Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

GCC has officially abandoned the Yemen talks, which makes it look like we're approaching the end game, although I incorrectly predicted that months ago.

There's also reports that thugs loyal to Saleh were responsible to a female opposition activist in Sana'a being burned to death, but there's limited info in english or arabic on that.

edit: oh yeah, terrorist attack on naval base in Karachi, though that's only tangentially related to this thread.

Xandu fucked around with this message at 21:36 on May 22, 2011

# ? May 22, 2011 21:32

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# ? May 13, 2024 20:51

TheOmegaWalrus: Feb 3, 2007; by Hand Knit

There are rumors going around that the attack on Karachi was foreign lead, and maybe in response the the sweet new jets China gave Pakistan.

Also rumored is China giving the "an attack on Pakistan is an attack on us" line. Given that Obama has said he'd send in troops if the Pakistan's nuclear arsenal is threatened, this seems like a bad mix. Flashbacks of cold war satellite countries. Trying to find something resembling a real source before I call these anything credible.

e: http://tribune.com.pk/story/173888/blast-on-dalmia-road/

Attackers were armed with "sophisticated weapons". PK TV says night vision goggles.

TheOmegaWalrus fucked around with this message at 22:18 on May 22, 2011

# ? May 22, 2011 22:05

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

Humanitarian:

quote:

A ship loaded with food and medical supplies docked on Sunday in Misurata, the Libyan rebels' main toehold in the west of the country.

The ship was chartered by the International Organisation for Migration and had departed the rebel stronghold of Benghazi on Friday.

As it arrived at the damaged port of Misrata on Saturday evening, trucks immediately started to offload the much needed supplies of food and medicine.

War:

quote:

According to opposition forces, Gaddafi forces attempted to retake the Tunisian border crossing. There were heavy clashes between the two sides where one rebel and nine Gaddafi soldiers were killed.

Gaddafi forces have since retreated, and continue to stay in Reyayna, about 3 km northeast of Tintan.

quote:

A French military spokesman says a French amphibious assault ship set sail from the port of Toulon last week, but he declined to confirm a French newspaper report that the helicopter-carrying ship was heading to battle in Libya.

Military spokesman Thierry Burkhard told AP that the ship, Le Tonnerre, left port on May 17. Burkhard described the vessel as a command and force projection ship.

The French Navy's website says the ship can carry up to 16 military helicopters.

French daily newspaper Le Figaro said in a story posted on its website that the Tonnerre was carrying 12 helicopters and was sailing for the Libyan coast.

Diplomatic:

quote:

Benghazi, Libya
For immediate release

Catherine Ashton opens European Union office in Benghazi

Catherine Ashton, EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security

Policy/Commission Vice-President, will open an EU office in Benghazi on Sunday.
The office will be initially located in the Tibesti Hotel in central Benghazi which is home to UN and international agencies, the EU's Humanitarian Aid Agency ECHO and diplomats from national governments, therefore providing perfect synergies and coordination with the international community.

The office will foster EU assistance in coordination with Member States and other international organisations.

"I am delighted to be travelling to Benghazi to open the EU Office which I announced to the European Parliament," Catherine Ashton said.

"It will be an honour to meet the people who have been fighting for democracy and a better future for Libya. I plan to meet key people from the National Transitional Council, civil society groups and our international partners, and will report back to EU Foreign Ministers on Monday. Opening an EU Office is an important signal of our unfaltering support for the Libyan people. It is the EU putting words into action."

Following her announcement in the European Parliament, Catherine Ashton deployed an EEAS team under Agostino Miozzo, Managing Director for Crisis Response and Coordination, on Thursday to set up the office.

Catherine Ashton will officially open the EU Office at 1400 local time on Sunday at the Tibesti Hotel. A press conference will be held afterwards. She will also make a statement after her meeting with the NTC at 1100 local time at the NTC Headquarters.

# ? May 22, 2011 23:28

OwlBot 2000: Jun 1, 2009

TheOmegaWalrus posted:

There are rumors going around that the attack on Karachi was foreign lead, and maybe in response the the sweet new jets China gave Pakistan.

Also rumored is China giving the "an attack on Pakistan is an attack on us" line. Given that Obama has said he'd send in troops if the Pakistan's nuclear arsenal is threatened, this seems like a bad mix. Flashbacks of cold war satellite countries. Trying to find something resembling a real source before I call these anything credible.

e: http://tribune.com.pk/story/173888/blast-on-dalmia-road/

Attackers were armed with "sophisticated weapons". PK TV says night vision goggles.

One hopes it would take more than ten men to overtake a military base, even in a country like Pakistan. I mean, that kind of thing should take at least 200 people, right, and some inside help?

# ? May 22, 2011 23:35

Verizian: Dec 18, 2004; The spiky one.

They didn't exactly take over anything. They blew up some crap then got shuttled into a building and are now surrounded by the looks of things.
One plane lightly damaged and 5 deaths with 4 large explosions is an attack but probably not a successful one if they're all captured or killed.

# ? May 22, 2011 23:43

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

The news of that French amphibious assault ship is interesting. I'm trying to figure what other mission an amphibious assault/helicopter carrier can provide other than forming beachheads?

# ? May 23, 2011 00:24

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Young Freud posted:

The news of that French amphibious assault ship is interesting. I'm trying to figure what other mission an amphibious assault/helicopter carrier can provide other than forming beachheads?

