to get out. They are now being evacuated to Misrata's port and they thanked us.. they will be sent to their families as soon as possible.

We pay our respects to our martyrs and pray for them and we ask the cities close to Misrata to help us beat this tyrant. We also pray for the families that were stranded, because we saw what happened to them.. they were beaten, tortured, raped. We ask them to stay strong and also pray for their relatives, as some of them are still held hostage by Gaddafi forces

Misrata update... confirms that Misrata's outskirts are fully liberated now & that freedom fighters are 5-10 km away from Zliten & Tawergha

quote:

To clarify: This is Tawergha on google maps: http://goo.gl/AWAZg - It is the area west of "Qaryat as Sawadiq"

Also reports of lots of explosions in Tripoli at the moment, confirmed by journalists in the Rixos hotel.

[edit] This was posted on Twitter by Guma El-Gamaty

quote:

Alkhweldi intelligence command centre in zawia street in tripoli was hit by NATO few minutes ago causing a huge explosion and large fire

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 23:25 on May 13, 2011

# ? May 13, 2011 23:21

Darth Brooks: Jan 15, 2005; I do not wear this mask to protect me. I wear it to protect you from me.

Brown Moses posted:

Any they deem legal.

Gaddafi reared his head:

quote:
�I am telling the coward crusaders that I am at a place you cannot reach and kill me,�

That's right, he's hiding his rear end from the coward crusaders. There is no bravery to his limit.

# ? May 14, 2011 03:44

Cable Guy: Jul 18, 2005; I don't expect any trouble, but we'll be handing these out later...; Slippery Tilde

quote:

Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi said in an audio recording broadcast on state television on Friday that he was in a place where NATO cannot reach and kill him.

�I am telling the coward crusaders that I am at a place you cannot reach and kill me,� he said in the recording broadcast on al-Jamahiriya television.

"Marco"

_"Polo"

# ? May 14, 2011 07:47

Casimir Radon: Aug 2, 2008

Brown Moses posted:

Gaddafi reared his head:

quote:
Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi said in an audio recording broadcast on state television on Friday that he was in a place where NATO cannot reach and kill him.

�I am telling the coward crusaders that I am at a place you cannot reach and kill me,� he said in the recording broadcast on al-Jamahiriya television.

# ? May 14, 2011 09:38

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

To make up for last nights dissapointment a bunch of videos:

The Trank - Rebel engineering at its best

Mass graves found in Libya

quote:

This mass grave was recently discovered in the area of Joudayam, west of Tripoli (Libya) near the Scouts forest. The civilians killed were from the city of Az-Zawia. The dead were moved by Gaddafi's forces from their graves in the city of Az-Zawia and hidden in Joudayam.

The bodies were dumped and lightly covered with dirt. The narrator is looking for the body of his dead brother, but most of the bodies are decaying.

The Hamza Tank Battalion in Misrata, post-NATO - I count about 30+ destroyed tanks and other vehicles.

A damaged mosque in Nalut

A fire started apparently by protesters in Tripoli yesterday

Compilation video from the start of the revolution - Some graphic images.

A Misrata Rebel shows his bag of tricks off to his friends

Video of rebels in Zintan, including interviews in English

Rebels destroying a Green Book statue in Al-Dafina, west of Misrata

Some pictures:
Vehicles captured and used by the Nafusa rebels

Rebel and kitty in Misrata

Very poorly parked tank in Misrata

Nafusa Thurs 05/12/11: photos of stranded migrant workers from Philippines freed by the rebels (full gallery):

# ? May 14, 2011 10:08

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Mark Stone, of Sky News, Tweeted some stuff about the airstrike in Brega that supposedly killed all those imans

quote:

Sky News has spoken to Dutch engineer who built Brega bunker in 1988. Coordinates he gave me match those given by #Libya govt of guesthouse.
Dutch engineer tells me there was a guest house next to bunker and they built another one above bunker in #Brega.
There is little doubt people were killed in strike. But our investigation backs up #NATO claim that it hit command & control bunker.

So either the regime purposely put a bunch of Imans on top of a military site, or they are just lying. Something else to note, if those people killed are soldiers it suggests it was in use, and now its never going to be used again, probably seriously limiting communication to forces in Brega.

Here's the NATO report for the 13th:

quote:

In Tripoli: 1 Command & Control Node.
In the vicinity of Tripoli: 2 Surface-To-Air Missile Launchers, 20 Armoured vehicle storage buildings.
In the vicinity of Misratah: 1 Armoured PersonnelCarrier, 4 Military Trucks.
In the vicinity of Al Qaryat: 4 Ammo Storages.
In the vicinity of Zintan: 1 Military
Vehicle.
In the vicinity of Brega: 2 Tanks.

