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The speech has been labeled "major", but it's doubtful that it will contain anything meaningful or new. I read somewhere that new Egyptian protests had begun recently but were shut down quickly by the military. What exactly is the state of Egypt currently?
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May 19, 2011 04:13
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Lascivious Sloth posted:Great article, I can completely get behind what he's saying. It shows how ideologically hypocritical Al-Qaeda is in essence. I agree with his comments on how things play out will help shape Jihadism in the future, but I think we're past the point of losing western interest or it becoming a civil war. NATO has really stepped up in the past 2 weeks, and more time only equals less resistance from Govt forces and more training for the rebels when the rebels are allowed to attack. It really shows how important it is for the West to stop supporting unpopular tyrants like Mubarak, the al-Sauds and the al-Khalifas of Bahrain, because it's easy to demonize tyrants, but not ordinary people fighting for their homes like the Libyan rebels. Gaddafi's also pretty westernized, that might have helped. I wonder what those jihadis think about the Bahraini crackdown. I assume the jihadis are Sunni, as well.
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May 19, 2011 05:31
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eSports Chaebol posted:Well, in many cases, some (though of course not all) of them are. And while those sorts of people might not be terribly popular in their own countries, they are the sorts of people whom we in America are most likely to hear about and are most likely to see held up as examples of legitimate alternatives to oppressive regimes. Nobody denies for example that Robert Mugabe is terrible dictator, but at least he doesn't support international sanctions on an already beleaguered Zimbabwe unlike the Democracy-Certified opposition leader, Morgan Tsvangirai. Yes. Anti-totalitarian government protesters in Iran, Belarus, and China are in favor of U.S. colonialism. Why else would they protest their clearly legitimate governments? It's obvious to them that they can't run their own countries and that they should depend upon our wise, tempered rule from afar.
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May 19, 2011 07:13
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Space Monster posted:Yes. Anti-totalitarian government protesters in Iran, Belarus, and China are in favor of U.S. colonialism. Why else would they protest their clearly legitimate governments? It's obvious to them that they can't run their own countries and that they should depend upon our wise, tempered rule from afar. Anti-totalitarian protestors hold a variety of different opinions, and even have different reasons to oppose their governments, because being against totalitarianism isn't much of a defining opinion in and of itself. What I'm saying is that those who have opinions most amenable to U.S. foreign policy interests are those portrayed the most favorably in the U.S. And given how U.S. foreign policy operates (i.e. not very nicely), those people generally don't have the best interest of their countrymen in mind as much as other protestors.
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May 19, 2011 08:45
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Lots of reports of shooting in Tripoli through out the night, and into the morning. Gaddafi and co are claiming it's celebratory gunfire, although journalists in the Rixos are saying it doesn't sound like it, especially as it's been going on all night. There were lots of Tweets about it throughout the night, obviously it's hard to verify any of this information, but here's a list of Tweets in order of time: quote:Stone_SkyNews: I can hear lots of gunfire outside the Rixos in Tripoli tonight. Not v close but certainly audible. Doesn't sound like celebratory. 8 hours ago quote:Stone_SkyNews: Very confusing messages at Rixos. We are told that groups from Benghazi have called state tv to say they support #Gaddafi .... 