It was used against Gbagbo in Ivory Coast I think. As said, it can host 16 helicopters (8 NH90s and 8 Tigers usually), 110 armored vehicles and 450 passengers. It's got a 69-bed hospital and can be used to evacuate people or deliver supplies.

("BPC Tonnerre" should get you plenty GIS results)

pylb fucked around with this message at 00:51 on May 23, 2011

# ? May 23, 2011 00:46

Paradox Personified: Mar 15, 2010; SoroScrew

No, not backwards..

Sherief Farouk posted:

Egypt has never had Internet filtering in place, but thanks to its new post-#Jan25 Minister of Communication, it will. #RevolutionBackwards

# ? May 23, 2011 01:46

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Nice article on how smugglers have kept Misarata supplied with food, weapons, and medicine.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/23/world/africa/23smuggling.html?hp

edit: Provides some evidence that NATO is tolerating weapons smuggling.
edit2: nevermind, it all seems to be smuggling weapons looted from Gaddafi in Benghazi.

Xandu fucked around with this message at 02:29 on May 23, 2011

# ? May 23, 2011 02:20

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

From what I'm reading the reason the French helicopters are being brought in is that NATO are having trouble monitoring the rapidly changing frontlines and Nafusa and near Misrata, and they are having trouble seeing who is who, so helicopters should make it alot easier to identify targets and take rapid action.

A couple of days ago I read NATO had told the rebels south of Misrata to stop advancing, so it might have been because they were waiting for the helicopters to arrive so they could support the rebel advance towards Sirte from Misrata without risking any friendly fire incidents. It looks like there's a lot of open terrain between the rebel positions south of Misrata and Sirte, so they might advance quite rapidly once they are supported by helicopters.

# ? May 23, 2011 10:33

Ham: Apr 30, 2009; You're BALD!

Paradox Personified posted:

No, not backwards..

Egypt's always had internet filtering but before the revolution it was only aimed at any Egyptian political blogs or websites.

# ? May 23, 2011 11:20

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Live Blogs May 23rd
Feb17.info
Feb17.com
Guardian
AJE

War

quote:

France is deploying attack helicopters in Libya, the first to be used in the allied offensive against forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi, French media reported on Monday.

Twelve helicopters were shipped out to Libya on French battleship Tonnerre on May 17, Le Figaro newspaper reported, in a bid to step up strikes against pro-Gaddafi forces and end a stalemate in the fighting.

�Using helicopters from the Tonnerre is a way of getting closer to the ground,� the newspaper cited a source close to the matter as saying.

quote:

France and other coalition countries are to start deploying military helicopters in Libya, a French diplomatic source has told Reuters:

quote:
It is not just French helicopters ... it's coordinated action by the coalition. It is at Nato level.

The source's comments follow a newspaper report in Le Figaro that France was sending a dozen helicopters to Libya. The source was keen to dispel notions of mission creep by saying the move could not be considered as part of a strategy to use ground troops in the conflict

quote:

@benwedeman: Intense NATO bombing outside Misrata. Multiple sorties, explosions shaking the windows kilometres away.

Reports of opposition fighters advancing on the Dafnia front west of Misrata.

quote:

One of the reasons for the rebels' success in Misrata is "a determined and surreptitious sealift by a small fleet of Libyan boats", the New York Times writes in an interesting insight into how the opposition has managed to withstand the siege by Gaddafi forces:

quote:
Combining the talents of those who procure a city's wartime needs with those of merchant mariners and fishermen, rebels have organized about two dozen fishing vessels and former Qaddafi-controlled tugboats into an impromptu fleet that has provided Misurata with a lifeline of supplies. The fleet sails with Nato's approval and support. (Rebels and organizers in both Benghazi and Misurata spoke openly of the smuggling effort, but asked that certain locations and shipping schedules not be disclosed.)

At a basic level, it has assumed missions of both mercy and war. The mixed cargo � baby formula and medicine beside crates of ammunition � has helped civilians survive and equipped Misurata for its fight.

The Times says the efforts are co-ordinated in Benghazi, from a makeshift operations centre:

quote:
At first, to learn how to evade what they expected would be a Gaddafi military or coast guard effort to stop the fleet, the rebels met with criminal groups that moved contraband through Libya.

"We tried to reach the people who smuggle drugs to other countries, and they helped us learn how to take things to Misurata by sea," said Alaadin Alsharkasy, one of the organizers.

Once NATO began to help the rebels, the Gaddafi navy became hesitant to patrol � so the risks of being intercepted at sea declined, and the organisers focused on getting supplies.

quote:

Forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi shelled neighbourhoods in the west and south of the Libyan city of Misrata on Monday, a rebel spokesman and a witness said, adding that explosions were also heard in the port area.

Rebels say they have pushed Gaddafi�s forces 25 km (15 miles) from the centre of the city after weeks of street fighting and bombardment.

Shelling began at around 8 a.m., he said. He said rebel forces were blocking the advance for the moment, but were coming under heavy pressure from the shelling and the presence of at least two tanks of the front line.

Abdelsalam said one rebel had been killed. The body of rebel fighter Youssef al-Aidi was brought from the frontline to Hekmat Hospital in Misrata.

Aidi has been hit in the head by an RPG rocket from 25 km west of Misrata, where a column of five Gaddafi tanks and some 50 men had advanced on the rebels� position.

A rebel fighter with Aidi said Gaddafi forces had been bombing the rebels� frontline with tank shells and Grad rockets since 5 a.m. The rebels say fighting there has been static for about two weeks.