It's interesting that the graveyard of dozens of tanks I posted earlier wasn't mentioned in any reports as far as I can tell, guess they leave those sorts of slaughters off their daily reports.

Here's a couple of good articles by CJ Chivers about the rebels in Misrata, one about the weapons used by the rebels, and one about the weapons used by Gaddafi's troops

quote:

The rebels have moved forward. Time will tell what it means, but perhaps a stalemate is cracking. Certainly some of the Qaddafi units in the field are showing signs of strain.

Even as the fight moves down the roads again, some of the sights are head-spinning. Today a rebel commander proudly � ok, maybe mischievously � pulled me aside to show me a new weapon. Have a look.

These are sections of scored pipe, packed with explosives and closed with plumbers� fittings to become home-made pineapple grenades. The commander, who does not want to have face shown, had a bag of them.

Or how about this? It�s a shotgun, sort of. Basically it�s a section of framing lumber fashioned into a stock, and joined to a threaded pipe (I mean, barrel) and outfitted with a simple home-made trigger. It has a cocking mechanism as well, which draws and locks back a spring-loaded firing pin that the trigger releases, causing this �weapon� to �fire.�

The young man who carried it volunteered a demonstration (short of firing it, which I asked him not to do, for ethical reasons). The barrel has to be unscrewed to load a single 12-gauge shell. Then it has to screwed back on tight for firing. Then it has be unscrewed anew for removing the spent shell and inserting another. Have a look at the sights. Oh, that�s right. There aren�t any sights.

Would you like to carry this weapon � range perhaps 40 or 50 yards, rate of fire perhaps a round every minute or two, aiming = instinctual, add windage as you see fit � against an army equipped with tanks, rockets, artillery, mortars and all manner of automatic weapons?

Libyans have turned out with most anything to fight in this revolution. Some might say this is foolishness. Others, including many of those who carry these virtually useless arms, say it is a sign of the intensity with which they want Qaddafi to go. Wherever you care to stand on that, this is what a civilian uprising looks like.

Now forget the weapons for a moment. Look more closely at these rebels. Look at their clothes. Really, look. We�ve covered the rebels� workshops and the grassroots ways that people of many skills have tried to help their city�s fighters. Their work goes on. More people seem to be joining the fight. And today the rebels were moving forward.

Based off the above information, this group of mercenaries are helping out the rebels:

quote:

The Libyan rebels� successful attack on the Misurata airport today created all sorts of unusual scenes, including this one, of Amhamad Darwish, in Ray-Ban knock-offs, and his friends, who were admiring his day�s take.

Happiness is a warm gun, right? Well, maybe. But not exactly. I�ll explain.

On Mr. Darwish�s right shoulder (your left) is a recent variant of the Russian AK-74, one of the many descendants of the old Kalashnikov line. Mr. Darwish had picked that rifle up some time back. Like almost all the firearms carried by rebels in Libya, it was liberated from government possession in recent months. At his left side? That�s a FN Herstal F2000, with underbarrel grenade launcher. It�s a relatively new NATO-standard weapon, made in Belgium, and it fires NATO-standard ammunition, the same 5.56-mm round as the American M-16 or M-4. Mr. Darwish took possession of that today after it was lost by a Qaddafi soldier as the rebels overwhelmed the airport.

I was the only journalist in sight around the airport for part of today, and when Mr. Darwish saw me he had his friend screech their pickup to a halt. He jumped out and ran over to ask what kind of strange rifle he had found. (How he suspected I might know, I cannot say.) Anyhow, I told him. Where is it from, he asked. I told him that, too. And what kind of ammunition does it fire? Same as NATO, I said.

He was dismayed. His questions were obvious enough. This came from NATO? NATO is giving Qaddafi guns with which to kill us?

Full stop here. The arms trade does not work exactly like that, at least not always. Sometimes arms are distributed in the alliance�s name and with the alliance�s authority. But usually arms are transfered state-to-state, or private party-to-state, or state-to-private party, and so on. These subtleties are lost on the roadside in a fast-moving war. When distilled, the story, in a rebel�s mind, after enduring two months of siege, is this: NATO gave our enemies some of their guns.

In this way, this F2000, in part because of its aesthetics (on appearance this can seem a fearsome-looking thing) had a way of focusing minds.

What�s an F2000 anyhow? I don�t have time today to discuss how it all works, but have a peek during this short intro. Mr. Darwish�s left pinkie, above, points to the integrated grenade launcher, which can fire a variety of 40-mm grenades. These are low-velocity and don�t make much noise when they leave the barrel. They sail more or less slowly and silenty toward their target with a golf-ball-like lob that ends with a crunching explosion that can kill a man many meters away. To the rebels, they were a particularly feared � and despised � type of ordnance on Tripoli Street. Their dud rate was significant, too, enough so that the city is littered with posters warning people not to touch the unexploded rounds still out there on the streets. (Though the dud rate is not the firearm�s fault.) Above and to the left is the rifle�s muzzle. The magazine is back behind the trigger. The F2000 has an odd and not universally popular make-up � a so-called bullpup design � and the rebels, many of them new to military firearms, puzzled over it intently.