8 hours ago quote:ilibico In tripoli gunfire and clashes in fashloum and tajura. Not sure if journalists at Rixos can here atleast fashloum clashes 8 hours ago quote:Thanku4theAnger: LPC Tripoli: Epic Clashes taking place in Tripoli from around 20 mins. Very intense. It's everywhere quote:Stone_SkyNews @Guma_el_gamaty can hear lots of gunfire from Rixos. Can't tell direction or distance. 7 hours ago quote:libyanproud: BREAKING/EMERGENCY : phone call to syahya in #tripoli , loud screaming of men and women , lots of gunshots, started 01:00 and ongoing quote:LibyansVoice: Libyan Youth Movement Gun fire being heard in Tripoli, quite a few reports say they hear it from Bab al Azizia (gaddafi's compound) 7 hours ago quote:Tripolitanian: BREAKING: Source says intense gunfire in various locations in #Tripoli, anti-#Gaddafi protests near city center. 7 hours ago quote:EEE_Libya: Friends in Tripoli just called and told us to celebrate... sounds a bit overzealous but still exciting nonetheless 7 hours ago quote:Tripolitanian: Very intense gun-fire being heard in Soug aljum3a (phonetic) district of #Tripoli 7 hours ago quote:Tripolitanian: Source in #Tripoli says there are stray bullets hitting apartment buildings near city center!! omg, omg....... quote:LbrlOkie77: Just come down from roof top.... LOTS of gun fire around tripoli!! Source in Tripoli 7 hours ago quote:Sorin129 @mushuthalohari @rima_misurata and even @libyanswb saying there is lots of gunfire in Tripoli. They normally always saying is pretty quiet 7 hours ago quote:AlmanaraMedia: Reports that FF of #Tripoli have shot gun fire at the Television building window glass while Shakeer was broadcasting live 7 hours ago quote:anguswalkeritv: #Tripoli all seems to be celebratory gunfire - not battles - state TV claiming to be showing pro Gaddafi celebrations in Benghazi quote:AlmanaraMedia: 15 minutes ago: Reports of heavy gun fire heard in AlMajaheri area in Tajoura 6 hours ago quote:Tripolitanian: There is still gun-fire even now.. I kinda wish I was in #Tripoli.. 6 hours ago quote:LibyaOfPeace: #Tripoli:the reason behind all these heavy Pro-G demos are to hide an on-going attack on Gaddafi's compound tonight that is ongoing 6 hours ago quote:Stone_SkyNews @anguswalkeritv @sorin129 agree. A few hours ago it sounded different. What we are hearing now around Rixos is celebratory. 6 hours ago quote:Stone_SkyNews Lots of UNCONFIRMED reports of clashes in areas away from Rixos. Is what we at seeing and hearing a diversion? I dont know. 6 hours ago quote:Inphinite_: Pretty intense gunfire in #Janzour tonight - concentrated near bigshot #Gaddafi right hand man 6 hours ago quote:LibyansWB: #Tripoli : gunfires are still going on in Janzur, Gergaresh, Gorji, Sriim, Dahra, Ben Ashour, Soug al joma'a, hadba and hai dimashiq 6 hours ago quote:Libya_United: Over the phone it wasn't constant gunfire but I was able to hear audible gunfire at least twice. 6 hours ago quote:RRowleyTucson #Tripoli: There are shouts of 'Down with the Regime!' on Matar (Airport) street. Shots fired in #Gaddafi's Aziziyah compound. - There's no reports of who was doing the shooting and what their aims were, so hopefully there will be some news from Tripoli about what actually happened last night. [edit]ChangeInLibya is posting some stuff in the last 5 minutes about what happened last night: quote:There were plenty of clashes in Tripoli last night and one (trustworthy) source says that some 200+ FF prisoners were freed. Tripoli: Some of the injured people (rghly 200) that were kidnapped from hospitals by Gaddafi were freed yesterday in Tripoli [edit]A little more from ChangeInLibya: quote:Tripoli: Some homes belonging to officers and soldiers responsible for kidnappings in the city were set on fire yesterday Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 10:55 on May 19, 2011 |
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May 19, 2011 09:24
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ChangeInLibya is posting a translation of the Misrata update from May 18th:quote:In the early morning, freedom fighters started to attack the western and eastern fronts of Misrata simultaneously.