�We�re fighting defensively here, we�re not pushing forward. We�re waiting for our brothers in Zlitan to call us. They have their own uprising there,� said Taha al-Golib.

Zlitan lies some 40 km west of Misrata and is held by Gaddafi�s forces.

�It is difficult to see how Gaddafi forces can re-enter Misrata because the rebels have good defence lines and NATO aircraft are always overhead,� Abdelsalam said.

�But they are definitely trying. The rebels are 10-15 km away from Zlitan and Gaddafi�s forces feel they have to do something.�

�Their strategy is to keep Misrata on the edge, to sow terror,� Abdelsalam said. �Gaddafi doesn�t want the residents or the freedom fighters in Misrata to breathe a sigh of relief.�

A second witness in the city confirmed heavy shelling in the Dafinia region, 30 km to the west of the city centre, and reported explosions in the port area. He said rebels clashed with Gaddafi forces in Dafinia on Sunday, destroying a tank.

Diplomacy

quote:

The head of Libya�s opposition has arrived for talks with Turkish leaders in a sign of improving ties after Turkey urged Moammar Gadhafi to step down and withdrew its diplomats from Tripoli.

Turkey�s Foreign Ministry says Mustafa Abdul-Jalil, chairman of Libya�s National Transitional Council, will meet Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu and President Abdullah Gul on Monday to discuss latest developments in Libya as well as co-ordination of humanitarian aid supplies by Turkey.

The leaders are not expected to make any public remarks.

Turkey initially balked at the idea of military action in Libya, but as a NATO member it is helping to enforce an arms embargo on Libya and volunteered to lead humanitarian aid efforts.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 11:54 on May 23, 2011

# ? May 23, 2011 11:30

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Nic Robertson of CNN is currently in Zintan, one of the only journalists there, and is Tweeting regulary on @NicRobertsonCNN. Here's some of his recent Tweets:

quote:

More shells fired by Gadhafi forces.. Just counted another dozen heavy explosions.. Strong enough to shake this building we're in

Rebels in Zintan say NATO struck 2 of Gadhafi forces' grad launchers in Jadu around mid-day.. say not connected to shelling we heard.
Zintan fighters say Gadhafi launchers were struck minutes after they had fired missiles
We're told grads fired by Gadhafi forces on Zintan landed harmlessly in fields.. strikes seem to be over for the moment

ZIntan update: rebel leaders say some grads just fired at Zintan DID land in city - hitting market near hospital. But said no casualties

# ? May 23, 2011 13:56

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Things have got violent in Yemen thanks to Saleh's refusal to sign the GCC agreement:

quote:

A heavy gun battle has erupted between embattled President Saleh's security forces and fighters from Yemen's most powerful tribe, which defected to the opposition, the Associated Press reports:

quote:
The gunbattles rattled the northern Sana'a neighborhood of al-Hasba, sending families fleeing in panic. Dozens of police vehicles blocked traffic on main streets leading to al-Hasba.

The clashes occurred near the house of Sheik Sadeq al-Ahmar, leader of Yemen's most powerful tribe, Hashid, to which Saleh himself belongs. Al-Ahmar announced that he has joined the popular uprising that began trying to oust Saleh in March.

Monday's clashes came one day after new turmoil swept across the capital as Saleh refused again to sign an agreement calling for him to step down in 30 days.

quote:

More on reports of the gun battle in Yemen comes from the Guardian's Tom Finn:

quote:
A heavy gun battle has been raging in Sana'a this afternoon between Saleh's security forces and tribesmen loyal to Sheikh Sadeq al-Ahmar (a prominent tribal leader who has defected to the opposition) prompting fears that this may spark a wider conflict between the hashid tribe and Saleh's troops.

I am hearing that at least seven soldiers were killed in the clashes and a nearby building was set on fire, families have been fleeing the area in panic.

The roads around there are all blocked.

quote:

Yemeni journalist Khaled al-Hammadi tweets:

quote:
1 #Yemen journalist injured at Saba news agency n #Sana'a where gunfire is taking place b/w govt forces & guards of Alahmar tribal leader

If he ends up hanging from a lamp post it'll be all his own doing.

[edit]

quote:

Another Yemeni journalist, Nasser Arrabyee, tweets:

quote:
Tribesmen of Sadeq and Hamid Al Ahmar started to storm the government buildings nearby his Palace,

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 15:12 on May 23, 2011

# ? May 23, 2011 15:00

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

A horrible story from the BBC:

quote:

Was there a systematic campaign of rape by forces loyal to Libyan leader Colonel Muammar Gaddafi during the battle for Misrata?

Two young prisoners in a detention centre in the city tell me the answer is almost certainly "yes", and that they took part in the gang-rape of four women.

The men, aged 17 and 21, are sitting on a sofa - heads bowed - in the same filthy, bloodstained army fatigues they were captured in two weeks ago.

They are obviously nervous, but speak clearly.

The authorities in this rebel-held city were reluctant to let us interview them, but finally agreed on condition we do not reveal the soldiers' names.

Before I go any further, let me acknowledge that it is clearly in the rebels' interest to portray Col Gaddafi's forces in the worst possible light.

It is also possible that the soldiers were coerced into telling us lies.

And there is a big difference between individual acts of violence committed during wartime and a systematic campaign to target civilians.

My impression was that the men were telling the truth and that - although there are credible stories of abuse of pro-Gaddafi troops by rebel forces - the conditions and atmosphere at the prison, which I have visited before, appeared benign.