Even though it�s a rough equivalent to an American M-4/grenade-launcher combination, it looks somehow especially dangerous, right? And that was enough for the rebels beside the airport, and for Mr. Darwish. Once he had showed his F2000 to me, and knew its name, he wandered the street showing it to all hands.

NATO, he said. NATO. F2000.

Let�s be clear. Colonel Qaddafi amassed huge arms stores, and most of what he piled up came from Russia, China and the former eastern bloc. But the West was in the arms-sales game in Libya, too. Spanish cluster munitions, French mortar rounds, American recoilless rifles and artillery pieces � these, too, have been in the stores. Along with these Belgian bullpups with their grenade launchers underneath. And let�s not expect intellectual consistency. Guns and minds often don�t work that way. Some of the rebels were dismayed today by the F2000, but they have taken a fondness to the American recoilless rifles they have seized, and also to their stocks of FN FALs � another Belgian design from the same firm that makes the F2000.

When this war is finished, there will be work for many researchers for many months or years, putting together a study of how good sense or scruples or vigilance (label it as you will) seemed to be suspended by East and West alike to arm a family and a military that would turn these weapons on their own. Those who track arms will likely watch the Libyan collection drift around Africa in the decades ahead. Was it all for the seduction of an oil-state�s easy cash?

Today the rebels were happy, because of scenes like this one, below, of the departure terminal at the airport, freshly cleared of Qaddafi soldiers. And they were pleased and proud of themselves as they took custody of many new weapons, to point back at the army of their country, which has been shelling their homes.

Several rebels have dropped by this evening and tonight to proclaim their joy. It was a good day for them, as long as you weren�t among the dead, and kept nettlesome questions at bay.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 13:35 on May 14, 2011

# ? May 14, 2011 13:25

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

The NYTimes also has this article where they talk to various captured Gaddafi soldiers and find out some interesting information about the state of the army. Here's some highlights:

quote:

On one hand, Libyan military units and militias went to war with clear material and organizational advantages, equipped with tanks, armored personnel carriers, artillery, rockets and vast stores of munitions. They arrived to battle with trained snipers and mortar, rocket and artillery crews.

On the other, the Libyan Defense Ministry thickened the ranks with veterans recalled to duty in poor physical condition and cadets with almost no combat training or experience.

quote:

�The commanders told us, �Stay here and we will be back with more ammunition,� � said a cadet who claimed to have been pressed into service as an untrained infantryman last month, and was assigned to the fight for this city�s center. �But they did not come back, and the rebels surrounded us and we had to put down our weapons and quit.�

quote:

One prisoner, a member of the 32 Reinforced Brigade of Armed People, a unit often called elite and which is led by Khamis Qaddafi, one of Colonel Qaddafi�s sons, said he was the third contingent of the brigade to be sent from Tripoli to Misurata.

The third group was sent, he said, after the first two suffered heavy casualties.

quote:

�When we came here we heard the fighters shouting all the time, �Allahu akbar!� � he said. �The officers told us the enemy was Al Qaeda and other terror groups from Syria and Tunisia. But we saw that they were Libyans.�

The soldier said that he had not put on the uniform to kill Libyans, and, after listening to Qaddafi mortar crews shell the city with cluster munitions, he slipped out of the building and hid in a shop. There he waited, he said, until he heard rebels nearby. Then he surrendered, turning over his rifle and two grenades.

quote:

The detention center that serves as these prisoners� current home was, until recent weeks, one of Misurata�s public schools. The prisoners live in classrooms in groups of 15 or 20. The school has running water, and part of its courtyard is a kitchen, where the prisoners cook for themselves.

The prisoners sleep on mattresses and have blankets, one set of clothes and little else beyond basic toiletries.

They also have religious pamphlets and Korans, provided by the de facto warden, a sheik who said that though Misurata was enraged at Colonel Qaddafi, some of these men were pressed unwillingly into service and must be treated with decency and respect.

Not all of them have been. Though in private those interviewed said they had been treated well since coming under the sheik�s care, and that the rebels now treated them well, many had been beaten severely at capture, by largely untrained rebels who had suffered in the siege and who knew little of the laws of war.

Several had also been shot through the front of the feet � a crime that was practiced by some rebels at the time these men were captured, apparently designed to keep the prisoners from resisting or running away.

quote:

Two rooms held the wounded � including men with infected limbs, a badly burned young man with dried blood caked to his teeth and one older soldier whose left leg had been amputated. Though their dressings appeared new, the conditions of some of these men were dire.