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May 19, 2011 10:03
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Live blogs May 19th Guardian AJE LibyaFeb17.com quote:Mark Stone says that lots of gunfire could be heard in Tripoli, it didn’t sound celebratory. He adds that there are many unconfirmed reports of clashes in various areas. State TV reported that groups in Benghazi pledged their allegiance to Gaddafi, which was followed by celebratory gunfire in Tripoli. “Is what we at seeing and hearing a diversion? I dont know,” he wrote. quote:According to a Tunisian security source, Gaddafi’s wife and daughter crossed into Tunisia. The Tunisian Interior Ministry denied that any members of the Gaddafi family were in the country in remarks to Al Jazeera and Al Arabiya TV. Al Jazeera quoted a ministry spokesman as saying Tunisia would arrest any members of the Gaddafi family should they enter the country under a U.N.-imposed travel ban. A Libyan opposition source said the women were in Djerba to accompany Aisha’s husband, who he said had been injured in the Libyan conflict, and was seeking treatment in Tunisia quote:A tape recorded by Osama bin Laden before his death, in which he praises the Arab spring protest movement, has been released posthumously onto Islamist militant websites, writes Jason Burke. Bin Laden and friends think these sort of uprisings will inevitably lead to radical Islamic governments in those countries. quote:Egypt has suspended the prison sentences of 120 people who participated in protests following the revolution that toppled President Hosni Mubarak. quote:Obama's speech is due to start at 11.40am (EDT) 4.40pm (BST). After the speech the White House is organising a Twitter chat with national security adviser Ben Rhodes.
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May 19, 2011 10:41
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Brown Moses posted:
No mention of the
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May 19, 2011 13:25
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Lascivious Sloth posted:
IMF and World Bank loan guarantees have historically worked against democratic interests in countries, rather than helping them. Also rather bizarre that the US is cancelling $1b in debt and then opening up a new line of $1b in credit to Egypt while continuing to provide aid money. I'll be interesting to see what Egypt's pound of flesh will be a decade from now. On a different topic, Saturday is the 61st day of US military involvement in Libya.
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May 19, 2011 13:34
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Martin Chulov of the Guardian sent in an interesting audio report, the following part of that report reflects the change in momentum in Libya:quote:There has been significant damage done both in terms of the front lines and in terms of the command and control centres here in Tripoli. This has put a sense of trepidation into regime officials here. It could have contributed to the string of recent defections. There does seem to have been a toll taken on the capacity of bureaucrats to get things done. We seem to be in a new phase of this conflict. It is not heading towards an immediate end, however it does seem to have stepped up in recent days. Another Twitter report from Tripoli: quote:1- Clashes between armed anti-regime activists and katiba forces in Shara3 Jamhuriya (Jamhuriya Street) If there's more violence tonight in Tripoli then it might suggest it's the start of something big there.
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May 19, 2011 14:02
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It seems that the wave of revolution is reaching southern Europe now as well: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/05/201151903517791235.html This could be great news  .
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May 19, 2011 14:11
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A Stranger posted:It seems that the wave of revolution is reaching southern Europe now as well: So, inspired by their arab fellows, the spaniards are rising up to topple their tyrannical, elected government. Yes, this event will truly herald in the long-awaited democratic revolution in Europe.
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May 19, 2011 14:24
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Mr. Sunshine posted:So, inspired by their arab fellows, the spaniards are rising up to topple their tyrannical, elected government. Yes, this event will truly herald in the long-awaited democratic revolution in Europe. Psst, the arab spring revolutions are as much about economic conditions as lack of democracy. Spain's economic conditions are poo poo right now.
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May 19, 2011 14:55
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AJA is reporting a very large build up of rebels soldiers and supplies outside of Brega, sounds like they are preparing for a push, probably so they can reach Sirte at the same time as the rebels in the west.
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May 19, 2011 15:01
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Wiz posted:Psst, the arab spring revolutions are as much about economic conditions as lack of democracy. Spain's economic conditions are poo poo right now. But it's not because of Zapatero stealing billions to build palaces while keeping the populace poor.
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May 19, 2011 15:22
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eSports Chaebol posted:And given how U.S. foreign policy operates (i.e. not very nicely), those people generally don't have the best interest of their countrymen in mind as much as other protestors. Just because America's foreign policy is complete poo poo (and it is) doesn't mean that protesters in Iran and China don't have the best interests of their countrymen at heart. That what we do around the globe is criminal doesn't excuse the misdeeds of more oppressive regimes, no matter what they say about us. Torture, for example, is wrong no matter who does it. It doesn't become right if it's at the behest of "anti-colonial" regimes.