Here, in their own words, then is what they told me, through a reliable interpreter.

The 17-year-old did most of the talking and his colleague occasionally nodded or added a few sentences. I've added some details in parenthesis.

"They brought us in a group of 400 people to Misrata, saying the city is under attack from Algerian and Egyptian mercenaries and that we have come here to liberate Misrata. They divided us into groups and we went our separate ways.

"First we knocked at a door and nobody opened so we broke the door and entered the house.

"The mother was screaming and when we pointed the gun at her, she stopped screaming.

"Then we tied up the mother and father and their boys [three of them] by their feet and hands. Then we shot every one of them in the leg.

"Then the officers took the girls upstairs, and we were told to go on the roof [to keep guard] until the officers had finished the rape and then we were told to rape the girls too.

"We felt scared, but when we refused to rape, they started to beat us.

"There were four girls aged between about 20 and 24.

"They were conscious [during the rapes]. I raped one.

"The girls said nothing. They were tired and they were in bad shape because there were 20 officers before us.

"It happened in the morning, and lasted about an hour and a half.

"The officers brought in a music system and listened to pop music, and smoked and danced during the rapes.

"I'm not happy with what I did but I don't feel nervous or frightened now, and I want to emphasise that the officers forced us to rape.

"They told us that if you rape any girls, we will give you money and we got 10 dinars [$8, �5] each afterwards.

"This was my first time to have sex. I have four sisters at home."

I asked the men if they knew of other instances of rape, and whether it happened often.

"I think it happened so many times. Most of the people who raped families here were from the special forces and we heard on the radio [their military radio system] that there were about 50 families that experienced rape."

The rebel authorities in Misrata say they believe there may be hundreds of victims, but so far no-one has made an official complaint.

There are many possible reasons for this.

The fighting in the city has only just ended, and many families have been displaced while others are missing.

The city's phone network is down and communications are slow.

The number of rapes may be far smaller than officials are suggesting.

But perhaps the most significant factor is the extremely conservative culture in Libya - and in Misrata in particular - which regards rape as a matter of profound shame for an entire family, and not something to be mentioned in public.

"This is very sensitive - a delicate matter," says Dr Ismael Fortia, an obstetrician living in Misrata, who is now on a medical committee that has been set up to investigate the rape allegations and to try to help any victims.

"No victims have come forward, but we hope after some psychological [help] they'll come and talk to us."

Dr Fortia believes that the final figure will probably run into the hundreds.

"I think this is a big problem - much bigger than we think. People [in Misrata] feel deep pain, and depression. This has affected us much more than anything else during the fighting."

Dr Fortia confirmed two stories I had heard elsewhere in the city from a number of sources.

The first is that some rebel fighters have now offered to marry the rape victims, "to spare their families from shame".

The second is that there are a number of "rape videos", recorded by Col Gaddafi's soldiers on their mobile phones, which are now circulating in Misrata.

I have confirmed the existence of at least one, which was seen by a trusted colleague.

Hopefully those rape videos will be used to convict the soldiers involved with those rapes, at least some of the victims will get justice.

In Yemen news:

quote:

Machine guns have been fired, grenades thrown and several people have been wounded in the clashes in Yemen, AFP reports.

There is a lot of worrying talk of civil war on Twitter.

Unconfirmed reports on Twitter suggest members of the opposition JMP were in the house of tribal leader Ahmar when the clashes erupted.

Eyewitnesses say the Yemeni airways building is on fire.

The Guardian's Tom Finn tweets that Ahmar's tribe appear to be targeting the interior ministry.

Seems like things are escalating rapidly in Yemen.

# ? May 23, 2011 15:35

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Few Yemen tweets as it's all kicking off there:

quote:

@tomfinn2: can see black smoke rising from the Ministry of Interior in Sana'a

quote:

@yemen_updates: More security and army troops are sent to surround Sheikh Al-Ahmar, whose armed tribesmen arrive in Sana� from Hashid tribe

quote:

tomfinn2: reports of fresh clashes outside the interior ministry in Sana'a, seems as if the Ahmar tribes are trying to overrun it

quote:

YusraAlA: Attempt to break into the house of Sheikh Al-Ahmar from eatern side (Ministry of Interior) and southern side (Sheba News Agency)

quote:

YusraAlA: Witnesses: More than 10 armed cars belonging to the regime arrived shortly to Yaslih and is going to #Sanaa

It's getting very ugly very quickly.

# ? May 23, 2011 15:50

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Few more updates from Yemen:

quote:

YusraAlA: MP: Witness: Large numbers of Ministry of Interior guards are withdrawing; tribes gunmen few meters away from Ministry

quote:

YusraAlA: Heavy clashes between army and protesters near Badr Camp in Khormaksar

quote:

YusraAlA: Mareb Press: Guards of Permanent Committee of GCP are escaping

quote:

KhaledHammadi: US embassy n #Yemen shutdown after thugs loyal to president #Saleh closed roads lead to the embassy

quote:

imothanaYemen: Alarabiya reporter : " Heavy gunfire and fierce clashes are still continuous and expanding"

quote:

YusraAlA: 2powerful explosions in Hasaba, witnesses confrim smoke from Ministry of Commerce and Indusrty &Al-Saida Travel Agency

quote:

Mabusharkh: Ma'areb tribe in #Yemen took over a government building in Sana'aa

# ? May 23, 2011 16:07

Taerkar: Dec 7, 2002; kind of into it, really

Definitely sounds like Yemen is moving into the endgame scenario, or at least the end of this phase. Next, of course, will be who is in charge afterwards, which could be a full-fledged civil war.