It sounds like Gaddafi forces aren't in much better condition then the rebels, and if the supposedly Elite units have be that badly beaten it suggests the units that are left aren't going to be the elites. It might suggest the rebels in Misrata have already defeated the best trained soldiers then can expect to go up against.

# ? May 14, 2011 13:49

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

This is a map of Misrata based of information from various sources:

These are examples of pigeons being released over Tripoli with rebel flags tied to their legs, one of the weird stories that came up on Twitter several days ago, this suggests it might be true:

A couple of videos from in and around Misrata airbase:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4E3pmwudnE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Biwuw3qEi3E

This is the most recent update I've got for progress in Misrata, from AFP:

quote:

Opposition has reportedly made new progress in their advance towards the eastern and western boundaries of the western port city of Misrata. An AFP correspondent said they had moved 20 kilometres in the east to reach the gates of Tavarga and in the west they reached the gates of the city of Zliten, their next main military target on the road to Tripoli.

Sky News also just posted this story about the bunker that was hit in Brega last night:

quote:

Nato 'Targeted Brega Bunker And Not Civilians'
The Libyan regime claims 11 imams who had gathered at the building there to pray for peace were killed in the attack and around 40 people were injured.

However, Nato said the building it was targeting was an underground bunker that had been "clearly identified as a command and control centre".

A Dutch engineer has told Sky News he built the bunker for Col Gaddafi in Brega in 1988 and confirmed that its coordinates match those of the area Nato targeted on Friday.

Freek Landmeter said it had been designed to resist an atomic bomb and to be used as a communication hub.

He added that some of the communication and intelligence equipment had been provided by various companies across Europe.

The Libyan government gave journalists these coordinates
But Mr Landmeter also revealed that he had been involved in the construction of a guesthouse on top of the bunker.

Nato said the bunker was being used to coordinate all the of the military activity in the east of the country.

It did not confirm that civilians were killed but said it "regrets any loss of life by innocent civilians" whenever it occurs.

Col Gaddafi has called the strike "cowardly".

"I tell the coward crusaders; I live in a place where you can't get to and kill me," he said. "I live in the hearts of millions."

Spokesman Mussa Ibrahim said: "This is the most horrendous, terrible attack so far. Last night Libyan TV were broadcasting live from a religious gathering of over 100 people in Brega town.

"After the gathering the religious leaders and civilians left and stayed in a guesthouse in Brega. Nato attacked the guesthouse at dawn today."

Two things I've learnt from this article, don't trust the Libyan government, never hire Freek Landmeter to build bunkers.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 15:13 on May 14, 2011

# ? May 14, 2011 15:07

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Rebels fighting towards Zliten yesterday:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivjZJA9WVzc
Raising the flag in Al-Dafnia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhueYnmPxPA
Al Krarim Battle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pY9pSROu4c
Al-Dafnia Battle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATtpzBXyIuQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yahjSH_oBCg

The Misrata rebels are really going crazy with Youtube today.

Angus Walker of ITV Tweeted from the funeral of the "Imans" killed in Brega:

quote:

NATO jet flew over 9 funerals in Tripoli - officials say the dead were imams killed by air strike but 2 men told me soldiers were in coffins
At funerals man spoke to me saying he hated Gaddafi and his cousin a soldier was one of those being buried
Another man told me his 51 yr old uncle also a soldier was killed weeks ago and was being buried today as soldiers fired volleys over graves
Around 400 people at funeral at al hanshir right by the sea
There were 9 coffins but there have been numerous explanations of who was in them
Whoever was buried may they rest in peace

Gaddafi's propaganda machine is looking really poo poo at the moment.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 17:34 on May 14, 2011

# ? May 14, 2011 17:04

Tarnek: Nov 4, 2009

Excellent updates. Really shows the extent of last week's battles, and how much the rebels want to win. Strategically, shouldn't the next move for the Misrata rebels be to avoid advancing west towards Zliten and instead securing territories to the south with the intention of eventually linking up with the rebels from the east?

Also, anyone who still criticizes the Nato intervention should be forced to watch some of these videos to get a sense of what the population is going through. Especially the one where someone is searching for his brother by the mass graves from Zawiyah with body parts showing through the sand.

# ? May 14, 2011 17:21

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 17:33

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

I've only been posting stuff that's either got pictures or videos, or has a professional newsreporter backing it up. There's plenty of other unconfirmed stuff on Twitter at the moment, reports of more defections, battles in Zliten, fighting in Zawiyah, Gaddafi's family trying to flee to other countries (Tunisia being the big one), and so on. It does seem that in the West Gaddafi is getting his arse kicked every day of the week, and it really feels things have swung in the favour of the rebels.

# ? May 14, 2011 17:39

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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