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May 19, 2011 15:31
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Wiz posted:Psst, the arab spring revolutions are as much about economic conditions as lack of democracy. Spain's economic conditions are poo poo right now. The word "revolution" tends to mean the overthrow of the current regime and the restructuring of society. In your opinion, are the goals of the current spanish protests to: A) Usher in the creation of the Glorious People's Anarcho-Syndicalist Republic of Greater Iberia or B) Get the current government to be less assholish about the economy? Comparing the economic woes of Europe with the conditions that the arabs are rising up against is quite frankly insulting to all parties involved. E: If you think that somehow the protests in Spain are related to the Arab Spring you might as well go all out and claim that the entire Arab Spring started with the riots in Athens. Mr. Sunshine fucked around with this message at 15:43 on May 19, 2011 |
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May 19, 2011 15:40
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If that's true the best thing that came out of this was the video of that cop getting nailed in the face with a molotov.
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May 19, 2011 16:11
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t3ch3 posted:IMF and World Bank loan guarantees have historically worked against democratic interests in countries, rather than helping them. Also rather bizarre that the US is cancelling $1b in debt and then opening up a new line of $1b in credit to Egypt while continuing to provide aid money. I'll be interesting to see what Egypt's pound of flesh will be a decade from now. No more than it would be if we did nothing. There's also considerably greater appreciation for how these loans should be used than there has been in the past (and when they shouldn't be used). It's also generally in the US's interest for these to work: we don't really want client states over there anymore (or if we do, that ship has sailed), we want the region to settle down. That's best done by giving people what they want: a better standard of living and more freedoms.
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May 19, 2011 16:18
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Mr. Sunshine posted:The word "revolution" tends to mean the overthrow of the current regime and the restructuring of society. Revolutions never reconstruct the entirety of society, often times just facets of it which are in danger and pose a serious threat to its stability, such as freedom, the political system, the economy, etc.. Although Spain's current uprising seems like a drop in the bucket compared to Libya's bloody civil war or Egypt's mess, it's still an uprising and a call for revolution. Only, what its demanding is a better economy, something that the government can and should be keeping under control. Spain's immediate condition is a throwback to a long process of increasing disparity of wealth between the rich and the middle-low class http://uk.reuters.com/article/2009/04/08/uk-spain-soupkitchen-idUKTRE53702920090408, much like what's been going on in the US and many other heavily corporate countries for quite a while. In addition, you can't have a society without some form of economy, since after all the economy is the part of society that literally "delivers the goods" people need. Spain is the 12th largest economy in the world so it really doesn't have any excuse for its lovely broken system in terms of wealth. It's just that the economy's been geared into delivering "the goods" directly towards the rich and upper class, and you can guess which people have the power and the motive to pull that off.
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May 19, 2011 16:20
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Obama's speech on the Arab Spring and the Middle East is starting soon, there's rumours he's making some big announcement about Israel and Palestine, gonna hazard a guess and say it's probably not going to be anything to piss off the Israeli's.
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May 19, 2011 16:45
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Brown Moses posted:Obama's speech on the Arab Spring and the Middle East is starting soon, there's rumours he's making some big announcement about Israel and Palestine, gonna hazard a guess and say it's probably not going to be anything to piss off the Israeli's. At worst it will be 'uuuh, maybe stop murdering your citizens too guys, maybe also stop building homes in the ruins of Palestinian houses?' and in ten minutes Obama will be called a nazi anti-Semite monster who wants to personally bomb Israel into dust.
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May 19, 2011 16:58
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edit: nevermind
Cable Guy fucked around with this message at 17:22 on May 19, 2011 |
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May 19, 2011 17:15
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There's claims that Tawergha has been captured by the rebels, bar one or two buildings with Gaddafi soldiers trapped inside. That's the last built up area south of Misrata, next I expect the rebels will try to capture the nearby airport, then they can block two major roads to Sirte.
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May 19, 2011 18:18
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Brown Moses posted:Obama's speech on the Arab Spring and the Middle East is starting soon, there's rumours he's making some big announcement about Israel and Palestine, gonna hazard a guess and say it's probably not going to be anything to piss off the Israeli's. The announcement that the borders should be based on the 1967 borders is going to piss off Israel.