# ? May 23, 2011 16:27

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Yeah, these are tweets from the last 20 minutes, it sounds like things are really kicking off, either Saleh goes or there will be a full on civil war:

quote:

yemen_updates: Eyewitness: Tanks and armored vehicles are reportedly seen heading towards Al-Hasaba neighborhood, where the fighting is ongoing.

quote:

YusraAlA: Arabia: Heavy clashes are still continued&expanding to University side. #Sanaa

quote:

imothanaYemen: Heavy artillery and mortars are used in the clashes ongoing clashes in #Sanaa

quote:

Mabusharkh: Tribes under Sheikh Ahmar took over the ministry of investment in capital of #Yemen and they're now moving towards the ministry of interiors

quote:

YusraAlA: Suhail: #Shabwah tribes condemn the attack on Sheikh Sadiq Al-Ahmar and they assure that the criminals will not escape justice

quote:

KhaledHammadi: Eyewitnesses said at least 13 people were killed & 18 others wounded at ongoing clashes b/w govt forces & Hashed tribesmen in #Sanaa

quote:

YusraAlA: #Shabwah, #Hadramout, Hashid, Bakeel and Asemat Tribes condemn attack on Sheikh Al-Ahmar's house

quote:

Amal_Nasser: Tanks of the rep. guards arrive to secure the ministry of interior and it's surroundings. Clashes are still going on.

quote:

yemen_updates: Gunfire were heard today near the US embassy, after Saleh's loyalists erected tents on embassy street yesterday

quote:

imothanaYemen: A politician once told me: "You know a Civil war started when the #US Embassy in #Sanaa close its doors" . That just happened!

quote:

YusraAlA:‎ Witnesses: Heavy gunfire into Ministry of Interior and approximately 22 dead from help police in the ministry.

quote:

tomfinn2: government official: 2 RPG rockets have hit the ministry of interior

quote:

tomfinn2: government official: "today's actions show the ill intentions of the ahmars who have been bank rolling the opposition movement"

quote:

yemen_updates: Saleh kept his promise to burn down #Yemen. He threatened yesterday of a civil war if JMP didn't show up to sign in palace. He's doing it.

And an update from the Guardian:

quote:

The Yemeni opposition has accused the security forces of trying to "storm" the house of Ahmar and warned of "assaults that aim to drag the country into civil war," the Associated Press reports:

quote:
The spark of the fighting was unclear. Some witnesses said security forces had been setting up roadblocks between al-Ahmar's walled residential compound and the nearby Interior Ministry, and that tribesmen saw it as a provocation.

Tribesmen and security forces battled in the streets surrounding the ministry, trading fire with automatic weapons and rocket-propelled grenades. Smoke was seen rising from the ministry building. Tribal fighters took over buildings belonging the nearby Industry Ministry as well, the Interior Ministry said in a statement.

Hundreds of Hashid fighters were moving in from outside Sanaa to al-Ahmar's house to protect it, a tribal offical said, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation.

A Yemeni journalist was injured by flying shrapnel that hit the nearby headquarters of the state news agency Saba, and dozens of other journalists took refuge in the building's basement, according to the head of the Journalists Syndicate, Marawan Damag. He said the crossfire made it impossible to take the wounded man to the hospital.

# ? May 23, 2011 16:30

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

He's so hosed. Wonder what gave him the idea to attack the head of the most powerful tribe in Yemen.

# ? May 23, 2011 16:35

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Especially when they are clearly well armed, there's reports of more RPGs being fired, and mortars being used. Sounds like they are destroying the government one ministry building at a time.

# ? May 23, 2011 16:37

Ace Oliveira: Dec 27, 2009; "I wonder if there is beer on the sun."

Brown Moses posted:

A horrible story from the BBC:

Hopefully those rape videos will be used to convict the soldiers involved with those rapes, at least some of the victims will get justice.

"See, they beat us if we didn't rape the women, so that makes it ok!"

Are you loving kidding me? They raped the women because they would be beaten if they didn't? Are they trying to loving say that justifies what they did because the officers would beat them if they didn't do it?

I guess I shouldn't be surprised a Dictator's soldiers would do this sort of poo poo, but I am. This is loving awful, goddamn. And those shitbirds filmed it. They were using rape as a weapon, just like the Serbs.

# ? May 23, 2011 16:45

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Well think about it. The negotiated tense situation has been ongoing for months. Assume any sort of dictatorial isolation from the reality of popular support. The opposition obvious hasn't ousted him so he solidifies his supporters, tries to decapitate the opposition and hes left in control... it makes perfect sense if you assume hes miscalculated the relative strength of his position.

# ? May 23, 2011 16:48

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

AJA is apparently reporting that Gaddafi dropped 7000 troops off in Brega, then withdrew any vehicles they could use to pull back such as trucks, so they are pretty much forced to fight or flee in the desert on foot.

# ? May 23, 2011 16:48

Ballz: Dec 16, 2003; it's mario time

Brown Moses posted:

AJA is apparently reporting that Gaddafi dropped 7000 troops off in Brega, then withdrew any vehicles they could use to pull back such as trucks, so they are pretty much forced to fight or flee in the desert on foot.

Or mass surrender.