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May 19, 2011 18:20
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eSports Chaebol posted:Anti-totalitarian protestors hold a variety of different opinions, and even have different reasons to oppose their governments, because being against totalitarianism isn't much of a defining opinion in and of itself. What I'm saying is that those who have opinions most amenable to U.S. foreign policy interests are those portrayed the most favorably in the U.S. And given how U.S. foreign policy operates (i.e. not very nicely), those people generally don't have the best interest of their countrymen in mind as much as other protestors. So anyone that we here in the Evil West like are actually ogres who will destroy their countries. Excellent. It sounds to me like we should enforce regime change in the entire middle east, in order to put Muslim extremists and Stalin-style communists in charge!
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May 19, 2011 18:27
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A good way to bring Israel to the table is threaten to cut off funding. I have to wonder how much of Obama's "Israel needs to defend itself" was to that effect.
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May 19, 2011 18:35
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Space Monster posted:So anyone that we here in the Evil West like are actually ogres who will destroy their countries. No, not really. Things aren't black and white like that.
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May 19, 2011 19:00
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TheOmegaWalrus posted:A good way to bring Israel to the table is threaten to cut off funding. Ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Oh my god, he got eviscerated for saying 'woah dudes, pause settlements for a bit in lands you don't really own', can you imagine what would happen if he tried to cut their funding by even a dollar? He's never going to do that, no president will, it's that, or say 'maybe we shouldn't have an economy based around blowing up and torturing our enemies' as the two sure fire ways to kill your political career in America.
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May 19, 2011 19:03
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eSports Chaebol posted:No, not really. Things aren't black and white like that. That's his point. You're judging opposition movements solely on how the Evil West perceives them. It's something the political version of a hipster would do.
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May 19, 2011 19:07
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King Dopplepopolos posted:That's his point. You're judging opposition movements solely on how the Evil West perceives them. It's something the political version of a hipster would do. I was trying to explain why it is that people judge movements based on their relation to the West. Judging things on what the West supports alone is hardly sound reasoning, but it isn't random and there are reasons people use Western interests as a clue even when it should only be one thing to consider among many. Being at least provisionally wary of Western influence is far from the least accurate starting point for assumptions, even in cases where both sides are bad, like the Mujahadeen and the Soviet Union.
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May 19, 2011 19:15
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Mr. Sunshine posted:E: If you think that somehow the protests in Spain are related to the Arab Spring you might as well go all out and claim that the entire Arab Spring started with the riots in Athens. According to Tom Friedman, it was caused by Barack Obama, Google Earth and the Beijing Olymics and no joke, what a great place Israel is. And this version can't even get that ridiculous. eSports Chaebol posted:Being at least provisionally wary of Western influence is far from the least accurate starting point for assumptions Based on your username and avatar, does that mean you think North Korea's on the right track, and the South Korean government needs to be overthrown for its close ties to the US? The X-man cometh fucked around with this message at 19:18 on May 19, 2011 |
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May 19, 2011 19:15
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el samayo grande posted:Based on your username and avatar, does that mean you think North Korea's on the right track, and the South Korean government needs to be overthrown for its close ties to the US? No. Based on your post, do you oppose the South Korean government because it has abandoned the dictatorial ways of Syngman Rhee? I'm sure you don't. What's the point of these silly insinuations? edit: To clarify, the Korean peninsula is an enlightening example because while South Korea is obviously far freer today than North Korea, the strongman the U.S. supported in South Korea to oppose Communism was hardly a huge fan of human rights! It's not as simple as "U.S. good, other guys bad" or "U.S. bad, other guys good". eSports Chaebol fucked around with this message at 19:29 on May 19, 2011 |
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May 19, 2011 19:24
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eSports Chaebol posted:No. Based on your post, do you oppose the South Korean government because it has abandoned the dictatorial ways of Syngman Rhee? I'm sure you don't. What's the point of these silly insinuations? Then why is it imperialistic for the US military to support the rebels in Libya but not when they're defending South Korea? I support both missions, but you seem to have a double standard there.
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May 19, 2011 19:29
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el samayo grande posted:Then why is it imperialistic for the US military to support the rebels in Libya but not when they're defending South Korea? I support both missions, but you seem to have a double standard there. He hasn't demonstrated any double standard, you just don't want to see the U.S. as possibly supporting bad policy at all!