# ? May 23, 2011 17:00

Namarrgon: Dec 23, 2008; Congratulations on not getting fit in 2011!

Brown Moses posted:

AJA is apparently reporting that Gaddafi dropped 7000 troops off in Brega, then withdrew any vehicles they could use to pull back such as trucks, so they are pretty much forced to fight or flee in the desert on foot.

I see Gaddafi has been reading up on his Art of War.

# ? May 23, 2011 17:08

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

Ballz posted:

Or mass surrender.

Or mass defection.

# ? May 23, 2011 17:11

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

Namarrgon posted:

I see Gaddafi has been reading up on his Art of War.

Clearly Sun Zi didn't account for Ballz and Young Freud here... but their points stand, agreed.

As for BPC Tonnerre ("Thunder," L9014,) it's the sister ship of the Mistral, both being amphibious assault ships (BPC is "projection and command ship," b�timents de projection et de commandement)... the closest US Navy analogues of being the Tarawa- or Wasp-class, so for laymen's purposes think helicopter carriers that could support deploying ground forces.

# ? May 23, 2011 18:30

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Speaking of helicopters and Libya

quote:

Apache helicopters to be sent into Libya by Britain
Britain is to use Apache attack helicopters in an attempt to break the military stalemate in Libya, security sources have told the Guardian.

In a highly significant escalation of the conflict, the Apaches � based on HMS Ocean � will join French helicopters in the operation. They will be deployed to stop Gaddafi forces who are continuing to attack civilians in the port city of Misrata, according to well-placed Whitehall officials.

Apaches are being used in counter�insurgency operations in Afghanistan and can manoeuvre and attack small targets in relatively built-up areas. The decision to deploy the helicopters is a clear recognition that high-level bombing cannot protect civilians who continue to be attacked by rocket and mortar shells.

British officials revealed the plans to deploy the Apaches after France announced it was sending attack helicopters to Libya. Britain and France clearly hope their use, and revealing the intention to use them, will deter pro-Gaddafi forces.

Britain and other Nato countries have insisted they will not deploy troops "on the ground" in Libya � a move that would be strongly opposed by most Nato countries, including the US and by those Arab countries in favour of the air campaign against Gaddafi's forces.

"We are very much behind the intensification of the military campaign and ... so is France," said foreign secretary William Hague who was attending an EU ministerial meeting in Brussels.

"We certainly agree with France, and indeed with all our partners, including all our partners at the EU meeting , that it is necessary to intensify the military, economic and diplomatic pressure on the Gaddafi regime."

France's foreign minister confirmed Paris had dispatched a dozen helicopters to add greater strike force to the campaign against Muammar Gaddafi in Libya.

Speaking in Brussels at the meeting of EU foreign ministers, Alain Juppe said that the 12 Tigre and Gazelle helicopters sent from Toulon on 17 May would enable "us to better adapt our ground attack capacity with more precise means of striking."

"Our strategy is to step up the military pressure in the weeks ahead while pushing at the same time for a political solution," said Juppe.

According to French sources the battleship Tonnerre carrying the helicopters left Toulon last week. The vessel combines the roles of helicopter-carrier, hospital ship, and troops transporter.

Juppe said the helicopters would not be used to disgorge ground forces in Libya and that the decision to send them was fully in line with the UN security council resolution mandating ground attacks.

# ? May 23, 2011 18:51

ukle: Nov 28, 2005

Chortles posted:

Clearly Sun Zi didn't account for Ballz and Young Freud here... but their points stand, agreed.

As for BPC Tonnerre ("Thunder," L9014,) it's the sister ship of the Mistral, both being amphibious assault ships (BPC is "projection and command ship," b�timents de projection et de commandement)... the closest US Navy analogues of being the Tarawa- or Wasp-class, so for laymen's purposes think helicopter carriers that could support deploying ground forces.

Note also the UK is using HMS Ocean, another Helicopter carrier / amphibious assault ship to launch helicopter missions over Libya.

Its unknown how many Apaches Ocean has on board at the moment, but its probably more than Oceans standard 6 (usually 6 Apaches and 12 transport), given they wont need the transport capability.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/23/apache-helicopters-libya-britain

edit: Just beaten like a Gaddafi thug.

ukle fucked around with this message at 18:56 on May 23, 2011

# ? May 23, 2011 18:54

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

Chortles posted:

Clearly Sun Zi didn't account for Ballz and Young Freud here... but their points stand, agreed.

The problem here is that, when Sun Tzu made that suggestion that:

Sun Tzu posted:

At the critical moment, the leader of an army acts like one who has climbed up a height and then kicks away the ladder behind him. He carries his men deep into hostile territory before he shows his hand.

He burns his boats and breaks his cooking-pots; like a shepherd driving a flock of sheep, he drives his men this way and that, and nothing knows whither he is going.

To muster his host and bring it into danger:--this may be termed the business of the general.

Sun recommended the general be amongst his men when entering that critical moment, not being sequestered in a bunker 400 miles away when poo poo goes down.

# ? May 23, 2011 18:56

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

I just have to give you some cred Brown Moses for your updates. You are probably the most in depth and up-to-date source of information about the current ongoings to check up on when I am able to.

# ? May 24, 2011 03:53

TheOmegaWalrus: Feb 3, 2007; by Hand Knit

Besides going straight to the tap of twitter comments, Brown Moses has really done a good job of keeping us informed. Leagues better than American media.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43140642/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/

Seems like NATO's getting in a hurry to end this, preferably through Gadhafi's death.

# ? May 24, 2011 04:44

Paradox Personified: Mar 15, 2010; SoroScrew

Has this been referenced yet? Shabab and others on Twitter inundated the site with tweets about six hours ago, these were among the links:
Tripoli was engaged by a large amount of rockets, and Gaddafi's compound was hit. (Breaking CNN: Smoke seen rising from #Gadhafi compound after airstrikes., and various related tweets.)
NATO was stated to be involved heavily.
https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=154946301239383
"Mon, 23 May, 2011 URGENT APPEAL FOR LIBYA�S WESTERN MOUNTAINS � JABAL NEFUSA"

I do not know the detailed formation of the Libyan Youth Movement, so I don't know the weight of this in those circles. Anyone informed, I'd love to hear your opinions on it.
Excerpts:
"A member of our group on the ground in Yefren, today Monday the 23rd of May at about 23:00 hrs Libyan time has provided us with the following urgent message to communicate to the world:

Armed Gadaffi forces have been positioned in the same locations across Yefren for the past month and twenty days. However, during the last 48 hrs there has been a vast increase in their numbers allowing them toke control of more positions including the small vallies and positions on hills thereby blocking the peoples walkway which they have been depended on to access the very basic necessities "
" Between 7000 and 10,000 civilians are trapped in the towns of Yefren and Algalaa, the remainder appx. 40,000 civilians have been displaced to other towns in the Nafusa Mountains , Tripoli and Tunisia prior to the complete siege (Normally, population of Yefren and Algalaa is estimated to be in the range of 170 000 or more including Awiniya and Riyanah, etc)."
(I have not seen numbers cited a lot recently, unsure about those stats)
Then there's a list, with specific co-ordinates, of 'command centres', scouting camps, and such. Fascinating. Bless them for all their hard work, I can't even imagine...

And a companion link for that url from above: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.158684817530676.43191.133738650025293&saved

Sorry for the low content, I'm not good at commentating.

# ? May 24, 2011 06:29

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

Remember the Saudi woman who drove? well the papers today reported on something that made me so angry.

She made a confession. Soviet Style.

the papers wrote:

" Collapsing in tears, she confessed that her father and brother made her do it. and that other women forced her to drive and make the videos for their own purposes and spread confusion and disorder and to incite protests. she has also called for authorities to widen their questioning to other women."

This is a government fabrication, but it's just how low they'd go that shocks me. I'm not much of a brave person. but when I see a woman humiliated and crying and forced to denounce her ideals and hopes I honestly feel like destroying something. How can they call themselves men after what they did to her?

*EDIT*

Those of you who are curious, these are the official charges raised against her:

"She has been charged with bypassing rules and regulations, driving a car within the city, enabling a journalist to interview her while driving a car, deliberately disseminating the incident to the media, incitement of Saudi women to drive cars, and turning public opinion against the regulations"

Here's also an older video on the topic of driving.

Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 08:48 on May 24, 2011

# ? May 24, 2011 08:07

Namarrgon: Dec 23, 2008; Congratulations on not getting fit in 2011!

Impressive how in one fell sweep they automatically vilify her family. That's decades of special police experience at work there.

# ? May 24, 2011 08:19

Warthog: Mar 8, 2004; Ferkelwämser extraordinaire

Ace Oliveira posted:

"See, they beat us if we didn't rape the women, so that makes it ok!"

Are you loving kidding me? They raped the women because they would be beaten if they didn't? Are they trying to loving say that justifies what they did because the officers would beat them if they didn't do it?

I guess I shouldn't be surprised a Dictator's soldiers would do this sort of poo poo, but I am. This is loving awful, goddamn. And those shitbirds filmed it. They were using rape as a weapon, just like the Serbs.

I don't want to legitimize it in any way but ...everybody rapes in war...

# ? May 24, 2011 08:56

Pajser: Jan 28, 2006

Namarrgon posted:

Impressive how in one fell sweep they automatically vilify her family. That's decades of special police experience at work there.

Can we take some comfort, that this poo poo is not going to last forever? Right?
:smith:

For fucks sake, couldn't they have just let her drive a couple of blocks and not make a big deal out of it?

# ? May 24, 2011 09:14

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Live blogs May 24th
LibyaFeb17.com
Feb17.info
AJE

War

quote:

At least 12 large explosions were heard in Tripoli very early on Tuesday morning and a column of smoke was seen rising from Gaddafi�s compound. Reuters correspondent Joseph Logan said he heard planes overhead and at least a dozen very loud blasts.

quote:

At least three people have been killed and more than 150 people wounded as NATO warplanes hit the Libyan capital Tripoli, officials have said.

Government spokesman Ibrahim Moussa told reporter that NATO had carried out �between 12 and 18 raids on a barracks of the people�s guard�, volunteer units who back up the army.

�The barracks was empty. Most of the victims were civilians living nearby,� Moussa added.

An AFP journalist also said the raids lasting more than half an hour began at around 1am (2300 GMT on Monday) when powerful blasts were heard in the sector around Muammar Gaddafi�s residence in the neighbourhood of Bab al-Aziziya.

quote:

French officials confirm that France and Britain will send attack helicopters to Libya in the latest effort to ramp up NATO's targeting power against Muammar Gaddafi's forces.