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May 19, 2011 19:35
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el samayo grande posted:Then why is it imperialistic for the US military to support the rebels in Libya but not when they're defending South Korea? I support both missions, but you seem to have a double standard there. I think U.S. support for rebels really is partially based on a misguided sense of humanitarianism, similar to intervention in Kosovo; that doesn't mean such intervention is going to have a good outcome or is entirely sincere and divorced from our opposition to Qadaffi as an anti-American leader and self-styled leader of African socialism. Of course even this is further complicated by Qadaffi's compliance in the War on Terror, and that in his fervor to support rebels in Africa of any stripe that he has even helped train imperialist darlings like Blaise Compaore. And then on top of this there is the issue of access to Libyan resources. And hell, even the Korean War wasn't so clear-cut. After all, things are pretty terrible in half the Korean peninsula today, and while it's mostly Kim Jong Il's fault, that doesn't mean the state of affairs today is the best possible outcome.
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May 19, 2011 19:35
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eSports Chaebol posted:And hell, even the Korean War wasn't so clear-cut. After all, things are pretty terrible in half the Korean peninsula today, and while it's mostly Kim Jong Il's fault, that doesn't mean the state of affairs today is the best possible outcome. I'm sorry we aren't good enough at war for you. You seem to be making an attempt at being reasonable, but your opinion of 'anyone who the U.S. views as good must be bad!' is just not. Our government doesn't have pure as the driven snow motives, but whose does? In the case of Libya, Obama was forced to move because public opinion was so in favor of, if not helping the rebels, then at least stopping Gaddafi from massacring half of the country in retribution for revolting. The rebels seem to be pro-democracy, which is kind of the best we can hope for. There's not really a way to be sure. If seeming to be pro-democracy is also pro-US, then I guess the rest of the world should revert back to absolute monarchies? (your avatar is hilarious btw, I'm assuming that's a reaction shot of him losing an army to spider mines?)
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May 19, 2011 19:55
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Space Monster posted:I'm sorry we aren't good enough at war for you. I don't agree with that opinion. I agree with you that it is an unreasonable opinion. But people who welcome U.S. intervention in their countries should be eyed suspiciously even though they may turn out to have the best intentions, and the Libyan rebels are no exception. quote:Our government doesn't have pure as the driven snow motives, but whose does? In the case of Libya, Obama was forced to move because public opinion was so in favor of, if not helping the rebels, then at least stopping Gaddafi from massacring half of the country in retribution for revolting. The rebels seem to be pro-democracy, which is kind of the best we can hope for. There's not really a way to be sure. If seeming to be pro-democracy is also pro-US, then I guess the rest of the world should revert back to absolute monarchies? When there isn't a way to be sure, I think that "First, do no harm" is a better policy than "First, drop bombs." It probably would have been wise to realize that we were picking sides in a civil war instead of backing a broad revolution before diving it. Hell, we won't even admit that that's what we're doing. And what will the outcome be if the rebels win? Will NATO stand by and let reprisals happen like they did in Kosovo? It seems pretty likely to be honest. quote:(your avatar is hilarious btw, I'm assuming that's a reaction shot of him losing an army to spider mines?) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y39Lv142-B0#t=21m38s
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May 19, 2011 20:04
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eSports Chaebol posted:
True, but how is this the fault of the UN/US forces? Plenty of blood and capital was spent trying to build South Korea into the country it is today. Obviously the US had less than altruistic motives, but so did the Soviets/Chinese.
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May 19, 2011 20:05
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automatic posted:True, but how is this the fault of the UN/US forces? Plenty of blood and capital was spent trying to build South Korea into the country it is today. Obviously the US had less than altruistic motives, but so did the Soviets/Chinese. They might have failed, but I bet diplomatic and even military attempts to settle the division of Korea other than staging a proxy war between the world's greatest powers on a tiny peninsula would have had a better outcome, even if it only meant for example that North Korea would still be a totalitarian state but at least one with much better living conditions for its people.
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May 19, 2011 20:09
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