Aid

quote:

The Red Cross is calling on its donors to provide an additional $53 million to help the victims of the conflict in Libya. The ICRC expects over 850,000 people affected by the Libyan conflict to have benefited from its assistance by the end of 2011. Since the crisis started, the ICRC has provided basic supplies and services such as food, water and medical care to more than 500,000 people inside Libya and in neighbouring countries. The organization has helped around 60,000 people re-establish contact with their family members, visited over 400 detainees, evacuated some 2,500 stranded foreign nationals and Libyan civilians from Misrata and started clearing dangerous unexploded devices in Ajdabiya. In addition, the ICRC has repeatedly urged all sides to respect their obligations under international humanitarian law.

Diplomacy

quote:

Libya�s rebels have accepted an invitation to open a representative office in Washington, top United States official Jeffrey Feltman has said.

�I delivered a formal invitation to the council for the opening of a representation in Washington,� Feltman told a news conference, referring to the rebels� National Transitional Council (NTC).

�We are happy they accepted it,� he added.

Feltman, the US assistant secretary of state for Near Eastern Affairs, is in the eastern city of Benghazi for talks with the rebel leadership during a three-day visit.

I'd recommend following @NicRobertsonCNN who is currently located in the Nafusa region, especially Zintan, and @bencnn who is located in Misrata, and reporting that it's very quiet at the moment.

Paradox Personified posted:

I do not know the detailed formation of the Libyan Youth Movement, so I don't know the weight of this in those circles. Anyone informed, I'd love to hear your opinions on it.
Excerpts:
"A member of our group on the ground in Yefren, today Monday the 23rd of May at about 23:00 hrs Libyan time has provided us with the following urgent message to communicate to the world:

Armed Gadaffi forces have been positioned in the same locations across Yefren for the past month and twenty days. However, during the last 48 hrs there has been a vast increase in their numbers allowing them toke control of more positions including the small vallies and positions on hills thereby blocking the peoples walkway which they have been depended on to access the very basic necessities "
" Between 7000 and 10,000 civilians are trapped in the towns of Yefren and Algalaa, the remainder appx. 40,000 civilians have been displaced to other towns in the Nafusa Mountains , Tripoli and Tunisia prior to the complete siege (Normally, population of Yefren and Algalaa is estimated to be in the range of 170 000 or more including Awiniya and Riyanah, etc)."
(I have not seen numbers cited a lot recently, unsure about those stats)
Then there's a list, with specific co-ordinates, of 'command centres', scouting camps, and such. Fascinating. Bless them for all their hard work, I can't even imagine...

And a companion link for that url from above: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.158684817530676.43191.133738650025293&saved

Sorry for the low content, I'm not good at commentating.

There's been an ongoing seige of that area by Gaddafi forces for a long time, and it seems as if he's committing more troops to that area. It seems like part of Gaddafi's plan is to capture the border crossing with Tunisia, but so far his attempts have failed, and it allows Libyan civilians to escape to Tunisia, and for supplies to be transported into Libya to support the rebels.

The arrival of attack helicopters is going to be very significant, and hopefully they'll be used to support the rebels when they advance on Sirte from Misrata and Ajdabiya. Currently it seems both groups of rebels have been told to halt their advance towards Sirte, probably because NATO were waiting to move their helicopters into position.

To the west the rebels may have to secure Nanur airport, which is 20km to the west of their current position, and could possibly be used as a base by Gaddafi's forces if they try to stop the rebel advance. However, it's in the middle of nowhere, and NATO shouldn't have any problems destroying any vehicles left out in the open, especially with helicopters.
After that it looks like they'd need to capture the tiny towns of Abu Quaryn and Qayrat Al Qaddahiyah, and then they'll control the main coastal road to Sirte.
From there they can continue south and capture the second main road to Sirte, or head directly east along the coastal roads to reach Sirte. Either way there's barely any built up areas, and most of those are tiny and away from the main roads, and generally the terrain appears to be desert. Exactly where you don't want to be if you are being bombed by NATO aircraft, so those helicopters will be extremely effective at supporting the rebel advance, especially as it'll solve the previously mentioned problems of NATO aircraft identifying targets when the front lines are rapidly shifting.

In the East it's been reported by Al Jazeera and other sources that the rebels have already started to build up their forces outside of Brega, which would suggest to me they are preparing for an attack, almost certaintly supported by NATO helicopters. I think the main thing that'll slow the rebel advance are landmines that have almost certaintly been laid all over the route to Sirte, but once they get past Brega and Ras Lanuf they'll be very hard to stop. They are much better trained and equiped then they were during their earlier failed advance on Sirte, and NATO helicopters will provide essential support during the advance.

# ? May 24, 2011 10:41

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# ? May 13, 2024 20:51

Kenning: Jan 11, 2009; I really want to post goatse. Instead I only have these🍄.

Pajser posted:

Can we take some comfort, that this poo poo is not going to last forever? Right?

For fucks sake, couldn't they have just let her drive a couple of blocks and not make a big deal out of it?

That would have deeply undermined the absolutist stance the Saudi state requires in order to ensure an acquiescent populace. They don't have religious police in Saudi to ensure that everybody stays moral, they have religious police to create a situation of learned helplessness among the population so that their fundamentally very weak state can continue to extract mineral wealth and win foreign aid to the benefit of the Saudi royal family. They pair that with the occasional fistful of cash thrown at average Saudis as a small carrot to go along with their huge stick.

The Saudi government is the worst, and I'm really sorry to hear about that poo poo, Al-Saqr.

# ? May 24, 2011 11:16

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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